Suggestions for Balancing Party

[Amanil]

Preface: this isn't a game on this forum, so don't go witch-hunting. That said, I'm being intentionally vague so as to make identifying the group somewhat trickier.

In a game I am a player in, the party (level 1) consists of:

Tier 4 (me)
Tier 1
Tier 3
Tier 5
It's recently come to light that the ability scores of the PCs are very varied. This, of course, is the nature of rolling for ability scores (something I advised against, but here we are). As it stands, the player of the tier 1 character came out in an OOC post stating their ability scores. If bought with a point-buy system they would have well into 50 points, whereas my PC has 32 (method was 4d6b3, for interest - I thought I got lucky).

I've raised concern that the imbalance is likely to get worse over time unless both the DM and players essentially work on keeping things in check. The DM is relatively new, and on top of my suggestions (I'll state later, to avoid pre-loading the question) I was curious what you folks thought may be appropriate ways to keep the power levels (at least remotely) in check over time. It goes without saying that as the levels go up the tier 1 is going to runaway, power-wise, but any suggestions to keep the rest of the party mechanically relevant for as long as possible would be welcome.

Just to get it out of the way, we're not looking to create new characters just yet (if folks start dying off we will, and we'll hopefully use that as a way to balance things). The DM is relatively new, and is trusting me to hold his hand a bit on some matters, so I'd like to provide some constructive suggestions if possible.

[Surpriser]

Up to which level are you planning on playing? The Tier 1 casters usually start to outshine the others from about lvl 6-10; if you don't plan to reach these areas (or exceed them by much), the tiers are not such a big problem.

Concerning the ability scores, here the effect is reversed: At the higher levels, it does not really matter that much, whether you have a 20 or 22 in some stat. For the low levels (and especially at level 1), the difference will be a lot more noticeable.

For concrete suggestions, it would help to know the classes of all characters.
In general (and probably most importantly): Talk to the player of the Tier 1 character. Explain why such an imbalance can cause problems for the group and ask them to tone the optimization down a bit (given that your DM is quite new, this would be a good idea anyway) It is definitely possible to have fun without making gods kneel.

[Grooke]

Also important: does the tier 1 know he is tier 1? If he's a wizard that just wants to throw Fireballs around from a wiz20 build, he might not ended up overshadowing anyone.

[Amanil]

Up to which level are you planning on playing? The Tier 1 casters usually start to outshine the others from about lvl 6-10; if you don't plan to reach these areas (or exceed them by much), the tiers are not such a big problem.

Concerning the ability scores, here the effect is reversed: At the higher levels, it does not really matter that much, whether you have a 20 or 22 in some stat. For the low levels (and especially at level 1), the difference will be a lot more noticeable.

For concrete suggestions, it would help to know the classes of all characters.
In general (and probably most importantly): Talk to the player of the Tier 1 character. Explain why such an imbalance can cause problems for the group and ask them to tone the optimization down a bit (given that your DM is quite new, this would be a good idea anyway) It is definitely possible to have fun without making gods kneel.

It's loosely an adventure path, I believe, so in theory 1 through 20. As with all games there's a good chance of it dying before even remotely then.

I agree that ability scores aren't such an issue at higher levels - class features, spellcasting, feats and so on are massively more defining.

The classes are (in the order as above): Scout, Druid, Duskblade, Fighter.

My main concern currently is that the person playing the druid seems to know exactly what they're doing with it (an 18 in Con and Wis, for one) and has shunned quite a bit of flavorful stuff in favour of the more useful things (so no real fluff skills, for example). I don't know the player overly well, but so far he seems to be trying to lead the party. As a player I can deal with that - I'm experienced enough and then some to tactfully suggest they should essentially "let others play with the toy" for a bit, and I expect it will be well received.


Also important: does the tier 1 know he is tier 1? If he's a wizard that just wants to throw Fireballs around from a wiz20 build, he might not ended up overshadowing anyone.

He knows. Druid, already talking about some Wildshape options, and discussing some non-core feats with the DM (we're restricted to core plus Complete), which hints very strongly to me that they're going to want to optimise. They strike me as the sort to enjoy, for want of a better phrase, "getting their way" with regards to winning (i.e. they enjoy ripping apart a whole bunch of enemies, dishing out a load of damage, wielding mighty-magics, good old fashioned heroic stuff). That's fine, and I'm flexible enough to not be personally worried about not being able to contribute significantly in combats at a later level because I view the whole thing as more of a roleplaying experience, but I'm doubtful of it being a good foundation for the longevity of the group.

[sideswipe]

a problem i have encountered is people rolling in secret. and stating higher rolls then they achieved. i do not allow rolling unless there is a witness, in person. and its someone i trust.

[eggynack]

I dunno that there's that much you can do without changing classes around, or maybe trying to get things toned down (though that might not even work). Druids are tricky, is the thing. With something like a wizard, high optimization tends to be relatively party friendly, holding to the god wizard archetype, and there are some ways to shut them down for at least a little while. By contrast, a highly optimized druid tends to do the things everyone else is doing in far better fashion, controlling the battlefield and face stabbing along with anything else you want, and shutting one down is nigh impossible without going real deep. There's always something else to fall back on, even if the druid gets completely blindsided, and they don't really rely on anything for their abilities. Doesn't hurt that much that the scores are as they are, even early on, but it doesn't help either.

[Telonius]

On the plus side, half of that 50-point-buy Druid's stats aren't going to be of much use to him as soon as he Wild Shapes.

[sideswipe]

On the plus side, half of that 50-point-buy Druid's stats aren't going to be of much use to him as soon as he Wild Shapes.

18, 18, 18, 10, 8, 8 .... thats 50 points and works fin with a druid wildshape.

[Telonius]

.... okay. Yeah, calling shenanigans on that die roll. If it were something like 10-11-14-16-17-18 that would be one thing. But three triple 6s and two 8s? All even numbers? That takes it from "really lucky" to "will receive a nice visit from a pit boss if he tries that in Vegas."

[Amanil]

18, 18, 18, 10, 8, 8 .... thats 50 points and works fin with a druid wildshape.

Haven't got the stats to hand, but it's an 18 in both Constitution and Wisdom. Agreed that most else is moot, but for comparison literally every ability is at least equal to my character's, giving him absurd saves (Dex, Con and Wis are highest three stats), decent regular melee ability until he gets Wildshape. I don't know the other PC's abilities, and really I'm not overly interested - I was just somewhat taken aback when the druid revealed his.

It's also over 50 points, something like 54-57. No stat under 12, and I remember the total modifier is +14 (for comparison, my actually pretty damned ideal Scout has +9).

[Amanil]

.... okay. Yeah, calling shenanigans on that die roll. If it were something like 10-11-14-16-17-18 that would be one thing. But three triple 6s and two 8s? All even numbers? That takes it from "really lucky" to "will receive a nice visit from a pit boss if he tries that in Vegas."

The distribution above wasn't from me - the actual scores were something like 18, 18 15, 14, 13, 12 (that sort of thing, maybe a point or two here or there). Ignoring the likeliness of the above scores (no witness for the rolls), I agree that it's suspect enough to sow doubt, which is never a good thing. It's up there with another (entirely unrelated) game I'm playing where someone conveniently rolled three 100s in a row (where a result of 100 is incredibly good) with nothing but his word for it.

This is why I a) insist on using a verifiable roller (forum roller, for example), and b) use point-buy for ability generation (variable point scores for tiers is something I've toyed with, but found that the multiclass provisos later on are a bit too much faff to deal with - that's a discussion for another thread).

[Surpriser]

If the player in question is open to discussion and understands the problem, you could propose switching to the Shapeshift variant from PHBII. It takes a lot of cheese out of wild shape. While it says that you lose the animal companion, I can even see giving it back at level 5 (when Wild Shape normally would come online) as an option.

Be aware that they might not like this proposal at all, as it does represent a reduction in overall power, especially if they know the best splatbook forms.

With the classes you have, the druid can do just about anything they can, only better. The only exception to this might be the duskblade and the fighter could find some niche trick to excel in, but overall, they won't have anything substantial where the druid could not simply say: "Let me do that, I'm better at it than you"

EDIT: In any case, even with shapeshift the scout is doomed to pale in comparison to the druid. Maybe consider finding a different class unless the player is interested mainly in the roleplay aspect and not so much in contributing to the parties skills.

[Gandariel]

Always go for the "minimum intervention" fix.
if everyone is having fun and nothing wrong is happening, don't touch anything.

If the need were to arise, still do it in the simplest way.

Have the loot contain better items for the weaker players / have them do a tiny solo quest for some sort of upgrade.

Ban (or just say " it is not in the local magic market") some particularly good items (wilding clasp, i think is the name?) for the druid, or say there are no Flesh raker Dinosaurs around for him to take as companion.

Politely hint the other players for optimisation, so that they find a niche they are the best at.

Say "you must have seen an animal before you can Wildshape into it " to shut off strong, exotic forms (but be lenient)

If this player were to *really* be a problem, you could do radical things like a fluff curse that shuts off your Wildshape, or his animal companion dying and him being unable to find another.

(These are not meant to be permanent. It would be an added story element, where he has to fix it by doing something. Still, a temporary nerf is nice )

and of course, if need be talk to the guy and solve it OOC

[Amanil]

If the player in question is open to discussion and understands the problem, you could propose switching to the Shapeshift variant from PHBII. It takes a lot of cheese out of wild shape. While it says that you lose the animal companion, I can even see giving it back at level 5 (when Wild Shape normally would come online) as an option.

Be aware that they might not like this proposal at all, as it does represent a reduction in overall power, especially if they know the best splatbook forms.

With the classes you have, the druid can do just about anything they can, only better. The only exception to this might be the duskblade and the fighter could find some niche trick to excel in, but overall, they won't have anything substantial where the druid could not simply say: "Let me do that, I'm better at it than you"

EDIT: In any case, even with shapeshift the scout is doomed to pale in comparison to the druid. Maybe consider finding a different class unless the player is interested mainly in the roleplay aspect and not so much in contributing to the parties skills.

Solid suggestion with regards to the variant (it's what I'm pushing any of my players to go for rather than the core druid), and it's my starting gambit with regards to negotiating a compromise - I doubt they'll go for it, but you never know.

I agree that the scout is going to be - and already is, with the exception of a couple of skills (trained only ones, as the druid's high ability scores give them a solid base in every skill) - outclassed very quickly. As I'm playing the scout I'm not overly worried about this - personally, taking a sideline might be a refreshing change. I'm expecting the Fighter/Duskblade to find a niche and go with it, and they'll soon be overtaken in raw damage output once Wildshape comes in to play.


Always go for the "minimum intervention" fix.
if everyone is having fun and nothing wrong is happening, don't touch anything.

If the need were to arise, still do it in the simplest way.

Have the loot contain better items for the weaker players / have them do a tiny solo quest for some sort of upgrade.

Ban (or just say " it is not in the local magic market") some particularly good items (wilding clasp, i think is the name?) for the druid, or say there are no Flesh raker Dinosaurs around for him to take as companion.

Politely hint the other players for optimisation, so that they find a niche they are the best at.

If this player were to *really* be a problem, you could do radical things like a fluff curse that shuts off your Wildshape, or his animal companion dying and him being unable to find another.

(These are not meant to be permanent. It would be an added story element, where he has to fix it by doing something. Still, a temporary nerf is nice )

and of course, if need be talk to the guy.

I'm fine with basically coming along for the ride, on the basis that the DM is aware that anything that challenges the druid will likely wipe the floor with the rest of the party. A lot can be said with loot distribution, though something more interesting than a few pluses to stats here and there I think is necessary - an item that lets them do something that the druid can't do would be ideal, even if that does limit things somewhat - and making sure the druid doesn't get the absolutely ideal gear to optimise would take the edge of somewhat.

The other players are relatively experienced, and I'm not sensing that their characters are under-optimised. At level 1 it's hard to really mess up a build, of course, but I'm expecting them to be quite solid for their respective tiers.

Talking to the player is my first port of call (or, more specifically, voicing concern to the DM and making sure it's addressed - it's his game, not mine). I don't think people not having fun will be an issue, but it's more about making sure everyone feels like they contributed. Defeating a dragon as a party is awesome, watching the druid Wildshape into something and ripping it apart is cool but not very rewarding.

Up until level 5 I'm not seeing any problems. Who knows, the game may not even last that long? I do think it's something worth watching from early on, though.

[Surpriser]

Yes, it seems like for the first few levels there won't be any major problems.

A few additional ideas to propose to your DM:
- Limit item availability in general. This is relevant only if it turns out that the Druid actually is over-optimized. In such a case, simply saying no to that wilding clasp will help both keep the power levels in check and reduce the amount of stuff the DM needs to keep in mind.
- Enforce the "Animal Companions are animals" restriction. By that I mean: No talking, no sharing of senses ("My wolf goes around the corner - what does he see?"), no intricate tactical maneuvers and so on. Stick to the 2 INT and the tricks they learnt.
- Include encounters that need multiple people to resolve. No matter how powerful the druid is, he can't be in two places at once (well, at low levels, anyway).
- Include this:

Say "you must have seen an animal before you can Wildshape into it " to shut off strong, exotic forms (but be lenient)
A reasonable adaptation: All core animals are automatically known, if they want splatbook forms, they will have to search for them.
In my games, we once even had the rule that you had to stay in contact with the creature for at least a round to allow "transfer" of the form. It was hilarious to watch the druid try to grapple the Tyrannosaurus :smallamused: