How to convince my DM not to nerf melee combat

[Temennigru]

We are playing a lvl 2 campaign and my DM got this insane idea that melee combat in D&D was OP because people at my table completely wasted their feats and became useless sacks of gelatin.

With me being the tank of the group and the only one to actually deal damage due to my average str roll (18!) and my using 2 handed weapons, I constantly find myself fighting 6 orcs at a time and winning because of my warforged damage reduction (which annoys the hell out of the DM).

So the DM decided to remove the str mod to dmg from melee combat, leaving me at a max damage that's lower than my previous min damage and completely ruining my tripper build (which requires me to use knockback, which in turn requires me to deal 10+ damage, which is now more than my max damage(2d4).)

How can I convince the DM not to completely ruin melee combat?

[YossarianLives]

You could try pointing out how your build is now useless and that melee is already weaker than most other options.

[TheIronGolem]

We don't know your the specifics of your campaign well enough to answer that effectively, and we certainly don't know your DM well enough to know what arguments will or will not convince him.

If your DM is open to persuasion and you want our help, maybe ask him to post a thread here on the forums where we can get the details. If your DM isn't open to persuasion, nothing we can tell you will help anyway.

[Temennigru]

He is a 1st time DM. I tried convincing him that melee needs that bonus to function but he's convinced that melee is the most broken mechanic in D&D.

The fact that our party consists of 2 clerics, 1 horrendously built gish, 1 bard and myself doesn't help at all.

He's also convinced that the DR2/adamantine that I get from adamantine body is broken and wants to nerf it to DR2/bludgeoning

[j_spencer93]

Best way ever to convince him. Ask if you can switch to a wizard, druid, or cleric now.

[Temennigru]

Best way ever to convince him. Ask if you can switch to a wizard, druid, or cleric now.

I thought of that. But I'm afraid to lose my character forever.
Sir chromium is my favorite character so far.

If things escalate, it might be the only viable course of action.

[TheIronGolem]

He is a 1st time DM. I tried convincing him that melee needs that bonus to function but he's convinced that melee is the most broken mechanic in D&D.

The fact that our party consists of 2 clerics, 1 horrendously built gish, 1 bard and myself doesn't help at all.

My guess would be that the DM, being new and not yet knowing any better, is unwittingly designing encounters that favor melee characters. Is he swarming you with hordes of mooks that go down easy and don't use ranged weapons or good tactics? Any spellcasters?

Also, what is there to your game besides combat? Any puzzle-solving, diplomacy, exploration, that sort of thing? If it's all or mostly combat, then naturally the combat-optimized characters are going to be the ones who shine the most.

You're going to have to be patient with a new DM, especially if you yourself are pretty experienced.

[Tvtyrant]

Do the Orcs still add their mods? Because if not then it should not make too big of a change. Also remember that optimization is relative; if you can kill 6 Orcs and your party struggles with a few you actually are over powered. Part of that can be put on the DM for using rolled stats, but in any case you should be working with the groups level.

[Ephemeral_Being]

I thought of that. But I'm afraid to lose my character forever.
Sir chromium is my favorite character so far.

If things escalate, it might be the only viable course of action.

Um. Here's a radical notion. Have a conversation with the guy? Instead of doing your utmost to break his game?

It sounds like you're running a character that's optimized above that of the rest of the party. Why not get rid of Warforged (or at least Admantine Body), and go play a Human, TWF Ranger? It's melee, but won't be NEARLY as problematic for him.

You might want to think about the level to which the party is optimized BEFORE building a character in the future.

[Necroticplague]

He's also convinced that the DR2/adamantine that I get from adamantine body is broken and wants to nerf it to DR2/bludgeoning

Huh? That makes the exact opposite of sense. The reason you have DR is because you're covered in adamantine plating. Adamantine is harder than steel, so logically it should be more resistant to bludgeoning than other things, not weak to it.

Same with 'no STR to damage'. Wait, why would how hard you can swing something suddenly have no bearing on how much it hurts? On a related note, you can point out that melee damage tends to only scale with STR, especially for monsters (since weapon damage doesn't change much, if at all), so this would nerf all the melee enemies into uselessness. And remove pretty much all the damage scaling for melee.

Also, what class is the warforged? Your designation of tank lends me to believe Knight or Crusader, which may be part of the problem (in very low-op and low-level, Crusaders come across as annoyingly unkillable. Doubly so if they're Feral or Stony, though I know that can't be the case here).

[Sith_Happens]

Have him pick a Core monster at random, then ask him to figure out how many attacks on average it would take for you to kill that monster dealing 2d4 damage per attack. If he tries to object with "You're not the only one attacking it though," remind him that if the rest of the party is doing jack-all in combat now that's not suddenly going to change because you've been forced to join them.

[danzibr]

So the DM decided to remove the str mod to dmg from melee combat

He's also convinced that the DR2/adamantine that I get from adamantine body is broken and wants to nerf it to DR2/bludgeoning
These make me cry on the inside a little.

If you don't want to play a caster, you can just show him how good a caster can be. Just indicate some spells which are absurdly broken. Hmm, ya know, it might help to make suggestions to your fellow party members.

Just don't show him a Totemist or Warblade.

In the DM's defense, melee shines brightest at low levels.

[Blackhawk748]

Ok, your level 2. Of course melee seems OP, this is when melee shines!! Honestly id help out the other players with their Characters, you're obviously good to go.

As for the DM, hes new, send him towards us and we can lend him a hand, the road is rocky as hell, i know i would have loved all of this experience when i started.

[Eloel]

In all honesty, while not broken, DR/Adamantine combined with high HP will get you a lot of mileage at very low levels (till around 3rd level spells). Yes, nerfing it is a dumb move. But also yes, it's more powerful than many options a new player can find or see.

[Temennigru]

My guess would be that the DM, being new and not yet knowing any better, is unwittingly designing encounters that favor melee characters. Is he swarming you with hordes of mooks that go down easy and don't use ranged weapons or good tactics? Any spellcasters?

Also, what is there to your game besides combat? Any puzzle-solving, diplomacy, exploration, that sort of thing? If it's all or mostly combat, then naturally the combat-optimized characters are going to be the ones who shine the most.

You're going to have to be patient with a new DM, especially if you yourself are pretty experienced.

We are escorting a newly crowned king in his party caravan and all the time we get orc ambushes with 6 melee and 2 ranged orcs. There was also something about a certain orcish clan returning. That's basically it for now.

[Feint's End]

I agree with previous posters. Ask the DM to join us and discuss his problems with melee. I'm sure we can solve the problem here.

[Temennigru]

Ok, your level 2. Of course melee seems OP, this is when melee shines!! Honestly id help out the other players with their Characters, you're obviously good to go.

As for the DM, hes new, send him towards us and we can lend him a hand, the road is rocky as hell, i know i would have loved all of this experience when i started.

I'm helping a friend of mine who will join the party next session with his arched build.
His build uses dead eye and vital aim from targeteer to deal +8 damage per shot. Perhaps if the archer outshines me I can convince the DM to revert to the regular rules. I'm just afraid that we will get to higher levels before I can test out my build on the squishy lvl 1 orcs.

[Blackhawk748]

The story is not very rich. We are escorting a newly crowned king in his party caravan and all the time we get orc ambushes with 6 melee and 2 ranged orcs. There was also something about a certain orcish clan returning. That's basically it for now.

Ok, so he is favoring the melee with his combat encounters. I recommend bringing this up, i mean one spellcaster with grease can seriously screw your day up.

Just give him some suggestions for changing the combats around, orcs with bolas and nets, orcs on mounts, a destroyed bridge that the party needs to get the carriage across, things like that.

[Temennigru]

In all honesty, while not broken, DR/Adamantine combined with high HP will get you a lot of mileage at very low levels (till around 3rd level spells). Yes, nerfing it is a dumb move. But also yes, it's more powerful than many options a new player can find or see.

It also makes me VERY slow, which is bad for a melee combatant.


Ok, so he is favoring the melee with his combat encounters. I recommend bringing this up, i mean one spellcaster with grease can seriously screw your day up.

Just give him some suggestions for changing the combats around, orcs with bolas and nets, orcs on mounts, a destroyed bridge that the party needs to get the carriage across, things like that.

I told him to put a wizard or 2 or give someone an adamantine weapon if he wanted to see me bleed.
He just hasn't had the chance to do it yet.

[The Glyphstone]

Since you're fixed on playing your build, and are bringing a friend who is also optimized...have you considered trying to help the other players in the group be more effective? Clerics are T1 potential classes, and even Bards can be incredibly powerful when used right. You've obviously got the op-skill, use it on your friends' behalf so you don't have to do all the work.

[BilltheCynic]

Show him JaronK's Tier System of Classes (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=1002.0). Show him Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards). Show him LogicNinja's Batman Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?104002-3-5e-The-Logic-Ninja-s-Guide-to-Wizards-Being-Batman). Show him CoDzilla (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/CoDzilla). Show him the Incantatrix. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?223438-3-5-Incantatrix-Handbook-%28WIP%29) Show him some of the more broken spells (or, if you're lazy, just Polymorph Any Object (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Polymorph_Any_Object).) If these don't convince him, ask him if you can have your warforged take a break from adventuring (so you don't lose him) then bring in a temporary character that is a full caster and break the game. After this ask if you can retire the full caster and go back to your warforged.

EDIT: politely leave. That would probably be nicer.

[TheIronGolem]

The story is not very rich. We are escorting a newly crowned king in his party caravan and all the time we get orc ambushes with 6 melee and 2 ranged orcs. There was also something about a certain orcish clan returning. That's basically it for now.

Well, that confirms that this is a case of a new DM not being too savvy with encounter design yet. I'd agree with the other posters who suggested you dial things back a bit. Maybe offer to reduce your STR to 14 or so while he gets the hang of things, and in the meantime you can help the other players out with combat tactics and charop (should they desire). After a while you'll be in the mid-levels where melee doesn't appear so dominating, with a group that has a better understanding of the game, and then an 18 STR won't be such a big deal. But in the meantime, you've got to cut the newbies some slack.

[Temennigru]

Since you're fixed on playing your build, and are bringing a friend who is also optimized...have you considered trying to help the other players in the group be more effective? Clerics are T1 potential classes, and even Bards can be incredibly powerful when used right. You've obviously got the op-skill, use it on your friends' behalf so you don't have to do all the work.

I got a level in crusader so I could get the taunt stance and the feature that effectively doubles my DR.
If I can at least tank for everyone in the next session I'm happy that I'm at least helping. Even if I do less damage than our bard.


Show him JaronK's Tier System of Classes (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=1002.0). Show him Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards). Show him LogicNinja's Batman Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?104002-3-5e-The-Logic-Ninja-s-Guide-to-Wizards-Being-Batman). Show him CoDzilla (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/CoDzilla). Show him the Incantatrix. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?223438-3-5-Incantatrix-Handbook-%28WIP%29) Show him some of the more broken spells (or, if you're lazy, just Polymorph Any Object (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Polymorph_Any_Object).) If these don't convince him, ask him if you can have your warforged take a break from adventuring (so you don't lose him) then bring in a temporary character that is a full caster and break the game. After this ask if you can retire the full caster and go back to your warforged.

My thoughts exactly. I could bring in a broken character or a troll build such as the Optimized basket-weaving build (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1121371).
I don't think people would like me very much after that though.

[Karl Aegis]

Making strength a dump stat for everybody doesn't really fix anything. Your orcs are suddenly not dangerous at all and your melee rely entirely on constitution. Combat slows down to a crawl as everyone is big and beefy (at least they should be).

[Blackhawk748]

I got a level in crusader so I could get the taunt stance and the feature that effectively doubles my DR.
If I can at least tank for everyone in the next session I'm happy that I'm at least helping. Even if I do less damage than our bard.

Wait... the bard is doing more damage than the primary melee at lvl 2?? What is he doing??

[Tvtyrant]

Show him JaronK's Tier System of Classes (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=1002.0). Show him Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards). Show him LogicNinja's Batman Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?104002-3-5e-The-Logic-Ninja-s-Guide-to-Wizards-Being-Batman). Show him CoDzilla (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/CoDzilla). Show him the Incantatrix. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?223438-3-5-Incantatrix-Handbook-%28WIP%29) Show him some of the more broken spells (or, if you're lazy, just Polymorph Any Object (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Polymorph_Any_Object).) If these don't convince him, ask him if you can have your warforged take a break from adventuring (so you don't lose him) then bring in a temporary character that is a full caster and break the game. After this ask if you can retire the full caster and go back to your warforged.

After breaking the game when you know your other build was already out shining the rest of the party, I would kick you from the game for being selfish and unable to play well with others. This is some of the worst possible advice you can give on this subject. If you can't come to a compromise woth another individual (or in this case group) the polite response is to leave, not throw the equivalent of a tantrum in the hopes you get your way.

[Temennigru]

Wait... the bard is doing more damage than the primary melee at lvl 2?? What is he doing??

His weapon has more damage die than mine. Without the strength mod, everything comes down to what weapon you use.

[Blackhawk748]

His weapon has more damage die than mine. Without the strength mod, everything comes down to what weapon you use.

What is he using, a Greatsword? Bards dont have any weapons with a bigger damage die than a Crusader, even one using a Guisarme (which is what i assume your using)

[Troacctid]

I got a level in crusader so I could get the taunt stance and the feature that effectively doubles my DR.

Oh. Well. No wonder. Crusaders actually are legitimately unbalanced at low levels. The class is stupidly frontloaded. And Adamantine Body only compounds that--it's not overpowered in the long run, but it does frontload your power even more by giving you adamantine full plate several levels before a normal character would get it.

What you have is a character with the vast majority of his power weighted toward the early game. It should even out later on as the spellcasters outscale you.

[Grooke]

If the group is doing fine right now and you don't find yourself useless, you might simply roll with it while asking the DM to keep in mind that casters become extremely powerful at higher levels, and that he might very well have to revert his change in the future.

If at lvl 5 you guys get TPKed by some dumb monster, or simply can't damage strong ennemies (a DR5/x will be a nightmare...), it'll be a good time to remind him that his nerf might be out of place.

[JBPuffin]

Clearly you're better with the rules than the others; is there a reason you aren't DMing? I'm curious if maybe it would've been better for the current DM to play a game before y'all decided he should lead. It sounds like he could use a crash course in 3.5 from the experts :smallbiggrin:.

[Necroticplague]

If the group is doing fine right now and you don't find yourself useless, you might simply roll with it while asking the DM to keep in mind that casters become extremely powerful at higher levels, and that he might very well have to revert his change in the future.

If at lvl 5 you guys get TPKed by some dumb monster, or simply can't damage strong ennemies (a DR5/x will be a nightmare...), it'll be a good time to remind him that his nerf might be out of place.

Except its entirely possible the opposite will happen: as he goes farther into Crusader, with melee damage no longer scaling, his defense will increase until he basically can't be hurt in melee (because he's made of solid defence, and the enemies are basically using wet noodles, since most monsters rely on their massive STR for damage). This will make him look even more overpowered, necessitating a further melee nerf. Which will make the issue worse.

[Temennigru]

If the group is doing fine right now and you don't find yourself useless, you might simply roll with it while asking the DM to keep in mind that casters become extremely powerful at higher levels, and that he might very well have to revert his change in the future.

If at lvl 5 you guys get TPKed by some dumb monster, or simply can't damage strong ennemies (a DR5/x will be a nightmare...), it'll be a good time to remind him that his nerf might be out of place.

Like I said, I helped my friend build in such a way that he replaces me as the main damage dealer, so no problem there. If things get too out of hand, I'll ask for a "temporary" character poof (until he reverts to the old rules) and maybe turn my character into a warforged artificer, so he can make stronger weapons.


Except its entirely possible the opposite will happen: as he goes farther into Crusader, with melee damage no longer scaling, his defense will increase until he basically can't be hurt in melee (because he's made of solid defence, and the enemies are basically using wet noodles, since most monsters rely on their massive STR for damage). This will make him look even more overpowered, necessitating a further melee nerf. Which will make the issue worse.

I think by then the DM will realize that we are taking literally 3 days to kill each boss and will be open do dialogue.


Clearly you're better with the rules than the others; is there a reason you aren't DMing? I'm curious if maybe it would've been better for the current DM to play a game before y'all decided he should lead. It sounds like he could use a crash course in 3.5 from the experts :smallbiggrin:.

I'm not DMing because I've only been playing D&D for 2 months.
I just tend to get obsessive with new hobbies, so I bought most of the 3.5 books and read all of them.
That's why I know more than our current DM.

[Lorddenorstrus]

Ok, your level 2. Of course melee seems OP, this is when melee shines!! Honestly id help out the other players with their Characters, you're obviously good to go.

As for the DM, hes new, send him towards us and we can lend him a hand, the road is rocky as hell, i know i would have loved all of this experience when i started.

Agreed, I would kill to have the knowledge of you and most other Giants members tossed into my head. As is being a slightly newer DM i spend a ton of my time researching the ever living hell out of the game. It's helped a lot, at least i'm not idiotic and thinking melee are OP when we have the entire tier 1 set of classes to complain about.. that aside, my own failures to set up decent fights sometimes result in my going overboard on numbers or flat stats to compensate for my tactical mistakes with the enemies. Thankfully for my players though only 1 person has died from ME so far and he was ecstatic about it. Apparently high risk of death to his character is a joy O.o?

[Necromancy]

New or inexperienced DMs are know it alls who don't want your advice.

Don't play a character you like and could risk losing under risk of battling with hands tied.

Don't try to break the game either. It's petty and beneath you.

His game is obviously easy, so stop worrying about being super effective. It's time to bring in some truly stupid character concepts. Start looking through race class combinations until one pops into your head that makes you chuckle out loud. Your only purpose now is to amuse yourself in any way possible.

Eventually combat will become unbearably slow and the party will be motivated to lern2play, the DM will learn a thing or two, and you'll have joined the ranks of looneys for life. Either that or you'll be killed horribly by the other players and forced to play your warforged again

[Karl Aegis]

Strength (Str)
Strength measures your character’s muscle and physical power. This ability is especially important for fighters, barbarians, paladins, rangers, and monks because it helps them prevail in combat. Strength also limits the amount of equipment your character can carry.

You apply your character’s Strength modifier to:

Melee attack rolls.
Damage rolls when using a melee weapon or a thrown weapon (including a sling). (Exceptions: Off-hand attacks receive only one-half the character’s Strength bonus, while two-handed attacks receive one and a half times the Strength bonus. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies to attacks made with a bow that is not a composite bow.)
Climb, Jump, and Swim checks. These are the skills that have Strength as their key ability.
Strength checks (for breaking down doors and the like).

Notice how little strength actually matters to a character now? You can use dexterity for melee attack rolls with weapon finesse and use dexterity for climb and jump checks with agile athlete (Races of the Wild pg. 148). You can break doors with Disable Device. So what's left? Swim checks and throwing weapon damage. Not worth much at all. Pretty much every character can dump it.

[PaucaTerrorem]

Ask for a private meeting with him. Tell him you want to show him the power difference between martial and caster. Have him set up a couple encounters and play each character through them. Show how quickly a caster can shut down encounters. Hell do the work and make characters at different levels. Give him first hand knowledge of linear melee vs quadratic caster. But do this all nicely. Don't come off as a cocky ass.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'd just go with it. Unless he's really dense he'll notice on his own that melee combat without strength bonus doesn't really work. When all his terrifying monsters end up as wet noodles and the party gets bored and asks for an actual challenge, that's when you bring up reversing the nerf if he doesn't reach the conclusion on his own.

Until then just treat is as a learning experience.


Agreed, I would kill to have the knowledge of you and most other Giants members tossed into my head. As is being a slightly newer DM i spend a ton of my time researching the ever living hell out of the game. It's helped a lot, at least i'm not idiotic and thinking melee are OP when we have the entire tier 1 set of classes to complain about.. that aside, my own failures to set up decent fights sometimes result in my going overboard on numbers or flat stats to compensate for my tactical mistakes with the enemies. Thankfully for my players though only 1 person has died from ME so far and he was ecstatic about it.
Eh, people die. It's what happens when you go out to fight monsters and steal their stuff. It's something you'll get a feel for in time and in the meantime your party will learn that sometimes retreat is a valid option.:smalltongue:


Apparently high risk of death to his character is a joy O.o?
Of course it is. Where's the fun in winning if your opponents aren't a worthy challenge?

[Temennigru]

New or inexperienced DMs are know it alls who don't want your advice.

Don't play a character you like and could risk losing under risk of battling with hands tied.

Don't try to break the game either. It's petty and beneath you.

His game is obviously easy, so stop worrying about being super effective. It's time to bring in some truly stupid character concepts. Start looking through race class combinations until one pops into your head that makes you chuckle out loud. Your only purpose now is to amuse yourself in any way possible.

Eventually combat will become unbearably slow and the party will be motivated to lern2play, the DM will learn a thing or two, and you'll have joined the ranks of looneys for life. Either that or you'll be killed horribly by the other players and forced to play your warforged again

Every encounter the entire party goes unconscious and I am the only one left to patch them up.
That's why he's trying so hard to nerf me. It's like he wants to kill off everyone.
He even has his NPCs gang up on one person then keep hitting them when they're down.

Then again, we've only had 3 encounters and in all of them we were outnumbered.

I'll give you more feedback after the crusader trial run this saturday.

[Crake]

I got a level in crusader so I could get the taunt stance and the feature that effectively doubles my DR.

Are you referring to the crusader's delay damage pool? I was of the impression that it did not apply DR to the damage from the delay damage pool?

[Vizzerdrix]

Do the Orcs still add their mods? Because if not then it should not make too big of a change. Also remember that optimization is relative; if you can kill 6 Orcs and your party struggles with a few you actually are over powered. Part of that can be put on the DM for using rolled stats, but in any case you should be working with the groups level.

Here is a thought. The rest of the group could instead sit down and learn to actually play the game. It should not fall on one person to advance the story due to a lack of system competency in the rest of the group, especially when that one person is already using the overall weakest option in said system.


Um. Here's a radical notion. Have a conversation with the guy? Instead of doing your utmost to break his game?
It sounds like you're running a character that's optimized above that of the rest of the party. Why not get rid of Warforged (or at least Admantine Body), and go play a Human, TWF Ranger? It's melee, but won't be NEARLY as problematic for him.
You might want to think about the level to which the party is optimized BEFORE building a character in the future.

DM can not cope with a simple tripper, so do you honestly think introducing TWF to this particular DM wouldn't cause him to immediately have kittens right on the spot, if not a full blown aneurysm? On top that, advising a complete change of the character he wants to play is rather unhelpful. If he wanted to play a human ranger, he would have made a human ranger, and more than likely ended up in the same boat.


New or inexperienced DMs are know it alls who don't want your advice.

Don't play a character you like and could risk losing under risk of battling with hands tied.

Don't try to break the game either. It's petty and beneath you.

His game is obviously easy, so stop worrying about being super effective. It's time to bring in some truly stupid character concepts. Start looking through race class combinations until one pops into your head that makes you chuckle out loud. Your only purpose now is to amuse yourself in any way possible.

Eventually combat will become unbearably slow and the party will be motivated to lern2play, the DM will learn a thing or two, and you'll have joined the ranks of looneys for life. Either that or you'll be killed horribly by the other players and forced to play your warforged again

This post is full of good advice all around. kudos to you Necromancy. I'd like to toss in Never bring a character you care about to a new DM.

[Fitz]

firstly I would advise communicating with the whole group to see what everyone wants from the game

secondly if he appears to be trying to kill the whole party maybe a private discussion about what he sees as the objective of the game (some dms seem to think they should "win" - for a different value of win)

and thirdly - probably most relevant as others have covered the above points- optimisation isnt by itself an issue- what you have here (as well as some communication issues)- differeing levels of optimisation is a problem for DMs (and I have experienced this over 14+ years running games)
if I was running for your group I would have issues with challenging your character without overwhelming the others - similarly an appropriately optimised encounter for thier characters may be trivial to yours- so either the optimisation level needs to rise for everyone else or fall for you. (going on your description)

I do not think that removing str to damage is an appropriate "balance" but you do need to discuss with all concerned - especially about what everyone wants from the game.

Fitz

[Allanimal]

I'd just go with it. Unless he's really dense he'll notice on his own that melee combat without strength bonus doesn't really work. When all his terrifying monsters end up as wet noodles and the party gets bored and asks for an actual challenge, that's when you bring up reversing the nerf if he doesn't reach the conclusion on his own.


My guess is inexperienced DM will not remove STR bonus from monsters, and use their stats directly from the MM. just a hunch based on the system mastery clues so far revealed.

None of what follows is new advice, but will reiterate. I think a two pronged approach is best: 1) talk to the DM. Meeks doesn't need the nerf. 2) try to tune your PCs OP level to the other PCs and the DM. If that means bringing them up or yourself down a bit, or both, that would help.

[Psyren]

Show him JaronK's Tier System of Classes (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=1002.0). Show him Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards). Show him LogicNinja's Batman Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?104002-3-5e-The-Logic-Ninja-s-Guide-to-Wizards-Being-Batman). Show him CoDzilla (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/CoDzilla). Show him the Incantatrix. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?223438-3-5-Incantatrix-Handbook-%28WIP%29) Show him some of the more broken spells (or, if you're lazy, just Polymorph Any Object (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Polymorph_Any_Object).) If these don't convince him, ask him if you can have your warforged take a break from adventuring (so you don't lose him) then bring in a temporary character that is a full caster and break the game. After this ask if you can retire the full caster and go back to your warforged.

EDIT: politely leave. That would probably be nicer.

So break the game, then/or ragequit. Totally helpful! :smallsigh:


Um. Here's a radical notion. Have a conversation with the guy? Instead of doing your utmost to break his game?

It sounds like you're running a character that's optimized above that of the rest of the party. Why not get rid of Warforged (or at least Admantine Body), and go play a Human, TWF Ranger? It's melee, but won't be NEARLY as problematic for him.

You might want to think about the level to which the party is optimized BEFORE building a character in the future.

This, seriously.

[lytokk]

Are you referring to the crusader's delay damage pool? I was of the impression that it did not apply DR to the damage from the delay damage pool?

I've heard of this one going both ways. I feel that the intention was that the damage from the delayed damage pool would not get reduced again by damage reduction, but the way the abilities work together as written seem to say that DR affects damage coming out of the DDP. Its kind of up to the DM to make the call. If he wanted to nerf your character a little he could switch his view from one method to the other, but from the sound of things he's intent on getting a TPK.

Adamantine warforged crusader is probably the hardest to kill thing you'll ever come across in an mundane world. Once he starts hitting you with touch attack spells it'll start bringing you down as fast (if not more) as the rest of teh characters.

[Necroticplague]

Actually, its pretty clear your DR doesn't effect your dellayed damage. DR "ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks". The damage from your Delayed Damage Pool running out is not a weapon or natural attack.

[Firechanter]

If you like your character so much, shelve it for now and bring it back in another day, when you have a DM who actually understands the game.

For now, switch to something that doesn't need Strength. I'd go for a Wizard. Don't make him extra broken or anything - just a plain ole Wizard with standard feats and spells.

[YossarianLives]

Every encounter the entire party goes unconscious and I am the only one left to patch them up.
That's why he's trying so hard to nerf me. It's like he wants to kill off everyone.
He even has his NPCs gang up on one person then keep hitting them when they're down.

Then again, we've only had 3 encounters and in all of them we were outnumbered.

I'll give you more feedback after the crusader trial run this saturday.
Maybe you should take a visit to the worst DMs ever thread.


My advice is to talk to him about and explain the issues. If that fails, roll with it and wait for the inevitable TPK.

[Segev]

If it ruins your ability to play Sir Chromium, you should replace him anyway. I would discuss with the DM a means of sending Sir Chromium off on a side quest or personal downtime activity that keeps him safely out of the party, and bring in your replacement. This way, unless your DM is a jerk (and thus probably not somebody with whom you should be gaming anyway), if things change, you can bring Sir Chromium back fairly easily.

Then introduce your new character who operates in one of the fields that the DM currently thinks is too weak. Wizard, Druid, or Cleric are the most likely options to look at.

If you never get a chance to bring him back in this campaign, save Sir Chromium for another one.

[Zyzzyva]

Yeah, I'm with the "talk to him, shuffle your high-OP character offstage, try to help your team get better at the game" camp.

Do not listen to the "troll the game" people.

[Rakoa]

You'd probably be better off showing him what a real optimized character can do. Break out the Wizard.

[Nessa Ellenesse]

We are playing a lvl 2 campaign and my DM got this insane idea that melee combat in D&D was OP because people at my table completely wasted their feats and became useless sacks of gelatin.

With me being the tank of the group and the only one to actually deal damage due to my average str roll (18!) and my using 2 handed weapons, I constantly find myself fighting 6 orcs at a time and winning because of my warforged damage reduction (which annoys the hell out of the DM).

So the DM decided to remove the str mod to dmg from melee combat, leaving me at a max damage that's lower than my previous min damage and completely ruining my tripper build (which requires me to use knockback, which in turn requires me to deal 10+ damage, which is now more than my max damage(2d4).)

How can I convince the DM not to completely ruin melee combat?

There is no nice way to tell an idiot he is being an idoit, or a first time DM they do not know jack about game balance. I had this DM that gave the clerics the ability to cast spontaniously, tried to make the sorcerer and bard prepare thei spells ahead of time and nerfed wild shape into unplayability (basically my druid never new what she would wild shape into and I could not prepare for the posibilties because the DM would not even give me the list. I almost got to the point of telling the DM she was being unfair and walking. Here is the thing. Fighters outclass spell casters esp mages for the first 9 to 10 levels this is when the tide turns esp if you allow spell compendium spells and the spell casters are smart about how they pick their spells. Adding str mod to melee is a drop in the bucket compare to the hurt evocation spells can bring. from buring hands and the low end all the way to meteor swarm at the top. The only thing first level fighters have over first leveel mages is first level mages run out of spells fast. If you want to show your DM oped play a warmage.

[Nessa Ellenesse]

continuing because I ran out of room, I am posting from my phone. When I get home maybe I can show you my level 14 charater that has our current DM pulling his hair out on ocassion. Quick over view evoker 5 warmage 1 ultimate magus 8 with praticed spell caster on warmage effectively a level 12 evoker and a level 7 warmage caster level 14 on both. My DM was foolish enough to let her get her hands on a ring of wiardry 1. We just finished expidtion to castle greyhawk. she decimated four of Zagig's diamons goloms and still had over 25 spells left not including cantrips, noone else in the party could even scratch them.

[Sith_Happens]

Have you tried mentioning that your damage output isn't the alleged problem in the first place? So far you've had three encounters, each against eight orc warriors. Adding strength to damage doesn't let you attack more than one orc per turn and 2d4+0 damage still has 25% of disabling (exactly 0 HP) a standard orc warrior and a 37.5% chance of dropping one, so this "nerf" isn't actually going to make you all that much worse at killing orcs. The reason you keep living long enough to do so eight times in a row is that you're good at not dying.

[RolkFlameraven]

Sounds like he is running with a Me vs Them mentality that is common to newer DMs. It really wouldn't surprise me if he thinks his 'job' IS to kill you, and your effectiveness at not dying is annoying him because he can't 'win' by killing you like he can the rest of the party.

Still, have you talked with the rest of your party? You have said you've got Clerics and a Bard, before trying to bring in a ringer (who sounds like he is going to get ranged damage nerfed if he is even let to play as he is using Dragon Mag) and a 'bad' Gish have you tried talking with them? The Clerics AC shouldn't to be to bad and unless they are both running with only cure lt. they should be able to bring something to the table besides a mace or two. Bard can be quite good with a party of this size and how bad can a Gish be at level 2? Is that gish a Ftr/Wis or something else?

Also as this was rolled stats... well what is the rest of your parties stats? My wife and one of my players often need 5-7 full stat rolls just to get more then a +3 total mod (the dice HATE them) and I often either roll their stats or let them use point buy. The point is that in a group where one person is running with much better stats due to luck of the dice in a melee heavy group that 18 could make a major difference.

After all you already have a better BAB then everyone else, if your stat is a full +2 or god forbid a +3 higher then anyone else in the party then its not surprising in the least that you've drawn all the attention.

[Troacctid]

To those saying that spellcasters are where the real power is, you got that this is a level 2 game, right? 1st level spells are not remotely game-breaking--certainly not when you only get like three of them per day. A Warforged Crusader with Adamantine Body is basically god tier at level 1-2 and easily crushes level-appropriate encounters pretty much without breaking a sweat. Most things at that level have no prayer of beating the DR even if they can get through the AC. Toss in Crusader's Strike and delayed damage and attacks of opportunity with reach, and it's literally a kobold-crushing machine.

[Segev]

Actually... if they have 3-4 encounters per day, a level 2 spellcaster has enough castings of Sleep to shut down, single-handedly, at least 2 of them, under most circumstances. (Particularly if the monsters are not intelligently played.)

Level 1 spells can easily be game-"breaking" at level 2, in the right hands.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Actually... if they have 3-4 encounters per day, a level 2 spellcaster has enough castings of Sleep to shut down, single-handedly, at least 2 of them, under most circumstances. (Particularly if the monsters are not intelligently played.)

Level 1 spells can easily be game-"breaking" at level 2, in the right hands.

You know, that doesn't really work that well in actual play as it does in theory unless your DM is really lazy. Sleep is a 10ft radius burst, so unless all the monsters stand right next to each other chances are you won't get them all with a single casting. They also tend to have about a 20-25% chance to save, which is hardly insignificant.

Not to mention that he's absolutely useless after that. The Crusader just keeps going, healing himself automatically with the right stance and oneshotting enemies with his greatsword (or other weapon of choice).
It's not that hard to see how someone could come to the conclusion that melee is overpowered, especially if they're all new and the wizard is far more likely to cast Magic Missile.

It's made worse by the fact that ToB classes are pretty much plug & play. While the rest suffers from the typical newbie mistakes like taking Weapon Focus and blasting spells the Crusader is still T3 even if you take all Toughness for feats.


We know that play at those levels isn't really how the game works out later. A newby group & DM only have what they can see unless they bother doing research on the internet, and not everyone is that invested into the hobby.
That's why my advice is to give it time. If he doesn't notice it himself by the time your level 5-6 you can bring it up again for discussion.

[Troacctid]

Actually... if they have 3-4 encounters per day, a level 2 spellcaster has enough castings of Sleep to shut down, single-handedly, at least 2 of them, under most circumstances. (Particularly if the monsters are not intelligently played.)

Level 1 spells can easily be game-"breaking" at level 2, in the right hands.

Given that it requires expending a limited daily resource and has a substantial chance of failure while being only marginally more effective in many encounters than smacking the enemies with a greatsword...meh, it's pretty fair.

Targeting a living creature and putting them to sleep (based on their hit dice) isn't fundamentally more powerful than targeting a living creature and beating them unconscious with damage (also based on their hit dice). It's essentially a blasting spell. It has the useful advantage of hitting multiple targets and/or potentially knocking out a larger target quickly, but that's too be expected when you're talking about your nova abilities. You're still doing essentially the same thing that a Fighter is doing. It's not until later that you get the real game-changer spells.

[Temennigru]

What is he using, a Greatsword? Bards dont have any weapons with a bigger damage die than a Crusader, even one using a Guisarme (which is what i assume your using)

He uses a tiny greatsword for flavor

[Temennigru]

Actually, its pretty clear your DR doesn't effect your dellayed damage. DR "ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks". The damage from your Delayed Damage Pool running out is not a weapon or natural attack.

Sorry. I was thinking of stone power's temp life as DR.

[Segev]

Oh, I didn't say it was unbalanced. I said it was possible to look that way when it works well. Or at least, that's what I was trying to get across.

[Lord of Shadows]

We are playing a lvl 2 campaign and my DM got this insane idea that melee combat in D&D was OP because people at my table completely wasted their feats and became useless sacks of gelatin.

How can I convince the DM not to completely ruin melee combat?

As has been said, your DM does not have a very good handle on the game. I foresee many other nerfs on the horizon...

In response, in your talks with this DM, you could point out that the mechanics of the game are there for a reason, it's called Game Balance. If you are using Core rules (and any group just starting out should stick to Core until they have a handle on the system), the overall balance of the game will even things out. Gently remind him that these rules were not tossed together randomly over a weekend bender.. they have undergone 30+ years... YEARS... of tweaking and refinement. He is not going to fix things by removing a mechanic that is central to the game, he is only going to make things worse.

In the mean time, I would definitely switch to a throwaway character, one that is completely Core rules. When he dies, erase the name and bring his brother/cousin/roommate into the party. Rinse and repeat, until there is a better grasp on the game by both the other players who created useless meatsacks and the DM.
>

[Blackhawk748]

He uses a tiny greatsword for flavor

Um, isnt that like a d8 and a -4 to attacks for improperly sized and a nother -4 for proficiency?

[goto124]

He uses a tiny greatsword for flavor

That's only a PrettyGoodsword

[Grommen]

Your that guy!

Na I'm just messing with you.

But here is what you did, and why your DM is flipping out.

You made a build, at low levels, is one shotting everything in site. Now from what you have explained the rest of the party is not in the same ball park. It happens. Your doing 13 - 14 hit points damage per whack (assuming you didn't find the joy of power attacking), to mobs that have an average of 14 HP's on the high side. On the other side of that you most likely have a very high AC, and 2 points of damage reduction so the DM can't simply bum rush you with mooks and harm you.

Your toon is currently out of balance with the power curve of the game. Don't worry! This will get fixed. Your damage output is flat, wile hit points will continue to grow. Yep you'll an extra attack, but it's at a 25% less chance of hitting. At best that one will be a 50/50.

Your friends are gonna get worse. They cast spells, and spells are bad for beginning DM's. O sure they are cute and cuddly right now. A simple Sleep spell "O look they all went to sleep" to a Magic Missile (yaye 3 hp's damage). But soon....soon they will be violating people with tenticles, giant balls of fire, and stuffs. Clerics will all of a sudden have a better chance to hit, more damage output than your mighty greatsword.

Then....Then your DM will bow his head and finally understand the error of his way. That is if he has not lost his mind attempting to remove the STR bonus from everything in the game.

In the mean time, you can help him out. Pick up a longsword. This will drop your damage per hit by about 5 or 6 Hit points per whack.

If you want to really abuse the DM. Get a shield. If your smart enough get the feat, combat expertise. This will drive your AC up even more. Combine that with the lower attack bonuses from no STR and you'll be invincible in combat.

[ericgrau]

It doesn't matter how strong melee is in theory, it matters how strong melee is for your particular group. Maybe the real issue isn't whether or not your DM needs to nerf melee. The issue is that your DM needs to nerf you. If the other players are building characters poorly compared to you, then take a step back.

It may be time to ditch all tricks that rookies wouldn't know such as warforged and knockback. If it's stronger than what the other players know about, then that's a red flag.

Also help the DM with the real problem.

At the same time you can help other players with their characters, but you shouldn't expect them to ever know the system super well as learning that could fill a college class. You shouldn't therefore pick their characters for them without them learning the system either. "Play a warforged" is a bad suggestion. "Strength is for hitting things, if you want to hit things you should have it" is a good suggestion. Or "select spells that are for combat and work against most foes. If they have a save DC you should have a good wisdom."

[endur]

Role playing is acting out a part. My advice is to focus on role playing your character.

If everyone is really enjoying how your warforged tin man is looking for his heart, nobody will care when your axe cuts down every orc it hits.

Its only when people focus on the combat and forget about the characters, that they start to notice that some characters are more effective than others.

[KingSmitty]

I would just ask the DM to change your build up a bit. Focus on AC, someone suggested earlier to use a weapon with less damage die, maybe just two hand a shield and when the enemies go to attack you without a strength bonus, they'll eventually get fed up and go after your party. At some point the DM will see that perhaps nerfing melee is the worst decision when nobody can kill anything and either remove the ban or just fudge rolls so he can kill you.

[Sith_Happens]

He uses a tiny greatsword for flavor

This both explains everything about your situation and utterly horrifies me.

[Nessa Ellenesse]

Sounds like he is running with a Me vs Them mentality that is common to newer DMs. It really wouldn't surprise me if he thinks his 'job' IS to kill you, and your effectiveness at not dying is annoying him because he can't 'win' by killing you like he can the rest of the party.

Still, have you talked with the rest of your party? You have said you've got Clerics and a Bard, before trying to bring in a ringer (who sounds like he is going to get ranged damage nerfed if he is even let to play as he is using Dragon Mag) and a 'bad' Gish have you tried talking with them? The Clerics AC shouldn't to be to bad and unless they are both running with only cure lt. they should be able to bring something to the table besides a mace or two. Bard can be quite good with a party of this size and how bad can a Gish be at level 2? Is that gish a Ftr/Wis or something else?

Also as this was rolled stats... well what is the rest of your parties stats? My wife and one of my players often need 5-7 full stat rolls just to get more then a +3 total mod (the dice HATE them) and I often either roll their stats or let them use point buy. The point is that in a group where one person is running with much better stats due to luck of the dice in a melee heavy group that 18 could make a major difference.

After all you already have a better BAB then everyone else, if your stat is a full +2 or god forbid a +3 higher then anyone else in the party then its not surprising in the least that you've drawn all the attention.

I will have to agree, killer DM's are a serious pain. Gently remind him that you are playing Dungeons and Dragons not tunnels and trolls. The purpose of playing is for the party to achieve an objective not get killed off to entertain the DM. If this fails, launch a player revolt. Talk to your fellow players, help them formulate stratgies to stay alive. Start acting like an adventuring party rather than a group of individuals that are just traveling together. Nothing ticks off a killer DM than a party with good tactics. If that fails get everyone to leave the table. Some times the only way to deal with an out of control DM is via player revolt.

[Necroticplague]

Assuming he nerfs the enemies like he does the players, it seems like this would make his problem worse. The problem is he can't K.O. you because you're so tough, right? How would making all the melee do less damage fix that?

[Temennigru]

Um, isnt that like a d8 and a -4 to attacks for improperly sized and a nother -4 for proficiency?

No. He is small as well.

[Blackhawk748]

No. He is small as well.

Oh, your doing equivalent weapons, ok, but he still isnt proficient as he is a bard, unless he took proficiency with it.

[Lerondiel]

Change weapons out for a few levels?

Take a large shield and a heavy pick? The d6+4 has gotta help the DM relax....and praying for a 20 stops you falling asleep :P

[Temennigru]

I told the DM I would want to switch out my character for a meleeficer with a similar flavor to my current character if he made the change because the build I wanted to do would become invalid with the new rules (knock-down would never trigger). He told me to calm down and said he wouldn't change the rules anymore.

[HunterOfJello]

If you don't want your normal melee character to be the strongest PC at the table, then teach the other players how to not suck.

[atemu1234]

Show the DM this thread.

[Metahuman1]

Something that never did get clarified, was your DM gonna remove STR from the mechanics for enemy's as well as for the party? Or was that gonna be only you guys have that handicap?

[Sith_Happens]

I told the DM I would want to switch out my character for a meleeficer with a similar flavor to my current character if he made the change because the build I wanted to do would become invalid with the new rules (knock-down would never trigger). He told me to calm down and said he wouldn't change the rules anymore.

What sort of "calm down" was it? Those aren't usually words you say to someone you think is being reasonable, so you might want to watch out for this DM having it out for you.

[Metahuman1]

What sort of "calm down" was it? Those aren't usually words you say to someone you think is being reasonable, so you might want to watch out for this DM having it out for you.

Let's see how the next few sessions pan out. It might be helpful to keep this thread up to speed as that happens though, just a suggestion.

[TrollCapAmerica]

If the guy is reasonable it may have been a knee-jerk reaction that stems from inexperience. The best DM I've played had a few of those early on like "Giants are legendary why not make all rolls they hit and damage max?" and "7 AoO on each character charging a Hydra seems fair to me"

If not well...he will either see how big a mistake he made or cry tears of blood and throw fits when PCs get 3rd level spells

[ZeroSpace9000]

Sorry for mobile post. Teminigru, the problem I see is that you've brought a high op character into a low op game. Compounding this is the fact that, by my math, you have way to many feats. Adamantine body, stone power, and SRD Knockdown, which requires combat expertise and improved trip. At lvl 2, you should have 1 feat, not 5. Essentially, you've created a problem that the DM is "fixing" with the nerf bat. If you step up, and explain everything without being hostile, you might be able to get these needs pulled, and still be allowed to stay. Or don't, and let the DM Nerf you into oblivion. Your choice.

[Zweisteine]

At lvl 2, you should have 1 feat, not 5.

3 at level 1 with flaws, up to one more if he has a fighter level in there. It works perfectly well if he hasn't taken a crusader level yet, and has two fighter levels.

Adamantine Body, Stone Power, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Knockdown

If he's talking about what his build will look like in one level, it could work for sure.

[ZeroSpace9000]

3 at level 1 with flaws, up to one more if he has a fighter level in there. It works perfectly well if he hasn't taken a crusader level yet, and has two fighter levels.

Adamantine Body, Stone Power, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Knockdown

If he's talking about what his build will look like in one level, it could work for sure.

This would work, however, the OP has not stated they've taken any Fighter levels, nor that Flaws were even on the table. Also, given that the OP hasn't seemed to make an offer to help the other players or DM step up their game, and was trying to double up on DR against attacks, I don't see that he/she has a leg to stand on here.

Yes, there was the new player that would be bringing in a suped up archer, but this particular person was refered to as a friend. I could be wrong, not knowing all the details and all that, but the OP seems to be playing favourites on that front.

[Lorddenorstrus]

One, figure out what style of DM he's aiming for. Style 1 (which im assuming heavily as a no) Mechanics. Probably going to be tier 1 game.
Style 2 FLUFFY story stuff. Usually very low on power end.

If he's aiming for style 1. He has failed you should teach him the games mechanics better basically the months of reading you did, compact the important bs. Shove it into his brain.

If he's style 2... *shrug* I have a friend like that. He claimed for months ToB was soooo OP and banned it. I got tired of it and made 1 of every tier 1 class. He literally threw a chair at me after the 3rd. He has since unbanned the ToB. Learned the tier system and asked people in his games to play at a tier 4 and lower level. He likes fluff not strong stuff. If this new DM is strong on his story and doesn't understand the game enough to deal with high power.. he's creating a fluff environment. Also probably a TPK as he seems to think his job is offing the party. He'll learn to DM better or better yet, you the more learned player can DM. lol.