Spell casting. Can you cast epic spells before level 21?

[SangoProduction]

OK, probably never going to come up in the vast majority of games, but I found a prestige class in the Complete Drow handbook which advances spell casting (at every odd level of the class) by 2 per level, and at every even level by 1 per level.

Ignoring any balance concerns, does this mean someone with 19 levels of full caster and 1 level of this class can actually cast epic spells, because they would cast as though they were 21st level?

[meemaas]

Nope. Epic spells require the epic spellcasting feat, not casting as an X level caster. To take the feat you need something like 24 ranks in knowledge and to be epic, in other words at least character level 21

[sideswipe]

Nope. Epic spells require the epic spellcasting feat, not casting as an X level caster. To take the feat you need something like 24 ranks in knowledge and to be epic, in other words at least character level 21

kobold cheese will allow this, but otherwise you still need the ranks, so you need to increase the caps with bloodline cheese or feats as well.

[AnonymousPepper]

kobold cheese will allow this, but otherwise you still need the ranks, so you need to increase the caps with bloodline cheese or feats as well.

This. Stupid kobold tricks all the way down should allow it.

And if not, you can still realistically get just as much if not more done with DWK->Loredrake->Greater Draconic Rite of Passage->Spellhoarding->Wizard build of your choice than you could with epic spells anyway.

[SangoProduction]

Thanks for the answers.
As a bonus question: is there any benefit for those +x levels to spell casting class, once you pass level 20? Do these bonuses count as caster levels in and of themselves? (ie, the PRC isn't a spell casting class, but the levels that have bonus to spells do count, and higher bonuses than 1 count as a higher CL than your actual level)

[Psyren]

Thanks for the answers.
As a bonus question: is there any benefit for those +x levels to spell casting class, once you pass level 20? Do these bonuses count as caster levels in and of themselves? (ie, the PRC isn't a spell casting class, but the levels that have bonus to spells do count, and higher bonuses than 1 count as a higher CL than your actual level)

They will increase your caster level but you will not gain additional spell slots post-epic. In epic you only get more slots by:

- Increasing your casting stat for more bonus spells
- The "Improved Spell Capacity" epic feat for more levels of spell slots

The latter does not give you any 10+ spells to put in those slots, but you can fill them with metamagic spells or even just regular spells of lower level. (Though you may as well stick metamagic on them since they're going to be in higher slots anyway.)

[thecrimsondawn]

I always felt that was really dumb that you no longer progress in X spellcasting outside of caster levels, so I always house rule it like Kaedrin did in neverwinter nights 2 on his PrC pack - you still gain 2 spells per level if you prep, and you get 1 more spell known starting at spell level 1 moving up to lv 30 (ak - 9 more spells)

As far as Kobold cheese goes, if I remember right, your effective sorc level is higher with the sov archetype, but its not true levels, so you would still be capped at skill ranks.

[Flickerdart]

They will increase your caster level...
Actually, not all of them do. They were probably supposed to, but as written a bunch of them don't. Compare:


When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he became an archmage, he must decide to which class he adds each level of archmage for the purpose of determining spells per day.
No mention of CL. Archmages only gain spells per day and spells known.


From 2nd level on, when a new eldritch knight level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of eldritch knight to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.
Eldritch Knights do gain CL because of the last sentence.

[Psyren]

Actually, not all of them do. They were probably supposed to, but as written a bunch of them don't. Compare:


No mention of CL. Archmages only gain spells per day and spells known.


Eldritch Knights do gain CL because of the last sentence.

Archmage is a specific exception. Most other PrCs in 3.5 (i.e. the ones without specific epic progressions that override the general rule) fall under the "mathematical formula" clause.

[Flickerdart]

Archmage is a specific exception. Most other PrCs in 3.5 (i.e. the ones without specific epic progressions that override the general rule) fall under the "mathematical formula" clause.
Those aren't quotes from Epic PrCs, but from the regular ones (so a Wizard 20 that goes into Archmage at 21 would still have a CL of 20, by RAW). SRD doesn't even list an Epic Archmage. All the Epic casting PrCs have specific language to this effect - "The epic _________’s caster level increases by 1 per level gained above 10th".

[Psyren]

Those aren't quotes from Epic PrCs, but from the regular ones (so a Wizard 20 that goes into Archmage at 21 would still have a CL of 20, by RAW).

Even so, my point stands - Archmage may not mention CL, but other PrCs that do would give you that increase.

[Flickerdart]

Even so, my point stands - Archmage may not mention CL, but other PrCs that do would give you that increase.
That's literally what I said, though: "as written a bunch of them don't."