how much are spell levels worth?

[SangoProduction]

There's a Ring of Sorcery, from the Spells and Magic book, which gives 4 spell levels worth of spells per day for 15,000 (so, can cast 4 1st level spells, 2 2nd level spells etc). I'm a bit...skeptical about the worth of this, but it's higher level items give 8 and 12 spell levels for 30,000 and 45k gp respectively. Those, I am quite convinced is well worth their cost (and ring slot), especially compared to pearls of power, which I thought were damned good (though restricted to prepared casters, and can only allow you to recast what you cast before), because you could just buy an infinite amount of them.
EDIT: Clarification for the ring: Spontaneous casters can use the spell levels as they please whenever they need them. Prepared casters, however, must use the spell levels while preparing their spells (pre-assigning them). Non casters get spell slots, but can't cast. Sucks to be them, eh?

Would I be correct in this assessment? Perhaps the real question is how much is the ring slot worth in this instance...

And, in the same book, there's a class that allows you to give up 3 hp permanently for 1 spell per day of any spell level you know (well, actually it doesn't specify that you have to know it, but let's be reasonable). Is this trade off worth it? At higher level spells, it almost definitely is, but what's the minimum for it to be worth while? 3rd? 4th?
EDIT: Yes, it's 3 hp off the maximum. As in you can't heal past (previous maximum - (3*spell slots you gain with this) ).

Oh, and one more question. Is dealing HP damage to your self equal to (5 * spell level), after you've already expended all your spell slots (for that spell level) a decent trade off? What if it was 3 or 2 times the spell level? Yes, just damage, not maximum.

[sideswipe]

i cant imagine it being a first party book.

[SangoProduction]

probably not, it's just a book.

[JeenLeen]

To clarify:
For the ring, this lets even non-spellcasters cast? And is it any spells of 4th level or lower, arcane or divine (though I'd assume the general 'cannot use Paladin level 4 if it's a level 6 cleric spell' general deal.)

For the class feature (trade HP for spell), you say permanently per day. Does that mean that, at the end of the day, your total HP goes back up?
EDIT: upon re-reading, I took a different meaning. Do you mean you choose to lower your perm HP by 3 and then you gain an extra spell slot? If yes, it is your choice which spell level?

Answer:
About ring: that sounds really underpriced if anyone can use it. If it's just casters, and thus just spells you know, then maybe a bit underpriced; I would say have it around a level 4 pearl of power. It's more versatile than the pearl, but it requires a valuable slot. I'd value it above a ring of invisibility, which is my usual "really want this" ring.

For the class feature: if you get back the total HP at the end of day, very powerful. A good caster doesn't usually have to worry about getting hit, and even then losing a few HP to get some extra spells per day, especially of high spell level, is very powerful. If it's truly perm HP lost... then still powerful, but I at least would never use it until I'm probably at the end of the game or *really* want something to work right.
EDIT: if my interpretation in the 'EDIT' above is right, this seems rather powerful and worthwhile to get a few extra high-level spells. Dropping 15 HP to get 5 extra level 7-9 spell slots sounds well worth it. Heck; this makes generally trash feats that boost HP really valuable for a build like this.

Note: I haven't played D&D in a while, so my concept of proper wealth might be off.

[Surpriser]

The cost of that ring should increase quadratically instead of linearly. There is a big difference between buying one ring with 8 levels and two rings with 4 levels each (and you can simply swap them out after you have used them).

Clarification on how these spell levels can be used would be nice. I assume that only casters can use this and only for spell levels they are capable of casting anyway and for spells they know. Anything else would be pretty broken. But what about prepared casters? Do they need to prepare these additional slots or can they be used sponaneously?

JeenLeen's suggestion to price them as Pearls of Power of the appropriate level seems reasonable to me too.


The mentioned class feature by itself seems to be a really good trade even for lower spell levels. I would start to consider it starting at spell level 2 (if you use the slot to cast False Life, you come out ahead). The higher both your HD (and Con) and the spell level you can choose, the better the deal. I would not recommend it below level 5 or so, where 3 hp can mean a lot.

As another approach: Toughness returns those 3 hp while Extra Slot allows an additional slot of up to one level below your maximum level. So the question turns into a question of the relative values of these feats. Considering the low value of Toughness, the deal is a lot better than even.

Of course, a lot also depends on the other features of the class in question. It might be better to simply take a different class with better features.

[SangoProduction]

Edited the OP for clarification. I was not clear enough. And I agree with the assessment that the ring should scale exponentially, not linearly, as it becomes really good, and flexible at higher levels.
hmm...2nd level spell slots are worth 3 hit points? hmm. Well, I guess a few of them are, later on.

[Flickerdart]

Edited the OP for clarification. I was not clear enough. And I agree with the assessment that the ring should scale exponentially, not linearly, as it becomes really good, and flexible at higher levels.
hmm...2nd level spell slots are worth 3 hit points? hmm. Well, I guess a few of them are, later on.
Even a single 2nd level spell slot vastly exceeds the marginal advantages of 3 hit points.

[SangoProduction]

Even a single 2nd level spell slot vastly exceeds the marginal advantages of 3 hit points.

Yeah, I suppose you're right, what with how much there is in the 2nd level spells.

Oh, and one more question. Is dealing HP damage to your self equal to (5 * spell level), after you've already expended all your spell slots (for that spell level) a decent trade off? What if it was 3 or 2 times the spell level?

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, I suppose you're right, what with how much there is in the 2nd level spells.

Oh, and one more question. Is dealing HP damage to your self equal to (5 * spell level), after you've already expended all your spell slots (for that spell level) a decent trade off? What if it was 3 or 2 times the spell level?
5*spell level is nothing. Consider: a wand of Lesser Vigor gives you 11 hit points. With your scheme, you could convert 4 charges from the wand (worth 60gp) into a 9th level spell.

[SangoProduction]

5*spell level is nothing. Consider: a wand of Lesser Vigor gives you 11 hit points. With your scheme, you could convert 4 charges from the wand (worth 60gp) into a 9th level spell.

But, in exchange, you're giving 44 turns + 4 standard actions to heal all of that at Fast Healing 1. (I only have mass lesser vigor as a reference. Google hates lesser vigor I guess.) I think that quite makes up for such healing, as you'd never be able to heal more than you'd be spending within a combat. For more compact healing (though still at low level), would be cure light wounds at 2-9 (5.5 average), taking 8 standard actions (turns) to heal that and 120 gp. By the time you heal it, you'd have missed all the combat. The gold cost is very, very, very worth while, but the time cost... (especially in a culture where even spending an action to counter spell or heal is considered an utter waste)

But I think, oddly enough, you average a greater heal than your cost to heal using cure light wounds and this blood casting, even more so when you go up higher caster level.

Out of combat however, if you can expect more than one encounter per session, and there's plenty of time between them, and there's no out of combat healing automatically granted, then I could see where such time concerns would be less noticeable (because the time frame is in terms of minutes or hours out of combat, as opposed to rounds).

But, essentially, this cost isn't completely inhibitory, and is worthwhile, even before reductions, especially with healing spells. I will probably house rule that you can't use blood casting on a healing spell (on yourself, or anyone else with blood casting).

[Flickerdart]

But, in exchange, you're giving 44 turns + 4 standard actions to heal all of that at Fast Healing 1. (I only have mass lesser vigor as a reference. Google hates lesser vigor I guess.) I think that quite makes up for such healing, as you'd never be able to heal more than you'd be spending within a combat. For more compact healing (though still at low level), would be cure light wounds at 2-9 (5.5 average), taking 8 standard actions (turns) to heal that and 120 gp. By the time you heal it, you'd have missed all the combat. The gold cost is very, very, very worth while, but the time cost... (especially in a culture where even spending an action to counter spell or heal is considered an utter waste)
Utterly irrelevant. Being able to cast 288 9th level spells a day (on top of your normal allotment) for 60gp a pop gives you such a powerful strategic advantage that you will never need to cast anything during combat.

If you're only using tactical-scope spells though, you're still not using this during combat, but between combats. Using the CLW wands will recover 5 ninth-level spells in 4 minutes. Are all your encounters closer together than 4 minutes?

[EugeneVoid]

Being able to cast 288 9th level spells a day

Just came here to quote this.