Quantifying a Limited Wish?

[pwykersotz]

So you as a DM decide that you want to play things by the books, but you also want to open up flexibility for your NPC's. Maybe it's to represent that high Int, maybe it's to make things just a little bit tougher. Whatever the reason, you come up with:

Limited Wish (3/day). You may use the spell duplication property as detailed in the Wish spell up to a spell level of 5. It is cast as a 5th level spell. Insert details about spell attack and saving throw here, based on the creature.

What increase would you apply to virtual HP/AC/Attack/Damage for such an ability for the purpose of calculating CR? Also, these numbers were chosen at random to provide a concrete example that judgement calls could be based off of, assume that the ability could be flexible based on the creature if that helps generate ideas. Between 1 and 5 uses, and between 1st and 8th spell levels. Any ideas? Technically by the DMG it's pretty impossible, as spells can increase all or none of the factors which govern CR, and the reason for the ability is to be flexible and to use any or none of them. Is there an ability mapped in the DMG table that you would specifically use as an even-ish match? Or something else?

[JAL_1138]

...strangely, the Pixie's whatever-it's-called that lets them cast a bucketload of powerful spells 1x/day each is pretty close, though less powerful and flexible. Granted, the Pixie is far under-CR'ed as it is (1/4, should probably be 1/2 or 1).

[Jlooney]

So you as a DM decide that you want to play things by the books, but you also want to open up flexibility for your NPC's. Maybe it's to represent that high Int, maybe it's to make things just a little bit tougher. Whatever the reason, you come up with:

Limited Wish (3/day). You may use the spell duplication property as detailed in the Wish spell up to a spell level of 5. It is cast as a 5th level spell. Insert details about spell attack and saving throw here, based on the creature.

What increase would you apply to virtual HP/AC/Attack/Damage for such an ability for the purpose of calculating CR? Also, these numbers were chosen at random to provide a concrete example that judgement calls could be based off of, assume that the ability could be flexible based on the creature if that helps generate ideas. Between 1 and 5 uses, and between 1st and 8th spell levels. Any ideas? Technically by the DMG it's pretty impossible, as spells can increase all or none of the factors which govern CR, and the reason for the ability is to be flexible and to use any or none of them. Is there an ability mapped in the DMG table that you would specifically use as an even-ish match? Or something else?

Well te first thing that poped into my mind was that "wow this DM hates his table". A +3 weapon, to quote a sig of a person on this forum, is not just a boulder on a stick. It's Kords right nut.

+3 is legendary and at most you can have 3 attuned items. How do you compete with limited wish that many times per day and not just be a straight caster? Seems to me that you're entering godhood level power there. Literally.

[JAL_1138]

Well te first thing that poped into my mind was that "wow this DM hates his table". A +3 weapon, to quote a sig of a person on this forum, is not just a boulder on a stick. It's Kords right nut.

+3 is legendary and at most you can have 3 attuned items. How do you compete with limited wish that many times per day and not just be a straight caster? Seems to me that you're entering godhood level power there. Literally.

They get to be Schrödinger's Wizard three times. Fifth level spells are powerful but not game-breakingly so in most cases. How do you compete? Make your saving throws, or stab them in the face until they die, or stab them in the kidneys until they die, or grapple them, or trip them, or break their concentration if they're using a buff or summon.

[Jlooney]

They get to be Schrödinger's Wizard three times. Fifth level spells are powerful but not game-breakingly so in most cases. How do you compete? Make your saving throws, or stab them in the face until they die, or stab them in the kidneys until they die, or grapple them, or trip them, or break their concentration if they're using a buff or summon.

Ask any pc if they would grapple a 10+ level wizard with every spell memorized. Besides the whole stab it to death thing can be said about dragons, doesn't make it any less deadly.

[JAL_1138]

Ask any pc if they would grapple a 10+ level wizard with every spell memorized. Besides the whole stab it to death thing can be said about dragons, doesn't make it any less deadly.

A PC strong enough to, as part of a decent-sized group, take on a 10th-level wizard generally? ...Wouldn't be completely crazy to grapple, no. Grapple + Cloud of Daggers is decent, Grapple + Spirit Guardians Ping Pong, or Grapple + let the Pally go for a Smite or two while double-teaming with the Rogue who hits with Sneak Attack...

Could be done. Or hey, grapple their hands and, with a favorable DM, stop them from using somatic components.

Or if they're vastly higher level than the enemy Limited Wisher, Grappler grapples + Cleric casts Antimagic Field + Fighter or rogue commences stabbing the grappled enemy.

And there's the "stab/shoot/spell until dead" approach, which is still certainly doable, especially since the battlecry of so many parties is "Geek the mage!"--which works rather well against casters, who tend to have a lot less HP and resistance than dragons.

And if you've got a wizard in the party, just Counterspell it every time they try to use it.

[Envyus]

...strangely, the Pixie's whatever-it's-called that lets them cast a bucketload of powerful spells 1x/day each is pretty close, though less powerful and flexible. Granted, the Pixie is far under-CR'ed as it is (1/4, should probably be 1/2 or 1).

Still don't agree with that. Doing anything will kill a Pixie. Trying to put it on the same tier as an Orc or a Bugbear is not correct. None of it's abilities can harm a creature ether. If a gang of Pixies fought a gang of Orcs or whatever they would be slaughtered easily. Maybe turn one or two into sheep for a tiny bit but that is it.


Ask any pc if they would grapple a 10+ level wizard with every spell memorized. Besides the whole stab it to death thing can be said about dragons, doesn't make it any less deadly.

I would. Then I would improvise to gag them then restrain their arms. Tada unlike the Dragons they can't

[SharkForce]

Still don't agree with that. Doing anything will kill a Pixie. Trying to put it on the same tier as an Orc or a Bugbear is not correct. None of it's abilities can harm a creature ether. If a gang of Pixies fought a gang of Orcs or whatever they would be slaughtered easily. Maybe turn one or two into sheep for a tiny bit but that is it.



I would. Then I would improvise to gag them then restrain their arms. Tada unlike the Dragons they can't

sleep may not kill things, but it certainly can end fights. confusion may not directly kill things, but the group of orcs that is walking around killing each other until there's only one left (with a few painful wounds) may disagree regarding the pixie's inability to kill things.