World Largest Dungeon Character Creation Help

[willowsgrave]

Hello, my name is Carl. We are going to play a weekend binge session with all new characters. I am a Novice at character creations. The only class/race i played is a Human Monk. I am trying to optimize for the world largest dungeon.
Here are the requirements: My rolled stats are 18,18,16,16,15,13
Starting lvl: 15
Starting Gold: 250k gp
Max % per Item is 40% (the dm does allow items cost reductions due to specialized to class, skill, race)

"PS: If we do WLD, make characters level 15, with 250K starting gold, no more than 40% in one item. But
be prepared for a grindfest, I won't pull any stops, and there won't be anywhere for replenishing things.
You'll have starting gear, and whatever you find only. No Shops, healers, access to things you don't
already have (that is how the entire dungeon is set up by design)" --DM

[atemu1234]

Step 1: Do not play a monk.

[Jurai]

What sources does your DM allow? I could build you a skillmonkey supreme. I could build you the ultimate specialist. I can build anything, but I need to know what Legos are in my box, so to speak.

[Rubik]

First of all, what sources are available, what kind of character would you like to play, and what is everyone else playing? What's the optimization level the group is comfortable with, and how complex of a character are you willing to go in for?

JSYK, a druid would kick absolute arse in the WLD, despite what the book itself says about how useless druids are there. Pretty much any tier 1 or tier 2 character would work well, though most any character class would do well, especially since you're going in at high level and fully geared.

Just make sure you're geared up for a potential grindfest -- more than 4 encounters per day. That shouldn't be difficult at level 15, though you ought to ensure that your gear is everything you want.

You also might consider telling everyone in the group to take the Ancestral Relic feat and split the cost of a portable consecrated altar and a few dozen wands of Lesser Vigor for healing. Some at-will healing items might be nice, too (such as a psychoactive skin of proteus that the group can pass around).

Also make sure that any extradimensional spaces actually work while in the dungeon. Talk to your DM about it.

[willowsgrave]

Step 1: Do not play a monk.

Our Normal campaign I am a human/half-iron golem with some interesting gear. I do have to agree now, but I am not a great optimizer or metagamer.

[willowsgrave]

DM is allowing pretty much anything SRC with RAW. I suggested a gestalt character and he responses was it a one off dungeon crawl no restrictions.

[Jurai]

Does the rest of the table know about this?

[Rubik]

DM is allowing pretty much anything SRC with RAW. I suggested a gestalt character and he responses was it a one off dungeon crawl no restrictions.So, is it a gestalt game, or is it not? And are there other players involved?

[ZamielVanWeber]

I am going to agree with Rubik and highly recommend either druid or (if not gestalt) Arcane Heirophant. An animal companion is great and you are high enough to grab some fun ones, such as dire tortoise, and the wildshape adds a lot of combat prowess. Throw in your solid spell selection and you have a beastly character (especially with those excellent rolls).

[willowsgrave]

So, is it a gestalt game, or is it not? And are there other players involved?

It is anything to survive game lol. I do not know any other players characters yet. we are taking a break from our normal campaign to go to the lake house and do a dungeon crawl. We are having 4 to 7 players.

[sakuuya]

If you want to do gestalt, make sure all the other players are also aware of that option so no one is blindsided when your character is significantly more powerful than usual.

[willowsgrave]

If you want to do gestalt, make sure all the other players are also aware of that option so no one is blindsided when your character is significantly more powerful than usual.

Our whole conversation is posted in our D&D Facebook Page that everyone has access to and they was tagged to that particular conversation. SO I am assuming they know.

[Rubik]

It is anything to survive game lol.That...doesn't actually answer my gestalt question. At all.

But even if it's not gestalt, if you do go in for a druid, you'll be like three classes all gestalted together. An excellent chassis (better than most gestalted chassis, honestly), with an animal companion (worth about as much as a fighter would be), wild shape and a bunch of useful class abilities (worth about as much as a fighter and rogue would be), and spellcasting (worth about as much as or more than a dread necromancer, warmage, or beguiler would be)...

Yeah.

But if you want something considerably simpler and lower-op (but a lot less powerful), how about a Dragonborn warforged dragonfire adept with Entangling Breath? It's really hard to screw that one up, so long as your Con is decent.

[willowsgrave]

That...doesn't actually answer my gestalt question. At all.

But even if it's not gestalt, if you do go in for a druid, you'll be like three classes all gestalted together. An excellent chassis (better than most gestalted chassis, honestly), with an animal companion (worth about as much as a fighter would be), wild shape and a bunch of useful class abilities (worth about as much as a fighter and rogue would be), and spellcasting (worth about as much as or more than a dread necromancer, warmage, or beguiler would be)...

Yeah.

But if you want something considerably simpler and lower-op (but a lot less powerful), how about a Dragonborn warforged dragonfire adept with Entangling Breath? It's really hard to screw that one up, so long as your Con is decent.

The DM said this after I suggested gestalt: "Nah, no limits on a one off" --DM

[Rubik]

The DM said this after I suggested gestalt: "Nah,So, no gestalt.


no limits on a one off" --DM...yes gestalt?

Okay, never mind. You don't want to answer, so I don't care anymore.

[willowsgrave]

So, no gestalt.

...yes gestalt?

Okay, never mind. You don't want to answer, so I don't care anymore.

Sorry I am at work and it takes a second to reply, the dm as not replied to a direct question.

[willowsgrave]

Either way on the answer of the gestalt goes i am assume a druid is the way to go. I am going to take some time to explore that.

[Rubik]

Either way on the answer of the gestalt goes i am assume a druid is the way to go. I am going to take some time to explore that.

Okay, so "I don't know yet."

Thanks.

If gestalt IS the way it's going, make sure you pair a passive class with a lot of abilities that don't require separate actions to initiate (such as monk) with an active class with a lot of abilities that do require actions (such as druid). Of course, you could also do something like druid//totemist, druid//rogue, or (one of the rare cases where an active class goes really well with other active classes) druid//psychic warrior or psion.

Or even split the difference with druid//rogue 1/totemist 2/monk 2/psychic warrior or psion, using the Tashalatora feat to progress your monk abilities with your psionic class, and taking psionic powers to enhance your wild shape forms and action economy.

Of course, that's a lot more high-op than you probably want, but it's an option.

[willowsgrave]

Okay, so "I don't know yet."

Thanks.

If gestalt IS the way it's going, make sure you pair a passive class with a lot of abilities that don't require separate actions to initiate (such as monk) with an active class with a lot of abilities that do require actions (such as druid). Of course, you could also do something like druid//totemist, druid//rogue, or (one of the rare cases where an active class goes really well with other active classes) druid//psychic warrior or psion.

Or even split the difference with druid//rogue 1/totemist 2/monk 2/psychic warrior or psion, using the Tashalatora feat to progress your monk abilities with your psionic class, and taking psionic powers to enhance your wild shape forms and action economy.

Of course, that's a lot more high-op than you probably want, but it's an option.

Thank you for the information, I was also looking into Factotum too. I am like a kid in a candy shop that doesn't know if I like chocolate or hard candy and which flavor. LMAO!!!!

[Rubik]

Thank you for the information, I was also looking into Factotum too. I am like a kid in a candy shop that doesn't know if I like chocolate or hard candy and which flavor. LMAO!!!!Factotum goes really well as a passive class, as well, since most of its abilities are free actions, and it even gives you standard actions at level 8.

Druid//factotum (or multiclass as monk 2/totemist 2/factotum) would work just fine, so long as you've got a good Con, Int, and Wis on you.

[willowsgrave]

Factotum goes really well as a passive class, as well, since most of its abilities are free actions, and it even gives you standard actions at level 8.

Druid//factotum (or multiclass as monk 2/totemist 2/factotum) would work just fine, so long as you've got a good Con, Int, and Wis on you.

My stats to work with is 18,18,16,16,15,13, and that is before the any addition from level 4,8,12.

[willowsgrave]

No to the gestalt

[Rubik]

No to the gestaltThen straight druid is your friend. Don't go with any ACFs, or at least those which give up the important three class features (animal companion, wild shape, and spellcasting, especially the latter two). You should consider a monk's belt instead of armor and a fanged ring for Improved Unarmed Strike. Definitely take the Natural Spell feat; anything else is just gravy.

[Sith_Happens]

Artificer. Be the shops.:smallwink:

[Crake]

Factotum 3/wizard 1/cleric 1/chameleon 10, cast dual 9s at level 15

[atemu1234]

Factotum 3/wizard 1/cleric 1/chameleon 10, cast dual 9s at level 15

Err... how? Max I see is level 6 spells.

[The Grue]

DM is allowing pretty much anything SRC with RAW. I suggested a gestalt character and he responses was it a one off dungeon crawl no restrictions.

>one-off dungeon crawl
>World's Largest Dungeon

Pick one.

[Crake]

Err... how? Max I see is level 6 spells.

The build is not for the lactose intolerant

[atemu1234]

The build is not for the lactose intolerant

I understood. Now, explain.

[DMVerdandi]

Then straight druid is your friend. Don't go with any ACFs, or at least those which give up the important three class features (animal companion, wild shape, and spellcasting, especially the latter two). You should consider a monk's belt instead of armor and a fanged ring for Improved Unarmed Strike. Definitely take the Natural Spell feat; anything else is just gravy.

Listen to this man, he tells no lies.

[Crake]

I understood. Now, explain.

Well, it centers around abusing extra spell slot, sanctum spell and snowcasting, along with the floating bonus feat to "leapfrog" spell levels each time you get a feat. With snowcasting and sanctum spell, you can take extra spell slot of a single level higher than you have spell slots, (each of thoses increases spell level by 1, then -1 for extra spell slot). So at level 14, when you get your first ability to cast 6th level spells (though you need at least 22 int/wis, easily done with chameleon's ability focus and some items). You use your floating bonus feat to get a bonus 7th level slot. Then when you level up to 15, you use your 15th level feat to get a bonus 8th level. Then finally you move your floating bonus feat to extra slot 9th. Since both sides of chameleon's casting use the one spell slot progression, the feat gives you both arcane and divine spell slots, though if your DM rules otherwise, you can just do it on your divine side first, then do the dark chaos shuffle to get it on your arcane side too. You'll want to dark chaos shuffle a normal feat as your 9th level spell slot anyway, beacuse you'll want to start using your floating bonus feat to get extra spell to add to your spellbook. That's the main reason why I suggested a level of wizard, to use an eidetic spellbook, and a level of cleric, because who doesn't like domains and turning uses. Three levels of factotum gets you int to a bunch of stuff, which you will have high due to your arcane casting being based on int. Hey presto, you can now cast literally any arcane spell from any list, and any divine spell from any list. Add in versatile spellcaster (using cleric spontaneous casting to qualify) and you can spend 2 arcane slots to cast any spell in your eidetic spellbook 1 level higher, since spells in spellbooks are counted as a spell known.

Edit: With flaws and some squeezing, you can get 9th level spell slots as early as 9th level, and dual 9s by 12 (when chameleon gets double aptitude)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What do you want your character to do?

I would avoid summoning spells of any kind, as from what I've heard about WLD, such creatures cannot return home once they're inside and will turn on you once the summoning duration expires. However, if you get the Summon Undead line of spells with Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm), you potentially have free meat shields. I have no idea if there are built-in countermeasures for undead minions, though.

I'll recommend an arcane gish. Start out Illumian (Naenhoon), Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 3/ Sacred Exorcist 5, and plan on maxing out Abjurant Champion and then take more Sacred Exorcist. Get Ancestral Relic for a custom Runestaff (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4), make it an Elvencraft Composite Longbow in RotW, you'll need to make it masterwork three times but you can put three wand chambers from Dungeonscape in it. The Consecrated Presence from Sacred Exorcist will enable you to sacrifice every bit of scenery, such as furniture, statues, doors, walls, even traps which are disproportionately expensive, to increase the potential value of its magical properties, given enough time. You can cast Stone to Flesh and then Flesh to Salt on boulders, walls, etc. to create considerable value (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/wealthAndMoney.htm#wealthOtherThanCoins) out of nothing, then sacrifice that to increase your relic's value.

Get Extend Spell and Persistent Spell and use Naenhoon with your Sacred Exorcist turning (and a Reliquary Holy Symbol and a Nightstick) to persist two spells each day, which you should probably pick from Wraithstrike, Greater Invisibility, and Draconic Polymorph: War Troll (Draconomicon and MM3, respectively). You'll need Power Attack, Practiced Spellcaster, probably the Minor Shapeshift reserve feat in CM, and of course Combat Casting and Ancestral Relic. Take two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (more here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) for two extra feats. You'll want to put Greater Luminous Armor on your runestaff if possible, otherwise take Arcane Preparation to be able to prepare it, and get a Rod of Bodily Restoration in MIC to fix the Str damage sacrifice that occurs when it ends. Invisible Spell is also highly recommended.

[Rubik]

What do you want your character to do?

I would avoid summoning spells of any kind, as from what I've heard about WLD, such creatures cannot return home once they're inside and will turn on you once the summoning duration expires. However, if you get the Summon Undead line of spells with Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm), you potentially have free meat shields. I have no idea if there are built-in countermeasures for undead minions, though.What do you mean, "avoid summoning spells"? Druids summon animals. Druids also have Handle Animal as a class skill. Also, the Charm Animal spell is a thing.

You do the math.

Also, many animals are useful to prevent starvation.

By eating them.

And apparently potential starvation is a problem in the WLD.

Also, uncontrolled animals attacking the group become sources of nearly free XP.

"Avoid summoning spells," he says.

[WeaselGuy]

What do you mean, "avoid summoning spells"? Druids summon animals. Druids also have Handle Animal as a class skill. Also, the Charm Animal spell is a thing.

You do the math.

Also, many animals are useful to prevent starvation.

By eating them.

And apparently potential starvation is a problem in the WLD.

Also, uncontrolled animals attacking the group become sources of nearly free XP.

"Avoid summoning spells," he says.

The phrase "Game, set, and match" comes to mind...

Also, I've always been partial to the concept of a Warforged Warlock for WLD, in the event that lack of uninterruptible rest becomes a factor, since Warlock requires literally zero downtime. It's also pretty hard to screw up. Binder/Warlock/Hellfire Warlock is particularly shiny.

[Crake]

I would avoid summoning spells of any kind, as from what I've heard about WLD, such creatures cannot return home once they're inside and will turn on you once the summoning duration expires. However, if you get the Summon Undead line of spells with Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm), you potentially have free meat shields. I have no idea if there are built-in countermeasures for undead minions, though.

It gives you a few options on how to handle summons, one of which is leave them be (so they do go back), one is they stay, but after the duration is over, they're no longer under your control, and the final one is they just don't work. So you'd need to ask your DM which one he's using. Considering how summons are supposed to work according to the standard rules, summons staying doesn't really make sense at all.

[willowsgrave]

>one-off dungeon crawl
>World's Largest Dungeon

Pick one.

World Largest Dungeon

[willowsgrave]

Well, it centers around abusing extra spell slot, sanctum spell and snowcasting, along with the floating bonus feat to "leapfrog" spell levels each time you get a feat. With snowcasting and sanctum spell, you can take extra spell slot of a single level higher than you have spell slots, (each of thoses increases spell level by 1, then -1 for extra spell slot). So at level 14, when you get your first ability to cast 6th level spells (though you need at least 22 int/wis, easily done with chameleon's ability focus and some items). You use your floating bonus feat to get a bonus 7th level slot. Then when you level up to 15, you use your 15th level feat to get a bonus 8th level. Then finally you move your floating bonus feat to extra slot 9th. Since both sides of chameleon's casting use the one spell slot progression, the feat gives you both arcane and divine spell slots, though if your DM rules otherwise, you can just do it on your divine side first, then do the dark chaos shuffle to get it on your arcane side too. You'll want to dark chaos shuffle a normal feat as your 9th level spell slot anyway, beacuse you'll want to start using your floating bonus feat to get extra spell to add to your spellbook. That's the main reason why I suggested a level of wizard, to use an eidetic spellbook, and a level of cleric, because who doesn't like domains and turning uses. Three levels of factotum gets you int to a bunch of stuff, which you will have high due to your arcane casting being based on int. Hey presto, you can now cast literally any arcane spell from any list, and any divine spell from any list. Add in versatile spellcaster (using cleric spontaneous casting to qualify) and you can spend 2 arcane slots to cast any spell in your eidetic spellbook 1 level higher, since spells in spellbooks are counted as a spell known.

Edit: With flaws and some squeezing, you can get 9th level spell slots as early as 9th level, and dual 9s by 12 (when chameleon gets double aptitude)


The DM allows flaws in our normal campaign.

[Crake]

World Largest Dungeon

I think his statement was rhetorical, basically saying that worlds largest dungeon cannot be completed in a single session, thus it's not really a "one off" unless you're skipping right to the end.

[Draz74]

I think his statement was rhetorical, basically saying that worlds largest dungeon cannot be completed in a single session, thus it's not really a "one off" unless you're skipping right to the end.

Bah. Weaklings who don't have the guts to play D&D for 5 days straight (24 hours/day). :smallwink:

I've heard Warlocks and Crusaders are the way to go in WLD due to their lack of need to stop and rest. Dragonfire Adepts, Incarnates, and similar classes should also do well then.

[Rubik]

Bah. Weaklings who don't have the guts to play D&D for 5 days straight (24 hours/day). :smallwink:

I've heard Warlocks and Crusaders are the way to go in WLD due to their lack of need to stop and rest. Dragonfire Adepts, Incarnates, and similar classes should also do well then.It's pretty easy to go all day with a shaper -- at least, past the first two levels or so.

[Lokd0wn]

It gives you a few options on how to handle summons, one of which is leave them be (so they do go back), one is they stay, but after the duration is over, they're no longer under your control, and the final one is they just don't work. So you'd need to ask your DM which one he's using. Considering how summons are supposed to work according to the standard rules, summons staying doesn't really make sense at all.

If the "summons stay after duration expires" variant is being used then you (or the party Cleric) should definitely get the Initiate of Nature feat from PGtF as you'll then have a horde of hand picked permanent summons to bumrush the WLD with. If you want to be really nasty take the Greenbound Summoning feat as Initiate of Nature allows you to command plants as well. This particular niche situation is one of the few where you might not take Natural Spell at 6th level, although it is still a really close call.

[willowsgrave]

I think his statement was rhetorical, basically saying that worlds largest dungeon cannot be completed in a single session, thus it's not really a "one off" unless you're skipping right to the end.

The Dm is using the Worlds Largest Dungeon Src material, and yes it not expected to be completed.