Librarian Feats

[nedz]

I'm creating an NPC Librarian — Human level 1 Expert (DMG) — and I'm stuck as to what feats might be appropriate ?

Ed: Sources: Any really, though I would prefer to avoid Dragon Magazine.

[Know(Nothing)]

I'm stuck for feats at the moment, but an eternal wand of Amanuensis comes to mind.

[Seclora]

I'm creating an NPC Librarian — Human level 1 Expert (DMG) — and I'm stuck as to what feats might be appropriate ?

Ed: Sources: Any really, though I would prefer to avoid Dragon Magazine.

Knowledge Devotion?
Skill Focus(Knowledge: that thing the PCs need to know about) also not a terrible choice. A decent number of those +2/+2 type feats are actually pretty decent for low level NPCs, especially if skills are their only real purpose. Plus, it adds realism to the NPCs, who are almost certainly not Homicidal Vagrants sporting Arcane Thesis and Shock Trooper.

If, on the other hand, this NPC is expected to adventure, like, ever, consider the archivist class instead. All Knowledge skills and knowledge based class abilities, on top of potent Divine casting. Cloistered Cleric is also a very good choice(for many, many reasons and purposes).

[Deadline]

Knowledge Devotion?
Skill Focus(Knowledge: that thing the PCs need to know about) also not a terrible choice. A decent number of those +2/+2 type feats are actually pretty decent for low level NPCs, especially if skills are their only real purpose. Plus, it adds realism to the NPCs, who are almost certainly not Homicidal Vagrants sporting Arcane Thesis and Shock Trooper.

Unfortunately Knowledge Devotion requires 5 ranks in a knowledge skill, something you can't get at 1st level.

Some other options might include:
Open Minded (5 extra skill points)
Jack of All Trades
Communicator
Insightful
Spell Hand

[Troacctid]

Skill Focus (Profession: Librarian).

It's not exciting for most PCs, but remember that your librarian is going to spend most of their time doing nothing but making Profession (Librarian) checks all day long. +3 on all of those rolls is going to matter.

There's also the Research feat from Eberron, which is designed for library-folk, and the Multilingual feat from Lost Empires of Faerun, which would allow them to read books in more languages and help them with Decipher Script checks (which librarians probably make all the time, unlike adventurers).

[Curmudgeon]

10 selectable class skills is not nearly enough. Add Education (Eberron Campaign Setting, but a [General] feat rather than Eberron-specific) to make all Knowledges class skills.

[Rubik]

Ook.

[Translation] How about Hidden Talent: Far Hand? Useful for anyone pulling stuff off of high shelves. Also, Psicrystal Affinity or Obtain Familiar, if the librarian is a psion or wizard, since both can have climb and/or fly speeds.

[Seclora]

Ook. EEEEEEEEEEK!

I got it!





I get that reference.

[Thurbane]

Master of Knowledge (HoH): +1 to all Knowledge Skills

[Amphetryon]

Ook.

[Translation] How about Hidden Talent: Far Hand? Useful for anyone pulling stuff off of high shelves. Also, Psicrystal Affinity or Obtain Familiar, if the librarian is a psion or wizard, since both can have climb and/or fly speeds.

Human, not Hadozee. . . but my first thought, too.

[Sith_Happens]

Ook.

[Translation] How about Hidden Talent: Far Hand? Useful for anyone pulling stuff off of high shelves. Also, Psicrystal Affinity or Obtain Familiar, if the librarian is a psion or wizard, since both can have climb and/or fly speeds.

Magical Training is strictly better if nedz is willing to waive regional requirements. Three cantrips per day and three known with the ability to learn more.

[Troacctid]

It's called a ladder, guys. They cost 5 cp. :smallcool:

[Seclora]

It's called a ladder, guys. They cost 5 cp. :smallcool:

I thought those only existed to be taken apart and sold as quarterstaves? :smalltongue:

[Rubik]

I thought those only existed to be taken apart and sold as quarterstaves 5' poles? :smalltongue:Quarterstaves cost 0 gp.

[Seclora]

Quarterstaves cost 0 gp.

Not if you cast Nystul's Magic Aura on them first they don't.

[nedz]

Spell Hand
Spell Hand is good

Skill Focus (Profession: Librarian).

It's not exciting for most PCs, but remember that your librarian is going to spend most of their time doing nothing but making Profession (Librarian) checks all day long. +3 on all of those rolls is going to matter.

There's also the Research feat from Eberron, which is designed for library-folk, and the Multilingual feat from Lost Empires of Faerun, which would allow them to read books in more languages and help them with Decipher Script checks (which librarians probably make all the time, unlike adventurers).
These are probably what I am looking for.

10 selectable class skills is not nearly enough. Add Education (Eberron Campaign Setting, but a [General] feat rather than Eberron-specific) to make all Knowledges class skills.
I have the following pencilled in
Decipher Script, Forgery, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Profession (Librarian), Search.
Yes there are more knowledge skills, but then there are more librarians.

I got it!
I get that reference.
Have a banana

Magical Training is strictly better if nedz is willing to waive regional requirements. Three cantrips per day and three known with the ability to learn more.
Tenser's Floating Disk would be useful for moving piles of books around though — for those moments when a trolley just won't do :smallbiggrin:

[Troacctid]

I don't think 1/day abilities are what a librarian is looking for. They're going to need to move more than one book per day if they want to keep their job.

[nedz]

Well even 3/day is a bit limiting.

I think I'm going to go for Research and Skill Focus Profession (Librarian).

If he survives the adventure then he will probably level :smallbiggrin:

[Troacctid]

I'd also pick Speak Language as one of his class skills, probably instead of Forgery or Search. Identifying forgeries isn't something that will often be called for (not as often as dealing with foreign-language books, anyway), and a librarian shouldn't need to search for books in his own library--he can use Profession (Librarian) for that.

[SowZ]

Favored in Guild: Scholastic, (+2 Knowledge, may take 20 on a knowledge skill once/level.) Primary Contact, (+1 rank in skill that can exceed cap, gain a high ranking friend in your organization.) Knowledge Devotion. Skill Focus: Knowledge.

You'll need two flaws but that should be easy.

[nedz]

Favored in Guild: Scholastic, (+2 Knowledge, may take 20 on a knowledge skill once/level.) Primary Contact, (+1 rank in skill that can exceed cap, gain a high ranking friend in your organization.) Knowledge Devotion. Skill Focus: Knowledge.

You'll need two flaws but that should be easy.

Favored in Guild is good, but 1/level is not so useful for an NPC who doesn't usually adventure.

The real problem with this, and your Skill Focus: Knowledge idea, is that Knowledge is not one skill.

Knowledge (Int; Trained Only)

Like the Craft and Profession skills, Knowledge actually encompasses a number of unrelated skills. Knowledge represents a study of some body of lore, possibly an academic or even scientific discipline.
These would be much better for an academic who specialises in one branch of Knowledge.

[Rubik]

Mercantile Background so you can use library funds to buy rare books 1/month at a bargain price?

Could come in handy while you're adventuring, too.

[Jay R]

The real problem with this, and your Skill Focus: Knowledge idea, is that Knowledge is not one skill.

These would be much better for an academic who specialises in one branch of Knowledge.

Library Science is one branch of knowledge. It involves cataloging and research skills. It doesn't give the librarian the knowledge in all the books in the library, but it does give the ability to find the one book with the knowledge you need. [It might be easier to think of it as the low-tech version of particularly good skill with Google.]

[SowZ]

Favored in Guild is good, but 1/level is not so useful for an NPC who doesn't usually adventure.

The real problem with this, and your Skill Focus: Knowledge idea, is that Knowledge is not one skill.

These would be much better for an academic who specialises in one branch of Knowledge.

Depending on if the NPC needs to do one major, plot advancing thing, it can be pretty useful. At any rate, Favored in Guild is mostly just a way for you to get Knowledge Devotion at level one.

[Telonius]

Are you set on human? Nothing says "Shhhh!" like a Whisper Gnome.

[ShurikVch]

Breadth of Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/spelltouchedFeats.htm#breadthofKnowledge)
Well Read - regional Greyhawk feat from Dr#315
Galifaran Scholar (PGE)

[nedz]

Library Science is one branch of knowledge. It involves cataloging and research skills. It doesn't give the librarian the knowledge in all the books in the library, but it does give the ability to find the one book with the knowledge you need. [It might be easier to think of it as the low-tech version of particularly good skill with Google.]
Unfortunately Library Science is not a skill in 3.5

Are you set on human? Nothing says "Shhhh!" like a Whisper Gnome.
Nice, but it ought to be human — because plot

Breadth of Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/spelltouchedFeats.htm#breadthofKnowledge)
Well Read - regional Greyhawk feat from Dr#315
Galifaran Scholar (PGE)
Breadth of Knowledge is nice, but a level 1 NPC is unlikely to qualify.
Well Read is just another version of Educated, which is a nice feat I've already rejected.
This is not Ebberon so Galifaran Scholar is not too much use.

[ShurikVch]

How about the Master of Knowledge (HoH)?

[Bayar]

Craft (Bookbinding) to repair old tomes that have their covers getting unbound.

Diligent feat to be able to appraise books brought in and to translate them.

Add some skill points into Forgery to detect forged manuscripts.

Maybe a Hand of the Mage for Mage hand at will ? 900 gold for a level 1 NPC might sound a lot, but depending on how large and stocked a library you have, it might come with the job.

[Th3N3xtGuy]

Make him a Loremaster prestige class with no actual base class

[Flickerdart]

10 selectable class skills is not nearly enough. Add Education (Eberron Campaign Setting, but a [General] feat rather than Eberron-specific) to make all Knowledges class skills.
The Expert only gets 6+INT skill points. As a Human, the librarian would need a prodigious 16 Intelligence (which even Elite NPCs can only dream of before 4th level) to max 10 skills. It doesn't seem like spending feats to get more skills is productive, since the librarian would then need to take yet more feats in order to get the skill points to fill those skills up.

Of course, the librarian can dilute her skill ranks, but one who knows much about fewer things is more valuable than one that knows little about many.

[Zaq]

Of course, the librarian can dilute her skill ranks, but one who knows much about fewer things is more valuable than one that knows little about many.

From the perspective of a PC, I agree with you. From the perspective of an NPC, I'm not so sure. Remember that Knowledge checks are trained-only, so most commoners can't succeed on anything beyond a DC 10. For that, they need to consult the local expert—this fellow. He's still a level 1 NPC, so no one is expecting him to immediately know all kinds of really esoteric stuff, but he IS the local librarian, so he's expected to know about a pretty broad variety of things. He'll probably need to research and look up the answers to a lot of things (he's a level 1 librarian, not a level 15 celestial guru or arch-sage), but the more Knowledges he's able to do the work on, the better.

He's probably better off being the guy who can look up the answer to most varieties of question that a commoner would encounter rather than being the guy who knows everything about dragons and angels and that's it.

[Flickerdart]

From the perspective of a PC, I agree with you. From the perspective of an NPC, I'm not so sure. Remember that Knowledge checks are trained-only, so most commoners can't succeed on anything beyond a DC 10. For that, they need to consult the local expert—this fellow. He's still a level 1 NPC, so no one is expecting him to immediately know all kinds of really esoteric stuff, but he IS the local librarian, so he's expected to know about a pretty broad variety of things. He'll probably need to research and look up the answers to a lot of things (he's a level 1 librarian, not a level 15 celestial guru or arch-sage), but the more Knowledges he's able to do the work on, the better.

He's probably better off being the guy who can look up the answer to most varieties of question that a commoner would encounter rather than being the guy who knows everything about dragons and angels and that's it.
There are 11 Knowledges (including Psionics) so an Expert can pick nine and then Profession (Librarian) and put ranks in all of them. Maybe she can take 2 points out of two of these to throw 1 CC rank into the remaining two knowledges. There, all knowledges covered without needing to waste the feat.

Or she can take Education, put the same ranks in the same knowledges, and...have a bunch of other skills with 1 or no ranks? Doesn't seem that useful to me at all.

[Troacctid]

You know what would be useful? Autohypnosis. Who needs knowledge checks when you've memorized the entire library?

...Okay, that would take a long time, but still. Very relevant ability to have. Memorizing the card catalog alone would be invaluable.

[The Vagabond]

The first thing that comes to mind is Research, from the Ebberon Campaign Setting, pg 59. It allows you to search through libraries, and gain bonuses by the size of the library. It's among the least useful feats in the game, but it's there.

[ben-zayb]

No Shape Soulmeld feat suggestions yet?

Mage Spectacles would be thematic and mechanically helpful, while Soulspark Familiar is a safe (not a fire risk) light source for dirt-poor NPC librarians and also doubles as a bodyguard.

[dextercorvia]

I like the Absent Minded trait for a +1 to all knowledge skills. If Illumian is close enough to human, they get up to +2 on Int Checks by picking the correct sigil.

I feel I should point out that if you can pick up a non-NPC level then Dragon Fire Adept makes a good choice. They get the Draconic Knowledge invocation for a +6 to all knowledge skills. Combined with the Jack of All Trades feat and you are quite knowledgeable, even without the skill points. The knowledge mantle (Ardent or Divine Mind) gives you the JoAT ability but only for knowledge skills.

*Edit: I forgot that Draconic Knowledge also let you treat them as trained.

[nedz]

Well two levels of Warlock for All Seeing Eyes and Otherworldly Whispers would also be good, but I don't expect he will take those either.

Absent-minded is good, and since it's a trait I might use that.

[Jay R]

Unfortunately Library Science is not a skill in 3.5

Of course it is, if the DM approves. You can take either Profession (Librarian) or Knowledge (Library Science).

[ShurikVch]

Feats from the Ravenloft book Heroes of Light:



Feat
Prerequisite
Benefit (Summary)


Knowledgeable
Int 13
Bonus in knowledge skills


Library
Literacy
Gain bonus to knowledge skills


Literacy
-
Read (if PC couldn't read) or Search bonus


University Education
Renaissance domain of origin
Better access to knowledge skills

[nedz]

Of course it is, if the DM approves. You can take either Profession (Librarian) or Knowledge (Library Science).

I am the DM, hence NPC, and I stand by my previous statement.:smallamused:

[Ruethgar]

Autohypnosis is a very nice skill for a librarian as it allows you to memorize all of the books. If you are using Stronghold Builders Guide that can give you a bonus to one or more knowledge skills depending on the library content. Magical Training for 3/day Prestidigitation would be very helpful, 1lb telekinesis isn't much, but you get it for 3/8 hours of your work schedule and can clean along the way to minimize dust. A Gnome can also get three more hours of Prestidigitation.

I would go something like this:
Human Expert 1
Skills: As you listed minus Forgery plus Autohypnosis, maybe even switch Search for Spellcraft if he is to learn Incantations.
Flaw: Methodical Magical Methods
Bonus: Magical Training
Flaw: Non-Combatant
Bonus: Research
First: Multilingual
Human: Open Minded

[Jay R]

I am the DM, hence NPC, and I stand by my previous statement.:smallamused:

Oh. Well, if you're the reason your character idea can't work, then we can't help you.

[nedz]

Oh. Well, if you're the reason your character idea can't work, then we can't help you.

Wait, what ? :smallconfused:

All I said was "Library Science is not a skill in 3.5" which is correct by RAW.

The ideas in this thread have been very useful, only a few of them won't fly.

[Flickerdart]

All I said was "Library Science is not a skill in 3.5" which is correct by RAW.
The RAW on Knowledge skills only calls the ones that are listed "typical fields of study" which leaves room for other options.

[Sith_Happens]

The RAW on Knowledge skills only calls the ones that are listed "typical fields of study" which leaves room for other options.

That still leaves the issue where I can't think of anything you'd roll Knowledge (Library Science) for that Profession (Librarian) doesn't already do.

[nedz]

OK, so I could use Knowledge (Library Science), but there are still problems with it.

We would have a skills overlap, well 3.5 has a few of those already, but it would add nothing over a skill I was already intending to apply.
No player has asked for me to create a new knowledge type, so I would need a solid justification, which I don't seem to have. I'm not adverse to house rules, but I like to be upfront about them.


Also, this adds nothing to the character I don't already have. It certainly doesn't break the character concept to not use this idea.

[Rubik]

OK, so I could use Knowledge (Library Science), but there are still problems with it.

We would have a skills overlap, well 3.5 has a few of those already, but it would add nothing over a skill I was already intending to apply.
No player has asked for me to create a new knowledge type, so I would need a solid justification, which I don't seem to have. I'm not adverse to house rules, but I like to be upfront about them.


Also, this adds nothing to the character I don't already have. It certainly doesn't break the character concept to not use this idea.On the bright side, there are many and varied creatures living in L-space which Knowledge (Library Science) can identify.

The thesaurus is a particularly notorious example.