Crown of Madness: Watered down version of Suggestion?

[xroads]

Aside from a cool sounding name and trappings (which is enough itself to get me to choose it :smallbiggrin:), what does Crown of Madness have that Suggestion doesn't? It sounds like Suggestion is a much more powerful spell, but available at the same level.

[HoarsHalberd]

Aside from a cool sounding name and trappings (which is enough itself to get me to choose it :smallbiggrin:), what does Crown of Madness have that Suggestion doesn't? It sounds like Suggestion is a much more powerful spell, but available at the same level.

Attacking your friends because some guy made a suggestion isn't a "reasonable course of action" for most DMs. You might get away with suggesting one guy attack another. "Hey, he slept with your wife, get him." But attacking anyone for a minute, nope. Now suggestion is a better spell to me, but crown of madness is much better in combat.

[xroads]

Attacking your friends because some guy made a suggestion isn't a "reasonable course of action" for most DMs. You might get away with suggesting one guy attack another. "Hey, he slept with your wife, get him." But attacking anyone for a minute, nope. Now suggestion is a better spell to me, but crown of madness is much better in combat.

But in that case, couldn't a DM argue any course of action the NPC wasn't planning on as not being reasonable?

For instance, using the books example...

Bard: Suggestion, donate your warhorse to the first beggar you see.

Knight: That's my loyal steed? Why would I do that? That's unreasonable.

[Forum Explorer]

But in that case, couldn't a DM argue any course of action the NPC wasn't planning on as not being reasonable?

For instance, using the books example...

Bard: Suggestion, donate your warhorse to the first beggar you see.

Knight: That's my loyal steed? Why would I do that? That's unreasonable.

To be honest I think that the book gave a really bad example.

A better one is simply, 'These aren't the droids you're looking for.' for seeing mass suggestion used in the field.

Or for a combat example 'We are too strong for you. Run away!' or 'That raging barbarian is the biggest threat. You should focus on killing him first.' Or perhaps even 'Surrender and we will spare your lives!'

[Strill]

But in that case, couldn't a DM argue any course of action the NPC wasn't planning on as not being reasonable?

The way I adjudicate Suggestion, is that the target believes whatever you told them. If it's something like "Attack him instead, he's the bigger threat", then it'll probably work, but if you do "Attack him, he slept with your wife", the target may choose to just confront the target, not necessarily attack them.

[HoarsHalberd]

But in that case, couldn't a DM argue any course of action the NPC wasn't planning on as not being reasonable?

For instance, using the books example...

Bard: Suggestion, donate your warhorse to the first beggar you see.

Knight: That's my loyal steed? Why would I do that? That's unreasonable.

Hence why I said most DMs. A DM could argue any course of action is unreasonable, but a DM could at any point say: "Rocks fall everyone dies." What matters for suggestion is what a decent DM would do, and most DMs won't feel "Those people around you are doppelgangers, protect yourself" is a reasonable course of action for most NPCs. (Particularly low int/wis creatures that can understand a language, maybe.)

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Attacking your friends because some guy made a suggestion isn't a "reasonable course of action" for most DMs. You might get away with suggesting one guy attack another. "Hey, he slept with your wife, get him." But attacking anyone for a minute, nope. Now suggestion is a better spell to me, but crown of madness is much better in combat.

It should be, but since the target doesn't have to attack at range or anything, any smart subject will just walk away from the group. Really, just take Dissonant Whispers, because the only damage that's going to result from casting Crown will be from the Opportunity Attacks.

[HoarsHalberd]

It should be, but since the target doesn't have to attack at range or anything, any smart subject will just walk away from the group. Really, just take Dissonant Whispers, because the only damage that's going to result from casting Crown will be from the Opportunity Attacks.

That's only enemies who have intimate knowledge of how the spell works. You cast it on an orc or hobgoblin captain, or an ogre in a squad of ogres from 120 foot away and it should be a death sentence as they get attacked in panic.

[Flashy]

But in that case, couldn't a DM argue any course of action the NPC wasn't planning on as not being reasonable?

For instance, using the books example...

Bard: Suggestion, donate your warhorse to the first beggar you see.

Knight: That's my loyal steed? Why would I do that? That's unreasonable.

I've always interpreted that as an example of a possible effect (and an illustration of the fact that the effects can time out) rather than a way to phrase the requirement. You aren't commanding them, you're suggesting. There's a difference between "Donate your warhorse to the first beggar you see." and "The great knights of legend were charitable beyond measure. You should follow their example by giving your horse to the first beggar you see." I would allow the second, but probably not the first.


The way I adjudicate Suggestion, is that the target believes whatever you told them. If it's something like "Attack him instead, he's the bigger threat", then it'll probably work, but if you do "Attack him, he slept with your wife", the target may choose to just confront the target, not necessarily attack them.

This is also a solid way to handle it.

[xroads]

The way I adjudicate Suggestion, is that the target believes whatever you told them. If it's something like "Attack him instead, he's the bigger threat", then it'll probably work, but if you do "Attack him, he slept with your wife", the target may choose to just confront the target, not necessarily attack them.

I like this. This is definitely an interesting way of interpreting that spell.

I think I figured out one advantage that Crown of Madness has over Suggestion. It doesn't need your victim to understand your language. So it can be cast on a bear for example. Where as Suggestion could not.

[Person_Man]

The way I adjudicate Suggestion, is that the target believes whatever you told them. If it's something like "Attack him instead, he's the bigger threat", then it'll probably work, but if you do "Attack him, he slept with your wife", the target may choose to just confront the target, not necessarily attack them.

This is what I do as well. The target truly believes whatever you tell them in the moment, but they are free to do whatever they choose to do with the information you've given them.

[HoarsHalberd]

This is what I do as well. The target truly believes whatever you tell them in the moment, but they are free to do whatever they choose to do with the information you've given them.

I'd personally moderate it a bit more than true belief, true belief within the realms of plausibility. "I am an agent of your God, protect me!" Might work if you're a high level spell caster who is owning face and are the correct race, but if you're level 6 and saying that to a Kobold...

[SharkForce]

except that the canon example is not of someone believing what you say, it is of someone doing what you tell them to do.

still, i suppose we're making progress. instead of just declaring that everything is unreasonable, you all seem to at least be willing to let suggestion do something.

[Gwendol]

except that the canon example is not of someone believing what you say, it is of someone doing what you tell them to do.

still, i suppose we're making progress. instead of just declaring that everything is unreasonable, you all seem to at least be willing to let suggestion do something.

Well, in the spell description it is made clear it is crucial what to say:
The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable.

[SharkForce]

sure. but it also, in that very sentence, makes it clear that you can suggest a course of action, not just something for them to believe and act on however they wish. you can suggest "your home is in danger, you need to go protect it", and the response will be go to protect their home, not just to acknowledge that their home is in danger but they decide that there are plenty of other people to protect it and they don't really need to go home.

[Chadamantium]

except that the canon example is not of someone believing what you say, it is of someone doing what you tell them to do.

still, i suppose we're making progress. instead of just declaring that everything is unreasonable, you all seem to at least be willing to let suggestion do something.

I guess you could say "we're open to suggestions".

I rule that when suggestion is used, there has to be reason to it. Simple attack the guy next to you isn't enough. "You have reason to believe the man next to you is a double agent and now is the most opportune time to apprehend him." That may fly though he may still think that murderhobos still pose a bigger threat.

[ad_hoc]

I think a good test is to imagine the roles are reversed.

If an NPC successfully cast Suggestion on your character, would the suggestion upset you?

"Attack your allies" is not reasonable. These are the people who have saved your life time and time again. You are also talking to potentially dangerous strangers, you need your allies. And if you attack them they are likely to attack you back and you know how powerful they are.

In short:

Attacking your allies means you will probably die so it is not a reasonable course of action.

On CoM:

I think CoM would be great if it wasn't concentration. I would rather have a buff up that I know is going to work.

[Easy_Lee]

To add my two cents, I agree that the spell name seems to imply that it is not control spell so much as making the target believe a thing is true and that a given course of action would be appropriate. The target should later think, "it seemed like a good idea at the time, but now I don't remember why I did that."

So, some examples of how a suggestion might be used to force an action:

House Guard - "I should go for a walk right now. The master told me to watch the yard and not just the treasure room, didn't he? I think he did..."
Merchant - "This item is cursed. I'm really getting the best of that adventurer by selling him this item, even though he must think that the price is a steal. Hah! What an idiot."
Orc Chief - "She's a favored servant of Gruumsh? Better leave her alone and let her do as she pleases."

But I wouldn't think it would work to make someone do something completely out of the question. You're putting a "suggestion" into their mind and letting their reasoning do the rest.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

What if suggestion is cast on a die-hard Lawful stupid paladin and he's now convinced his "allies" are vicious deplorable murderers? Are his attempts to subdue them and give them the justice they deserve unreasonable?

The problem with basing any argument on what's "reasonable" either way is it's as wide open to personal judgement and interpretation as the ocean is deep.

[HoarsHalberd]

What if suggestion is cast on a die-hard Lawful stupid paladin and he's now convinced his "allies" are vicious deplorable murderers? Are his attempts to subdue them and give them the justice they deserve unreasonable?

The problem with basing any argument on what's "reasonable" either way is it's as wide open to personal judgement and interpretation as the ocean is deep.

Correct, which is why CoM has a role, it's reliable and mechanical, whereas the DM is the only one who knows whats reasonable to him AND to the character. You cast it on a character he has a backstory for (like a lawful stupid paladin) he will know how that paladin is going to react.

[mephnick]

What if suggestion is cast on a die-hard Lawful stupid paladin and he's now convinced his "allies" are vicious deplorable murderers? Are his attempts to subdue them and give them the justice they deserve unreasonable?

I wouldn't call that a reasonable suggestion, in general.

"My best friends, who I rely on to save my life daily, are obviously now criminals for some reason!" Even lawful stupid paladins aren't that stupid.

But, let's say you have a thief in the party and the paladin doesn't trust him due to past interactions within the party. A suggestion of "The thief is about to turn on you, subdue him before he has a chance!" is more than reasonable.

So, yeah. Basically "it depends".

[Easy_Lee]

Correct, which is why CoM has a role, it's reliable and mechanical, whereas the DM is the only one who knows whats reasonable to him AND to the character. You cast it on a character he has a backstory for (like a lawful stupid paladin) he will know how that paladin is going to react.

+1, absolutely agree with this

[SharkForce]

To add my two cents, I agree that the spell name seems to imply that it is not control spell so much as making the target believe a thing is true and that a given course of action would be appropriate. The target should later think, "it seemed like a good idea at the time, but now I don't remember why I did that."

So, some examples of how a suggestion might be used to force an action:

House Guard - "I should go for a walk right now. The master told me to watch the yard and not just the treasure room, didn't he? I think he did..."
Merchant - "This item is cursed. I'm really getting the best of that adventurer by selling him this item, even though he must think that the price is a steal. Hah! What an idiot."
Orc Chief - "She's a favored servant of Gruumsh? Better leave her alone and let her do as she pleases."

But I wouldn't think it would work to make someone do something completely out of the question. You're putting a "suggestion" into their mind and letting their reasoning do the rest.


depends what you mean. if you mean the suggestion is both the action and the faulty reasoning, sure. but you're not just giving them an idea and then see how they act on it; you're giving them an action with some faulty reasoning, and so long as the faulty reasoning sounds reasonable (if it were true), they do the action, with special protection only against "obviously harmful" acts, which does not appear to include risk or harm other than physical based on the examples (that is, it certainly is going to harm the knight to give away her horse, which is an important tool he needs to be effective in combat, but it won't cause obvious physical harm in the way that, say, stabbing herself in the face with a knife would cause harm).

but yeah, the spell explicitly notes that you suggest a course of activity, and if they don't pass their save, they do that thing (provided the flimsy justification is there and the act itself is not going to harm them).

so, in your examples, if the suggestion was "you should go check if there's anything unusual happening in the yard" (or similar), then yeah, the guard might think that... but whether he thinks he's supposed to check the yard also or just that there is something important to check that overrides the importance of guarding the vault or any other reason, he will go check the yard if that was the suggestion. he will not call for someone else to check the yard, he won't just stand on his tippy-toes and lean to one side to try and see around a corner to the yard, he will go check the yard, because the suggestion is to go do that, not just that he thinks it's a good idea to check the yard, or that he's supposed to check the yard every so often, etc.

as to the lawful stupid paladin: i would probably require that you make it seem like they're impostors (dopplegangers, disguised wizards, etc). attacking allies for a good aligned person is not typically a reasonable-sounding behaviour. on the flip side, the way some lawful-stupid paladins are played, you may not even need to use a suggestion spell or provide any supporting evidence (but then, the way those lawful-stupid paladins are played, the rest of the group probably are legitimately trying to kill the lawful-stupid paladin, too).

for this reason, suggestion can be much more effective against people with fewer limits on what they will reasonably do; a farmer wouldn't reasonably fight an orc in open combat, but might if you make him think he's protecting his family (on the other hand, getting a farmer to ambush an orc from a relatively safe position with a crossbow wouldn't need much justification at all, especially if the farmer is in an area that is regularly raided by orcs. a soldier, on the other hand, would likely consider it reasonable to attack the orc (provided orcs are considered an enemy, as they frequently will be) and you could simply suggest that he should do it because it's part of his job. even if it's risky, it isn't harmful to him.

likewise, a goblin is typically much more likely to decide that this is the time they've been waiting for to stab their boss in the back and take power than most human guards, which makes it much easier to use suggestion to get goblins to betray each other (for example, persuading the goblin that guards the jail cells that he can use your combat skills to off an enemy of his if he lets you go has a much better chance of working than it would against a human guard in most parts of the world... but maybe not if you're in zhentil keep or something like that :P )

[Talderas]

I think I figured out one advantage that Crown of Madness has over Suggestion. It doesn't need your victim to understand your language. So it can be cast on a bear for example. Where as Suggestion could not.

It does, however, require that the target be a humanoid so you couldn't cast it on a bear. Suggestion does require a shared language but it also can affect any creature.

--


On CoM:

I think CoM would be great if it wasn't concentration. I would rather have a buff up that I know is going to work.

CoM is a thoroughly bad spell. Concentration isn't the problem with it. It's problem is that it's Concentration+ the + in this case also requiring you to expend your action to maintain it. On top of which you only get to intercede and dictate the target of the attack at the beginning of the target's turn.

[Person_Man]

On a related note, I strongly dislike duplicative spells and abilities. It would be better if we could boil down the mental magic down to 9 spells, with each one having a very clear, different, increasingly powerful effects. That way there wouldn't be such arguments/confusions.