OOTS #439 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up. Sorry it's a little late, there were a lot of hobgoblins to add.

[Pokemaster]

:eek:

That is all.

[EndgamerAzari]

Ah, the horror of realizing that all those guys you just killed were too low of a CR....

[Guildorn Tanaleth]

Ouch. That has got to hurt. Both the arrow & lack of XP, that is. The arrow that Belkar will undoubtedly jab through whoever tells him about the XP, to be precise.

[MReav]

Poor Belkar.

At least he probably getting Roleplay XP.

Hey Giant... mind telling us just how many Hobs are in the pile? You know, for the guys keeping track?

[Peptuck]

All this comic needed was a 300 reference to be the most epic OOTS ever.

[Fawkes]

Priceless. I need to start playing D&D again and make a Halfling barbarian just so I can say that line. Brilliant.

[foxtrothacker]

OMG! This totally affirms my love of Belkar!

I love him so much, even if he would pwn me at any given opportunity.

[Imrahil]

Never has so much been said in so few words.

[Fascisticide]

Who said anything about friday cliffhangers?

[Tach13]

But hey, he got to kill multiple beings for the first time in a long time. Not much of a consolation, but it's something.

[EntilZha]

Man, Belkar's gonna be hissed off when he realizes he's not getting any XP for all that. :smallbiggrin:

[Legendary]

Poor Belkar, all those bodies and NO XP.

Well, there's still the Death Knight/Huecuva/whatever one it is that was w/ Redcloak and CitD.

[katzklaw]

dude. Belkar totally kicked some hobgoblin arse! awsome combat strip!

[Dabble]

Good to see that Belkar is keeping busy in all of his glory against the hobgoblin hordes.... that he won't get any XP for.

[Dhavaer]

Awesome. That is all.

[ref]

Serves him well, that Belkar.:smallamused: :smallsigh:

[brazilian]

Wow a lot of hobglobins for certain...

And poor Belkar no XP, no treasure and lots of cuts

[Nupo]

Go Belkar!!! The guy that is keeping a running total of losses will be up all knght counting all those hobgoblin losses.

[Professor Tanhauser]

New comic is up. Sorry it's a little late, there were a lot of hobgoblins to add.

Try making a stamp. :smallbiggrin:

[Black Mage]

Bloody brilliant!

[asqwasqw]

I love him crowing triumphantly on top of all those bodies. I got dizzy after awhile. Did anyone see him take down the archers?

[Alysar]

All this comic needed was a 300 reference to be the most epic OOTS ever.


This Is Azuuuure!

city

[Destro_Yersul]

That. Is. Awesome. Belkar is the greatest halfling ever.

[Legendary]

Actually, that's a HUGE number of Hobbos. He did an AWESOME job all things considered. That+V's extermination of hobbos on hir front, the two of them might just turn the tide of battle.

[Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins]

Excellent. (http://cache.kotaku.com/images/2006/05/godofwar2.jpg) (C'mon. You know you saw that, watching Belkar tear through hordes of hobgoblins.)
Or, if I were to quote one of my more favored villains, 'yesssss.....'

I like this comic, if only for the sheer Belkarian carnage.

Heh. "Sexy shoeless god of war", indeed.

[The Giant]

Whoops, the speech for in the last panel was too small before...fixed now.

[mirrorshades]

Okay... somebody want to explain to us non-D&D types why he won't get any XP for the kills??

[Wonton]

Whoa...
That's pretty awesome.

Oh and, I believe (don't quote me on this, though) that once your Challenge Rating is significantly higher than your opponents, they don't yield XP.

To prevent level 20s levelling by exterminating all the rats in the world, I guess. :smallamused:

Belkar is somewhere in the 12-15 CR range. Hobgoblins are what, 1/2?

Oh, and, by the way... I definitely think the last couple of panels are Belkar's Barbarian level being used to great effect. If that's not rage, I don't know what is.

Well, Thog's rage was more powerful, but he's got what, 14 Barb levels? Belkar's only got one.

[Shott]

Lol, nice. I don't think he'd be too upset over the xp loss though. He hasn't been able to actually kill anything in so long the euphoria of battle is probably enough.

[Professor Tanhauser]

No XP? Bull$%!#!!!

He was terribly outnumbered, and injured several times, He was hit by archers which were a definite menace to a guy equipped with daggers and still won.

Plus he has to get some XP for the last panel, just for good roleplaying and playing in character.

Don't make me start a "Belkar deserves XP!" thread, Rich.

[2.5 cats]

He whacked a lot of hobgoblins, but Belkar is totally banged/scratched up about now. If something tough, such as one of those big undead, shows up he's in deep doodoo.

[Bakta]

I don't even think he'll mind getting no xp at all, this was Belkster's aerobic time.

Jane Fonda , eat your heart out... with sauge

[Kyace]

Now he can build that fort he always wanted. Out of the slain bodies of his foes people who just happened to be outside of city limits.

[MReav]

This Is Azuuuure!

city


300 reference...
Shortened


THIS IS BELKARTAAAAAAAAAAA!

[Yogi]

Okay... somebody want to explain to us non-D&D types why he won't get any XP for the kills??I think he should. Technically, enough low CR creatures can get together into one high CR encounter. I'm pretty sure that many hobgoblins qualifies, plus the ones who were firing on him.

[S.ilver]

All I've got to say is that is pure Belkar in top form :smallcool:

[Big_Robot]

Nice one! Definitely need a wallpaper conversion...

[Professor Tanhauser]

He whacked a lot of hobgoblins, but Belkar is totally banged/scratched up about now. If something tough, such as one of those big undead, shows up he's in deep doodoo.

Belkar usually carries some healing potions on his person, unless haley swiped them again.

[Bronzeevil]

Doesn't CR increase by 2 with each doubling of the number of enemies? I counted 64 corpses, and if we assumer that's half the pile, then that 128 (or, 2^7), which would increase the CR by 14. He's not higher than level 21, so if I have the right formula, he gets XP for that...

[NecroPaladin]

Belkar had better get XP for that. Not the fighting part; I mean the being sexy part.

[Spiky]

Durkon lives!!!

[Professor Tanhauser]

I think he should. Technically, enough low CR creatures can get together into one high CR encounter. I'm pretty sure that many hobgoblins qualifies, plus the ones who were firing on him.

Hell, and DM worth his dice would give him Xp just for playing in character and good roleplaying at the last panel.

[Ailurus]

Wow. That's a lot of hobgoblins.

Even if it doesn't get him XP, I think that he's guaranteed to get the MoJ removed if Hinjo survives. If that's not acquitting yourself well in a battle, I don't know what is.

[Grasilich]

Man, Hobgoblins suck.

[brazilian]

Doesn't CR increase by 2 with each doubling of the number of enemies? I counted 64 corpses, and if we assumer that's half the pile, then that 128 (or, 2^7), which would increase the CR by 14. He's not higher than level 21, so if I have the right formula, he gets XP for that...

I don't think it works like that, after all you don't see adventurers running after hundreds of rats =)

[IncredibleMel]

Can I point something out?
XP or no, Belkar just engaged in probably the biggest whole sale slauhter of his entire life. I'm sure that the only way he'd be happier at that very moment would be if his euporia exploded in a fountain of firey death to consume EVEN more hobgoblins, Miko's horse, or V.

[Pokemaster]

Well, I count about 60 hobgoblins in there, so at 1/2 CR each, that's actually a level 30 encounter.

Damn's pretty damn sex. And shoeless.

[archon_huskie]

Go Belkar!!! The guy that is keeping a running total of losses will be up all knght counting all those hobgoblin losses.
I was ready to quit when I saw the comic. But then I read this reply and a sense of duty called me to action!

I counted 63!

If they were outnumbered 3 to 1 then . . .

Good Guys ARE WINNING!

[kreszantas]

Durkon lives!!!

View back one to #438 you can see Durkon near Haley so it does fit well together.

[Arachnophile]

I love how the close up effect gives the feel of Belkar's field of vision narrowing as the pressure of fighting lots of hobgoblins builds. :D Great job!

[Dalenthas]

I'm more impressed that in the time it took me to read the comic this thread already had two pages of posts. And the comic only has 3 lines of dialog!

Now its Durkon's time to shine! (crosses fingers)

[SETI_fan]

Okay, you know that line's going in a bunch of signatures now. :smallsmile:

Man, that was almost hard to take in for a while! Kudos to you, Giant, for being able to convey the intense chaos of a wicked hand-to-hand battle with stick figures!

Seti

[Bronzeevil]

I don't think it works like that, after all you don't see adventurers running after hundreds of rats =)Well, my DM friend (who has practically memorized the core books) says that's the formula. So if that's it, then huge army battle suck, because the CR would only be 79 for 1099511627776 hobgoblins :P
Heh. "Only."

[Catch]

Shoeless? Certainly.

God of War? Well, he's no Kratos...

Sexy? Ugh....

[Douglas]

The no XP thing is because XP for defeating enemies is based on the Challenge Rating of the enemy and your level. Multiple enemies increase the Encounter Level, but XP gain is still calculated individually for each enemy based on that enemy's individual CR. Enemies with a CR 8 or more below your level do not give any XP at all. A typical hobgoblin is CR 1/2. Belkar is (we're pretty sure) level 13.

The EL of a group goes up by 2 for each doubling of the group's members, but no individual monster's CR changes and XP gain is based on CR. EL is used ONLY to estimate how hard the fight will be, not for calculating XP.

[Izzo]

Let's go through the entire sequence of events.

He stopped an assassination attempt by jumping on the would-be assassin and knocking him off the wall of the city. On the way down, he decapitated him. After landing (which he no doubt took some damage from) he went on a killing spree and defeated over 60 hobgoblins by himself.

Elan should be taking notes. :D

[I_Got_This_Name]

He's not getting EXP because if you defeat a challenge (in most cases, kill an enemy) with a challenge rating more than eight different from your level, you get no EXP (if it's too high, there are obviously some weird circumstances; if it's too low, then you've got this case). Hobgoblins have a CR of 1/2; Belkar is at least level 9, so he's not getting any EXP for killing them.

However, there can also be special awards for achieving goals and the like; defeating something with a CR more than eight higher almost certainly qualifies for one, and fighting the Hobgoblin army doesn't.

There is some confusion about the EXP value of armies due to the idea of Encounter Level (for a single monster, EL = CR; for two monsters whose CRs are within 1 of eachother, EL = greater CR +2 for all CRs greater than 2; EL scales from there, so four monsters of CR x are EL x+4, as is a monster of CR x+2 and two of CR x. CRs less than two add linearly to form EL; two at CR 1/2 are EL 1). However, EL is only useful when evaluating whether or not to place a fight; EXP comes from CR. Additionally, when you get past 16 (IIRC), EL starts to break down (but EXP tends to stop there), since you will often end up in situations where the PCs' defenses far outstrip the monsters' attacks, such as in this situation.

(Edit: Simued)

[Yogi]

The scene reminds me of Jackie Chan's man vs. Army fight in The Myth. This is the greatest slaughter outside of a Dynasty Warriors game.

[Professor Tanhauser]

Shoeless? Certainly.

God of War? Well, he's no Kratos...

Sexy? Ugh....

Hey, confidence is sexy, and belkar has a lot of confidence....

[Bronzeevil]

The no XP thing is because XP for defeating enemies is based on the Challenge Rating of the enemy and your level. Multiple enemies increase the Encounter Level, but XP gain is still calculated individually for each enemy based on that enemy's individual CR. Enemies with a CR 8 or more below your level do not give any XP at all. A typical hobgoblin is CR 1/2. Belkar is (we're pretty sure) level 13.So how many great wyrm prismatic dragons do you have to kill with your CR74 character to gain a relatively respectable amount of XP?

[silvadel]

I dunno I mean look at it this way:

For an encounter to be meaningful and provide exp there needs to be some genuine danger to the character in question.

Was there genuine danger here?

Yes -- certainly -- he managed to defeat that legion of hobgoblins just barely based on how beat up he is -- it wasnt even a guaranteed win result.

Whatever the basic rules of 3.5 say he would get exp in any campaign I ran (I tend to look more towards the original AD&D rules for guidance anyway when I need said).

[SPoD]

Well, I count about 60 hobgoblins in there, so at 1/2 CR each, that's actually a level 30 encounter.

It absolutely does not work that way.

Encounter Level increases by 2 every time the number of foes doubles. So, if they are CR 1/2 each, we would have:

2 hobgoblins = EL 1
4 hobgoblins = EL 3
8 hobgoblins = EL 5
16 hobgoblins = EL 7
32 hobgoblins = EL 9
64 hobgoblins = EL 11
128 hobgoblins = EL 13 = Belkar's probably level

However, the DMG advises that if you need more than 12 creatures to make the proper CR, than each individual creature is no threat at all and shouldn't be used in an encounter. (DMG pg. 49)

Further, XP is NOT based on the EL, but on the CR of each creature individually. Since a hobgoblin is more than 8 levels below Belkar, each hobgoblin is worth nothing, no matter how many of them attack Belkar. Yes, this makes no sense, but it's meant to keep adventurers from kill 10,000 rats and leveling up.

EDIT: Got my facts wrong, fixed now.

[valis]

I dont' understand why isn't belkar getting any XP?

[Krade]

All this comic needed was a 300 reference to be the most epic OOTS ever.
Let me draw your attention to this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0425.html) strip. Rich already did a 300 reference. To reference it again (and so soon after the first) would be considered bad form by many, including me, and, in all likelyhood, Rich as well.

300 references are fun, but you can't spout one out every few strips or else the strip would end up getting ridiculed for not coming up with original punchlines and the like. Now, it may have been a God of War reference, but the "sexy shoeless" part keeps me from thinking that too much.

[Professor Tanhauser]

The only way to improve this one would have been to have belkar yank out the arrows he'd been shot with and stab a couple hobs with them....

[leakingpen]

I dunno. i would think that a grouping of enemies would have a cr increase. wouldnt be good xp, but i wouldnt give NOTHING.

[Erathia]

I don't think it works like that, after all you don't see adventurers running after hundreds of rats =)
Okay, worked it out. Let's use MATH!

Assume 128 Level 1 Hobgoblin Warriors are being faced. Allow for Belkar to only deal lethal blows, because there's been no evidence he hasn't so far, and that he always deals a lethal blow. However, I'm going to say that they need to roll a 19 or Natural 20 to hit him because those two arrows hitting him bug me. I know they probably came from different sources, but what're you going to do.

Anyways, 128 Hobgoblins constant attacking means he's surrounded the entirety of the fight. Given that he makes 6 attacks per round, that means you need 6 new hobgoblins each round, so it should last for 22 rounds, though the last round will be at only 2 Hobgoblins. Given that there are two die-rolls for him to be hit at, any one attack should hit him 10% of the time, and deal double damage .5% of the time. Allowing for him to win iniative, he faces 7 attacks each round, meaning he'll face a total of 155 attacks (154 from being surrounded and then 1 from the last Hobgoblin). That means he'll be hit normally 15.5 times, and critically hit .78 times, so let's say 15 and 1 respectively.

The average Hobgoblin warrior deals 1d8+1 damage, which rounds to 5.5, and the critical would be 2d8+1, or around 9 damage. So he should face 91 damage from this fight.

As a Ranger 12/Barbarian 1 means Belkar gets the automatic 8HP from first level, then an average of 4 for 11 levels and 6 from the Barbarian levels, meaning without Constitution Modifiers he has around 58 HP. This should be fun for Class and Level Geekery, because this puts his CON Modifier at at least 14 (not unreasonable for a Warrior) in order to be able to survive. This gives him another +26 HP, placing him at 84HP.

I'd say he's in serious danger of dying, and deserves XP for this fight

[mirrorshades]

Thanks to all for the quick and thorough explanation of CR and no XP. :)

[Professor Tanhauser]

It absolutely does not work that way.

Challenge Rating increases by 2 every time the number of foes doubles. So, if they are CR 1/2 each, we would have:

2 hobgoblins = CR 1
4 hobgoblins = CR 3
8 hobgoblins = CR 5
16 hobgoblins = CR 7
32 hobgoblins = CR 9
64 hobgoblins = CR 11
128 hobgoblins = CR 13 = Belkar's probably level

However, the DMG advises that if you need more than 12 creatures to make the proper CR, than each individual creature is no threat at all and shouldn't be used in an encounter. (DMG pg. 49) One could extrapolate from that that if they shouldn't be used encounter, then there's no XP, though it's not stated. I would probably give him XP, but not enough for a CR 13 encounter.


Remember that belkar is a melee fighter and that he was hit by arrows.

Archers are a HUGE threat to a melee fighter, so their CR has to be raised when dealing with belkar to reflect that.

So i'd think belkar would get xp for surviving the battle given the danger he faced from the archers.

[Pokemaster]

It absolutely does not work that way.

Challenge Rating increases by 2 every time the number of foes doubles. So, if they are CR 1/2 each, we would have:

2 hobgoblins = CR 1
4 hobgoblins = CR 3
8 hobgoblins = CR 5
16 hobgoblins = CR 7
32 hobgoblins = CR 9
64 hobgoblins = CR 11
128 hobgoblins = CR 13 = Belkar's probably level


This would be why I don't GM. :frown:

Also, it's late and such.

[Lloyd]

Lol, nice. I don't think he'd be too upset over the xp loss though. He hasn't been able to actually kill anything in so long the euphoria of battle is probably enough.

I concur. Just being able to slaughter all those hobgoblins will be enough to start with, I think. Plus, you never know, he might come across a few things of higher CRs later on.

Anyhow, GO :belkar:!!!!

[Bronzeevil]

It absolutely does not work that way.

Challenge Rating increases by 2 every time the number of foes doubles. So, if they are CR 1/2 each, we would have:

2 hobgoblins = CR 1
4 hobgoblins = CR 3
8 hobgoblins = CR 5
16 hobgoblins = CR 7
32 hobgoblins = CR 9
64 hobgoblins = CR 11
128 hobgoblins = CR 13 = Belkar's probably level

However, the DMG advises that if you need more than 12 creatures to make the proper CR, than each individual creature is no threat at all and shouldn't be used in an encounter. (DMG pg. 49) One could extrapolate from that that if they shouldn't be used encounter, then there's no XP, though it's not stated. I would probably give him XP, but not enough for a CR 13 encounter.
Ok, now I'm confused. Isn't CR 1/2 one level below 1, 1/4 being two slevels below?

[Douglas]

So how many great wyrm prismatic dragons do you have to kill with your CR74 character to gain a relatively respectable amount of XP?
Infinite. A great wyrm prismatic dragon is CR 66, 8 less than that character's level, so he gets no XP from them at all.

For those still asking why Belkar won't get any XP, I explained it in my post on page two. Keep in mind that CR and EL are NOT the same thing unless there is only one monster.

[Bilbo27]

Great battle by a small but gallant being

[Bronzeevil]

Infinite. A great wyrm prismatic dragon is CR 66, 8 less than that character's level, so he gets no XP from them at all.
Yeah, but I meant in one encounter, because this whole topic has degenerated into XP discussions. Plus, CR74 is insane. Just so you know.

[SPoD]

People, people, there are two separate conversations going on here. Wehter Belkar DESERVES XP is entirely separate from a joke making fun of the literal way the XP rules work.

Of course Belkar deserves XP in any reasonable well-DM'd game. But that's not the joke! The joke is that if you follow the exact rules in the DMG, Belkar gets 0 XP.

For all the degree to which people complain that Rich doesn't put satire of the D&D rules in anymore, they seem awful eager to try to criticize his skills as a DM when he does!


Ok, now I'm confused. Isn't CR 1/2 one level below 1, 1/4 being two slevels below?

There's a rule that below CR 1, you just add the fractions together and then work from there. So two CR 1/2 monsters = CR 1, but 4 CR 1/2 monsters = CR 3, because now you're above 1.

[silvadel]

What is funny is actually how I give exp in a game...

I figure out the exp rating for whatever dungeon etc the party is going through(or I keep a running total if they are out somewhere unplanned).

I make a notation for party, and one for each individual character.

As the game goes on I do a + (or even 2+) for major positive initiatives a . for minor positives a ~ for minor negatives and a - (or more) for major negatives. I do the same for the party.

At the end of the night I tally the +s and -s for the party and the characters and generally I give about the number I thought +5% per plus to the party as an average. I then figure out what each + is worth per player with a typical game being that the top player gets about a 20%-30% bonus(sometimes less sometimes more) over the average. (Depends on the game).

Works out better in my opinion than using CRs etc.

[CGM3]

Belkar usually carries some healing potions on his person, unless haley swiped them again.

There you go, judging Haley by her class again. She's a rogue, so she must have stolen Belkar's potions. Better bolt everything down when Haley's around, she's a ROGUE! :haley:

Shame on you. :smallannoyed:

(Ignore any potion bottle she may be holding.) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html) :smallwink:

[NeonRonin]

I think I just acquired another favorite catchphrase! Lovely work, Rich...

And I don't wanna be anywhere near Belkar when he learns the 'no XP' thing.

Hide, hide, hide, hide from the psycho raging halfling...

[Duffren]

Belkar is nearing the end of his leash!

That is an awesome amount of Hobbos, much kudos to him for that. But if Belkar doesnt watch himself...
The prophecy will be fulfilled!

[spectralphoenix]

Belkar can only be attacked by 8 hobgoblins per round. Each attack has a one-in-twenty chance of hitting, so he'll be getting hit twice every five rounds, for a total of around 7 times (give or take, depending on how lucky his opponents are.) He still misses on a natural one, but thats only five times out of 100, so he has to make 105 attacks to finish them all off. He takes around 38 points of damage in a pure melee.

Archery would actually hurt the hobgoblins, since Belkar has cover from their comrades. They're more likely to hit each other than the sexy shoeless god of war.

[Douglas]

Yeah, but I meant in one encounter, because this whole topic has degenerated into XP discussions. Plus, CR74 is insane. Just so you know.
Doesn't matter. XP gain is calculated for each individual foe and then added up. 1000000 great wyrm prismatic dragons would give him 1000000 * 0 = 0 XP, no matter whether he fought them all at once or one at a time.

And yes, that level is insane. He was made specifically to test the power of a supposedly CR 66 BBEG someone had come up with. That test is now defunct, I just haven't removed the link from my sig. The main thing I learned from it was that D&D really is indisputably broken at that level even without obvious cheese.

[Bronzeevil]

Doesn't matter. XP gain is calculated for each individual foe and then added up. 1000000 great wyrm prismatic dragons would give him 1000000 * 0 = 0 XP, no matter whether he fought he them all at once or one at a time.

And yes, that level is insane. He was made specifically to test the power of a supposedly CR 66 BBEG someone had come up with. That test is now defunct, I just haven't removed the link from my sig. The main thing I learned from it was that D&D really is indisputably broken at that level even without obvious cheese.That's... not what others are saying. Curse my not-having-books! Meh. D&D can be broken easily, that's why I like it.


There's a rule that below CR 1, you just add the fractions together and then work from there. So two CR 1/2 monsters = CR 1, but 4 CR 1/2 monsters = CR 3, because now you're above 1.
I see. Thanks for clearing that up.

[scwizard]

Why the hell would he care about XP now? He got to stab things!

[Hiruma]

Once you are in danger, you should get xp. DM's mantra, I believe.

[Douglas]

That's... not what others are saying. Curse my not-having-books! Meh. D&D can be broken easily, that's why I like it.
Others are confusing CR and EL or bringing up Ad Hoc awards. The process for determining XP awards for defeating enemies is given quite explicitly step by step on page 37 of the DMG, and taking multiple monsters into account is the very last step, adding up the already determined XP values, before going on to the next party member.

[rashambo]

This little unchecked moment of bloodthirsty carnage may just cost wee man his life, but what a way to go.

[Erathia]

Belkar can only be attacked by 8 hobgoblins per round. Each attack has a one-in-twenty chance of hitting, so he'll be getting hit twice every five rounds, for a total of around 6 or 7 times (give or take, depending on how lucky his opponents are.) He still misses on a natural one, but thats only five times out of 100, so he has to make 105 attacks to finish them all off. He takes around 35 points of damage in a pure melee.

Archery would actually hurt the hobgoblins, since Belkar has cover from their comrades. They're more likely to hit each other than the sexy shoeless god of war.

Blast, I didn't factor in his natural miss bonus. Still though, he's hit WAY more than 7 times just from looking at him at the end of the battle there.

[Krade]

Crap like that is why in the group I played in, we usually leveled up after each adventure and didn't usually bother with EXP. You cleared the dungeon/tower/cave/etc., you killed the bad guy, saved the damsel, and so on and so on. Level up. It keeps it more intersting at the higher levels where it takes longer to level up by EXP.

[Drekhan]

I'm more concerned with how Belkar is doing :-p

I wonder if we'll see his head starting to peek up over the top of the battlements as the pile of corpses he's created climbs ever higher.

I am a sexy shoeless god of semi-accurate predictions!
:-p

[Bronzeevil]

Others are confusing CR and EL or bringing up Ad Hoc awards. The process for determining XP awards for defeating enemies is given quite explicitly step by step on page 37 of the DMG, and taking multiple monsters into account is the very last step, adding up the already determined XP values, before going on to the next party member.
Ok. That kinda sucks. Ad Hoc awards are for roleplaying/doing awesome stuff/randomcraplikethat?

[Tomada]

Well, my DM friend (who has practically memorized the core books) says that's the formula. So if that's it, then huge army battle suck, because the CR would only be 79 for 1099511627776 hobgoblins :P
Heh. "Only."

probably a level 21 caster can do the trick with one, MAYBE 2 epic spells...

[Raxtenko]

Hey, confidence is sexy, and belkar has a lot of confidence....

By that extension thenMiko's even sexier. ;p

[Douglas]

Ok. That kinda sucks. Ad Hoc awards are for roleplaying/doing awesome stuff/randomcraplikethat?
Yes. For a (bad) example, see this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0125.html). It is entirely possible that Belkar will get an ad hoc award for making the big mound of dead hobgoblins and his declaration of godliness, but that is entirely separate from the rules for XP from killing enemies.

[tlc1145]

That needs to be a t-shirt

[Icewalker]

Hehehe, nice pile there.

Corpsey

[nusigf]

By that extension thenMiko's even sexier. ;p

As I once made my 3rd grade teacher say... "Ewwwww!"

[IronSoldier820]

Awesome, love that last panel.

[Sky_Schemer]

Those zooming-in close-ups on Belkar are truly a work of art.

[Shieldage]

Hey, what are the XP rules for army fighting? Are the OOtS XP gonna get severely shortened anyway due to the paladin presence? Or are they being tracked separately?



Anybody see Madness over at Newgrounds.com? http://www.newgrounds.com/collection/madness.html Belkar and the Main Character of that... Similar rate of kills. Bloodbath.

Dude, if The Giant collaborated with someone skilled at Flash and made a bunch of clever, preferably wordless (due to casting issues) but sound-effect intensive shorts... He could take the world by storm.

[sukotto]

All this comic needed was a 300 reference to be the most epic OOTS ever.

There are so many possibilities it's hard to pick just one...

{table]This is where I fight, this is where THEY die!

http://www.giantitp.com/avatars/HalflingRangerGuy.gif
[/table]

[Friv]

Others are confusing CR and EL or bringing up Ad Hoc awards. The process for determining XP awards for defeating enemies is given quite explicitly step by step on page 37 of the DMG, and taking multiple monsters into account is the very last step, adding up the already determined XP values, before going on to the next party member.

That's true!

My group had houseruled that so long ago I forgot it was a houserule. (Really, it's a pretty silly rule. Calculating XP for the Encounter Level would be both far faster, and make more sense for multiple-enemy situations.)

[Tredrick]

Counting the number of wounds we see him receive totals up to seven. The "X" on his face comes from two separate sword slashes. There are three other wounds on his face and one on each arm for a total of seven. Plus the two arrow shots which have disappeared by the final splash panel.

However, he has certainly killed more hobgoblins than we see in that panel. I do not see any ground under it, so there may be untold layers of hobs on the bottom. There are certainly more off to the left and right of the panel. Also, there will be some depth to the pile, so there are even more hobs hidden behind the pile that we can see.

Indeed, with the numbers already dead, and the sign that the wall seems to be be cleared since Haley and Durkon can stand there and have polite conversation without any sign of hobgoblins on the wall, that sexy, shoeless God of War might have broken the back of that attack.

Except for the eye of fear and flame. Oh, and the incoming hecuva and a few thousand reinforcements.

[CockroachTeaParty]

BWA HA HA HA HA HA!!! HA HA HA HA AHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

A heh heh... heh... hoooo....

*cough*

[kalo]

Priceless. I need to start playing D&D again and make a Halfling barbarian just so I can say that line. Brilliant.

:belkar: is not a barbarian he is a rogue with the greater two handed wep feat and tons of feats conserning daggers(dont remember wich)and(maybe some dex and const higher then average too)

[Demented]

Still, even though he gets no xp, Belkar should be 5500 gp richer.

Also, I believe Belkar now takes the record for single character with the most damage marks on him at once. Previous record was held by Roy in strip #200/#201.

[JetTheOne]

Belkar is nearing the end of his leash!

That is an awesome amount of Hobbos, much kudos to him for that. But if Belkar doesnt watch himself...
The prophecy will be fulfilled!

If you remember the prophecy, Belkar hasn't caused the death of (I think this is accurate) Roy, V, Miko, or Miko's horse, yet, so until he gets that kill, he's not dying anytime soon...

:durkon:
control weather
control weather
control weather
control weather
control weather
control weather
* white eyes *

[Bronzeevil]

:belkar: is not a barbarian he is a rogue with the greater two handed wep feat and tons of feats conserning daggers(dont remember wich)and(maybe some dex and const higher then average too)
He's Ranger/probably12 barb/1. The 'class and level geekery' thread explains this.

[Sturmjaeger]

Kratos has nothing on Belkar. :)

[Sturmjaeger]

:belkar: is not a barbarian he is a rogue with the greater two handed wep feat and tons of feats conserning daggers(dont remember wich)and(maybe some dex and const higher then average too)

It's been stated in the comic that Belkar is a Ranger/Barbarian. Haley's the Rogue.

[DrivinAllNight]

So worth staying up late to fix the Win95 system, I've been counting the strips since belkar fell into the hobgoblins just to see him do what he does best, just gotta love mass death and destruction of an enemy :)

[Scalenex]

Several unrelated points

1) Belkar can not be surrounded by eight hobgoblins. One shouldn't disparage the noble hexagon

2) My initial thought at the end was that Belkar wasn't getting exp because the fight wasn't rolled out and the DM summarized, since it's unfair for a DM to kill a PC without rolling dice, there is no risk so thus no exp. Anyway, I've fast forwarded through fighting hordes of minions in previous games to get to the fight with the villains quicker before.

3) Isn't the way you double things with large encounters involved exponential doubling

2 --> 4 --> 8 --> 16 --> 32 --> 64 --> 128 (roughly on par with Belkar's kills)

CR 1 --> CR 3 --> CR 5 --> CR 7--> CR 9--> CR 11--> CR 13 Exp for Belkar!

[cspariah]

Wow. Just, wow. Absolutely incredible. It blows my mind that this strip just keeps getting better.

[Shatteredtower]

Belkar sexy? Well, I wouldn't throw him out of my bed...

...for fear he'd murder me. Guess it's a good thing I've got a comfy chair in which to spend the night.

I do know that in his place, I wouldn't care in the least about xp for this one. Sometimes, that moment in the sun is worth so much more than that. When you're a bully like that, sometimes you just care about the chance to lord it over someone..

[Fineous Orlon]

Shoeless? Certainly.

God of War? Well, he's no Kratos...

Sexy? Ugh....

It's Belkar's opinion, and his exultation. Right now, within about 25 feet of him, on top of a mountain of ex-foes, only his opinion counts.

Works for me.

[Erathia]

Several unrelated points

1) Belkar can not be surrounded by eight hobgoblins. One shouldn't disparage the noble hexagon

Except they're not fighting on a grid, and as Roy notes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0175.html), you can normally surround with eight


Counting the number of wounds we see him receive totals up to seven. The "X" on his face comes from two separate sword slashes. There are three other wounds on his face and one on each arm for a total of seven. Plus the two arrow shots which have disappeared by the final splash panel.

I am fascinated by the weapon that strikes someone in a # pattern with only one blow.

Also there are any number of tears in his clothing, slashes on his feet and (presumably) some attacks on his back considering he was surrounded

[kagato3]

That's true!

My group had houseruled that so long ago I forgot it was a houserule. (Really, it's a pretty silly rule. Calculating XP for the Encounter Level would be both far faster, and make more sense for multiple-enemy situations.)
This is in fact how D20 Star Wars handles xp and I thought how 3.5 now handles it as well. In it all xp is based on the encounter rather than the enemy. makes book keeping much easyer and it is more realistic that you get some xp for makeing it through a large mob of low level enemies.

[Nightmarenny]

It's Belkar's opinion, and his exultation. Right now, within about 25 feet of him, on top of a mountain of ex-foes, only his opinion counts.

Works for me.
How exactly can you tell the sexy-ness of a stick figure? We can only look at the other characters for that. He got a girl in Azure before losing his leg and was once a pimp. By halfling standards he is sexy I guess.

[Fineous Orlon]

Okay, worked it out. Let's use MATH!

.....


As a Ranger 12/Barbarian 1 means Belkar gets the automatic 8HP from first level, then an average of 4 for 11 levels and 6 from the Barbarian levels, meaning without Constitution Modifiers he has around 58 HP. This should be fun for Class and Level Geekery, because this puts his CON Modifier at at least 14 (not unreasonable for a Warrior) in order to be able to survive. This gives him another +26 HP, placing him at 84HP.

I'd say he's in serious danger of dying, and deserves XP for this fight

I think Belkar gets a different number of hit points from levels alone.

If Belkar has 12 ranger levels and one barbarian level, he will have about [8 + [11x4.5] + [1x6.5]] or 8 + 49.5 + 6.5 or 64 hit points from levels alone. When dealing with multiple levels, the actual mean of the die rolled [for a d8, that is 4.5, for a d12, 6.5] is more useful and accurate than the 'easy mean' [for a d8, that is 4, for a d12, 6] that we hear about from time to time, even in the DanD books.

[Ariko]

well he IS. sexy and shoeless. and he did kill way over a hundred hobgoblins in a relatively short time..so what if they are a fraction of his cr..*glares around*

[spectralphoenix]

The problem with assigning XP based on EL is that a lot of times EL is kind of eyeballed, since there aren't rules to cover every situation (four ogres are EL 7, eight are EL 9, but what are five ogres?) Assigning based on the sum of the parts means you always have an exact answer. And note that in most cases with a precise EL the results will usually be the same (A CR 5 encounter gives twice as much xp as a CR 3 encounter.)

Besides which, the scale tends to break down at the extremes - 128 hobgoblins may be an EL 13 encounter, but look at the resources expended - Belkar is going to lose about 44 hit points, or the equivalent of a pair of CSW's. It's hardly an even fight.

[Jazzvader]

:belkar: is not a barbarian he is a rogue with the greater two handed wep feat and tons of feats conserning daggers(dont remember wich)and(maybe some dex and const higher then average too)

Belkar is a multiclass Ranger/Barbarian you numpty.

[Nightmarenny]

Using MATH gives a different outcome on hit points. If Belkar has 12 ranger levels and one barbarian level, he will have about [8 + [11x4.5] + [1x6.5]] or 8 + 49.5 + 6.5 or 64 hit points from levels alone. When dealing with multiple levels, and with MATH, the actual mean of the dice rolled [for a d8, that is 4.5, for a d12, 6.5] is more useful and accurate than the 'easy mean' [for a d8, that is 4, for a d12, 6] that we hear about from time to time, even in the DanD books.

Someone already worked on the other bit.
I'm sure the person you were talking to loves that your being so condescending, nothing bring people to your side like talking to them like their idiots. I know I personally love that. I'm sure everyone knows how smart you are now and will listen to whatever you think.

Congrates

[Fineous Orlon]

How exactly can you tell the sexy-ness of a stick figure? We can only look at the other characters for that. He got a girl in Azure before losing his leg and was once a pimp. By halfling standards he is sexy I guess.

I can't. As I said:


It's Belkar's opinion, and his exultation. Right now, within about 25 feet of him, on top of a mountain of ex-foes, only his opinion counts.

Works for me.

I'm using his opinion. I'm fine with his own self-proclamation. Good for him. He's not going to ask me if he's a sexy shoeless god of war, and if he does, I'd say something brainless and agreeable like "you rock, dude" or "you conquered mount orange!" or "how's the view from up there, any more coming?"

[cyberchihuahua]

I was scrolling slowly, as I always do to avoid spoiling the next frames. The battle raged, Belkar started getting overwhelmed, and at the very end it looked like he may well die. I was actually concerned. Then I realised it was a double post and srolled down to see Belkar on a pile of bodies, and I actually cheered.

Giant, you should do screen plays.

[Fineous Orlon]

I'm sure the person you were talking to loves that your being so condescending, nothing bring people to your side like talking to them like their idiots. I know I personally love that. I'm sure everyone knows how smart you are now and will listen to whatever you think.

Congrates

Responded by PM, edited for tone.

[Casinodwarf]

I say :belkar: should get XP just for being a sexy shoeless god of war.

[SMDVogrin]

I am fascinated by the weapon that strikes someone in a # pattern with only one blow.

I'm pretty sure that's an OOTS representation of a bruise. See Miko here:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html

where she has a # symbol on her forehead where she got whacked by the lead sheet. (Her other # she got off-camera, so we can't say where that one came from...)

[rosebud]

So.... does his reaction mean he gets an ADDITIONAL rage fest? (I'd love to see him creating repeated mountains of hobgoblins until the entire countryside is littered with mountains of hobgoblin and ghoul corpses.)

[lovelyluthien]

I say :belkar: should get XP just for being a sexy shoeless god of war.

Exactly. I am so glad that my DM awards XP for being cool... Poor Belkar. Excellent role-playing, I say!

And: nice quip at the DMG, Giant!

[Darkxarth]

Definitely an awesome strip. Always great to see comic strip combat, and Belkar is one of the greatest. :smalltongue:

[Hototo]

atta kid Belkar! The best balding, midget with Little Man Syndrom ever!

[Dragor]

I'm sorry, but I am going to quote that line. Often.

Very very well done Giant. Have a cookie. :smallbiggrin:

[Tobrian]

First let me say: So many great comic strips in a row! Whoo! The Wednesday one was hilarious, but this one was... hilarious in another way. Action! Drama! Suspense! :smallbiggrin:


Haley and Durkon are apparently not quite up to speed on 3.5 rules. :smallwink: (This isn't a criticism of the Giant, mind. Fictional characters can and do have different opinions or knowledge than their creator, after all.)

Even if a single 1st level hobgoblin NPC-class warrior has a CR of only 1/2 and 6 hp, there's two things to consider:

a) the rule of scaling CR: doubling the number of monsters in one encounter adds +2 to CR each time; if you start with a CR 1/2 monster, four of them are CR 2, 8 of them are CR 4 and so on. It breaks down at higher numbers, of course, but that's why 3.5 has...

b) .... MOB rules! Rules for mobs, similar to the rules for swarms, appear in the DMG 3.5 and the supplement Cityscape; there are premade stats for sample mobs and variants (such as a throng of children, or a stampede of hooved animals).

c) And if mob rules don't apply, since this is an army of trained fighters (plus undead monsters), there's always the battlefield rules for enemy Units in WotC Heroes of Battle supplement.


From Cityscape, page 124-125:
A mob of 1st level human commoner citizens for example is CR 8, is considered a Gargantuan creature made up of a number of medium humanoids, has 30 HD and 135 hp, takes up a space of 20, does 5d6 automatic damage AND gets trample attacks, has such feats as Improved Init, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, and gets the Expert Grappler attack option.

A mob made up of hobgoblins would get higher CON (and since these are fighters, higher STR as well), which would modify the mob stats.

THere's no definite number of individuals in a mob, but it's much lower than creatures in a swarm, since swarms are made up of hundreds or thousands of tiny, diminutive or fine creatures filling a 3-D volume, while a standard mob is assumed to be made up of medium humanoids. A few dozen individuals, perhaps, looking at the HD number. So a bunch of many dozens or hundreds of creatures simply consists of several mobs adjacent to each other.

And Belkar was definitely completely surrounded by enemies... in the last panels I'm counting at least... um... something like 60 dead hobgoblins on this side of the pile alone? It's hard to make out t he exact number of dead.
A full-scale melee battle isn't just a simple CR 1/2 encounter, with 100 times 0 XP! Belkar took heavy damage, he was nearly overwhelmed, so it was a challenge. (Heroes of Battle again. Dammit now I sound like a rules-lawyer.)

Edited to add: Since we don't know how many hp Belkar actually has, and how many damage he took (who cares, math kills dramatic moments), I tihnk we can all agree that he took a lot of damage. He looks pretty beat up and bloodied, sailing on the adrenalin rush.

But let's keep in mind that the game designers think that a standard encounter means FOUR PCs of level x beating up a monster(s) of the same EL... and that such an encounter, of the same EL, should ideally only force the PCs to expend about a fifth of their resources (spells, hp, healing, expendable magic, etc) and still gives you XP. A fight where you come close to being overwhelmed and lose more must've been tougher. And thankfully, 3.5 differs from 3.0 in that the DMG finally acknowledges (page 39) that an encounter that was far tougher due to circumstances (i.e. PCs ambushed, having to fight when their resources are already depleted, monsters holed up in a fortified place) should have a higher EL and should net more XP accordingly than merely beating up a few scattered wandering monsters.

[Pantler]

All these XP rules are precisely why I'm afraid of D&D.

But BEFORE I read through five pages of CR calculating methods discussion... I laughed out loud at this comic. Great suspense, great art, outstanding punchline. And Belkar sexier than ever :biggrin:

On a separate note, the film 300 sucked. :smalltongue:

[Rift_Wolf]

I only got this comic up two minutes ago and there's already five pages!? People really love that sexy shoeless god of war!

[V Junior]

This was HILARIOUS!!!! I agree with the people who say Belkar should get roleplaying XP! And maybe Belkar should get a medal and bail. Why bail? Well, he started off by saving Lord Hinjo (worth something cool in my book) and THEN he started turning the tides of battle. So long as Belkar stays outside the city walls, he'll...

WAIT A SECOND!!!!! How long will it take for Belkar to be 1 mile or more away from Roy? Belkar's heading outwards (towards RC and the MitD), and Roy is heading inwards (towards the gate)! BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP!!!!!

[Mummy king]

:belkar: IS A SEXY, SHOELESS GOD OF WAR!

(sigged XD)

[themunck]

I think Belkar gets a different number of hit points from levels alone.

If Belkar has 12 ranger levels and one barbarian level, he will have about [8 + [11x4.5] + [1x6.5]] or 8 + 49.5 + 6.5 or 64 hit points from levels alone. When dealing with multiple levels, the actual mean of the die rolled [for a d8, that is 4.5, for a d12, 6.5] is more useful and accurate than the 'easy mean' [for a d8, that is 4, for a d12, 6] that we hear about from time to time, even in the DanD books.
a ranger uses a d10 for hit points, not a d8...

[Tauntaun13]

It's good to see Durkon again but I think he needs a whole strip on his own, he's been neglected since the battle started. I mean, Roy, V, Belkar, Elan, they all had strips dedicated to them. Haley hasn't been on too much either, but at least she participated in the "note-exchange" incident with Elan. Even Hinjo has seen more action than Durkon! I understand that he is mainly a healer (and that there are no trees around so the joke potential is low :P) but there must be something he can do...

[Brawl]

Awesome :D:D:D What can I more say? but I guess giving 0 XP for killing such amount of enemy is crap.

[happyturtle]

It's Belkar's opinion, and his exultation. Right now, within about 25 feet of him, on top of a mountain of ex-foes, only his opinion counts.

Works for me.

If Azure City is saved, and Belkar lives, he'll be a war hero. I'm sure he'll have no trouble getting some. :belkar:

[Demonicbunny]

a ranger uses a d10 for hit points, not a d8...

Nope, in 3.5 it's a d8.

[zombie chick]

WAIT A SECOND!!!!! How long will it take for Belkar to be 1 mile or more away from Roy? Belkar's heading outwards (towards RC and the MitD), and Roy is heading inwards (towards the gate)! BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP!!!!!

that is a very valid and suddenly monumentally important point you have raised. i seriously hope that someone remembers, though who would be brave enough to get anywhere near belkar to remind him of this while he is in the grip of homicidal fury i hesitate to guess. and roy seems to be quite set on raging against xyron at the moment, who will save our halfling?

wait, what was my original intention of posting? oh yes, that strip was really good.:smallbiggrin:

[Laesin]

Nope, in 3.5 it's a d8.

Beaten to the post

[The Glitter Ninja]

That was awesome. I confess that once again I had to as my AD&D playing husband to explain the punchline. Me and my silly GURPS ways.

[Fingolfin]

lol, indeed there were a lot of hobogoblins to add :smallbiggrin: At a moment I really thought Belkar might won't make it, and someone will have to heal/rezz :smallsmile: Poor little devil, won't get any XP hehe, great comic :smallwink:

[Jachra]

That Great Cleave really comes in handy, don' it? Especially when you're threatening spaces in three dimensions.

[Nightwing]

I think the best character was :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar:

[Closet_Skeleton]

It's a pity he's not playing d20 Modern. In d20 Modern you get XP for the whole encounter. Sadly this means that fighting 3 CR 3 enemies one after another yields more XP than fighting both at once. 3 CR 3 enemies are EL 6 which yields 2550 XP while a single CR 3 is EL 3 which yields 900 XP (which would be 2700 XP for fighiting 3 one after another). This is rather counterintuitive. The EL modifier also caps at +6 so 64 CR 1/2 enemies is EL7 which would give 500 XP to a 13th level character..

[warmachine]

Belkar had better get back inside the city before archers or clerics with Spiritual Weapon notice him.

[Carabas]

This is a wonderful punchline... and it got to hurt a halfling's feelings once he realizes. ;)

[Caractacus]

Rich really pokes good fun at the game rules here (as someone noted a couple of pages ago). I love it!

I gave up on the game over ten years ago and played only more freewheeling games afterwards with fewer tight rules.

If you have a good, trustworthy DM and players that are intelligent and experienced roleplayers, there's no need for ANY rules on XP awards at all.

The point is, though, that if the DM isn't sufficiently experienced or the players don't have faith in him or her, then you DO need these guidelines to install balance and some predictability.

I was extraordinarily fortunate in the quality of my players and my DMs...

P.S. And Belkar would get full XP for this from me. I don't know ANYTHING about the EL and CR system as they are totally new to me, but looking at the risk he ran and the roleplaying - there's XP for him at close of play.

Additionally, if XP for monsters is calculated as it used to be 'when I were a lad', then they are only worth a small amount individually anyway - so he's only a fraction of his way further on in any case.

Plus, they are EXPERIENCE points, and I bet he's never experienced anything like this before - how to fight and win when being swarmed by masses of opponents with no help close by.

A class act by Belkar! :smallcool:

PPS. Whoever said that the system is designed to stop players levelling up after killing 10,000 rats is a bit odd. I'd allow it - and the players would suffer: Of course, the rats must be a threat - so no breeding them in a cage and gassing them. And they have to find 10,000 of them...each. They'll be two years' older by then. And they'll need 20,000 for the next level. Honestly.

[gooddragon1]

Fear not belkar, there is hope:
AD Hoc Exp

Even if he is too high of level, he still took damage which shows a challenge therefore xp can be awarded. That or freeform...

[Douglas]

a) the rule of scaling CR: doubling the number of monsters in one encounter adds +2 to CR each time; if you start with a CR 1/2 monster, four of them are CR 2, 8 of them are CR 4 and so on. It breaks down at higher numbers, of course, but that's why 3.5 has...
As I have posted repeatedly, including the exact page reference once, it is Encounter Level that scales like that, not CR, and XP is based on the CR of each individual monster. See page 37 of the DMG for reference.


b) .... MOB rules! Rules for mobs, similar to the rules for swarms, appear in the DMG 3.5 and the supplement Cityscape; there are premade stats for sample mobs and variants (such as a throng of children, or a stampede of hooved animals).
Mobs do not appear in the DMG but in the DMGII. Neither DMGII nor Cityscape are core and OotS uses core rules (almost) exclusively. Even for games that do use those two books, the mob template is an entirely optional DM tool.


c) And if mob rules don't apply, since this is an army of trained fighters (plus undead monsters), there's always the battlefield rules for enemy Units in WotC Heroes of Battle supplement.
Heroes of Battle is also not core. See above.


And Belkar was definitely completely surrounded by enemies... in the last panels I'm counting at least... um... something like 60 dead hobgoblins on this side of the pile alone? It's hard to make out t he exact number of dead.
A full-scale melee battle isn't just a simple CR 1/2 encounter, with 100 times 0 XP! Belkar took heavy damage, he was nearly overwhelmed, so it was a challenge. (Heroes of Battle again. Dammit now I sound like a rules-lawyer.)
Yes, the Encounter Level was fairly high. The Challenge Rating of each individual hobgoblin is still just 1/2, and 100 times 0 XP is exactly how core rules work for such an encounter.


But let's keep in mind that the game designers think that a standard encounter means FOUR PCs of level x beating up a monster(s) of the same EL... and that such an encounter, of the same EL, should ideally only force the PCs to expend about a fifth of their resources (spells, hp, healing, expendable magic, etc) and still gives you XP. A fight where you come close to being overwhelmed and lose more must've been tougher.
Or you just had really bad luck. Regardless of what you reasonably should get for a huge mass of weak enemies, the point of this comic's punchline is that the actual rules say you get nothing.


And thankfully, 3.5 differs from 3.0 in that the DMG finally acknowledges (page 39) that an encounter that was far tougher due to circumstances (i.e. PCs ambushed, having to fight when their resources are already depleted, monsters holed up in a fortified place) should have a higher EL and should net more XP accordingly than merely beating up a few scattered wandering monsters.
No such circumstances apply in this case. It was just a straightforward melee where Belkar and the hobgoblins stood openly and attacked each other until dead.

[Tredrick]

I am fascinated by the weapon that strikes someone in a # pattern with only one blow.

Also there are any number of tears in his clothing, slashes on his feet and (presumably) some attacks on his back considering he was surrounded

The cross hatch pattern (#) is the traditional way of displaying a wound from a blunt force trauma from a club, fist or other bludgeoning instrument.

Tears in clothes do not indicate a wound beneath them. Indeed, the lack of blood indicates there was no cut and no contact with his flesh made.

There are no slashes on his feet, only his usually foot hair.

The condition of his cloak indicates his back came through remarkably unscathed.

This has been your ridiculous over analysis for the day.

[Sebastian Bux]

Well, he might get a little xp from the fight. I mean, he's by himself and he's grossly outnumbered. Maybe a point of xp or two at least? :)

[Kriel]

Wow. All I can say is...

Rock on, Belkar.

[Duke of URL]

Haley and Durkon's comments beg the important philosophical question: does Belkar just like killing for killing's sake? Or is he really in it for the XP?

[Sam de Cheese]

Is it just me or have we not seen Durkon in ages? Is that how forgetable he is, that he would get left out of the past 9 strips? And he only got a brief mention at that!

[Stormwolf]

Can we just agree that Belkar gets XP if the GM decides to award XP?

I've been DMing since 1981 and after several years of trying to calculate precise xp rewards down to the last point I realised that
a) 99.9% of players don't care, as long as they are enjoying the game and feel their character is being rewarded comensurate with their participation
b) 99.9% of players can't keep track (by the end of the session) anyway.

XP should always be awarded at the GM's discretion in any situation. A solo attack on an entire company of hobgoblins by a psychotic / psychopath halfling ranger/barbarian would get an award for playing in character if nothing else.

In my games I usually have some approximate XP award for each encounter, depending on how the PCs handle it. Rigidly applying the rules in every situation is for people with no imagination and if you have no imagination you have no place playing D&D.

[BisectedBrioche]

I can't help but feel that Belkar could easily defeat Kratos, not to mention Dante, Sam Fisher, Leon Scott Kennedy, and maybe Snake.

However he would be too busy lusting to defeat the likes Lara Croft, Samus Aran (without her helmet) or Jill Valentine.
Plus have you noticed that female video game characters always seem to have a second name?

[Delgarde]

I am fascinated by the weapon that strikes someone in a # pattern with only one blow.


# marks normally denote bruising and abrasions, rather than cuts from a bladed weapon.

[Threeshades]

BEST

STRIP

EVER!


'nuff said.

[Delgarde]

Is it just me or have we not seen Durkon in ages? Is that how forgetable he is, that he would get left out of the past 9 strips? And he only got a brief mention at that!


Not entirely left out - he was in the last one too, albeit barely visible next to Haley.

Of course, she's not appeared much either, the action focusing mostly on Belkar and Varsuuvius of late. I mean, even Roy has had only a couple of comics covering his fight with Xykon, much fewer than those two...

[Caractacus]

Can we just agree that Belkar gets XP if the GM decides to award XP?

I've been DMing since 1981 and after several years of trying to calculate precise xp rewards down to the last point I realised that
a) 99.9% of players don't care, as long as they are enjoying the game and feel their character is being rewarded comensurate with their participation
b) 99.9% of players can't keep track (by the end of the session) anyway.

XP should always be awarded at the GM's discretion in any situation. A solo attack on an entire company of hobgoblins by a psychotic / psychopath halfling ranger/barbarian would get an award for playing in character if nothing else.

In my games I usually have some approximate XP award for each encounter, depending on how the PCs handle it. Rigidly applying the rules in every situation is for people with no imagination and if you have no imagination you have no place playing D&D.

Quite. My point exactly. Yup.

Of course, other people like the system for its predictability, so one man's meat is another man's poison, I guess. :smallsmile:

[Cade Shadow]

I don't think it works like that, after all you don't see adventurers running after hundreds of rats =)

you don't see them, I'm sure DnD group either has, or will now, bring up this point to a DM and chase down hundreds of rats. Of course for that to work they all have to be in one place.... Summon Swarm!

[Nervous Twitch]

EL is used ONLY to estimate how hard the fight will be, not for calculating XP.

Douglas, you absolute star!

Speaking as someone who has DM'ed many a D&D game and who has often struggled with the written eplanations of rules in the books, you have just answered a MAJOR point of confusion i had regarding the 'official' method of calculating XP!

Its so simple! Why couldn't the DMG have explained it like that!?

I only tended to use the CR and EL as guides anyway, as I couldn't make much sense of what they were trying to tell me. I always favoured giving awards for players doing 'cool stuff', which I bolstered with XP from actual encounters. In other words, in my games, a player who doesn't kill a sinlge hobgoblin, but whose actions further the game and entertain the other players was likely to get the biggest award of all... :smallsmile:

So any player whose character came out with a corking one-liner like Belkars' on top of a pile of corpses would be getting top marks from me!

You've gotta love OOTS - to me it just seems to be getting better and better

Thanks again! :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

[spectralphoenix]

P.S. And Belkar would get full XP for this from me. I don't know ANYTHING about the EL and CR system as they are totally new to me, but looking at the risk he ran and the roleplaying - there's XP for him at close of play. That's exactly it - according to the appropriate tables, full exp = 0. It works on a sliding scale instead of a flat reward like it used to. And as I pointed out earlier, he wasn't even in serious danger.

[Kilkomir]

Great strip. :smallsmile:

I would also like to see the last frame made into a desktop wallpaper or a t-shirt in the near future.

Keep up the great work, Giant.

:belkar: rocks!

[battleburn]

One more reason I'm glad I play Ars Magica 5th edition. When fighting battles there is a whole system for group style fighting. Even in D&D it is possible to use it. Look at Riches Piranha Swarm (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/LikdZboAmZOKxrp5uD0.html). All the little fish make a swarm creature of CR3. Think of what CR a 100 hobgoblin large swarm/troup whould make. My guess enough for Belkar to get XP for it. And if I would GM this battle I think I would prefer rolling for a troup instead of rolling for every hobgoblin seperately.

[Estelindis]

Harsh, but fair. :smallbiggrin:

[Abelard]

That Great Cleave really comes in handy, don' it? Especially when you're threatening spaces in three dimensions.

Hey, that's a good point. In several of the panels, it is reasonable to assume that he is being surrounded in more than 2 dimensions, so possibly more than 8 hobbos at once.

Was this Belkar's first full-out Rage attack?* If so, I bet he'll be kicking himself later for "wasting" all those levels in Ranger.

*Nope - see #176.

[Mad Scientist]

Aw, the poor Belkster. I have the feeling he might not care about the XP too much. After all, he finally got to unleash some stabbity death!

[bigsuperwill]

that is so cool:smallbiggrin:



proud extermenater of the cult of
orthodox Banjoists
we currently have: 2 members:smallwink:

(copy and paste that into your signiture to join, and send me a sacrificed goat and/or a message saying you have joined)

[Caractacus]

That's exactly it - according to the appropriate tables, full exp = 0. It works on a sliding scale instead of a flat reward like it used to. And as I pointed out earlier, he wasn't even in serious danger.

I think you gave your opinion that he wasn't in serious danger, rather than 'pointed out', which suggests fact.

My opinion is that Rich covered Belkar with injuries and had him clearly hit by arrows specifically for the readers to understand that he WAS in danger.

And, again, the point of the joke was that despite taking risks, being in danger, getting hurt and contributing to the overall goal of saving Azure City, he gets nothing. [Save, of course, a roleplaying bonus, in all likelihood]



Spectral Phoenix says: "Besides which, the scale tends to break down at the extremes - 128 hobgoblins may be an EL 13 encounter, but look at the resources expended - Belkar is going to lose about 44 hit points, or the equivalent of a pair of CSW's. It's hardly an even fight."

But I have to throw in a word of caution here, too. Take a first level fighter dealing with two orcs. He has about 11 HP (assuming a Con bonus) and the orcs some 5 or so. He wins the fight, but he's down to 3 HP. About the same as 1 Cure Light Wounds spell. It was hardly an even fight? It was. You have to live and be attended to to benefit from the CLW. One more hit and he'd be bleeding to death, unconscious. Assuming he didn't simultaneously somehow kill the orc, it's doubtful anyone will get a chance to stabilise him.

In any case, this line of thinking from above ('even fight') leads inexorably to near-death experiences for players who want to get ANY XP. If Belkar is on anything from under half (by the best calculations) to about 15%ish (by the worst) of his HPs and yet STILL doesn't get ANY XPs, I just can't fathom the logic. Give him half if you want, but none?

That, I think, is Rich's whole point about the XP system in the game here:

Belkar is heroic, Belkar risks his life, Belkar is successful - Belkar gets nothing.

Is funny!

[bigsuperwill]

that is so cool:smallbiggrin:



proud extermenater of the cult of
orthodox Banjoists
we currently have: 2 members:smallwink:

(copy and paste that into your signiture to join, and send me a sacrificed goat and/or a message saying you have joined)

:thog:i hate banjos
:elan:(sob) bwaa!
:roy: bad thog you made elan cry

[Blaznak]

WHEEEE!!!!! Hobgob slayin' fun!!!! I'm trying to hook up a DVD recorder and just being able read about Belkar was a great diversion... Now back to the impossible task...

[Swashbuckler]

"I AM A SEXY SHOELESS GOD OF WAR!"

New favorite single. greatest. line. ever.

[Tundar]

I'm not sure he will care much about not getting xp for that. He got the chance of inflicting a heap of damage without getting in trouble with either Roy nor Azure City.

Badass!

[Lefty the Drunken Lush]

Belkar's just made his own ramp all by himself.

Dwarf sighting!

[Copacetic]

*snort* man, that was funny

[Azukar]

I'm guessing by now someone's referenced the actual God of War series for the Playstation? 'Cos that's what tends to happen when Kratos (God of War's pro(an)tagonist gets stuck into a bunch of unfriendlies.

[Wardog]

He might not get any xp for that...


But at least he should be able to loot the corpses. That should be some compensation.

[theotherone]

All this comic needed was a 300 reference to be the most epic OOTS ever.

Hobgoblin: This is slaughter! This is madness!
Belkar: THIS IS SHORTNESS!

[happyturtle]

I always got the impression that the 'DM' for OOTS is the universe, enforcing the rules inflexibly like a computer, rather than a living person who can be appealed to. For example, in strip 1, a normal DM would sit down with characters between sessions (and probably between campaigns) to upgrade them, not do it in the middle of combat.

So the 'DM' will probably give Belkar some role-playing XP, but none for the pile of corpses. And despite the euphoria of killing, he's not going to be happy with that!

[Suiadan]

Belkar will get xp for all of the hogoblins that he fought, accordind to d&d rules it doent matter if you are fighting 1st level monsters and you are level 10 if they are enough they can add up to be a challenge rating enough to give you some xp.

[Roethke]

I would so buy a wallpaper-shot of that last panel. Very Cool.

[Douglas]

Belkar will get xp for all of the hogoblins that he fought, accordind to d&d rules it doent matter if you are fighting 1st level monsters and you are level 10 if they are enough they can add up to be a challenge rating enough to give you some xp.
Read the step by step process for determining combat XP on page 37 of the DMG. That process would give a level 10 character no XP at all for defeating mere CR 1 enemies even if there were billions of them.

[bosssmiley]

/r/ a "Belkar on a mound of the dead" desktop background please, please, pretty please with sugar and a cherry on top. :smallbiggrin:

:belkar: "Madness? This is SHORTER!!!!"
(couldn't resist, although I see theotherone beat me to the punch)

Halflings are better than Spartans though; halflings *always* fight in the shade. :smallsmile:

As for the XP question. Would counting the Hobgoblins in mobs, rather than as individuals, increase their CR sufficiently to be considered a meaningful threat to a mid-high level character like Belkar?

[Baal]

Why wouldn't he get any xp? I don't get it...

[Megalomaniac2]

Wow. Just wow.

That Huecuva better show up soon or Belkar's going to win the battle solo. I expect the Eye of Fear and Flame has already made tracks...

Oh, and it's good to see that Durkon's actually still part of the Order. I was afraid this episode would mark 10 strips without him at least appearing.

[EvilElitest]

[QUOTE=SPoD;2393497]People, people, there are two separate conversations going on here. Wehter Belkar DESERVES XP is entirely separate from a joke making fun of the literal way the XP rules work.

Of course Belkar deserves XP in any reasonable well-DM'd game. But that's not the joke! The joke is that if you follow the exact rules in the DMG, Belkar gets 0 XP.

For all the degree to which people complain that Rich doesn't put satire of the D&D rules in anymore, they seem awful eager to try to criticize his skills as a DM when he does!
QUOTE]
Well said
from,
EE

[Valley]

Great Comic!
Right now I don't think he cares about XP but I am wondering. How much can you get for selling a Hobgoblin's kidney on the black-market? Just asking...

[kerberos]

Haley and Durkon's comments beg the important philosophical question: does Belkar just like killing for killing's sake? Or is he really in it for the XP?
I think that there can only be one correct answer to that question, and that answert is:

Yes.

[Loyal2NES]

Epic!

Signatures will not do for something of this magnitude. I expect... nay, demand Belkar's quote on a T-Shirt! :smallbiggrin:

[The_Shaman]

I think he should get some XP for that though... It's just so - him - and besides, as we can see that many hobgoblins were a bit of a challenge.

[MReav]

I'm just wondering when Belkar realizes he's suffering XP penalties for multiclassing?


:belkar: So wait, not only did I not get any XP for a hobgoblin pyramid that's over 4 times my height, but I'm also level behind you hosers too?!?!?

At which point, we see the MoJ in action.

[Rambi]

Xp or not that was one of the greatest fighting scenes i've seen in a comic, I mean WOW!

[Ave]

That's exactly it - according to the appropriate tables, full exp = 0. It works on a sliding scale instead of a flat reward like it used to. And as I pointed out earlier, he wasn't even in serious danger.

Wasn't he? Seeing his scratches he is well below half his full hp.

Btw, i hate the CR XP calculations, especially if they are rigidly used. Early in the game XP comes plenty but later you can get easily killed by something that would only offer 0 XP. I guess this system is to control powerplayers, but actually forces powerplaying. Oops, went a bit offtopic :smallbiggrin:

[Ave]

Great Comic!
Right now I don't think he cares about XP but I am wondering. How much can you get for selling a Hobgoblin's kidney on the black-market? Just asking...
Depends on how many waits for a transplant.

[Blood]

Awesome. Pure awesome.

[Baalzebub]

:belkar: I AM A SEXY SHOELESS GOD OF WAR!!!

Priceless... he should get xp for roleplaying, at least :smalltongue:

[Basil von Shard]

Epic!

Signatures will not do for something of this magnitude. I expect... nay, demand Belkar's quote on a T-Shirt! :smallbiggrin:

I absolutely concur with that assessment. I really would like that t shirt as well.

[darkblade]

I'm guessing by now someone's referenced the actual God of War series for the Playstation? 'Cos that's what tends to happen when Kratos (God of War's pro(an)tagonist gets stuck into a bunch of unfriendlies.

That has to be a reference or would the Giant "Dare defy The God of War,"

[Tura]

I'd say he's in serious danger of dying, and deserves XP for this fight
I would gladly grant Belkar xp for roleplaying, and lots of them, but for the fight, no way. Yes, he was in danger of dying, your math is correct, but it was his fault. Nobody forced him to fall upon the heads of the enemy hordes. When you do that, you either win and still get no xp, or you die and serves you right for being reckless. :smalltongue:
[/harsh DM]

PS- Great, great strip!

[pendell]

Wooo Belkar! You da halfling!

Woo Giant! You da strip-writer!

I personally, would give Belkar story award and roleplaying award XP. IMO, that's precisely what rule zero is for: To paper over any brokenness in the system.

The XP for lower characters is a rule makes perfect sense to stop people hunting down individual rats for XP, or killing beggars in the streets.

Fighting a hobgoblin horde, possibly saving the city? Especially that cool line at the end? That deserves XP, rules or no.

Funny ... players hardly ever complain about the rules being bent when you're bending them in their favor. As long as you're fair and bend them for everyone and not just for the GM's girlfriend.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[jindra34]

I would award belkar xp for that nut only like 500... a lame amount for his level...

[Hushdawg]

WOOHOO!

Awesome combat strip! I don't think I've seen comic combat action this good in a long time.

Responding to the thread (after READING all of it)

1) Yes Belkar probably would not get XP for the encounter because in a DM position it would be much smarter to give a large slice of XP for all players participating in the WAR and then dole out XP for any major villains killed.

2) Belkar would most definitely get Roleplay XP, however that doesn't change the fact that the actual XP from the kills in this strip is either nothing or next to nothing.

3) The primary reason why CR to XP tables exist is to prevent wholesale slaughter of entire villages by players. Oh, sure it still happens; but the players are not rewarded for such an action.

4) The slashes on Belkar do indicate damage, but it could be as low as 1hp each. It is erroneous to assume that 8 cuts equals 32 damage.

5) The expression "God of War" is older than the entire Sony Corporation, let alone a video game franchise.

Sorry to use blunt damage type on a low-level equine creature type.

[Hushdawg]

Funny ... players hardly ever complain about the rules being bent when you're bending them in their favor. As long as you're fair and bend them for everyone and not just for the GM's girlfriend.


Wow... you must have gamed with my former DM...

:D

Scenario:

DM: Okay everyone has to take *rolls dice* 15 damage from the chain lightning boobytrap.

DM's Wife: But! My character was at the back, she jumped out of the way when she saw the lightning start!!!

DM: *sigh* Okay, everyone takes 15 damage except ******, she takes 7 because she dove. out of the way.

DM's Wife: Uh! 7 Damage!!!

DM: Oh, okay, it didn't penetrate your armor.. so there's just a burn on your plate mail.

DM's Wife: *scowl*

Yeah... I refer to those as my "torture years" of D&D

[R.O.A.]

2nd best line ever! :biggrin: (after 'woo! I'm invisable!' :smallcool: )


:belkar: I'm a Sexy Shoeless God of War!!!!

:smallbiggrin: Fab comic, even if it only takes two seconds to read those all picture ones, that line was so worht it:smallbiggrin:

[Araes]

Always enjoy the Belkar comics. There's almost no amount of evil that can't be muted with lots of comedy.

And on the topic of the XP / killing - from a rough approximation:

If we assume a 3D pile, conical spreading of the pile, and that a hobgoblin's volume is basically equal to two hobgoblin heads:

Then using the hobgoblin head as a reference, and the slant of the pile at 3 head units down, it looks like the pile should contain about 1600 head units, or 800 hobgoblins. Obviously a rough approx, since we don't know what the pile does outside the frame, or if we're seeing the bottom at 8 head units down, but still not bad for a day's work.

If we argue that we can't assume 3D (IE, they're sticks, its a 2D world), then in a 2D sense, by counting the number at 3 heads down, it should still contain at least 85 hobgoblins.

My personal opinion is that he would just fall under the Ad Hoc XP rules on page 39 and call it good. From the look of Belkar, it seems that he's drained a significant portion of his personal resources killing those hobgoblins. So he could probably be worthy of something like exp for 1-2 encounters of his EL depending on how much it really drained him.

[Professor Tanhauser]

Belkar's reff to his being "Sexy" made me wonder if he could ever make love like he makes war.

As a result, I suffered an imediate image of an unclothed belkar, adorned with scratches and bite marks, standig atop a pile of naked, exhausted, unconscious women screaming "I am a shoeless warrior god of sex!"

If I have to suffer that one, so do all of you now...

[Soulguard]

I'm not sure he will care much about not getting xp for that. He got the chance of inflicting a heap of damage without getting in trouble with either Roy nor Azure City.

More so he might even get a Thank You and that mark taken off him after he served the city so well and proficient.

I can't really imagine Belkar being that obsessed with Levelling - not after his gigantic disappointment with the "change to 3.5" ;)

All he wants (and who could deny a lovely charming halfling like the Belkster such a wish?) is to do a little stabbing and decapitating and murdering from time to time... and getting rid of Miko's steed and V ;)





"I am a shoeless warrior god of sex!"

I think the more appropriate way to twist it that way would be "I am a wary shoeless god of sex" :smalltongue:

[Professor Tanhauser]

I actually felt sorry for that one hob in this issue. The one that belkar had his foot in the mouth of in that one panel.

I mean, in addition to dying, he had to have belkar's big, hairry, stinky, filthy foot in his mouth.

Oh yuk!

[Nekkira]

Love Belkar's expression and his pronouncement.

[SteveMB]

Belkar's reff to his being "Sexy" made me wonder if he could ever make love like he makes war.

As a result, I suffered an imediate image of an unclothed belkar, adorned with scratches and bite marks, standig atop a pile of naked, exhausted, unconscious women screaming "I am a shoeless warrior god of sex!"

If I have to suffer that one, so do all of you now...

Excuse me; I need to go soak my brain in acid....

[jindra34]

Excuse me; I need to go soak my brain in acid....

Acid? acid is too weak to get that image out of my mind... any advice on the matter...?

[Nightmarenny]

Acid? acid is too weak to get that image out of my mind... any advice on the matter...?
Embrace it. Put yourself in Belkars place.

Become the Shoeless warrior god of sex.

[Reptilus]

I count 69 Hobgoblins visible in the last panel. It may be 70; I can't tell if one of the torsos is from a goblin head I counted or not.
So, there are at least 69-70 casualties, not counting the bodies in the middle of the pile too deep for us to see.

[jindra34]

Embrace it. Put yourself in Belkars place.

Become the Shoeless warrior god of sex.
this response was worth my silly comment... an utterly riduculos solution to an insane problem

[the_tick_rules]

yeah that 8 cr rule is gonna be so unfair, he deserves a xp chunk for sheer awesomeness.

[cheezewizz2000]

Let me draw your attention to this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0425.html) strip. Rich already did a 300 reference.

That isn't a 300 reference. Arrows blotting out the sun is a reference to the battle the film 300 was based on. I think that comic came out slightly before the film did any way.

[Krade]

Either way, it's still a relatively well known line. I learned it in history class over 4 years ago. If you know that, then anyone would figure that it would be in the book/movie. And while I never saw any previews for the movie, I would bet that that line was used in one of them.

And still, it doesn't matter what anything really is. What matters is how people percieve it. I'm certain that most people percieved the line as a 300 reference. So, even if it wasn't really a 300 reference, it was anyway.

That all made sense to me, but I can understand if it doesn't to someone else.

[chibibar]

By the Book, Belkar won't get exp, but luckily we are playing table top D&D type game (or should we say comic, but the idea is the same) GM/DM can give exp if the situation warrants it. There are so many ways of giving xp. I know I use to give xp when people find things or being pretty creative in their solution (I gues some would say roleplay) but as a GM I can give exp if it is warrant.

Of course as a GM, I won't just give out exp all the time then the character will level too fast.

as for loot, I go with the realistic approach. These hobos talk about retirement and such and I'm sure they are getting paid. They will have some treasure. When all else failed, you can always gather up their weapons and armor and sell them for scraps or something :)

Belkar may not get a really cool shiney new items, but money he will surely get :)

[Dervag]

Why wouldn't he get any xp? I don't get it...His opponents are individually far, far weaker than he is.

Hobgoblins are a CR (Challenge Rating) 1 encounter. Belkar is waay above 1st level. You get awarded XP for defeating encounters with CR roughly equal to your own. Technically, you don't get XP for defeating enemies way weaker than yourself. For instance, in strip #124, Belkar got no experience for stabbing a mouse.


I think he should get some XP for that though... It's just so - him - and besides, as we can see that many hobgoblins were a bit of a challenge.Yes. Yes he should.


Xp or not that was one of the greatest fighting scenes i've seen in a comic, I mean WOW!Yes. Yes it was.


Depends on how many waits for a transplant.Well, after a battle like this, there will probably be a lot of hobgoblins in need of a kidney transplant, so it looks like Belkar just found a money machine.


5) The expression "God of War" is older than the entire Sony Corporation, let alone a video game franchise.Or, for that matter, the entire legal concept of joint stock corporations.


Sorry to use blunt damage type on a low-level equine creature type.It's OK, the thing obviously had the Zombie template.


If I have to suffer that one, so do all of you now...Nope, sorry, can't. My imagination blew several important fuses within the first fifteen words, so I read the reast without any imagination whatsoever. A fact for which I am profoundly grateful.


Either way, it's still a relatively well known line. I learned it in history class over 4 years ago. People have been learning it in history classes pretty much ever since the battle happened, come to think of it.

That bit about arrows blotting out the sun is practically embedded in Western culture.

[Daedrous Avari]

Second comic of the double deserves shirtdom.

[Lady Hawke]

I think he should. Technically, enough low CR creatures can get together into one high CR encounter. I'm pretty sure that many hobgoblins qualifies, plus the ones who were firing on him.

This should SO be true! Puh-leze!

Of course, if he hears he gets none, and then throws a hissy, that would be role-playing XP, right?

*Lady Hawke drops a feathery opinion upon the forum*

[Faramir]

If you remember the prophecy, Belkar hasn't caused the death of (I think this is accurate) Roy, V, Miko, or Miko's horse, yet, so until he gets that kill, he's not dying anytime soon...



Probably, but

a few possibilities :

1. The Eye of Fear and Flame is so frightened by what Belkar did that he runs off to fight V instead and kills him.,
2. Xykon gets bored with Roy and decides to fight someone who won't drone on and one about irrelevant dead mages. He teleports with his dragon over to fight Belkar instead leaving Roy to fall to his death.
3. Belkar gets killed and makes a deal with some demons so he can raid heaven and kill Miko's horse.

[Tobimaro]

Now this is a fight scene. :smallsmile:

:belkar: "I'm too sexy for this fight!" :smallwink:

[Payne]

If my GM had me fight 128 goblins, roll umpteenth # of dice, spend 22 rounds and countless hours resolving a fight, made my PC fear for his life in an encounter that genuinely posed a threat to my PC's life... and given me the "Awww, sorry no XP for low CR encounters"

I would punch him in the nads! :annoyed:



Edit ... Twice

[WoDHells]

Wallpapered.

[Fabio_MP]

lovely dnd epic!

[Professor Tanhauser]

Still, even though he gets no xp, Belkar should be 5500 gp richer.

Also, I believe Belkar now takes the record for single character with the most damage marks on him at once. Previous record was held by Roy in strip #200/#201.

yeah, but Elan is still the one character to have multiple swords sticking out of him, and to hold up an internal organ.

[Professor Tanhauser]

Acid? acid is too weak to get that image out of my mind... any advice on the matter...?

For those times when I've rolled a critical success on "Craft disturbing image" and acid isn't enough to get the result out of your mind, there's ZARDOZ!

[kerberos]

That isn't a 300 reference. Arrows blotting out the sun is a reference to the battle the film 300 was based on. I think that comic came out slightly before the film did any way.
And how many people do you think would be familiar with a battle between 5000 Greeks and a horde of Persians if no one had made a comic and movie about it? The fact that the comment is historical or at least made up a couple of millennia ago doesn't change the fact that it was a 300 reference.

[Ebaine Vulkarn]

Great strip. Gotta love the Quest for Glory II reference.

[Closet_Skeleton]

If Belkar's wholesale slaughter and subsequent cries of adulation demoralise the army then he'd get XP for Victory points according to Heroes of Battle. Otherwise he's just wasted his time.

[spectralphoenix]

Spectral Phoenix says: "Besides which, the scale tends to break down at the extremes - 128 hobgoblins may be an EL 13 encounter, but look at the resources expended - Belkar is going to lose about 44 hit points, or the equivalent of a pair of CSW's. It's hardly an even fight."

But I have to throw in a word of caution here, too. Take a first level fighter dealing with two orcs. He has about 11 HP (assuming a Con bonus) and the orcs some 5 or so. He wins the fight, but he's down to 3 HP. About the same as 1 Cure Light Wounds spell. It was hardly an even fight? It was. You have to live and be attended to to benefit from the CLW. One more hit and he'd be bleeding to death, unconscious. Assuming he didn't simultaneously somehow kill the orc, it's doubtful anyone will get a chance to stabilise him.

In any case, this line of thinking from above ('even fight') leads inexorably to near-death experiences for players who want to get ANY XP. If Belkar is on anything from under half (by the best calculations) to about 15%ish (by the worst) of his HPs and yet STILL doesn't get ANY XPs, I just can't fathom the logic. Give him half if you want, but none?

That, I think, is Rich's whole point about the XP system in the game here:

Belkar is heroic, Belkar risks his life, Belkar is successful - Belkar gets nothing.

Is funny! Oh I agree the comic is quite funny - my point was about the system in general.

A single 13th level character against an EL 13 encounter (128 hobgoblins) should be in a lot of trouble - it's an even fight. Note that this is similar to (and would provide the same experience as, in most cases) a normal four-person party of 13th level characters fighting a CR 17 opponent. In other words, this encounter should have been far harder than normal "status quo" encounters. But even though Belkar is probably in the worst position for it (a relatively low-hp melee type with no spellcasting) he can still mop up an encounter group theoretically as powerful as he is with no significant chance of dying. Likewise, your 1st level fighter is getting four times the experience he would from a status quo encounter by going in alone instead of with a party. Fights of this magnitude should be pretty rare and have a high risk of TPK, but Belkar just waded through it. That's why the system works the way it does.

I laughed at the comic, and I'd give Belkar an ad hoc XP award in my game, but there is a reason the system works the way it does.

[Freelance Henchman]

And how many people do you think would be familiar with a battle between 5000 Greeks and a horde of Persians if no one had made a comic and movie about it? The fact that the comment is historical or at least made up a couple of millennia ago doesn't change the fact that it was a 300 reference.

I think The Giant said in the thread for that strip he has neither seen the movie nor read the comic and in fact doesnt like Frank Miller's work. Unless he changed his mind I'm guessing this strip isnt a 300-the movie reference as well.

[Crispy SpThief]

A happy halfling is a halfling allowed to commit wholesale slaughter on hapless hobgoblins. great to finally see Belkar do what he does best once again. :smallamused:

Edit: here's a fun bit of alliteration.

A Healthy Halfling Happily Hacked Hapless Hobgoblins Heartfully.

[Caractacus]

Belkar's reff to his being "Sexy" made me wonder if he could ever make love like he makes war.

As a result, I suffered an imediate image of an unclothed belkar, adorned with scratches and bite marks, standig atop a pile of naked, exhausted, unconscious women screaming "I am a shoeless warrior god of sex!"

If I have to suffer that one, so do all of you now...


Tilian! To the " Belkar's Romantic Intrest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34127) "
thread at once - there's work to do! :smallcool:

[Raimun]

I was ready to quit when I saw the comic. But then I read this reply and a sense of duty called me to action!

I counted 63!

If they were outnumbered 3 to 1 then . . .



Dude, just give up. You might have counted 63 hobbos but do you really think the pile belkar is standing on is "2D". There are X number of hobbos behind every hobbo!

Also, I think even if you were able to count losses to both sides, it wouldn't matter. Not only is that sort of knowledge extremely and utterly trivial but the battle is propably going at "the speed of the plot".

[theotherone]

but considering Belkar killed at least 100 hobs, which is 100 CR1/2 monsters, making a total CR of 50. he should gain a level!

[Caledonian]

Great strip. Gotta love the Quest for Glory II reference.

Now THAT is an obscure reference. Awesome!

[MReav]

Now THAT is an obscure reference. Awesome!

I don't think it was one. If it were, we'd see mounts, him wiping the sweat off his brow, and commenting how victory smells like... victory.

How sad is it that I know this?

[kerberos]

I think The Giant said in the thread for that strip he has neither seen the movie nor read the comic and in fact doesnt like Frank Miller's work. Unless he changed his mind I'm guessing this strip isnt a 300-the movie reference as well.
He just coincidentally chooses to make a reference to an obscure 2500 year old battle at the exact time a non-obscure movie about it was released? I don't buy that. On the other hand that particular remark was IIRC in the trailer, so Rick doesn't have to have seen the movie.

[Hushdawg]

If my GM had me fight 128 goblins, roll umpteenth # of dice, spend 22 rounds and countless hours resolving a fight, made my PC fear for his life in an encounter that genuinely posed a threat to my PC's life... and given me the "Awww, sorry no XP for low CR encounters"

I would punch him in the nads! :annoyed:

Edit ... Twice

Actually when my level 18 Paladin was asked to cleanse a town of an army of Kobolds I recruited five knights and went to it.

All told there were over 600 Kobolds swarming the village and we either killed or defeated all of them.

I did not, however have to roll for each individual Kobold.

Because I could literally hit the AC with a 2 and kill each one with minimum damage the DM opted for a fistful of D20s (I think it was 10) and since NONE of them came up with a 1 he decided that I never missed and then he used a rule of averages to determine that one out of 15 would hit me and then applied average damage.

The whole battle took about 10 minutes to calculate and I received XP for the encounter, but not for each Kobold.

This is the same situation that Belkar is facing, he will receive XP for participating actively in the war; but not for each hobbo killed.

[Hushdawg]

And how many people do you think would be familiar with a battle between 5000 Greeks and a horde of Persians if no one had made a comic and movie about it? The fact that the comment is historical or at least made up a couple of millennia ago doesn't change the fact that it was a 300 reference.

How about the fact that the line appeared in the movie The 300 Spartans which was released in 1962 and is what inspired Frank Miller to create the graphic novel 300 that the new film 300 is based on?

Yes, 300 is a movie, based on a graphic novel which is inspired by a movie which is based on the real battle of Thermopylae.

Also, the battle was outlined in my history book from high school which was published in the early 1980s.

So give credit to Frank Miller for having a brilliant ability to tell a story and create a lot of emotion with his art. However he does NOT deserve credit for making Thermopylae remembered. Any idiot with a library card could read about it before Frank Miller was even a twinkle in his daddy's eye.