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View Full Version : Musing about a Caster Level homebrew rule



Tokiko Mima
2007-04-13, 07:18 PM
I've been considering how bonuses work in d20, and it occurs to me that while there is a Base attack bonus progression for melee attacks, three saving throw progressions, and even progressions for feats like Stunning Fist, Caster level doesn't act like any of them.

Most progressions give you partial credit at least for levels where you didn't gain any numeric increase in power. For example, every other level of Sorcerer does get an increase to BAB, even if half the time it doesn't. Caster level on the other hand, doesn't advance at all if you aren't in a level that provides a bonus. You can take all the Fighter levels you want, it won't make you a better Wizard; however your Wizard levels are worth half Fighter credit as far as Base attack bonus goes.

So here's my rule: Any base class level where you didn't recieve a +1 caster level/spells per day, counts as a half credit as far as caster level and spells/day goes for ALL your casting classes. So for example a Cleric 6/Wizard 10/Fighter 4 would cast spells as 8th level Cleric and an 12th level Wizard.

For PrCs, it would depend on the power of the PrC, but probably around 1 caster level for every three Non-caster levels. I'm flexible on this. I also think that no PrC should ever have a full caster progression, unless that's the only benefit it had. But that's another matter.

Of course you wouldn't get any of the other class features. A Fighter 6/Wizard 7 would cast as a 10th level Wizard, but wouldn't get the bonus Metamagic Feat or familiar abilities granted a 'pure' 10th level wizard.

Paladins and Rangers and other Hybrid casters would need a slight overhaul. The easiest way would be to increase their spell lists to cover up to 6th level spells, and give them a +1 spell level every 3 levels after level 4. You could do something similar with Bards.

I feel this system has the benefit of making focused casters, like level 20 pure Wizards still have a distinct advantage (they get their best spells first), while not making their magic literally uncounter/dispel/removeable except by identical casters close to that same level.

It's not perfect, I know. There needs to be an advantage for a pure melee without any casting abilities; I'll work on that next. Do you think this would work, or does it mess up something I'm not considering in the framework of d20? Is it too complicated?

Kyace
2007-04-14, 12:10 AM
So, do half casters like pallies and rangers gain caster levers at 3/4 level, like the cleric BAB? Does this increase in caster level cause them to gain new spells per day?

If you want this to help noncasters, make non-typed spellcaster levels improve your use magical device or something. Thus, while a level 20 rogue can't cast, they would be very mean with a wand. Or maybe grant spell resistance or something (like sr 5 + 2* untyped spellcaster levels).

Quellian-dyrae
2007-04-14, 01:40 AM
I think it's too easily exploitable. Take a level in wizard and cleric, and then just advance in whatever you actually planned to be. In the end, it's just like having gone Wiz10/Clr10, but you have eighteen levels of superior stats and/or special abilities to add to a credible array of spells.

There's a similar rule in Unearthed Arcana, but it only applies to caster level, not actual spellcasting ability (I think it also works for only one class). This may be a better option; a Wiz1/Ftr19 can throw five magic missiles, but magic missile is still its most powerful spell and it can still only throw a couple a day at best.

jlousivy
2007-04-14, 02:00 AM
I agree, too easily exploitable, at the very least i'd say only apply it to a single casting class.
I don't see it as two sorcerer levels = fighter level.
The sorcerer while primarily dealing in magic, does do some combat such as rays/touches or if you are low enough level, crossbow.
A fighter-- the most he ever really uses is his +2 orc bane longsword, so it makes sense not to improve spellcasting ability

Tokiko Mima
2007-04-14, 11:24 AM
Well, the point is that having 10 wizard and 10 cleric levels (up to 5th level spells: No heal) isn't even a quarter of the power of a 20th level wizard (Who has Time Stop, Dominate Monster, Shapechange and Gate as well as plenty of 6th and up spells). But it does give an 18 Fighter the ability to seriously challenge a wizard of that level, and the spells to burn to do so.

The intent of my rule is to bring everyone up to Batman's (20 Wizards) approximate power level. A fight between an 18th level Fighter/1 Cleric/1 Wizard and a 20 Wizard would be a lot more even if the Fighter cast all spells at 10th level instead of first level.

It has a much lesser effect at lower levels, but this is intentional because at lower levels Wizards and Fighters are pretty well balanced.

Tokiko Mima
2007-04-14, 11:39 AM
I don't see it as two sorcerer levels = fighter level.
The sorcerer while primarily dealing in magic, does do some combat such as rays/touches or if you are low enough level, crossbow.
A fighter-- the most he ever really uses is his +2 orc bane longsword, so it makes sense not to improve spellcasting ability

I disagree. It makes sense to us in our world to see fighters as not involving magic in combat. After all, there were plenty of fighters through our history that didn't concern themselves with magic because magic doesn't exist.

But you must take the perspective of a person who has lived their life in a world where magic is regularly fielded in combat (Enough to have specific named spells become common knowledge.) It would be absurd to assume that a Fighter of that universe would not learn a few spells or the basics of magic, just so as not to be instantly slain by any passing sorcerer.

It makes even more sense for magic ability to proceed apace with combat ability rather than lag behind, totally neglected. I know the reason that d20 has caster continue to improve BAB is really so they can make touch attacks for spells. However, BAB is just as applicable to their ability to use a dagger as it is for spellcraft should they choose to use a dagger instead. Why isn't the reverse true?

As far as 2 sorcerer levels = 1 Fighter level, that's how BAB works. Ignoreing feats, proficiencies, gear and spells, two NPCs with the same BAB have the same odds to hit each other in combat. So if a Sorcerer and a Fighter have the same BAB, they have the same ability to hit each in combat. A sorcerer just needs to be twice the level of the fighter in order to equal him. A fighter under the current system could be 100 levels and will never outdo the spell casting power of the lowest level sorcerer.

Magnor Criol
2007-04-14, 11:58 AM
Because there's a difference, I think, in what it represented by the BAB increasing and the caster level increasing.

BAB represents a physical ability that wold natrually increase no matter what, and increase faster with training. Caster level represents something that only increases with training.

The study of how to cast magic, and the training and practice required to increase your skill in a way that's represented by the 'caster level' increase, takes focus. It's an art form, a discipline, something not gained normally - you don't just get older and suddenly you can cast spells better, you have to train with them.

The BAB, however, seems to me that it is something that naturally increases. As a character gets older and more experienced, he's got better control of his actions, he knows better how to aim things and how to perform the various actions represented by the BAB. It's a physical things that no matter what you're doing, it will increase just naturally.

A fighter levelling up, gaining proficiency with his arms and combat, would definitely increase his BAB faster than this natural progression, hence the high BAB progression; but a wizard or sorc, focusing on magic not arms, would only have this natural progression, but it'd still be a progression. So it makes sense that both have a BAB increase.

A fighter wouldn't, however, really have the time and focus for the training needed to increase your proficiency with spells. If he did, he wouldn't have time for martial training, and it wouldn't be represented by a level up in fighter but instead some arcane class. Thus, there's only a caster level increase for caster training, and BAB all the time.

I understand the idea that someone who took arcane classes earlier and then went to martial classes would still be studying magic, and eventually probably increase their caster level regardless; but I don't think a 1/2 level thing is appropriate, that's too much.


-E- Here's a thought. What if the non-caster levels taken between two caster levels counted for 1/2 (or some other ratio) caster level, but only when you next took a caster level?

Example. Say a character takes three levels in sorcerer, then they go to fighter for six more levels. So right now they have three caster levels. If, after that, if they took another sorc level, then all the levels taken between the current spellcaster level and the last one, in this case six, counted for 1/2 caster level, giving them a caster level of 7 (4 sorc levels + (6 * 1/2 non-caster levels)?

That way, they're represented as still studying magic if they've done so sometime before. They're still keeping their thoughts on it even when they're not specifically training in it. And then, when they do go back to it, that time where they weren't focusing on it but were still practicing a little counted for half each.

Matthew
2007-04-15, 02:36 PM
I think that once you start down this road, you are going to find yourself shifting a great many aspects of D&D. Tying Base Attack Bonus, Skill Ranks, Saves and Caster Levels into one system is the easiest way to handle things, in my experience.