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raistlin807
2007-04-13, 07:10 PM
Okay, this a general brainstorming post to see what kind of builds would work the best. I don't have the Eberron books at my disposal at the moment, so I thow myself on your knowledge and experience. Would a shifter barb do more damage than a normal base race with a greatsword? What kind of hitpoints are we looking at? If you took levels in druid or bear warrior would the bounses from shifting+rage stack with wild shape?

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-04-13, 07:56 PM
I have a shifter barbarian in my evil campaign, and he is INSANE with damage. I don't know the exact build, but I know he has the feat that gives him an extra shifter trait (sans the ability boost associated with it) so he has both claws and a bite, levels in warshaper to enhance his damage, the shifter feat that boosts claw and bite damage while shifting and raging simultaneously, a feat that has his bite do con damage and a cloak of permenant enlarge person. Though he's about as bright as a wet match, he's reeeaaally tough.

Zincorium
2007-04-13, 08:07 PM
Shifters are one of those things which start off about the same potential as most other characters, but the difference is if you're willing to sink enough resources into improving shifting, you will be nigh unstoppable.

Heck, shifter ranger 9 (with the fast healing feature)/reachrunner 5/weretouched master (bear)/warshaper 1 with some feats spent on shifting will completely maim most non-ToB meleers. And that requires no real game knowledge to do well.

raistlin807
2007-04-13, 08:53 PM
Good, good this is golden. Could you reccomend any feats or abilities (specifics please) so I can find them easier? I don't have any of the books with me. Also, how exactly do the shifter powers/shiftings work? Which ones add up and mesh with class features the best for sheer shock and awe damage? How does the shufter/barb do when taking damage? Thanks again for the insight!

Zincorium
2007-04-13, 09:09 PM
Alright, basic rundown of what I think:

Shifter Savagery is a good feat in and of itself, but it's a stand alone thing, as none of it's effects stack with similar ones. Improved natural attack and the like will do almost nothing to help.

Reachrunner, from races of eberron, grants a pounce ability when your opponent is flatfooted. This is an awesome ability, but the tiger version of weretouched master grants a better version of it, in exchange for a few losses from the other really good form, bear.

The 9th level ranger substitution level, also in races of eberron, has multiple effects, my favorite being fast healing of a not insignificant amount (goes off of shifter feats). Look into it if ranger is an option.


Anyway, if barbarian is your focus, then add in weretouched master (tiger) for the full five levels and four levels of warshaper (the fifth does you no good) from complete warrior. Yes, your BAB will suffer to the tune of about three points, but since natural weapons don't get iterative attacks, the tradeoff is worth it in this case. Also, you can wield weapons in the hybrid form of weretouched master, so that may be a better option depending on your build.

Specifically for natural weapons on this, pick longtooth as either your starting or a bonus shifter trait to get bite attack, as weretouched master will give you claws. Shifter Savagery will bump them up damage wise, so the stacking damage increase of weretouched master and the razorclaw trait will get overridden. Improved natural attack is kind of wasted.

Really, the only non-shifter feats you should go for are raging luck and power attack. Free action points are just too good to pass up.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-13, 09:13 PM
Keep in mind that Weretouched Master was brutally beaten with the nerf bat in errata.

Zincorium
2007-04-13, 09:21 PM
Keep in mind that Weretouched Master was brutally beaten with the nerf bat in errata.

I was unaware of any errata on it, I'll go check up and that may well negate or reverse much of my advice.

Edit: Nope, still a good prc, although certainly not as good as it was. Tiger is actually much better compared to bear than it was before.

raistlin807
2007-04-13, 09:47 PM
What the hell is errata?

Hyrael
2007-04-13, 09:48 PM
taking a few levels in Scout would allow you to add skirmish damage (while still maintaining a Decent HD, as opposed to rogue d6) to those multiple natural attacks, if you are willing to invest in mobility-style feats. It would allow you to also get some of those m4d 5k1llz that you loose out on with pure barbarian with a int penalty.

Zincorium
2007-04-14, 02:34 AM
What the hell is errata?

WotC's solution to their problem of not having competent editors. Although to be fair, RPGs have a strong tendency towards poor editing in the first place.

What happens is, they write the book and then send it out without playtesting ideas or turning it over to a select portion of the CharOp boards on their very own forums, which would be incredibly easy.

It contains stuff that doesn't work well and needs fixing.

They place a document on their website with the fixes and then don't make it clear that they have errata on any particular book, because they're embarrassed.

PinkysBrain
2007-04-14, 05:49 AM
The biggest problem is erratas only ever fix half of the brokenly overpowered stuff, and they always fixate on non casters while doing so, and 0% of the brokenly underpowered stuff (ie. waste of paper). The process simply doesn't work.

As for the OP, that depends on so many factors. Raistlin, tell me what books you have to work with and I can give you some examples of shifter/non-shifter martial characters.

Hyrael, weretouched master/scouts work okay ... but you do more damage by simply focusing on attack bonus and leap attack + shocktrooper (and you don't have to worry about crit immunity either).

raistlin807
2007-04-14, 11:41 AM
Okay, I'm going to reveal my ignorance again but how exactly does the shock trooper feat do you ANY good? It didn't look that useful at first glance.

ZekeArgo
2007-04-14, 11:46 AM
Okay, I'm going to reveal my ignorance again but how exactly does the shock trooper feat do you ANY good? It didn't look that useful at first glance.

Um... because it allows you to smack your opponents with massive damage without lowering your BaB? Power Attack + Leap Attack + Shock Trooper is pretty much *the* feat combo for a charging PC.

Then add in fun stuff like rhino hide armor and valorous lances and well, things get very interesting.

Arbitrarity
2007-04-14, 11:46 AM
Heedless charge. Attack on charge, almost guarenteed hit, relatively, full PA.

Pounce makes it hurt.

raistlin807
2007-04-14, 11:57 AM
Aaaah. I see. Now what is this Ranger substitution level you all speak of? Also is Pounce a feat? If so, where can I find it? And would the charge bonus be applicable to natural attacks or would I need a spear or something? What weapon combos do you suggest? I usually go for Barb+Greatsword for the most damage I can do. How many attacks is a shifter looking at if he goes by the path of natural attacks? Would it be worth it, damage wise?

Zincorium
2007-04-14, 05:10 PM
Aaaah. I see. Now what is this Ranger substitution level you all speak of? Also is Pounce a feat? If so, where can I find it? And would the charge bonus be applicable to natural attacks or would I need a spear or something? What weapon combos do you suggest? I usually go for Barb+Greatsword for the most damage I can do. How many attacks is a shifter looking at if he goes by the path of natural attacks? Would it be worth it, damage wise?

Racial substitution level for shifters = races of eberron, right after the section with all the feats. The druid one is also pretty nifty.

Pounce isn't a feat unless you're a catfolk, however, the reachrunner and the tiger version of weretouched master provide a version of it as a class ability while shifted.

If by 'charge bonus' you mean the +2 to hit, yes. You can also power attack, at 1 handed weapon effectiveness, on all your attacks. They all get the penalty, but they all get the damage. It's not as good as two handed power attacking, but since you have multiple attacks at a high bonus it has it's own merits.

If you're using a weapon, a greatsword is solid in terms of damage dealing, and as it's two handed you'll do well with power attack. It's also cheaper to enchant than an amulet of mighty fists (which is how you get an enhancement bonus to your claws + fangs).

Anyway, basic damage comparison at 20th level.


Lower levels they're going to follow a pretty similiar trend. Not going by probabilities of hitting here, and it's assuming you take Shifter Savagery and are raging/shifting, which you'd do for fighting with a greatsword as well. Multi-attack would decrease the penalty on the bite to -2, so it might be worth it if you can squeeze a spare feat out of the build. The plus 5 on natural attacks is the every four character levels bit that's in the description of shifter traits. 'Magic' is any enhancement or bonus damage applicable.

Greatsword + bite as secondary
Main and iterative, graduating in -5 increments from full:
2d6 + 1.5xstr + magic + power attack x2
Secondary natural, at -5:
2d6 + str/2 + magic + power attack

2 claws + bite as secondary
Primary natural attack, claws, two at full:
1d8 + 5 + str + magic + power attack
Secondary natural, bite, at -5:
2d6 + 5 + str/2 + magic + power attack


It's a personal decision, both are valid. Mainly it will depend on whether you see the iterative attacks past -5, which you won't be getting until later levels anyway, are likely to hit, and what kind of magical equipment is available.