How to increase KNOWN spells as a sorcerer?

[SangoProduction]

If I understand the rules correctly, there's no way to increase the known spells of a sorcerer expect by simply gaining spell casting levels. I've also not found any feats, or class features that granted known spells for sorcerers (except by increasing it's spell casting level). Are there ways to gain more known spells?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Sandshaper (Sand) adds a bunch of spells known. There's a few other classes that add (mostly specific) spells.
There's also items. Runestaves (MIC) let you sacrifice a slot to cast a spell on the staff. There's also the Drake Helm (Explorers Handbook), but it's rather expensive.

[iDesu]

There are also bloodline feats in the dragon compendium and mother cyst from Libris Mortis.

[dysprosium]

Linkity link for linking (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2777.0)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ancestral Relic Runestaff (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4), make it an Elvencraft Composite Longbow in RotW so it's both a quarterstaff and a longbow, get masterwork three times but put three wand chambers in it.

[dascarletm]

Play pathfinder and be a human. :smallbiggrin:

[SangoProduction]

Very incredibly useful...I can't believe I missed all of those....

[Deadline]

Knowstones are another handy item for this.

[SangoProduction]

Play pathfinder and be a human. :smallbiggrin:

You don't know how much I've been searching for people who play Pathfinder on weekends, lol. No one seems to want to do it :(

[geekintheground]

the Extra Spell feat from Complete Arcane is explicitly for this, but youre spending a feat for a single spell while most of the other options here grant multiple

[nedz]

Linkity link for linking (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2777.0)

This list is geared towards fixed list casters, which does not include Sorcerers.

Note: there is a difference between adding spells to your class list and adding spells known.
E.g. According to CDiv: adding a domain to a Sorcerer gets you the granted power, and adds the domain spells to your class list. Arcane Disciple only does the latter.

There are also quite a few feats/templates/races which add SLAs — typically 1/day or maybe 3/day. Again not quite the same as adding spells known, but still useful.

[Diarmuid]

There are also some elemental bloodline feats somewhere that add to a sorc's list.

[pwcsponson]

Dragon Magazine 333 pg 93 has an item called the Knowstone. It's a spell scribed on a stone tab and a spontaneous caster who simply has it in his possession counts as knowing the spell.

[Tvtyrant]

It is fairly easy to get infinite feats, so you could dark chaos shuffle an otyugh hole over and over into Extra Spell feats until you know all of the spells, selling walls of salt to pay for the process. I don't suggest this as it tears the game apart, but it isn't very hard to do.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The various bloodline feats in Dragon Compendium each give you a list of nine new spells known, one of each spell level, but each one has a specific category/descriptor of spells that you cannot cast. For example, having the Water bloodline prohibits you from casting [fire] spells.

[sideswipe]

It is fairly easy to get infinite feats, so you could dark chaos shuffle an otyugh hole over and over into Extra Spell feats until you know all of the spells, selling walls of salt to pay for the process. I don't suggest this as it tears the game apart, but it isn't very hard to do.

i would happily let someone do this with their whole wealth by level (not the salt bit but the chaos shuffle and otyugh hole).

[Tvtyrant]

i would happily let someone do this with their whole wealth by level (not the salt bit but the chaos shuffle and otyugh hole).

It would only add 253 spells (with level 20 WBL) that way, so not as bad considering there are like 5,000 arcane spells in D&D.

[sideswipe]

It would only add 253 spells (with level 20 WBL) that way, so not as bad considering there are like 5,000 arcane spells in D&D.

253 (about 300 known in total) is enough for you to have all the useful spells in the game. or at least spells versatile enough for everything.

though the rags you walk in will be pretty dirty......

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It would only add 253 spells (with level 20 WBL) that way, so not as bad considering there are like 5,000 arcane spells in D&D.

The Dark Chaos Shuffle costs 500 xp each time it's used, so you're either spending so much xp that you're left with an 11th level character in a 20th level party, or you pay NPC spellcasting fees for those and can only get 96 feats with 20th level WBL.

[Tvtyrant]

The Dark Chaos Shuffle costs 500 xp each time it's used, so you're either spending so much xp that you're left with an 11th level character in a 20th level party, or you pay NPC spellcasting fees for those and can only get 96 feats with 20th level WBL.

It would probably be easier to make a dcs Grisgol and have it cast it for me.

[SinsI]

The Dark Chaos Shuffle costs 500 xp each time it's used, so you're either spending so much xp that you're left with an 11th level character in a 20th level party, or you pay NPC spellcasting fees for those and can only get 96 feats with 20th level WBL.

That's not true. If you are one level behind, you get about 1/3 more XP per encounter.
Dark Chaos Shuffle for Sorcerer is available from lvl 16, so by staying 1 level behind you'll be able to allocate ~30k XP towards DCS while still getting lvl 19 at the same time the party becomes lvl 20 - enough for 60 extra feats.

[dascarletm]

That's not true. If you are one level behind, you get about 1/3 more XP per encounter.
Dark Chaos Shuffle for Sorcerer is available from lvl 16, so by staying 1 level behind you'll be able to allocate ~30k XP towards DCS while still getting lvl 19 at the same time the party becomes lvl 20 - enough for 60 extra feats.

Sorcerer: "Guys, so I need to head back to the hole and spend some time in there... I'll need to do it two times with the amount of XP we got from this fight. You won't mind waiting around for me right? Guys? Hey where are you going?"
Rest of Party: :smallannoyed:
...
[And so the adventurers traveled onward leaving the sorcerer behind to sit in garbage as they slew the dragon.]

[Tvtyrant]

Sorcerer: "Guys, so I need to head back to the hole and spend some time in there... I'll need to do it two times with the amount of XP we got from this fight. You won't mind waiting around for me right? Guys? Hey where are you going?"
Rest of Party: :smallannoyed:
...
[And so the adventurers traveled onward leaving the sorcerer behind to sit in garbage as they slew the dragon.] Doesn't this argument invalidate item crafting as well? or shopping for that matter...

[SinsI]

Sorcerer: "Guys, so I need to head back to the hole and spend some time in there... I'll need to do it two times with the amount of XP we got from this fight. You won't mind waiting around for me right? Guys? Hey where are you going?"
Rest of Party: :smallannoyed:
...
[And so the adventurers traveled onward leaving the sorcerer behind to sit in garbage as they slew the dragon.]

Get your temporary feat to shuffle via Heroics; it is much better than some stinky dark hole.

[Vizzerdrix]

Cerebrosis feat from dragon Mag is like Mother Cyst but with Far Realm flavor.

Rune Staves and knowstones have been mentioned, but I'd like to point out the Drake Helm from Eberron as well. It can get you up to 4 spells from any list.


And lastly, my favorite is Mage of the Arcane Order Prc from Complete Arcane. Feat heavy to enter, but the spell pool gets you everything on the Wiz/Sorc list with no lost caster levels.

[Crake]

Get your temporary feat to shuffle via Heroics; it is much better than some stinky dark hole.

I think most people are too lactose intolerant for something like that

As a side note, if you make one of your 9th level spells ice assassin, then you could make a dweomerkeeper ice assassin that could cast DCFS as a supernatural ability with no xp cost. Sure, you'd be limited to 2 shuffles a day (double if you add on some metamagic reduction and use repeat spell or the like), but that should be more than enough really. I mean, the otyugh hole takes a week anyway, right? Though it'd be worth noting that the hole does say that if it ever becomes trivial or commonplace to be used, that it loses all it's power, so you probably aren't going to be able to spam it. I'm sure there are other options out there for spamming though.

[dascarletm]

Doesn't this argument invalidate item crafting as well? or shopping for that matter...
This argument doesn't touch on those subjects, to take it there would require applying a slippery slope. However let's look at why both of those examples you gave are fundamentally different.

For item crafting, depending on how the campaign is set up, spending 8 hours every day may be fine. For example if the group is based out of a stronghold of sorts. Also, if you are crafting for other members as well, the wait may be well-received. Dedicated Wights also help alleviate this.

Shopping is accomplished by all party members, and takes far less time. In narrative time it probably takes an hour or two.

From what I recall of THE HOLE it required over 24hours uninterrupted, and was a specific place you would need to travel to. The time commitment, and the fact that pulling off the original plan required scheduled regular visits, is what makes it non-campaign friendly. Item crafting can cause a similar problem, but shopping? That's ludicrous.

Using heroics however.... I'd wear a helmet to protect me from the incoming DMG. :smalltongue:

[SinsI]

No matter how cheese intolerant the DM, that's 3 spells known for a Sorcerer, two 8th level slots, one 2nd level slot and 500 XP for one extra feat - such investment should be rewarded.

[sleepyphoenixx]

No matter how cheese intolerant the DM, that's 3 spells known for a Sorcerer, two 8th level slots, one 2nd level slot and 500 XP for one extra feat - such investment should be rewarded.

With infinite feats? I don't think so. I can see allowing him to switch out feats that can't normally be changed, or letting him switch the feat from Heroics to a non-fighter one (that he still loses when the duration ends. 500 XP for a non-limited feat for the duration).
But allowing him to repeat the Otyugh Hole or something similar and get infinite feats by shuffling it out each time? No.

[SinsI]

It is only infinite feats if your campaign lasts infinite time and goes to infinite level.
Sorcerer gets two 8th level spells known at lvl 17, and he has to give up _all of them_ for that combo.
At 3 days per level, he'll be able to get only a few extra feats. And, at least till lvl 18 (when Extra spells gives 1 8th level known), those feats are going to be worse than his investment - two 8th level spells known. That besides 500 XP he has to pay for each.
I'd say that for Sorcerer, this combo is actually valid.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It is only infinite feats if your campaign lasts infinite time and goes to infinite level.
Sorcerer gets two 8th level spells known at lvl 17, and he has to give up _all of them_ for that combo.
At 3 days per level, he'll be able to get only a few extra feats. And, at least till lvl 18 (when Extra spells gives 1 8th level known), those feats are going to be worse than his investment - two 8th level spells known. That besides 500 XP he has to pay for each.
I'd say that for Sorcerer, this combo is actually valid.

That assumes he's actually stupid enough to waste his feats on Extra Spell. Instead of more metamagic. Or all the other feats that are actually worth taking. There's cheaper options to get more spells.
Further, why would you waste your spells known on this? Get them on a Runestaff (which is rather cheap, even for 8th level spells).

Also you can hardly allow this for the Sorcerer and then tell everyone else no. Maybe there's a cleric in the party who'd like a few extra options for DMM and a crapload of Extra Turning feats?
If you're going to allow chaos shuffling be consistent about the limits. That's just basic DM sense. And "there are no limits" is a really bad idea in 99% of campaigns.

[SinsI]

That assumes he's actually stupid enough to waste his feats on Extra Spell. Instead of more metamagic. Or all the other feats that are actually worth taking. There's cheaper options to get more spells.
Further, why would you waste your spells known on this? Get them on a Runestaff (which is rather cheap, even for 8th level spells).
Custom magic items that are not present in any books are automatically DM territory. I'd only such Runestaves if your Sorcerer can craft them himself (which would require him to know those spells :) ).


Also you can hardly allow this for the Sorcerer and then tell everyone else no. Maybe there's a cleric in the party who'd like a few extra options for DMM and a crapload of Extra Turning feats?
If you're going to allow chaos shuffling be consistent about the limits. That's just basic DM sense. And "there are no limits" is a really bad idea in 99% of campaigns.
Clerics can get their own bonus feats via Miracle, though it requires 10 times more XP per feat.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Custom magic items that are not present in any books are automatically DM territory. I'd only such Runestaves if your Sorcerer can craft them himself (which would require him to know those spells :) ).


Clerics can get their own bonus feats via Miracle, though it requires 10 times more XP per feat.

So the Sorcerer crafts the runestaff at 16. Then he gets rid of the spells at 18 & 20, because sorcerers can do that. He can probably spare a feat or two on the 8th level spells he'd have learned instead during those levels and shuffle them out again later, or just use metamagic & lower level spells (like a mailman for example). Still not seeing how that justifies practically limitless feats.

Also Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos are on the cleric list. And Miracle doesn't cost 5000 XP for the spell emulation function.

[sideswipe]

Get your temporary feat to shuffle via Heroics; it is much better than some stinky dark hole.

you could always use the bard temporary HD trick to give you a feat each level! use it as you level and you will gain a feat as you have enough HD to reach the next feat level and then get rid of them to drop you below and repeat! ...

i dont remember casting animate object on that DMG....