Noticing equipment is missing.

[somethingrandom]

Of course the first time someone tries to use the missing piece of equipment they will notice that it is missing but assuming they did not notice when it was taken what sort of roll would be required and how often to notice.
E.g A rouge steals a Wizards spell component pouch with a successful Sleight of hand check and the Wizard fails their Perception check to notice. Of coarse the wizard will notice that they don't have their spell component pouch the next time they try to cast a spell which requires it. Would the wizard have a chance to notice that their spell component pouch is missing before that?

[Karl Aegis]

I would think rouge would be pretty easy to spot.

[Surpriser]

Usually, characters are assumed to know what sort of equipment they own and carry (the same way that all characters are assumed to face in all directions at once)

However, if they failed the initial perception check against the thief, they don't notice anything amiss at least until the thief is well out of reach. The rules don't say how long this takes, so it is up to the DM.

A second perception (or Wisdom) check after one minute and a third after one hour seems rather fitting in general. The DC is either a flat 10 or the Sleight of Hand check result of the thief if they took appropriate precautions (such as replacing the pouch with a similar one or filling the empty pouch with gravel).
If they don't cast a spell until then, they should notice it automatically the next time they rest for the night.

Different items might warrant different checks (or provide bonuses/penalties on the roll). A small item normally stowed away in a backpack would not be missed at all until the first time it is used. Something more obvious (like a weapon or a cloak) would not even require a second check - after one minute (or as soon as the thief is gone, whichever is shorter), they notice that it is missing.

Note: These are just suggestions how I would rule in such a situation, YMMV.

[Psyren]

I think Surpriser's suggestions are fine, but there is no RAW answer other than "when the plot calls for them to notice."

One thing I will add though is that hopefully this is an NPC rogue stealing from the wizard, and not some lame attempt at PvP.


I would think rouge would be pretty easy to spot.

Heh.

[Grooke]

There a couple of additional time you could either allow him to notice or give him another check. For example if he tries to prepare his spells, or the party goes on a shopping spree (one could imagine a Wizard reflexively checks his component stock in town).

[Maglubiyet]

I would think any competent adventurer would have a shot at noticing missing equipment before it's needed, especially if the lives of him and his companions depend on it. Give a roll once or twice a day at least.

I'm basing this off my own experiences. Over the course of my last two week kayak trip I managed to lose four knives. I think only one of them was a total surprise when I needed to cut something -- the others I discovered during downtime. Generally, I compulsively check my gear every time I stop somewhere and before I start again. When you're out on the trail trying to move quickly, you lose stuff, which is why I pack a lot of backups for necessary items.

I imagine adventurers, who are moving quickly, getting into fights, falling into crevasses, getting captured/knocked out/injured, traveling in pickpocket-laden markets, etc. would take frequent stock of their many dangling pouches and bags.

[TrollCapAmerica]

and this boys and girls is why you ward you components pouch carry a false spell components pouch that is also warded carry the real pouch around your neck as well as your secondary decoy pouch

[Psyren]

Or just Eschew Materials. Yeah, do that.

[dascarletm]

and this boys and girls is why you ward you components pouch carry a false spell components pouch that is also warded carry the real pouch around your neck as well as your secondary decoy pouch

And, if you do get your components stolen, you brutally dispose of the thief in a public way. This way no one will ever dare to cross you again.

[Ashtagon]

I would think rouge would be pretty easy to spot.

As always, less is more :smallredface:

[Darth Ultron]

I don't think a check one an hour is even too much for most people. Even more so for Very Important Things.

I camp and hike and fish and such a lot. Loosing, dropping and forgetting things is very common(even more so for kids). It's worth the time to check all the time if you have important items. For example, a phone check every time you get up after sitting down.

[goto124]

Put a note in your moneybag:

'I prepared Explosive Runes this morning.'

[TrollCapAmerica]

And, if you do get your components stolen, you brutally dispose of the thief in a public way. This way no one will ever dare to cross you again.

And keep his corpse around and animated to lug around extra spells component bags as well as scrolls wands staves and golf clubs. It sends a message and it's functional

[Tvtyrant]

One thing I will add though is that hopefully this is an NPC rogue stealing from the wizard, and not some lame attempt at PvP.


I would hope rouge would be a none-player character. So little to contribute to battle, although possibly masterwork diplomacy item.

[Psyren]

I would hope rouge would be a none-player character. So little to contribute to battle, although possibly masterwork diplomacy item.

If a player can't make a rogue that can contribute, there is one of three possibilities at fault: either (a) the group is so high-power that all the non-casters are shut out anyway, (b) the GM is actively working against them by banning options or ignoring WBL, or (c) that player is simply not very good at building rogues.

[dascarletm]

If a player can't make a rogue that can contribute, there is one of three possibilities at fault: either (a) the group is so high-power that all the non-casters are shut out anyway, (b) the GM is actively working against them by banning options or ignoring WBL, or (c) that player is simply not very good at building rogues.

or (d) rouge is different than rogue....:smallwink:

[Psyren]

or (d) rouge is different than rogue....:smallwink:

...I walked right into that one. :smallredface:

[somethingrandom]

or (d) rouge is different than rogue....:smallwink:

Firstly thank you everyone for the replies.
Secondly The situation has not come up yet this thread is a bit of forward planing but it is intened for a NPC rogue not a PC one.
And lastly I really should try to watch my spelling more.

[Barstro]

A second perception (or Wisdom) check after one minute and a third after one hour seems rather fitting in general. The DC is either a flat 10 or the Sleight of Hand check result of the thief if they took appropriate precautions (such as replacing the pouch with a similar one or filling the empty pouch with gravel).
If they don't cast a spell until then, they should notice it automatically the next time they rest for the night.

I understand this view, especially from the Players' perspective, but I disagree with it. By definition, this is metagaming.

Were I a player or DM in a "stealing from party" scenario (which I came up with due to a topic of Kenders in the party), I would have the DM make all rolls in secret and convey the results likewise.

Kender; DM rolls in secret about what loose items were "found" (low DC).
Jerk Thief; same as above.
Jerk Thief trying for something specific; same as above, with a rather high DC.

As far as noticing, it would be case-by-case. Automatic noticing the item is gone when looking for it, obviously. DC getting lower for each missing item. When the roll is met, just tell the player that the PC cannot find the item. Then it's up to the player to decide how the PC will respond to be more alert.

Sadly, phrases like, "um... roll a perception check", "your pack seems lighter", "spidey sense is tingling" just clue players in to things that the PC would not notice.

On a related note, you DMs out there should randomly say things like "The grass seems especially green today", "your pack feels lighter", "you catch an unusual hint of lavender that reminds you of your mother's Harvest Day soap." See how long simple passing thoughts that enter our minds each day can derail a game when special attention is drawn to them. BTW, after they spend 15 minutes checking the pack, let them know they simply did a great job packing that day and the weight is well distributed.:smallbiggrin:

[Nibbens]

My two copper: The missing item should be automatically noticed - no roll needed. The DM should have the item noticed the first chance the players are not in a stressful situation.

In a fight - no.
In a dungeon where they have to be aware of their surroundings rather than themselves - no.
Walking down the road - yes.
Staying at an inn - yes.

The idea here is that the first chance the PC stops to catch his breath (light activity, or walking, etc) he will automatically notice the missing item.

If the item is stolen during downtime, well, its a DMs call, then.

[Yanisa]

(Paranoid) Wizards will notice their stuff missing within seconds. (http://www.awkwardzombie.com/index.php?comic=031411) :smalltongue:

[Jowgen]

If you use 3.5 material, Dungeonscape has rules for how long it takes (1dX mintues me thinks) for a bar-patron to notice that their coinpurse is gone. Could adapt that, me thinks.

[Psyren]

(Paranoid) Wizards will notice their stuff missing within seconds. (http://www.awkwardzombie.com/index.php?comic=031411) :smalltongue:

I have turned my room upside down before hunting for the glasses I was currently wearing.

[Surpriser]

Were I a player or DM in a "stealing from party" scenario (which I came up with due to a topic of Kenders in the party), I would have the DM make all rolls in secret and convey the results likewise.

Sadly, phrases like, "um... roll a perception check", "your pack seems lighter", "spidey sense is tingling" just clue players in to things that the PC would not notice.

That is more of a general issue of which rolls the players should make themselves and which should be done in secret by the DM. This depends a lot on the party, which is why I did not say who should make the checks in my post.

Having the DM roll all Perception checks in general can be useful or even necessary. On the other hand, it introduces even more work for the DM, so it is necessary to find a balance.

For this specific example, I would have the PCs roll Perception checks from time to time anyway, even if there is nothing to be noticed. Then I can also have them roll to notice the equipment missing, without clueing them in that something happened. "You don't notice anything amiss" then simply becomes the regular answer that does not necessarily mean that they failed the check. Of course this does not solve the problem of "I rolled a 2 - better check everything just to be sure", so secret DM rolls might still be warranted.

[Psyren]

The problem I have with stealing from the party is that it's the kind of thing that only works once. Not to say that you can't steal from them again, but after the first time, they are going to be saying "I check my pack and all my gear" every 5 minutes in just about every campaign you run after that, more or less for the rest of your life. I have to wonder if that one "gotcha" moment is worth all the future paranoia it will produce.

[Azoth]

The problem I have with stealing from the party is that it's the kind of thing that only works once. Not to say that you can't steal from them again, but after the first time, they are going to be saying "I check my pack and all my gear" every 5 minutes in just about every campaign you run after that, more or less for the rest of your life. I have to wonder if that one "gotcha" moment is worth all the future paranoia it will produce.

Unless used for small inconsequential things. I have played a rogue who routinely stole from the party, but nothing major. Steal the Wizard's dagger because it is thinner and has a finer point...then use it to clean your nails and leave it where he can find it. Steal the Fighter's helmet because you needed a small pot and didn't have one, but leave it where he can find it.

Players then just get used to blaming missing items on an inconsiderate party mate and yell at you. It is a variation of a prankster character.

[Psyren]

Unless used for small inconsequential things. I have played a rogue who routinely stole from the party, but nothing major. Steal the Wizard's dagger because it is thinner and has a finer point...then use it to clean your nails and leave it where he can find it. Steal the Fighter's helmet because you needed a small pot and didn't have one, but leave it where he can find it.

Players then just get used to blaming missing items on an inconsiderate party mate and yell at you. It is a variation of a prankster character.

...How in the nine hells would you steal the fighter's helmet without him noticing? And that's even before you consider that it might be a helmet of telepathy or something.

But I was specifically referring to the DM stealing from the party there, out in a dungeon or the wilderness etc.. If the other PCs are stealing from each other... well honestly, that's even worse, though I would hope they aren't doing that in a dangerous or potentially combative situation.

[Surpriser]

...How in the nine hells would you steal the fighter's helmet without him noticing? And that's even before you consider that it might be a helmet of telepathy or something.
Obviously, while he is not wearing it :smalltongue:


The problem I have with stealing from the party is that it's the kind of thing that only works once. Not to say that you can't steal from them again, but after the first time, they are going to be saying "I check my pack and all my gear" every 5 minutes in just about every campaign you run after that, more or less for the rest of your life. I have to wonder if that one "gotcha" moment is worth all the future paranoia it will produce.
This can become a problem the same way as compulsive trap-checking, distrusting every single NPC they meet and hoarding of abilities.
As long as the DM's action makes sense in the context of the encounter and is not used simply to screw the party over, there really should not be a problem (and if there is, it is time to talk to the players OOC).

[tomandtish]

I have turned my room upside down before hunting for the glasses I was currently wearing.

Real conversation with my wife

Phone ring.s I answer it.

Her: "Can you pick something up on your way to work?

Me: "No. I'm running late and I can't find my phone".

Her: ...pause... "You can't find your phone"? (slight squeak in the voice)

Me: "No. This is serious. I'm expecting (an important call), remember"?

Her: "Well, this is a long shot, but I think I might know where it is. Go into the bathroom and let me know when you are there".

Me: (after walking into the bathroom) "OK, I'm there".

Her: OK, you see the bathroom counter. Look very carefully about 3 feet above it".

Me: "What do you .... Oh shut up! And stop laughing!"

On the other hand, her bad habit is putting things in strange places. She once lost the TV remote. I found it in the refrigerator IN her box of left over pizza. She'd apparently put it in there while getting some.

Yes, I know I still come out worse.

[atemu1234]

And, if you do get your components stolen, you brutally dispose of the thief in a public way. This way no one will ever dare to cross you again.

I believe that there are a few BOVD spells that can do this.

Mwahahahaha.