(Druid) summoners in PF

[sleepyphoenixx]

I've been invited to a PF (no 3.5 content) game, so i started reading up on it a little since my knowledge of PF is rather limited.

Is it just me or has SNA been nerfed to basically be "Summon Monster, but with a smaller list, no free template and less options"?

Because that's what it looked like to me on a skim. The things on the SNA list generally appear at the same level on the SM list, only SM gets a free template and more options to choose from, which becomes especially glaring at higher levels.

To those more familiar with PF: Am i missing something? Are there any feats, PrCs or other options that actually make druid summoning worthwhile or is it strictly "you summon like a cleric, but worse"? Is it even still a worthwhile focus for a PF druid or am i better off looking somewhere else to specialise?

[Spore]

Druids:
- There are templates which make summoning a standard action if used on certain types of animals. Standard action summon into pouncing dire tiger is something a cleric can't pull off but a Lion Shaman can.
- SNA has a other choices but - imho - more brute force. You could rule that SNA can summon ANY and all elementals that are in any book ever.
- There's still augment summoning and it's as good as ever. Additionally, you can have Sunlight, Starlight and Moonlight Summons (or stack them but arguably shedding light and have a +5 to stealth in dim light isn't that smart).
- Superior Summoning gives you +1 on any 1d3 or 1d4+1 roll for monster.

But there are summoners. They have archetypes that substitute Summon Monster for SNA.

[Psyren]

SNA being worse than SM was a thing in 3.5 too. At least now you can quicken it without Rapid Spell.

But "worse than SM" and "not worthwhile" are not the same thing. A summoning druid is still viable if you want one.

[sleepyphoenixx]

SNA being worse than SM was a thing in 3.5 too. At least now you can quicken it without Rapid Spell.

But "worse than SM" and "not worthwhile" are not the same thing. A summoning druid is still viable if you want one.

In 3.5 SNA at least got the BSF monsters a level earlier than SM, even if SM was better due to SLA access.
In PF they get them at the same level, SM adds a free template and gets more choices, too.

As for the feats, you got things like Greenbound Summoning, Ashbound and Rashemi Elemental Summoning.
In PF, the SNA specific summoning feats i found are a joke, while SM seems to get decent list expanders and standard action summoning that doesn't become obsolete at high levels. What's the point of having the ability to summon cats as a standard action when SNA 7-9 don't have any cats to summon?
+5 to a skill and weapons count as cold iron? Shedding light? Who spends a feat on crap like that?

What i'm wondering is if i've missed anything, because to me it looks like there is no mechanical reason to play a (summoning) druid in PF.
Your summons are worse. Your spell list is worse. Wild Shape is a longer duration copy of a spell series arcane casters get too. Anyone can get an animal companion through a wide variety of options.

What's the thing that makes druids stand out in PF? Because i seriously can't see it.

[Psyren]

What's the thing that makes druids stand out in PF? Because i seriously can't see it.

They were pretty deliberately nerfed, and are still T1 even after that. If you're looking to compare them to the 3.5 Druid, yeah, you're going to walk away disappointed, especially if you consider things like Rashemi Elemental Summoning to be reasonable or desirable.

[sleepyphoenixx]

They were pretty deliberately nerfed, and are still T1 even after that. If you're looking to compare them to the 3.5 Druid, yeah, you're going to walk away disappointed, especially if you consider things like Rashemi Elemental Summoning to be reasonable or desirable.

I don't mind lower power games, but i wouldn't play a primary caster class in one. I'd be too annoyed deliberately nerfing myself and holding back that much to enjoy the game.
My main complaint is that the options just don't seem to be there - for the druid. Wizards, Clerics and Sorcerers on the other hand seem to have gotten even better, at least on a quick look.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I don't mind lower power games, but i wouldn't play a primary caster class in one. I'd be too annoyed deliberately nerfing myself and holding back that much to enjoy the game.
My main complaint is that the options just don't seem to be there - for the druid. Wizards, Clerics and Sorcerers on the other hand seem to have gotten even better, at least on a quick look.

It's true on a more detailed look, too.

There might be some feats or variants to make druid summoning better, but the default SNA list is a straight up nerf to SM list, as you've noticed, and it was most certainly NOT this bad a discrepancy in 3.5. Druids were the only primary casters that were nerfed, as you also noticed the other 3 got buffed minorly (cleric) to massively (wizard, sorcerer). Druid is still a good class in PF (just the rock bottom of tier 1 and probably worse than sorcerer, but I think the tier 1/2 division is a bit meaningless anyway; Paragon Surge destroys the distinction anyway), but I would never focus on summoning w/o something that significantly buffs your abilities.

To make the best PF Druid possible (and I've been out of the PF update loop for a year or so now, so maybe this has changed) is a Menhir Savant Druid. You gain a ton of great class features and give up nothing important. Be a Samsaran w/ Mystic Past Life and max your Wis to 20; it'll let you add 6 spells from any other one divine class's spell list to your own to plug up weaknesses in the druid arsenal...most likely abjurations and teleportation / plane shifting stuff. Do the domain option, pick Feather (Animal) subdomain and take Boon Companion feat at level 7 (or 5, if you put off Natural Spell....yeah, level 7). End result is having a domain w/ nice spells like Fly, a big bonus to Perception checks, and the same animal companion you would've had anyway....all for the cost of one feat.

It applies to any caster w/ blasting spells, but mid to late levels you should incorporate Dazing Spell metamagic feat into your arsenal to have save or lose AoE spells targeting whichever save you want. Usually you want reflex since the other 2 have SoL spells already, though Dazing Stone Call for a no SR will save or lose in a 40 ft radius is pretty nice considering the base spell is only level 2. Even better is Dazing combined w/ Persistent Spell, though to afford that you'd need one on a metamagic rod or use of metamagic reducers (two traits can reduce cost by 1 level for 1 spell, and every caster's 15th level feat -- Spell Perfection -- ignores the adjustment entirely for one metamagic feat per casting of the chosen spell).

[somethingrandom]

In PF, the SNA specific summoning feats i found are a joke, while SM seems to get decent list expanders and standard action summoning that doesn't become obsolete at high levels. What's the point of having the ability to summon cats as a standard action when SNA 7-9 don't have any cats to summon?


Lion shaman also gives you the ability to add the giant or advanced templates to a cat by increase the spell level by 1 so or both for a +2 increase so with summon monster 8 you could summon an advanced giant dire tiger.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Lion shaman also gives you the ability to add the giant or advanced templates to a cat by increase the spell level by 1 so or both for a +2 increase so with summon monster 8 you could summon an advanced giant dire tiger.

You're still limited to a single choice per level. If a cat doesn't cut it you're out of luck. If there's no room for a huge tiger, you're out of luck.

That wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for the fact that it took me about 20 minutes to sketch out a wizard build that could summon 4 Hezrou at level 11, just by typing "summon" into the search bar.
While still being a full wizard, in addition to having more options that make use of your build choices if a whole lot of Hezrou don't cut it for the situation at hand. The discrepancy is ridiculous.

I mean, fair enough if they want to nerf casters. It's not like it wasn't needed. But a little consistency would have been nice.


As it is i'm looking into playing something different, because playing a PF druid might actually make me cry. :smallamused:

[Spore]

The overall spell list is pretty weak but I feel a druid is more of a (long-term) battlefield controller, ressource efficient blaster and summoner rather than a single thing. You should spread out your potential on a druid. You can deal 30d6 with a third level spell slot. But this requires actions and time. Time that your superior control spells (Entangle, Spike Growth, Warp Wood, Soften Earth and Stone) can buy you. Lastly your summons (which imho should last minutes/level by default) are not only protection but also another damage source.

Druid combat is very tactical and requires good preparation. When all is said and done, it is the weakest caster list (because it requires exact preparations and a group that likes their combat to have tens of rounds). But you have to play a druid slowly like a Treant.

[Psyren]

I don't mind lower power games, but i wouldn't play a primary caster class in one. I'd be too annoyed deliberately nerfing myself and holding back that much to enjoy the game.

Groups truly comfortable with high power games should have no trouble porting in Ashbound and all the other stuff you want to keep. But the PF Druid (and arguably other casters, judging by various spell nerfs) were not aimed at those groups necessarily.



I mean, fair enough if they want to nerf casters. It's not like it wasn't needed. But a little consistency would have been nice.

They wanted to nerf druids specifically as these tend to cause more problems at actual tables than wizards do, i.e. making the melee irrelevant all the way from level 1. By contrast, challenging a wizard or even a cleric early on was much easier, particularly since they didn't come with a packaged fighter as a class feature.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Groups truly comfortable with high power games should have no trouble porting in Ashbound and all the other stuff you want to keep. But the PF Druid (and arguably other casters, judging by various spell nerfs) were not aimed at those groups necessarily.

They wanted to nerf druids specifically as these tend to cause more problems at actual tables than wizards do, i.e. making the melee irrelevant all the way from level 1. By contrast, challenging a wizard or even a cleric early on was much easier, particularly since they didn't come with a packaged fighter as a class feature.

For the first, it's apparently a thing for the DM in question. I don't know him so i don't even try to understand it, it just is. But he still wants high power, so i'm going to try to deliver.


The one thing that made melee irrelevant from level 1 was the animal companion. That's still there. The druid at first level doesn't have anything else over the cleric, and a minimal HP advantage over the wizard/sorcerer.
Now sorcerers get a full animal companion at 1st level via the Sylvan bloodline (and a feat if they want to keep it up). Wizards get standard action summoning for a feat at first level and a free half-strength extend on summons if they specialize in conjuration (which apparently doesn't have a meaningful drawback anymore). It looks like you can make summoning actually usable from first level with a few other things with that.

Oh, and permanent summons at 20, which seems pretty strong to me considering that there aren't really any limitations on it other than "only 1 spell at a time". That's still 1-8 permanent companions depending on feats, which is a little much. But it's level 20 so it's not that important for actual gameplay.

If that's indeed their reasoning they certainly neglected to follow through. I doesn't really make sense.

[Psyren]

The one thing that made melee irrelevant from level 1 was the animal companion. That's still there.

It's weaker than in 3.5, and while the PF druid starts out on par with the 3.5 version in terms of spells/day, it soon falls behind, leaving fewer available to buff the companion (and herself) with.

The wizard and sorcerer have better chassis than they did in 3.5, that's certainly true. But given the nerfs to things like polymorph, glitterdust, grease, wish etc., they've been dialed back somewhat even so.

[Spore]

Actually the gap between wizards/clerics and druids enlarges at spell level 6+. The spells are laughable for high level spell slots, SNA list lacks variety and wild shape doesn't get any meaningful additions (short of big elementals whose DCs for supernatural abilities like Vortex are too low to treaten one big guy).

[Psyren]

Actually the gap between wizards/clerics and druids enlarges at spell level 6+. The spells are laughable for high level spell slots, SNA list lacks variety and wild shape doesn't get any meaningful additions (short of big elementals whose DCs for supernatural abilities like Vortex are too low to treaten one big guy).

Wild Shape is fine - Elementals still get goodies like perfect flight, waterbreathing, earth glide, and precision/sneak/bleed immunity (at 10+) that all last for hours.. And they can still cast spells, though of course that is true of all wild shaped forms. 120ft. perfect flight at 12th level is faster than a phantom steed and can't be dispelled. And all that is before you factor in feats like Powerful Shape and Quick Wild Shape.

[Mithril Leaf]

It's weaker than in 3.5, and while the PF druid starts out on par with the 3.5 version in terms of spells/day, it soon falls behind, leaving fewer available to buff the companion (and herself) with.

The wizard and sorcerer have better chassis than they did in 3.5, that's certainly true. But given the nerfs to things like polymorph, glitterdust, grease, wish etc., they've been dialed back somewhat even so.

They've also been given some free Metamagic, Blood Money, free spells per day, made Animal Companions a small feat chain (3 feats for full strength), Bloodlines are incredibly strong, there are great favored class bonuses, Dazing Spell, those are all off the top of my head. While there isn't the plethora of broken spells added by the massive list of 3.5 splats, Pathfinder Wizards and especially Sorcerers aren't in the least bit jonesing. I'd say that as far as general strength outside of certain builds go, they come out ahead.

[Psyren]

They've also been given some free Metamagic, Blood Money, free spells per day, made Animal Companions a small feat chain (3 feats for full strength), Bloodlines are incredibly strong, there are great favored class bonuses, Dazing Spell, those are all off the top of my head. While there isn't the plethora of broken spells added by the massive list of 3.5 splats, Pathfinder Wizards and especially Sorcerers aren't in the least bit jonesing. I'd say that as far as general strength outside of certain builds go, they come out ahead.

Free metamagic is far easier to do in 3.5 (and you can get it across the board, not just to one or a handful of specific spells), and 3.5 has more powerful ones (Persist Spell, Twin Spell, Searing Spell, Invisible Spell etc.) An animal companion in 3.5 is one feat away, not 3, and you can grab undead cohorts too. There isn't anything PF bloodlines give you that can't be matched or exceeded with 3.5 spells or feats. The PF versions of these classes are not doing badly by any means, but comparing them is to me ludicrous. Only in the chassis (class features and number of feats) do the PF versions come ahead, but that is far from the whole picture; a wizard with just its chassis and no spells or feats will suck in either edition.

[deuxhero]

Animal Companions a small feat chain (3 feats for full strength)

Animal Ally actually restricts you to the weakest AC choice. No Big Cats or Rocs for you.

[Mithril Leaf]

Free metamagic is far easier to do in 3.5 (and you can get it across the board, not just to one or a handful of specific spells), and 3.5 has more powerful ones (Persist Spell, Twin Spell, Searing Spell, Invisible Spell etc.) An animal companion in 3.5 is one feat away, not 3, and you can grab undead cohorts too. There isn't anything PF bloodlines give you that can't be matched or exceeded with 3.5 spells or feats. The PF versions of these classes are not doing badly by any means, but comparing them is to me ludicrous. Only in the chassis (class features and number of feats) do the PF versions come ahead, but that is far from the whole picture; a wizard with just its chassis and no spells or feats will suck in either edition.

Undead Cohorts are Leadership Lite, that hardly counts when nobody will allow either. Please inform me what across the board metamagic reducers there are in first party 3.5 that are applicable to plain old Wizards and Sorcerers besides Practical Metamagic for Sorcerers. I consider that one boon negated by the fact that a Human Sorcerer gets 20 free spells known and Pages of Spell Knowledge are so cheap. Persist Spell on a Wizard is not that great, Dazing Spell is probably better for both playing God and Blasting. Searing Spell is admittedly a very nice addition, although the 20 more spells known means you can generally afford to take some variety in your blasts.

There are certainly a few really broken 3.5 spells (Wraithstrike, Spell Engine, Celerity), but PF didn't nerf many staple core spells such as Haste and Planar Binding. Plus you can pick Celerity as a fourth level Word of Power known for a feat. I'm not saying the best of the best is nearly as good, but the floor was raised and the average is about on par in Pathfinder.

[Psyren]

I wasn't aware haste needed to be nerfed :smallconfused: and the tools you need to balance planar binding are right there in the spell (the "impossible demands and unreasonable commands" clause, the "subvert instructions" clause, and of course, the "later revenge" clause.) Any GM worth his salt can keep you in line using these, and the most common way of attempting to mitigate that is 3.5 only (Mindrape.) So even in spells that weren't touched, the PF caster is behind.

For your other question - Metamagic School Focus, Arcane Thesis, Practical Metamagic, Easy Metamagic, Instant Metamagic, Metanode spell, Residual Magic, and Su Wish for metamagic rods, off the top of my head.

Getting DMM or Lyric Spell onto a wizard or sorcerer is cake. And 3.5 has runestaves to counter pages of spell knowledge, or you can just make an easy-bake wizard.

Dazing spell is nice early on, but it's also will negates (using the spell's original level/save DC) which makes it scale terribly since you have to heighten it manually, and you're already blowing metamagic reducers on DS itself. It's not nearly as good as you make it out to be.

[Mithril Leaf]

I wasn't aware haste needed to be nerfed :smallconfused: and the tools you need to balance planar binding are right there in the spell (the "impossible demands and unreasonable commands" clause, the "subvert instructions" clause, and of course, the "later revenge" clause.) Any GM worth his salt can keep you in line using these, and the most common way of attempting to mitigate that is 3.5 only (Mindrape.) So even in spells that weren't touched, the PF caster is behind.

For your other question - Metamagic School Focus, Arcane Thesis, Practical Metamagic, Easy Metamagic, Instant Metamagic, Metanode spell, Residual Magic, and Su Wish for metamagic rods, off the top of my head.

Getting DMM or Lyric Spell onto a wizard or sorcerer is cake. And 3.5 has runestaves to counter pages of spell knowledge, or you can just make an easy-bake wizard.

Dazing spell is nice early on, but it's also will negates (using the spell's original level/save DC) which makes it scale terribly since you have to heighten it manually, and you're already blowing metamagic reducers on DS itself. It's not nearly as good as you make it out to be.

There is a reason I said Wizard and Sorcerer. And also First Party. That leaves: Metamagic School Focus, Arcane Thesis, Practical Metamagic, Metanode Spell, and Residual Magic. Again, Wizard or Sorcerer only, how do we get Lyric Spell and Divine Metamagic? DMM also will require you gain the ability to cast all spells as Divine, as it was errated to not work with Arcane Spells.

As far as Planar Binding, the old Dominate then kill method still works.

[Psyren]

There is a reason I said Wizard and Sorcerer. And also First Party. That leaves: Metamagic School Focus, Arcane Thesis, Practical Metamagic, Metanode Spell, and Residual Magic.

Ok, even without Dragon, still more and broader than PF.


DMM also will require you gain the ability to cast all spells as Divine, as it was errated to not work with Arcane Spells.

Southern Magician is first party.


As far as Planar Binding, the old Dominate then kill method still works.

"Against its nature," "obviously self-destructive," plus the old standbys of SR (there's no True Casting, Assay, Consumptive Field etc. in PF), will save, mind-affecting etc. apply here, so PF is behind yet again.

[Spore]

Animal Ally actually restricts you to the weakest AC choice. No Big Cats or Rocs for you.

While being correct you ignore the fact that a large wolf is still like a better low level fighter at tripping. But honestly it's pretty balanced for 2 or three feats to give you an additional class feature.


Plus you can pick Celerity as a fourth level Word of Power known for a feat.

Actually you can only pick Words of Power if your DM is explicitly okay with it. They are an optional rule and you shouldn't go to your table. "Hey I found these optional rules where I cherrypick my spells from. Hope you're okay with it. Also I use power points rather than Vancian spells."


I wasn't aware haste needed to be nerfed

Haste IS actually very powerful (or Blessing of Fervor) it's just your group's usage of it that nerfs it somewhat: I've had people forgetting the extra attack, using Haste to move around the battlefield pointlessly or even provoke additional AoOs.

Back to the point at hand: I prefer the druid to a wizard any day and while I like clerics sometimes any tidbits of the class feel very pointless. Having enough melee proficiency to get into the thick of things is usually only viable after rounds of heavy buffing. Channel Positive Energy is somewhat of a out-of-fight thing, Channel Negative Energy is actually a thing you do when you don't want to waste valuable ressources or your build is focussed upon it.

So Wizards and Clerics are primary casters in my eye while druids are a - pardon the pun - quite balanced mix of wildshapes for melee, assistance for melee in the form of an free animal companion with wide choices AND a full list where you can prepare any spell without having read or found the scroll.