How many attacks does twf actually grant and how?

[Ardantis]

Reading the free rules supplement and am confused.

Is the off hand attack one bonus action to gain one attack?

Do you ever gain additional off hand attacks?

Is the bonus action always tied to a primary hand attack I.e. You must make a primary hand attack to make an off hand attack?

Can you or can you not attack with primary, move, then attack with off hand?

[HoarsHalberd]

Reading the free rules supplement and am confused.

Is the off hand attack one bonus action to gain one attack?

Do you ever gain additional off hand attacks?

Is the bonus action always tied to a primary hand attack I.e. You must make a primary hand attack to make an off hand attack?

Can you or can you not attack with primary, move, then attack with off hand?

1) Yes.
2) No.
3) Yes. Pg. 195 of PHB.


4) Consensus is yes but there's no RAW to back it up.

[RedMage125]

Can you or can you not attack with primary, move, then attack with off hand?



4) Consensus is yes but there's no RAW to back it up.

There absolutely is RAW to back it up.

PHB, page 189: "You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action."

Example: a Monk may attack, move, and use his Bonus Action to make the additional unarmed attack from Martial Arts. But if he wants to use Flurry of Blows, he MUST use it immediately after using his attack.

[Person_Man]

HoarsHalberd is correct.

To quote the rules:

"When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative. If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it."

"You can break up your movement on your turn, using some of your speed before and after your action. For example, if you have a speed of 30 feet, you can move 10 feet, take your action, and then move 20 feet.

Moving between Attacks

If you take an action that includes more than one weapon attack, you can break up your movement even further by moving between those attacks. For example, a fighter who can make two attacks with the Extra Attack feature and who has a speed of 25 feet could move 10 feet, make an attack, move 15 feet, and then attack again."


It's also important to note that there are many possible uses for your Bonus Action. This includes other methods of getting another attack, such as the Crossbow Expert Feat, Polearm Master Feat, or Spiritual Weapon spell.


And in general, most builds will only make 2 or 3 attacks most turns. (Though there are a few rare exceptions, like a high level Fighter using Action Surge). This was done intentionally by the designers in order to speed up the game.

[Ardantis]

Thanks for the clarification

[Mara]

Where does it say that TWF will ever grant you more than one additional attack?

[calebrus]

Where does it say that TWF will ever grant you more than one additional attack?

Nowhere. And no one was saying that it does. He was asking.
However, some groups are houseruling it so that the TWF bonus attack grants a second attack with that bonus action at level 11 to keep TWF competitive with other fighting styles.

[Galen]

There absolutely is RAW to back it up.

PHB, page 189: "You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action."

Example: a Monk may attack, move, and use his Bonus Action to make the additional unarmed attack from Martial Arts. But if he wants to use Flurry of Blows, he MUST use it immediately after using his attack.
Actually, the RAW you quoted doesn't back it up, but opposes it. The key part: "unless the bonus action's timing is specified". Now, let's read the TWF rules:


When you take the Attack action and attack with a light
melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can
use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee
weapon that you’re holding in the other hand.
Is the Bonus action timing specified? Yes. The qualifier "When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand" specifies the timing of the bonus action. Therefore, the bonus action of the offhand attack falls under the "unless the bonus action's timing is specified" clause. Therefore, "You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn" doesn't apply, and you can't take the TWF bonus action any time you wish.

[HoarsHalberd]

Actually, the RAW you quoted doesn't back it up, but opposes it. The key part: "unless the bonus action's timing is specified". Now, let's read the TWF rules:


Is the Bonus action timing specified? Yes. The qualifier "When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand" specifies the timing of the bonus action. Therefore, the bonus action of the offhand attack falls under the "unless the bonus action's timing is specified" clause. Therefore, "You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn" doesn't apply, and you can't take the TWF bonus action any time you wish.

Actually it neither opposes it or confirms it. It depends which form of when is being used. When can be used to mean both simultaneously and after. Thus why I said RAW doesn't back it up.

[Ralanr]

I wonder if barbarians make better TWF than fighters...Or at least make better use of it.

[HoarsHalberd]

I wonder if barbarians make better TWF than fighters...Or at least make better use of it.

In terms of DPR at level 20.

5(d8+5+0.15(d8))= 48.2-ish
3(d8+9+0.05(4d8) = 41.4 Also you'd have to take a dip in another class to get TWF. So it's not the best.

[Ralanr]

In terms of DPR at level 20.

5(d8+5+0.15(d8))= 48.2-ish
3(d8+9+0.05(4d8) = 41.4 Also you'd have to take a dip in another class to get TWF. So it's not the best.

I meant without the fighting style but with the feat.

Are those calculations accounting for rage damage? I'm not good with the maths.

[HoarsHalberd]

I meant without the fighting style but with the feat.

Are those calculations accounting for rage damage? I'm not good with the maths.

Yup, those calculations are accounting for rage damage. With the feat but no fighting style it would be one damage point lower as you trade +2 damage from STR to the first two for +4 damage but lose 5 damage from the last one.

[Easy_Lee]

One thing I would add: there is no concept of a mainhand or offhand this generation. When dual wielding, you pick which weapon to use when making any attack, and you add attribute damage to that attack, the exception being the bonus attack which must use the "other" weapon (not the one that produced the bonus) and does not add attribute damage. It would seem that 5e D&D characters are universally ambidextrous.

[Shining Wrath]

One thing I would add: there is no concept of a mainhand or offhand this generation. When dual wielding, you pick which weapon to use when making any attack, and you add attribute damage to that attack, the exception being the bonus attack which must use the "other" weapon (not the one that produced the bonus) and does not add attribute damage. It would seem that 5e D&D characters are universally ambidextrous.

There's also no sexual dimorphism - all females and males of the same species use the same entries on the PHB tables. That's actually hard to wrap the brain around, we always expect men to be larger.

[Ralanr]

There's also no sexual dimorphism - all females and males of the same species use the same entries on the PHB tables. That's actually hard to wrap the brain around, we always expect men to be larger.

Sounds like they're trying to avoid anything close to the whole "female characters get a -4 to strength" thing of the past.

[Shining Wrath]

Sounds like they're trying to avoid anything close to the whole "female characters get a -4 to strength" thing of the past.

In a world where halflings and elves are equally strong, size and strength are very loosely related.

[Ralanr]

In a world where halflings and elves are equally strong, size and strength are very loosely related.

On the plus side, halfings can lift as much as half-orcs. Downside? Halfings can lift as much as half-orcs.

[RedMage125]

Actually, the RAW you quoted doesn't back it up, but opposes it. The key part: "unless the bonus action's timing is specified". Now, let's read the TWF rules:


Is the Bonus action timing specified? Yes. The qualifier "When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand" specifies the timing of the bonus action. Therefore, the bonus action of the offhand attack falls under the "unless the bonus action's timing is specified" clause. Therefore, "You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn" doesn't apply, and you can't take the TWF bonus action any time you wish.

You are incorrect, sir, and perhaps you should look more closely at other examples of when timing IS specified.

"When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand" does not specify timing, but rather a prerequisite. one cannot attack with offhand as a Bonus Action until one has taken the Attack action with their normal Action. Once they have done so, they may use their Bonus Action at any subsequent point in time on their turn.

Contrast to the Monk's Flurry of Blows ability. This ability specifies it MUST be used IMMEDIATELY after the Attack action is made. So a Monk may Attack, Move, and then make a single unarmed strike as a Bonus Action as per Martial Arts (which is how TWF works); OR he may Attack, spend a ki point to use Flurry of Blows and make 2 unarmed attacks, and then Move. A Monk may not use Flurry of Blows if he has moved after completing his Attack action. HOWEVER, a Monk over level 5 who has the Extra Attack ability may make one attack, Move, and make their second attack (as per moving between attacks rules), and THEN use Flurry of Blows after completing their Attack Action.

What you quoted is simply the prerequisites for a Bonus Action Attack to be made, not timing. Because if you don't meet those prerequisites, you don't get to make the Bonus Action Attack. If you have a longsword in one hand and a dagger in the other, you may NOT get a second attack with the dagger because the longsword is not a light weapon, for example. NOTHING in the bit you quoted specified that it had to be IMMEDIATELY after the Attack action, only that it was after. If you still doubt me, look to the example of the Monk's Martial Arts ability vice his Flurry of Blows ability. The difference in language used is not an accident.

[Galen]

Contrast to the Monk's Flurry of Blows ability. This ability specifies it MUST be used IMMEDIATELY after the Attack action is madeWhile the Monk's ability is worded in a more water-tight way, both amount to essentially the same.


What you quoted is simply the prerequisites for a Bonus Action Attack to be made, not timing.They probably intended to make it a prerequisite, but it came out as timing.

"If you attack ... " = prerequisite
"When you attack ... " = timing

I am willing to concede that by RAI, the bonus attack can be made at any time after the main attack, but not by RAW.

[Easy_Lee]

Regarding timing of the bonus action, it all comes down to whether or not you believe the word "when" means "this other thing must happen at the exact same time." However, if it was intended that players not be able to move between this and the other attack, I suspect that the book would explicitly say so. One may normally move between an action and bonus action after all. As said, the use of different language for flurry of blows further supports the notion that one may move between the action and bonus (assuming that monks are not intended to be able to move between flurry attacks).

[Galen]

Regarding timing of the bonus action, it all comes down to whether or not you believe the word "when" means "this other thing must happen at the exact same time." However, if it was intended that players not be able to move between this and the other attack, I suspect that the book would explicitly say so.I have already conceded the designer intent was likely to allow movement. They failed to communicate that intent in words, though.

[HoarsHalberd]

I have already conceded the designer intent was likely to allow movement. They failed to communicate that intent in words, though.

They did fail to communicate that intent, but not in the manner you state. When is a word with multiple definitions.

"conjunction


1 At or during the time that:
I loved maths when I was at school
MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES
1.1 After:
call me when you’ve finished." http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/when

The intent appears to be that you can make the bonus attack only after you've attacked with your action. However the use of a word with multiple meanings leaves this up to RAI to clarify.

[RedMage125]

While the Monk's ability is worded in a more water-tight way, both amount to essentially the same.

They probably intended to make it a prerequisite, but it came out as timing.

"If you attack ... " = prerequisite
"When you attack ... " = timing

I am willing to concede that by RAI, the bonus attack can be made at any time after the main attack, but not by RAW.

It absolutely is RAW. The RAW for Bonus Actions say that they can ONLY be used "when a special ability, spell, or other feature of the game states that you can do something as a bonus action" (PHB, page 189). So, in this case, you can attack with a light weapon in your offhand as a bonus action IF and ONLY IF you have used the Attack Action to make an attack with a light weapon in your main hand.

The RAW then go on to state that "You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified". (PHB, page 189). Attacking with the light weapon in main hand is what ALLOWED the offhand attack to occur, it did not specify timing. Ergo, as long as the Bonus Action takes place AFTER the regular Attack, and still on that character's turn, it can be done any time during that turn.

Monks, likewise, under Martial Arts "When you use the Attack action with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action" (PHB, page 78). This, like TWF, is the specification of PERMISSION to take a bonus action. NOT timing. Nothing in there specifies timing, save that a monk cannot use the Bonus Action to attack before the Attack Action. Flurry of Blows, on the other hand, says "Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make 2 unarmed strikes as a bonus action" (PHB, page 78).

You also ignore a part of the text wherein it states "[b]you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in your other hand" (PHB, page 195). Bonus Actions are separate from Actions, and you CAN take this Bonus Action when you make an attack with your main hand with a light weapon in one hand. It does not specify WHEN this must be taken, as long as it is AFTER the Attack action. So you absolutely, positively may, according to RAW, Attack, Move, and then use a Bonus Action to attack with your off-hand weapon.

[Magic Myrmidon]

One thing I would add: there is no concept of a mainhand or offhand this generation. When dual wielding, you pick which weapon to use when making any attack, and you add attribute damage to that attack, the exception being the bonus attack which must use the "other" weapon (not the one that produced the bonus) and does not add attribute damage. It would seem that 5e D&D characters are universally ambidextrous.

Does this basically mean that if you miss the first attack, you can say that was your bonus offhand attack, and then say your main attack is the weapon you hit with, so you get your attribute bonus?

That's a a little fiddly, I guess, but it could be a cool bonus for TWF.

[RedMage125]

Does this basically mean that if you miss the first attack, you can say that was your bonus offhand attack, and then say your main attack is the weapon you hit with, so you get your attribute bonus?

That's a a little fiddly, I guess, but it could be a cool bonus for TWF.

No, because you do not get the Bonus offhand attack until AFTER your mainhand attack. So your first attack is ALWAYS the one using your main hand and your full Action.

[Magic Myrmidon]

Bummer. I mean, it makes sense, but it would be a cool trade off of consistent damage versus max damage with TWF versus THF.

[Doug Lampert]

Bummer. I mean, it makes sense, but it would be a cool trade off of consistent damage versus max damage with TWF versus THF.

Rogues get that feature, they can sneak attack with whichever attack hits.

Which is why rogues are the most likely two weapon fighters in this edition. There are lots of other rogue uses for a bonus action, but "another chance to sneak attack" beats most of them.

[RedMage125]

The Rogue in the game I DM for took the Dual Wielder feat, now uses two rapiers. That, or he throws 2 darts as a ranged attack. Either way, two attempts per round for Sneak Attack

[Easy_Lee]

Bummer. I mean, it makes sense, but it would be a cool trade off of consistent damage versus max damage with TWF versus THF.

The only advantage of TWF is the extra attack. This would be relatively balanced in a featless game, though still a bit weak in the late game. However, since there are feats which yield an extra attack just as easily, which includes attribute damage, this makes TWF an inferior choice for damage.

The TWF feat raises your AC by one and your average damage per strike by one (assuming you use optimal weapons). It's like taking the armored fighting style and half of the dueling fighting style.

For the same number of feats and fighting styles:

Crossbows provide range, higher accuracy (breaks bounded accuracy) and remove the penalty for attacking in melee. They will do 1 damage less than dual wielding, unless a heavy crossbow is used and bonus action forgone. By being ranged, crossbows improve defense.
Polearms provide a bonus (which benefits from GWM quite often), reach, and extra reaction attacks. Like crossbows, polearms provide enhanced defense through reach (you can sometimes kill a target before they reach you, on their turn no less).
Shields via shield master provide a bonus action shove, two bonus AC from the Shield (more if magic), greatly enhanced defense against certain dexterity saves (which can make you more resistant to such effects than even a rogue or monk), and the choice of dueling, armored, or defensive for the fighting style chosen.
Great weapons give you the most powerful damage option, an effective +1.8-ish damage per swing from GWM, an option to deal 10 bonus damage per hit at reduced accuracy (fantastic option in certain conditions), and a bonus attack when you crit or kill a foe.
Deal wield gives you a bonus, +1 AC, and +1 damage/attack (again, only if using the strongest weapons).

There are no special maneuvers for dual wield. Also, the dual wielder needs twice as many magic items as his teammates for his damage and accuracy to keep up, and won't benefit as much from having magic weapon, elemental weapon, or haste cast on him (depending on DM interpretation of crossbow expert, these things may also apply to crossbow builds).

It's even worse without the fighting style, since the non-dual wielder will deal an additional 5 damage per round with their bonus while the duel wielder will not (shield master unaffected) and will thus do more damage overall. This means that rogues, barbarians, valor bards, and others without a fighting style trade considerably lower damage for one point of AC by taking the dual wielder feat over another weapon feat option (or they can take shield master if they have the prof, which would be an equally good option regardless of having a fighting style).

[squiggit]

How does crossbow expert's crossbow TWF compare/contrast with normal TWF (or other options)?

[Easy_Lee]

How does crossbow expert's crossbow TWF compare/contrast with normal TWF (or other options)?

A crossbow expert can use a rapier in one hand and a hand crossbow in the other, since wielding two non-light weapons is allowed for anyone, one just doesn't get the dual wield bonus.

Compared to taking the feat dual wielder and having the two weapon fighting style, crossbow expert alone does one less damage on the bonus attack and has one less AC, but can fire freely into melee, is fully capable of ranged attacks, and still retains the ability to reaction attack with the rapier.

Compared to dual wielder alone, or when used with the archery fighting style, crossbow expert is in many ways superior and presents no real disadvantages.

[Ardantis]

The game I'll be joining next is an Encounters game in which feats are disallowed.

Would it be advantageous to dual-wield as a Rogue? I know it's competing with Cunning Action for movement/disengage/hide, but it gives you an extra shot at Sneak Attack in an all-out round.

I don't know the party makeup, but the store has three groups for Encounters and I'm sure I'll have another melee class with me.

[Magic Myrmidon]

It can be, from what I've read. Basically, it gives you an extra chance to get your sneak attack each turn, if you miss the first attack.

[Easy_Lee]

The game I'll be joining next is an Encounters game in which feats are disallowed.

Would it be advantageous to dual-wield as a Rogue? I know it's competing with Cunning Action for movement/disengage/hide, but it gives you an extra shot at Sneak Attack in an all-out round.

I don't know the party makeup, but the store has three groups for Encounters and I'm sure I'll have another melee class with me.

In a feat-less game, dual wield is fine on a rogue. I'd recommend shortsword + dagger, so you can choose to throw the dagger if you need to. Rapier + hand crossbow is still viable, you just don't get the bonus attack (you would choose which to attack with each turn, and wouldn't have a free hand).

[Yuki Akuma]

At first level, dual wielding is the best thing a melee Rogue can possibly do and there's no reason not to just use it every combat round.

Starting at second level you get other uses for your bonus action, but it's still very good. Essentially, on a Rogue, it's not so much the extra damage from the second attack you're concerned about - it's the extra chance to hit and therefore get to Sneak Attack.

My general advice for melee combat for a second level or higher Rogue is to stay hidden or at least out of melee range as often as possible, using Cunning Action to pop in and Sneak Attack enemies and then withdraw. If you miss, and you really need to take out your target now, use your bonus action to attack again instead. Otherwise, you should prioritise Cunning Action every round. If there aren't any enemies close enough for you to move to and then move away from, throw your dagger instead. Make sure to carry a lot of daggers.