Movement/charging past invisible characters?

[magicalmagicman]

This came up in a recent session. Long narrow corridor, two invisible characters in front of a visible character, and the enemy tries to charge it. What happens? Does he hit the invisible guys? Or does he charge right past them?

[Eloel]

If the invisible characters want to let the enemy through, they can do so. If not, it's a bull-rush attempt, with a couple AoOs thrown into the mix.

I can't quote specific rules for it, but I've seen the question and the answer before so I can parrot the answer :smallbiggrin:

This obviously assumes all characters/enemy are medium sized and originally non-squeezing.

[magicalmagicman]

A quote would be very helpful, as this is a debate I'm having with my DM.

[Telonius]

Take a similar example. A character charges down a hallway towards an enemy, but there's a pit trap between him and the enemy (that he doesn't realize is there). The attacking character moves onto the pit trap and falls to his doom. So the charge can be started by the character, but foiled by a condition that he didn't know about.

For the invisible characters, there are a couple of possibilities. The easiest would be that they're readying some action that will trigger when the person charges. This works if they're aware of the person charging, and win initiative.

The second would be that the attacker wins initiative. He attempts to charge through the spaces, but enters a space that contains an enemy. This probably requires a DM call. Personally I'd rule that it's a 50% miss chance to avoid colliding with the defender and ruining the charge (same as the 50% miss chance to hit an invisible creature). The defenders would still get an AoO (if they have Combat Reflexes) as the character moves out of threatened squares. Colliding with the defender would stop the attacker's movement. I don't think there are any rules in standard D&D that would grant any kind of damage against either the attacker or the defender. (d20 Modern does have some Collision rules under the Vehicles section, but this would be kind of tacked-on).

[Flickerdart]

You can force a check for that much-maligned combat maneuver - Overrun.

[Telonius]

I'd looked into Overrun for this, as well; but it would have to be houseruled as a special case of it. Overrun is a standard action that you take during a move action, while Charge (which is what the player declared) is a full-round action. Personally I'd rule it as a special instance that doesn't count as an action if the defender decides to avoid; but foils the charge if the defender decides to resist. (Not sure how I'd count resisting or attempting to knock the attacker prone, as far as "hostile action" goes; I could really see that as going either way).

[HalfQuart]

You can force a check for that much-maligned combat maneuver - Overrun.

I don't think you even need to do the check, but as you say, this should just be treated as an Overrun. Here's the blurb from the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#overrun):

Overrun

You can attempt an overrun as a standard action taken during your move. (In general, you cannot take a standard action during a move; this is an exception.) With an overrun, you attempt to plow past or over your opponent (and move through his square) as you move. You can only overrun an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller. You can make only one overrun attempt per round.

If you’re attempting to overrun an opponent, follow these steps.

Step 1
Attack of Opportunity. Since you begin the overrun by moving into the defender’s space, you provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender.

Step 2
Opponent Avoids? The defender has the option to simply avoid you. If he avoids you, he doesn’t suffer any ill effect and you may keep moving (You can always move through a square occupied by someone who lets you by.) The overrun attempt doesn’t count against your actions this round (except for any movement required to enter the opponent’s square). If your opponent doesn’t avoid you, move to Step 3.

<step 3 and 4 don't matter>

So in this case, in Step 2 the invisible Opponent Avoids and the attacker can continue the charge and attack the visible guy. It doesn't really even matter that the person is invisible.

I think the only real hangup is what happens if the second invisible guy is adjacent to the visible guy, which would mean that he and the attacker are sharing the same space after the charge. I don't think there's a RAW answer for how to resolve that. I would say that if the invisible guy wants to remain undetected that he needs to drop prone. Technically you can't occupy the same square as an enemy unless they are helpless (not just prone), but since he's trying to stay out of the way and not cause trouble, I think prone would be sufficient.

[Eloel]

I don't think you even need to do the check, but as you say, this should just be treated as an Overrun. Here's the blurb from the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#overrun):


So in this case, in Step 2 the invisible Opponent Avoids and the attacker can continue the charge and attack the visible guy. It doesn't really even matter that the person is invisible.

I think the only real hangup is what happens if the second invisible guy is adjacent to the visible guy, which would mean that he and the attacker are sharing the same space after the charge. I don't think there's a RAW answer for how to resolve that. I would say that if the invisible guy wants to remain undetected that he needs to drop prone. Technically you can't occupy the same square as an enemy unless they are helpless (not just prone), but since he's trying to stay out of the way and not cause trouble, I think prone would be sufficient.

I'd say the invisible character would get penalties for squeezing, but prone doesn't sound right.

[glitterbaby]

From SRD

Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)

You cannot charge through a square that contains a creature. Even if that creature would allow you to pass, you cannot charge through its square.

Edit: I'd rule then that, since it's a full round action to charge, the charging creature would run into the square and finish his movement and turn there. I wouldn't allow the creature to change his combat maneuver mid turn.

[Telonius]

That would be the literal RAW ruling on it, but that's (yet another) case where literal RAW doesn't make any sense at all. The character is charging full-tilt at an enemy, and then ... just stops for no apparent reason. No, didn't hit anything; nothing visible stopped him; just couldn't move.

[Curmudgeon]

That would be the literal RAW ruling on it, but that's (yet another) case where literal RAW doesn't make any sense at all. The character is charging full-tilt at an enemy, and then ... just stops for no apparent reason. No, didn't hit anything; nothing visible stopped him; just couldn't move.
This happens all the time with attempted Charges in D&D, usually because the character trying to Charge didn't see a bit of mud or a protruding root on the ground (difficult terrain). Or they could be passing through a spell effect that slows them down. Or they go past an enemy's threatened square and get hit by an AoO. Or whatever. So it turns out that a Charge wasn't actually possible, and they've just taken a move action or two instead; the character then needs to decide what (if anything) to do with the rest of their turn after their plan didn't work out.

[glitterbaby]

OP was asking for RAW as he's having a debate with his DM. I wouldn't say that nothing happens even when using the literal RAW but then we're into DM territory and we certainly don't have enough information to say what would happen in this specific situation to make even a guess as to what would make sense. If the invisible creatures were in the square right in front of him then I wouldn't say much would happen other than their aoo's. If they were in the squares next to their ally after the charger then maybe a miss chance or something followed by a strength check or something to see if the bowling ball hits the pins and if so, how far the pins fly. The point is that if we're not using the RAW then we really can't say much unless we have a good amount of information, and we don't yet.

[Telonius]

With those examples, it makes sense; there's some sort of sensory trigger that would cause a person to pull up short (noticing the difficult terrain), something physically forces them to stop (tripping on the root, getting clotheslined by the AoO), or it's a spell that specifically acts to slow people down. But with an invisible person in front of you, the movement would stop in the square right in front of the enemy, for no reason other than, "you can't charge through an enemy square." The character never entered the enemy's square, never got hit with anything, never saw something that made him stop; so there's nothing to explain why or how he stopped.

[glitterbaby]

I think the trouble you're running into is that you're looking at things backwards. The RAW is what happens, then we can explain it with storytelling. "You cannot charge through an occupied square" doesn't mean literally nothing happens. If I were DMing I'd probably say something like "as you begin to charge your opponent you crash into something five feet from where you began." That could then be followed up in a few ways but that's really the DM's decision as there aren't really any rules for this. Maybe the charger is bewildered by the interruption and loses his action, maybe he isn't and regains a standard action. I would probably rule his action to be over as he used a full-round to begin charging and I tend to like going by RAW almost exclusively unless it really doesn't make sense.

[Troacctid]

This happens all the time with attempted Charges in D&D, usually because the character trying to Charge didn't see a bit of mud or a protruding root on the ground (difficult terrain). Or they could be passing through a spell effect that slows them down. Or they go past an enemy's threatened square and get hit by an AoO. Or whatever. So it turns out that a Charge wasn't actually possible, and they've just taken a move action or two instead; the character then needs to decide what (if anything) to do with the rest of their turn after their plan didn't work out.

I assumed the answer was something like that, but I can't find a citation to back it up. Is this just something that doesn't have rules explicitly covering it, or are they hidden in some general rule about interrupted actions in a completely different place?

[Andezzar]

Or they go past an enemy's threatened square and get hit by an AoO. How do AoOs generally stop a charge? AFAIK this only happens if the result of the AoO prevents the character from moving further (successful trip, deal enough HP damage to make him unable to act, etc.)

[Curmudgeon]

How do AoOs generally stop a charge? AFAIK this only happens if the result of the AoO prevents the character from moving further (successful trip, deal enough HP damage to make him unable to act, etc.)
Those (particularly tripping) would be some of the ways. You can also add Staggering Strike, a sneak attack feat so useful it's really a Rogue tax (along with Craven).

[Andezzar]

That's what I thought, the type of attack must have something that prevents the continuation of the charge. Initially I thought you wanted to say that AoOs stop the charge even if the character uses a normal melee attack when he takes the opportunity.