Debuffer Cleric for Mid to Low OP campaign

[sjeshin]

I am making a cleric for my mid to low op group. We have a very effective TWF fighter / tripper with a dire flail and combat reflexes. We have a rogue / warlock multiclass that can spam darkness and always see in it. Our last party member besides me is a rapid / multi / “arrow-chaingun” ranger. I hope that lends an idea to their optimization level.
We are playing in a campaign where we are all evil, the bad guys, trying to take over the major city we are in. To avoid being way over optimized as my original character was going to be, I want to go more thematic. I just want the character to feel evil. My plan is to take necromancy and evil domains, the mother cyst feat, reach spell feat, DMM reach spell feat, and I don’t know for the last one. I am human lvl 7 and I’m just looking for ways to boost my DC’s for all my necromancy effects that allow one.
My main purpose is a good roleplaying way to take over the city (see necrotic domination), and debuffing the baddies my brother can’t trip. Reach spell is for most of the effects that would normally be touch, so that I don’t have to run all over the battlefield. Any ideas to boost dc’s / make my debuffing or cysts more awesome?

[Grooke]

Chain Spell is great for debuffing multiple enemies at once.
If you are really centered on necromancy debuffs, (Greater) Spell Focus [necromancy] could be a decent investment, but its a big cost with no benefit on your other spells.

[Red Fel]

Shame you're going with Cleric on this one. If you're flexible on that point, a Lord of the Uttercold Necromancer (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3574.0) build is a great option. Using the Lord of the Uttercold feat with arcane casting, you can turn any spell with an energy descriptor into a [Cold] spell, and then turn any [Cold] spell into an Uttercold spell, dealing both Cold and Negative Energy damage. This turns you into a highly effective necromancer. Even better, there are plenty of feats and tricks to upgrade a [Cold] spell's DC, and since your [Cold] spells also deal Negative Energy, that means you get a boost to Negative Energy DCs. There's some great Cold + Undead synergy, both in terms of flavor and in terms of mechanics. You can also take Tomb-Tainted Soul or Necropolitan and benefit from your own power, obviously.

You won't be the highest tier, and you won't be a dedicated healer (although I loathe the idea of dedicated healers, wands are a thing), but you will be respectably powerful.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For this type of character, I would get the Slime and Cold domains, with the spontaneous domain casting ACF in PH2 for one of those, and take Domain Spontaneity in CD for the other one (optional).

For debuffing saves, the Shaken condition is quite good. Check out the Fear Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809) for tons of tips on fear effects. Maybe adapt Paladin of Tyranny (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny) to work like Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin), three levels of that and opponents take a -2 to their saves, and it only costs you one level of spellcasting. The Unseelie Fey template (+0 LA) in Dragon Compendium with the winter aspect imposes a penalty to adjacent opponents' saves equal to your Cha bonus.

[Grooke]

If you want to go Necropolitan arcane caster, you can throw in some Tainted Scholar for insane DCs.

[sjeshin]

Shame you're going with Cleric on this one. If you're flexible on that point, a Lord of the Uttercold Necromancer (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3574.0) build is a great option. Using the Lord of the Uttercold feat with arcane casting, you can turn any spell with an energy descriptor into a [Cold] spell, and then turn any [Cold] spell into an Uttercold spell, dealing both Cold and Negative Energy damage. This turns you into a highly effective necromancer. Even better, there are plenty of feats and tricks to upgrade a [Cold] spell's DC, and since your [Cold] spells also deal Negative Energy, that means you get a boost to Negative Energy DCs. There's some great Cold + Undead synergy, both in terms of flavor and in terms of mechanics. You can also take Tomb-Tainted Soul or Necropolitan and benefit from your own power, obviously.

You won't be the highest tier, and you won't be a dedicated healer (although I loathe the idea of dedicated healers, wands are a thing), but you will be respectably powerful.

I have two reasons for choosing cleric. One, is I get divine metamagic, which allows me to use my most potent necromancy spells at range. This includes necrotic cyst. The second is access to the spell close wounds, that oh crap button for my group rogue / ranger that takes too many hits at once or gets unlucky. Is there a way for uttercold necromancer to get the good necromancy spells at range? I can't look up the class at the moment.

[Grooke]

Tainted Scholar/Sorcerer can add Metamagic by taking CON damage instead of adjusting the slot. You need to have a CON score though, so you can't be undead (and therefore have to manage taint).

Also, I saw that while Tainted Scholar requires Arcane spells, Tainted Sorcerer doesn't, so you could enter as a Cleric.

[sjeshin]

Tainted Scholar/Sorcerer can add Metamagic by taking CON damage instead of adjusting the slot. You need to have a CON score though, so you can't be undead (and therefore have to manage taint).

Also, I saw that while Tainted Scholar requires Arcane spells, Tainted Sorcerer doesn't, so you could enter as a Cleric.

I'll look at it when I get a chance and see if it will fit then. Thanks.

[Red Fel]

I have two reasons for choosing cleric. One, is I get divine metamagic, which allows me to use my most potent necromancy spells at range. This includes necrotic cyst. The second is access to the spell close wounds, that oh crap button for my group rogue / ranger that takes too many hits at once or gets unlucky. Is there a way for uttercold necromancer to get the good necromancy spells at range? I can't look up the class at the moment.

"Uttercold Necromancer" isn't actually a class. It's a build concept; a combination of an arcane caster (Wizard, Sorcerer, or Dread Necromancer) with the feat Lord of the Uttercold, plus others. Arcane casting means you can make full use of metamagic, as opposed to having to use DMM, which you have to take for each metamagic feat you use. Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror), although a Tier 3 caster with an overly specialized spell list, may be quite useful in such a build. You gain various undead abilities, boosts to your created undead, and a special touch attack feature (which can be delivered at range with the Spectral Hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spectralHand.htm) spell). It's a Cha-based spontaneous caster (a la Sorcerer) with Cleric-style Rebuke Undead, and the ability to add your choice of Cleric or Wizard spells of the Necromancy school once every four levels.

As an aside, if you mean casting touch spells at range, Reach Spell metamagic is a thing, as is a Metamagic Rod of Reach Spell (which is generally a better option than the feat), and the Spectral Hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spectralHand.htm) spell.

[Grooke]

Arcane casting means you can make full use of metamagic, as opposed to having to use DMM

I'd like to what it is exactly that prevents divine casters from using non-Divine metamagic (or makes them less good at it).

[Red Fel]

I'd like to what it is exactly that prevents divine casters from using non-Divine metamagic (or makes them less good at it).

Guh. Brain-fart there, thanks. Divine casters don't have to use DMM. I'm just so used to DMM being the go-to on divine casters (particularly with DMM Persist buffing) that I forgot they can go about it the usual way.

[sjeshin]

"Uttercold Necromancer" isn't actually a class. It's a build concept; a combination of an arcane caster (Wizard, Sorcerer, or Dread Necromancer) with the feat Lord of the Uttercold, plus others. Arcane casting means you can make full use of metamagic, as opposed to having to use DMM, which you have to take for each metamagic feat you use. Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror), although a Tier 3 caster with an overly specialized spell list, may be quite useful in such a build. You gain various undead abilities, boosts to your created undead, and a special touch attack feature (which can be delivered at range with the Spectral Hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spectralHand.htm) spell). It's a Cha-based spontaneous caster (a la Sorcerer) with Cleric-style Rebuke Undead, and the ability to add your choice of Cleric or Wizard spells of the Necromancy school once every four levels.

As an aside, if you mean casting touch spells at range, Reach Spell metamagic is a thing, as is a Metamagic Rod of Reach Spell (which is generally a better option than the feat), and the Spectral Hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spectralHand.htm) spell.

I see the others caught my first question. The issue I have with the metamagic rod is cost. I don't know what it is off the top of my head but I bet it is over my starting gold for a level 7 character. Also, a standard action in combat to then be able to do touch spells sounds aweful. I think dread necromancer could be a good choice, but their spell list is so limited. I don't think they even get the big ones I was planning on using. I'll investigate this more though. Mostly i'm looking for niche spells, feats, and items that will follow the theme, not an overhaul or major class change.

[sjeshin]

Shame you're going with Cleric on this one. If you're flexible on that point, a Lord of the Uttercold Necromancer (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3574.0) build is a great option. Using the Lord of the Uttercold feat with arcane casting, you can turn any spell with an energy descriptor into a [Cold] spell, and then turn any [Cold] spell into an Uttercold spell, dealing both Cold and Negative Energy damage. This turns you into a highly effective necromancer. Even better, there are plenty of feats and tricks to upgrade a [Cold] spell's DC, and since your [Cold] spells also deal Negative Energy, that means you get a boost to Negative Energy DCs. There's some great Cold + Undead synergy, both in terms of flavor and in terms of mechanics. You can also take Tomb-Tainted Soul or Necropolitan and benefit from your own power, obviously.

You won't be the highest tier, and you won't be a dedicated healer (although I loathe the idea of dedicated healers, wands are a thing), but you will be respectably powerful.

If I were to use the lord of the uttercold feat, what ups the DC of cold spells?

[Grooke]

The link you cited contains a bunch of options

[sjeshin]

The link you cited contains a bunch of options

Ah. Can't look at it till I get home. Thanks.

[Red Fel]

I see the others caught my first question. The issue I have with the metamagic rod is cost.

As a rule, feats are a more valuable commodity than money. The cost may be high, but if you're not using Reach Spell more than three times a day, the rod frees you up to use your feats elsewhere.


I think dread necromancer could be a good choice, but their spell list is so limited. I don't think they even get the big ones I was planning on using. I'll investigate this more though. Mostly i'm looking for niche spells, feats, and items that will follow the theme, not an overhaul or major class change.

If your goal is necromancy, Dread Necromancer fits the niche. If your goal is "whatever spells I want," Wizard or Sorcerer do it for you. But at that point, you're not "niche" anymore.


If I were to use the lord of the uttercold feat, what ups the DC of cold spells?

Pretty much any metamagic feat from Frostburn, including: Cold Focus: +1 to save DCs versus all spells you cast with the [Cold] descriptor. Thanks to Energy Substitution (which is a prereq of Lord of the Uttercold), all of your spells with a descriptor will have the [Cold] descriptor. Greater Cold Focus: +1 to save DCs, stacks with Cold Focus. Snowcasting: Use a handful of snow to add the [Cold] descriptor, or increase the DC of a [Cold] spell by +1. Frozen Magic: Increases the CL of your [Cold] spells by +1 while in cold areas. (Hint: If you cast cold spells, you can make the weather colder.) Storm Magic: Increases your CL by +1 during storms. Hey, you never know.
You'll also want Piercing Cold, which lets your [Cold] spells deal damage to creatures that are resistant or immune, and Energy Admixture, which allows you to double your damage - which means doubling your Negative Energy damage as well, since that's half of your spell's overall damage.

[sjeshin]

As a rule, feats are a more valuable commodity than money. The cost may be high, but if you're not using Reach Spell more than three times a day, the rod frees you up to use your feats elsewhere.



If your goal is necromancy, Dread Necromancer fits the niche. If your goal is "whatever spells I want," Wizard or Sorcerer do it for you. But at that point, you're not "niche" anymore.



Pretty much any metamagic feat from Frostburn, including: Cold Focus: +1 to save DCs versus all spells you cast with the [Cold] descriptor. Thanks to Energy Substitution (which is a prereq of Lord of the Uttercold), all of your spells with a descriptor will have the [Cold] descriptor. Greater Cold Focus: +1 to save DCs, stacks with Cold Focus. Snowcasting: Use a handful of snow to add the [Cold] descriptor, or increase the DC of a [Cold] spell by +1. Frozen Magic: Increases the CL of your [Cold] spells by +1 while in cold areas. (Hint: If you cast cold spells, you can make the weather colder.) Storm Magic: Increases your CL by +1 during storms. Hey, you never know.
You'll also want Piercing Cold, which lets your [Cold] spells deal damage to creatures that are resistant or immune, and Energy Admixture, which allows you to double your damage - which means doubling your Negative Energy damage as well, since that's half of your spell's overall damage.


I like a lot of the ideas that have come up, especially the snowcasting plus cold feats, but again I want to do cleric for several good reasons. If I prepare close wounds, it can be life or death especially for the rogue. I can't draw and fire off an immediate action spell from a wand when it's needed. Overall the cleric has better spell selections for debuffing while sticking to the necromancy school with the right domains chosen, and divine metamagic for multiple ranged touch attacks. What I'm looking for is that item or 1 more feat to give my spells that extra evil flavor. I know what I want, I just feel like I'm missing a small part of it. I won't be doing much minion mancy till dooms day either. (When we go for the big take over. By then the whole town / nearly that should have cysts.)

[GilesTheCleric]

I like a lot of the ideas that have come up, especially the snowcasting plus cold feats, but again I want to do cleric for several good reasons. If I prepare close wounds, it can be life or death especially for the rogue. I can't draw and fire off an immediate action spell from a wand when it's needed. Overall the cleric has better spell selections for debuffing while sticking to the necromancy school with the right domains chosen, and divine metamagic for multiple ranged touch attacks. What I'm looking for is that item or 1 more feat to give my spells that extra evil flavor. I know what I want, I just feel like I'm missing a small part of it. I won't be doing much minion mancy till dooms day either. (When we go for the big take over. By then the whole town / nearly that should have cysts.)

Check out Taint Spell from Drag303 69. It's probably already part of the Uttercold Build linked above, but you can grab it on your cleric for the evil feel. Aligned Spellcaster ACF (Drag357 88) puts the [evil] descriptor on your spells, too. Umbral Spell (DotU 52) puts [darkness] on all of them, and as everyone knows, evil = darkness.

If you want to get around the two feats for reach spell, you can drop a casting level on Hierophant (DMG) for the same ability. I think some other arcane PrCs (Archmage?) give the same ability, but I don't know much about arcane casting classes.

Edit: Forgot I had an entire folder for necromancy stuff. Also look at: Corrupt Spell (CoR 17), Debilitating Spell (HoH 120), Eldritch Corruption (HoH 120), Enervate Spell (LM 26), Fell Animate (LM 26), Fell Energy Spell (DC 98), Mastery of the Dead (PGtE 125), Profane Lifeleech (LM 26), Violate Spell (BoVD 50), and Malign Spell Focus (BoVD 49).