How bad are dump stats in 5e?

[Anlashok]

Have only played twice now, both games were one-shots running the standard array.

Newest game is expected to run a bit longer and go through some of the... campaigns and stuff. Not quite sure which one. It's supposed to be sort of a surprise. I'm assuming that just means the DM himself hasn't picked.

All that is immaterial though.

For this game, we can roll stats twice and pick between either of those or the standard array in the PHB. My first set of rolled stats was garbage, so I'm not bringing those up.

The second though I thought was a bit interesting: 16-16-15-12-12-6. High overall, but I'm not sure how bad the 6 might hurt.

So two questions:

-In general how much would that six hurt ?

-Anything cool you can do with two 16s and a 15 and stuff?

[Townopolis]

If you're just looking for mechanical effects and your DM isn't big on ruling that dumb characters must act dumb... put the 6 in Int and don't play a wizard. There are, like, 3 int saves in the game (but try to avoid Intellect Devourers; they will annihilate you in 1.5 rounds, and there will be about 2 things your party can do to save you: jack and diddly).

Seriously, though, aside from Intellect Devourers and illusionists, there's no serious (mechanical) downside to being thick as a brick.

Generally speaking: con, wis, and dex are the three worst stats to dump, and everything else is okay as long as you don't need it to do your stuff.

You might try a paladin with 16 Str, 16 Cha, and 15 Con (and 6 Int, such a stereotype).

[mephnick]

Put it in Dex and role-play that you're too badass to dodge things.

[Ralanr]

Put it in Dex and role-play that you're too badass to dodge things.

That could work. Just wear armor that doesn't give a dex bonus and accept that you will never go first.

I'd still say int.

[Telwar]

That could work. Just wear armor that doesn't give a dex bonus and accept that you will never go first.

I'd still say int.

And if the Dex-wearers roll poorly and he doesn't, he might actually go first.

Either's fine. The roll on the d20 is far more important than any modifiers you might have.

[Ralanr]

And if the Dex-wearers roll poorly and he doesn't, he might actually go first.

Either's fine. The roll on the d20 is far more important than any modifiers you might have.

Right. But doesn't he get a -2 to dex rolls if that's the case? I'm not against it, I think it can go pretty well.

[Pex]

Intelligence is the easiest to dump if not playing a wizard, but rogues should be wary if the DM insists on Investigation to find traps. You're vulnerable to illusions but generally it's the players who are until a player says he wants to roll to disbelieve.

Next is Charisma if you don't need it for spellcasting. Interestingly clerics do not care at all about Charisma this edition. Faceman rogues don't want to dump it either. They can dump strength instead.

Strength/Dexterity tie depending on with which you want to fight. Carrying capacity does matter even if you are a Dexterity combat person so be mindful. Dexterity might win out on not dumping if only because of evocation spells. That's a lot of damage. You don't want to lose a strength save either, but damage spells are more common. However, heavy armor, shield, lump it not going first, you can dump Dexterity.

Never dump Constitution or Wisdom.

[goto124]

I like how Cha wasn't the first thing to be suggested.

My RL Cha sucks, so I leave the talky bits to other party members anyway.

[Gwendol]

Great rolls!

If you are worried about the 6, you can pick a race that ups it. With two 16 already you are sure to hit the ceiling sooner rather than later anyway. Any of the half-casters (Paladin, Ranger), Monk, Barbarian, Rogue, and Fighter benefit greatly from those rolls. And you can multiclass!

[Xetheral]

I vote for a halfling paladin with a splash of monk and a 6 strength. Put 16s in dexterity and wisdom, and the 15 in charisma.

Be the shortest halfling your DM will let you be, and at some point take the Actor feat to boost your Charisma and give you bonuses on pretending to be a small human child.

You: "Excuse me Mister BBEG, have you seen my Daddy?" (Surprise Round: Attack+Smite, 2nd Attack+Smite, Flurry1+Smite, Flurry2+Smite.)

Bloodied BBEG (gasping for breath through a ruined windpipe): "No...but I... have... seen your... *Unkle*."

[Giant2005]

Chuck the low stat in charisma. Not being likable is a lot less debilitating than having the intelligence of an Ape. It is also a lot more fun to play - being an unlikable prick is easy and interesting but playing someone so stupid that you have to actively restrain your own brain isn't fun at all.

[Kurald Galain]

-In general how much would that six hurt ?
Not much; you'll only be 10% worse at that stat than the average person, which is only barely noticeable in gameplay.

[ArchangelAzrael]

With such good stats rolled I would have gone for either a paladin (dumping int and roleplaying it as lacking education and common knowledge rather than smarts), a monk ( and dumping cha, years in isolated meditation have harmed my people skills), or a Barbarian ( in which case I could dump either).

The paladin would probably by a half elf using the feat for polearms and heavy weapons (and most likely oath of Ancients). Stats would be 16 str, 12 dex, 17 con (planing on getting resistance feat here), 6 int, 12 wis and 18 cha after racials.

The monk would probably either be a variant human or more likely a wood elf. feats i would consider would be mobility asap and after I had maxed dex and wis perhaps lucky or ritual caster. Now open hand is the strongest path but i would go with way of the shadow myself. stats priority would be dex then wis then con and you could really damp any of the others but i would like the str to be high in case i need to grapple or trip anyone and to carry things.

for the barbarian I would go Totem path and would try for unarmored route just cause its epic to block things with your chest! Variant human most likely for early feat though a half Orc or dragonborn works as well.

If you had a forth high stat then the maddest of all classes would be available (and still somewhat is). Fiendish bladelock perhaps the truest gish of this edition (at least in my books). Mountain dwarf might be mandatory for armors proficiencies and stats boosts.

hope many people can get lucky and have such a stat array :D enjoy your game and try to survive the first lvls they can be brutal!

[Xetheral]

Chuck the low stat in charisma. Not being likable is a lot less debilitating than having the intelligence of an Ape. It is also a lot more fun to play - being an unlikable prick is easy and interesting but playing someone so stupid that you have to actively restrain your own brain isn't fun at all.

Here I disagree. I always caution my players that stats say a lot about who the character is, and thus it is important to get the stats to line up with the concept. (I also tend to be accordingly generous on point buy.)

Charisma, in that regard, is particularly important. Very, very few concepts I've seen are accurately portrayed by a low charisma, simply because that cuts against the desired "badassness" or "coolness" of the character.

A low charisma doesn't just mean you need to keep your mouth shut and you'll be fine. It means NPCs are more likely to resent you for your abilities, rather than admire you. It means foes are more likely to be offended by your posturing rather than respect your competence. It means your deeds appear to be *less* impressive, because you're a jackass.

Low charisma characters aren't just socially challenged or awkward, they're also lame and pathetic and creepy. In my experience, very few players actually intend to play their character that way.

[Shining Wrath]

Here I disagree. I always caution my players that stats say a lot about who the character is, and thus it is important to get the stats to line up with the concept. (I also tend to be accordingly generous on point buy.)

Charisma, in that regard, is particularly important. Very, very few concepts I've seen are accurately portrayed by a low charisma, simply because that cuts against the desired "badassness" or "coolness" of the character.

A low charisma doesn't just mean you need to keep your mouth shut and you'll be fine. It means NPCs are more likely to resent you for your abilities, rather than admire you. It means foes are more likely to be offended by your posturing rather than respect your competence. It means your deeds appear to be *less* impressive, because you're a jackass.

Low charisma characters aren't just socially challenged or awkward, they're also lame and pathetic and creepy. In my experience, very few players actually intend to play their character that way.

I'm going to argue there's multiple ways to be low charisma.

Charisma, in D&D, represents the ability to change how other people think about you. Persuade, Bluff, Intimidate, all represent this effect. It's the spell casting stat for Sorcerers (and others) because you are making the Weave pay attention to you and respond to your wishes.

Therefore, it's possible that you just won't be very good at changing how other people view you without them necessarily viewing you poorly or disliking you. It's possible to be anti-social without being offensive; perhaps you're just such a nonentity that no one ever notices you.

[PhoenixV]

The game I have been playing for a few months now I rolled a Paladin Human and got a 7 and an 8 (so with human +1 bonus to all it went up to 8 and 9) so two negative stats. I wasn't complaining though since I had some awesome other stats to balance them out. I put one in Dex since I wore heavy armor and Int since I didn't really need it. The roll play has ended up being pretty funny too. I fail horribly on most initiative rolls but I just say that is because I am to honorable to strike first. The rouge also gets away with a lot of things they wouldn't with a more intelligent person. My poor paladin is convinced the lying thief is actually a legit noble because he was convinced of it once and not really smart enough to question it again. I even fought a duel to defend her honor. It was pretty epic. So negative stats can sometimes make things more fun. Just play it out and have a good time!

[Ghost Nappa]

Charisma measures your ability to interact effectively with others. It includes such factors as confidence and eloquence, and it can represent a charming or commanding personality.

The only real conclusion to be made is that a low Charisma means that the character does not interact socially effectively. There's something about that person that is generally interfering with their capacity to convince, inspire, intimidate, or impress others.

Dumping Charisma might mean that people think a character is simple minded when he's actually quite intelligent. Perhaps he's not quite as fluent in Common as he is in his native tongue. Perhaps his grand physique and simple grammar make him to be quite different than he is. (http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/The_Heavy)

Or perhaps zir low Charisma means that while they are quite obviously and visibly intelligent they come off as rude, boorish, (http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Soren) or insufferable. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0010.html) People will disagree with their plans and motivations not because of the merits or flaws of the plan but because their demeanor is unpleasant, off-putting, or dour.

Maybe a low Charisma means that they're uninspiring.

Maybe it means they're socially dependent on someone else: they are incapable of commanding others and actually seek out others to command them!

Maybe they're low Charisma is due to a societal reason. Perhaps people have qualms over letting the illegitimate child inherit the throne due to the nature of their birth.

Whatever flaw they carry or are victim to carries into how they carry themself, their confidence and their ability to interact with the people around them. It interferes with their ability to use the Weave to affect the world as they please (Sorcerers, Bards, Warlocks, Paladins).


Dumping mental scores "require" more precise than physical scores in terms of character concept. This isn't to say that explanations for outstanding or terrible physical scores shouldn't be thought of or explained, but I think more people are going to argue with you over what a lower mental score means than a lower physical score (in terms of role-playing) simply because it's more abstract.

[Xetheral]

I'm going to argue there's multiple ways to be low charisma.

I agree. Different tables will interpret the meaning of each stat differently.


Charisma, in D&D, represents the ability to change how other people think about you. Persuade, Bluff, Intimidate, all represent this effect. It's the spell casting stat for Sorcerers (and others) because you are making the Weave pay attention to you and respond to your wishes.

I agree that Persuade, Bluff, and Intimidate all represent one's ability to change other's impressions, but in my opinion that doesn't apply to the Charisma attribute itself. Instead, I think the 5e description of Charisma as quoted by Ghost Nappa is an excellent summary.

So a low-charisma character lacks confidence and is worse at interacting effectively with others. That doesn't just mean they have a slightly worse chance of succeeding on a Charisma-linked skill roll, it also means that they have less faith in their own abilities, and that run-of-the-mill interactions with NPCs that don't call for rolls are more likely to be unfavorable. The low charisma character is the one the waitresses speak of disparagingly, and the one the shopkeepers complain about to their spouses.

Sure, an 8 charisma isn't crippling, just as a 12 charisma isn't that impressive. But once you start getting down to around 6 and below, effective interactions with NPCs become very challenging. If you'd prefer to be tolerated, instead people find you distasteful. If you'd prefer to be unnoticed, instead you stand out like a sore thumb. If you'd prefer to be feared, instead you're laughable. And since NPCs gossip, word is going to spread. In my mind, unless they're also trained in the social skills to compensate, the best reputation such a character is ever likely to manage is: "extremely effective, but a pain to work with".


Therefore, it's possible that you just won't be very good at changing how other people view you without them necessarily viewing you poorly or disliking you. It's possible to be anti-social without being offensive; perhaps you're just such a nonentity that no one ever notices you.

In my mind, such a character would have a 10 charisma and lack proficiency in any social skills. I feel a low charisma is just as notable as a high charisma.

[Shining Wrath]

I agree. Different tables will interpret the meaning of each stat differently.



I agree that Persuade, Bluff, and Intimidate all represent one's ability to change other's impressions, but in my opinion that doesn't apply to the Charisma attribute itself. Instead, I think the 5e description of Charisma as quoted by Ghost Nappa is an excellent summary.

So a low-charisma character lacks confidence and is worse at interacting effectively with others. That doesn't just mean they have a slightly worse chance of succeeding on a Charisma-linked skill roll, it also means that they have less faith in their own abilities, and that run-of-the-mill interactions with NPCs that don't call for rolls are more likely to be unfavorable. The low charisma character is the one the waitresses speak of disparagingly, and the one the shopkeepers complain about to their spouses.

Sure, an 8 charisma isn't crippling, just as a 12 charisma isn't that impressive. But once you start getting down to around 6 and below, effective interactions with NPCs become very challenging. If you'd prefer to be tolerated, instead people find you distasteful. If you'd prefer to be unnoticed, instead you stand out like a sore thumb. If you'd prefer to be feared, instead you're laughable. And since NPCs gossip, word is going to spread. In my mind, unless they're also trained in the social skills to compensate, the best reputation such a character is ever likely to manage is: "extremely effective, but a pain to work with".



In my mind, such a character would have a 10 charisma and lack proficiency in any social skills. I feel a low charisma is just as notable as a high charisma.

I think being bad at getting people to like you is not the same as always, every time, making people dislike you. Especially if you just keep your mouth shut.

[Person_Man]

Dumping a stat is not that big of a deal thanks to bounded accuracy.

I've also run one-shot games where everyone got 20 (+5) in one attribute of their choice, and 16 (+3) in everything else (you're great at one thing, good at everything else), and you were free to describe your character however you wanted. (Basically ignoring the simulationist aspects of the game). It worked quite well, and in general players were much more likely to do what made sense for their character in the moment instead of doing what they were optimized to do. Players used a wider variety of Skills, improvised actions, etc.

[Easy_Lee]

I'd say it depends on your race, class, and group makeup. If you have a lot of high CHA characters in the group, you can safely dump that without much worry. Even if someone starts charming and dominating people, you'll be the only one who gets dominated. And if you played an elf or a barbarian, you're immune to some CHA saves anyway.

Similarly, if you run with an intelligent party you'll probably do just fine with dumping INT, letting them do the investigation and arcana checks and just closing your eyes when you suspect illusions are about.

Strength and dexterity are hard to dump since low scores in either can get you killed in certain situations (engulfed by an ooze, breathed on by a dragon). INT and CHA effects don't usually kill you outright, so those are the safest dump stats. Never dump CON unless you're trying to be funny.

[Chronos]

Quoth Xetheral:

I vote for a halfling paladin with a splash of monk and a 6 strength.
Note that your houserules might vary, but this isn't actually legal. To be a multiclassed paladin, you need a 13 Str, despite the fact that they can use Dex just as easily as Str.

[goto124]

I have low Cha IRL. Which means I'd not that good at roleplaying. I find that my character's Cha is to an extent hampered by my RL Cha. I could dump every other stat to bring my in-game Cha to high levels, but if my RL Cha stops me from coming up with ideas in the first place, the DM isn't going to allow me to do a lot of things. Especially if said DM's RL Cha is higher than mine.

And really, if you're travelling in a party, relying on the 'party face' should be survivable and not too distressing for anyone in the party.

The importance of Cha can depend on the type of campaign. Some games concentrate more on combat, others more on social.

And even social-oriented games require quite a bit of RL Cha, otherwise it stretches the DM's mind a bit too far.

DnD isn't well-suited for social encounters anyway. There're other more social-oriented systems out there.

Perhaps my view of the situation is skewed, due to my lack of RL Cha. But I'll put my point of view out there.

[Ralanr]

This thread makes me want to play a character with low charisma now.

[Easy_Lee]

Note that your houserules might vary, but this isn't actually legal. To be a multiclassed paladin, you need a 13 Str, despite the fact that they can use Dex just as easily as Str.

I believe he means he would start as a paladin. There are stat requirements to multiclass into a class, but not out of it I think.

[Chronos]

Nope, the minimum stats apply both to your old and new classes.

[Giant2005]

A low charisma doesn't just mean you need to keep your mouth shut and you'll be fine. It means NPCs are more likely to resent you for your abilities, rather than admire you. It means foes are more likely to be offended by your posturing rather than respect your competence. It means your deeds appear to be *less* impressive, because you're a jackass.

And those things don't sound fun to you? Even if they don't sound fun to you... They probably sound a lot more fun than the guy that is as smart as an ape.

[Easy_Lee]

Charisma represents force of personality, how well you are at swaying others. It doesn't necessarily mean one is likeable.

[Ralanr]

Charisma represents force of personality, how well you are at swaying others. It doesn't necessarily mean one is likeable.

Intimidate runs off of it for Pelor's sake.

[goto124]

A low charisma doesn't just mean you need to keep your mouth shut and you'll be fine. It means NPCs are more likely to resent you for your abilities, rather than admire you. It means foes are more likely to be offended by your posturing rather than respect your competence. It means your deeds appear to be *less* impressive, because you're a jackass.

Probably a lot to do with my low RL Cha, but I can't tell how this works out in actual campaigns.

Maybe it's because I'm extending 'keep your mouth shut' to 'don't have any social interactions with any NPCs ever'.

Or at least 'NPCs you're going to kill anyway'.

Or I've played only games where NPCs are acting like that all the time anyway.

It's probably a more social-oriented campaign where this happens, where the first sentence in that quote doesn't apply? If Cha is important enough to not be dumped, which stat should he choose, since dumping Int probably won't go well either?




I play a low-Cha PC, and she mostly just kept her mouth shut when in a situation she could actually offend someone. She can handle basic social interaction, and mostly dealt with monsters or dumb people anyway. Helps that her social (in)competence is pretty much exactly mine, and I've got no problem with leaving it to the 'party face' every so often, when the alternative is me rolling a 17 on Diplomancy and I say something that's essentially 'I throw insults at the king'. Exaggerated, but the idea's there.

[Kurald Galain]

Charisma, in that regard, is particularly important. Very, very few concepts I've seen are accurately portrayed by a low charisma, simply because that cuts against the desired "badassness" or "coolness" of the character.

It is nevertheless one of the most common dump stats throughout the history of D&D, so it strikes me that either players enjoy different concepts than you do, or people simply disagree about whether a character with slightly below average charisma can be "badass".

[Ralanr]

Wait...would someone with a charisma of 3 or lower be unnoticeable?

[goto124]

The Dm will ask you why one of your stats is that low. Even if it's Cha.

[Easy_Lee]

Wait...would someone with a charisma of 3 or lower be unnoticeable?

Less than 10 is negative modifiers, meaning it's possible to get a result less than 1. That probably means that whatever one was trying to do fails so spectacularly that it achieves the opposite. For example, if a man were trying to persuade a woman to sleep with him, I suspect this result would make himseem less attractive than if he had said nothing (a real world phenomenon which I, sadly, can confirm).

For someone with a charisma of 3, I imagine that this sort of thing happens a lot. The person would eventually learn to remain silent most of the time (unless the person's wisdom is also 3).

[Kurald Galain]

Less than 10 is negative modifiers, meaning it's possible to get a result less than 1. That probably means that whatever one was trying to do fails so spectacularly that it achieves the opposite. For example, if a man were trying to persuade a woman to sleep with him, I suspect this result would make himseem less attractive than if he had said nothing (a real world phenomenon which I, sadly, can confirm).

So all the Cha-3 guy has to do is try to persuade women to leave him alone. He'll fail so spectacularly that he ends up like that guy in the Axe commercial. :smallcool:

[Xetheral]

Note that your houserules might vary, but this isn't actually legal. To be a multiclassed paladin, you need a 13 Str, despite the fact that they can use Dex just as easily as Str.

Good point. I forgot about that.


And those things don't sound fun to you? Even if they don't sound fun to you... They probably sound a lot more fun than the guy that is as smart as an ape.

Honestly, I'd rather play the low intelligence guy.


It is nevertheless one of the most common dump stats throughout the history of D&D, so it strikes me that either players enjoy different concepts than you do, or people simply disagree about whether a character with slightly below average charisma can be "badass".

Almost certainly the latter. (The former may also be true, for potentially unrelated reasons.) I knew my opinion on what charisma "means" was a bit unusual, but based on the responses in this thread my perspective may be even more of an outlier than I thought. That's good to know, and useful food for thought.

[Chronos]

Charisma is how good you are at getting others to see you the way you want them to see you. Likeability comes into this because most people want to be liked. A person who wants to be liked, but who has low charisma, will be disliked.


Quoth Kurald Galain:

So all the Cha-3 guy has to do is try to persuade women to leave him alone. He'll fail so spectacularly that he ends up like that guy in the Axe commercial.
Sure, but it's based on what you actually want, not on what you're pretending to want. Maybe he's getting plenty of female attention, but it's all from Nell the Kitchen Wench, who is so globular that one can find geography in her.

[Ralanr]

All I can think of now is how useful low charisma is to sneaking. It's like that one camper in camp Lazlo. No one noticed him walking up to a vault, even the traps didn't register him!

[goto124]

Actually, since Cha means controlling other people's perception of you...

If you don't want to be seen, you will be seen!

Whoops :D

[Ralanr]

Actually, since Cha means controlling other people's perception of you...

If you don't want to be seen, you will be seen!

Whoops :D

But what if you don't care?

[Easy_Lee]

As said, charisma is supposed to represent force of personality - ability to be persuasive, intimidating, or deceptive. How well can you convince someone of something you want them to believe?

This is not the same as likeability. Two of the most charismatic races, half elves and tieflings, are two if the most widely hated and discriminated against in FE. Drow are the most charismatic elves and they are universally hated; they don't even like each other. But they make damn good liars, and people are sure scared of them.

Notably, it has nothing to do with stealthiness. The drow, once again, are the most charismatic elves, and yet they are also considered the most stealthy. A drow not trying to hide will stand out, but only because there are few on the surface and everyone hates them.

[Alikat]

I have low Cha IRL. Which means I'd not that good at roleplaying. I find that my character's Cha is to an extent hampered by my RL Cha. I could dump every other stat to bring my in-game Cha to high levels, but if my RL Cha stops me from coming up with ideas in the first place, the DM isn't going to allow me to do a lot of things. Especially if said DM's RL Cha is higher than mine.

And really, if you're travelling in a party, relying on the 'party face' should be survivable and not too distressing for anyone in the party.

The importance of Cha can depend on the type of campaign. Some games concentrate more on combat, others more on social.

And even social-oriented games require quite a bit of RL Cha, otherwise it stretches the DM's mind a bit too far.

DnD isn't well-suited for social encounters anyway. There're other more social-oriented systems out there.

Perhaps my view of the situation is skewed, due to my lack of RL Cha. But I'll put my point of view out there.

I've felt like I'm in this same boat. It's why I gave up on playing things like bards even though they're my favorite class. I'm the one who tends to come up with all the clever think-outside-the-box plans in my group though. I ended up making a character concept just to reflect my irl stats. Was a rogue/swashbuckler/fighter hybrid with knowledge devotion and a bunch of int stacking mods. I made him a member of that knowledge society in one of the splat books that gives you skill points in like every knowledge domain and played him as a discredited academic/archeologist, add in daring swashbuckler, neutral evil alignment, and he was like an evil, ruthless - but brilliant indiana jones who everyone hated.

[kaoskonfety]

Charisma dump
Play a barbarian
Live the grunt/growl stereo type

Dump Wisdom
Play a fiend warlock
Be the guy who takes your imps advice when its not OBVIOUSLY evil

Dump Strength
Halfling finesse fighter,
Try to grapple things anyway

Dump Int
Play a druid
Be The Bear

Dump Dex
Be a Paladin
Laugh at people who think they need to go first

and my favorite:

Dump Con
Play a Wizard
Win the prize for lowest HP score - bonus points for a non-defensive speciality

[Forum Explorer]

Dump Con
Play a Wizard
Win the prize for lowest HP score - bonus points for a non-defensive speciality

Go evoker, overchannal everything. Bring all new meaning to the term 'glass cannon.'

[Easy_Lee]

Go evoker, overchannal everything. Bring all new meaning to the term 'glass cannon.'

Makes me think of Elijah Price from Unbreakable. That could be a fun character concept.

[kaoskonfety]

Makes me think of Elijah Price from Unbreakable. That could be a fun character concept.


Glass Cane Focus, padded everything, very careful... works

I was more thinking:
Wreathed in Eldrich Flames, eyes mad with power....
"Why yes! Casting this spell will probably kill me! But none of you will live to know for sure, will you?! Do us ALL a favour: SURRENDER!"
Never Dump Charisma, Intimidate and Diplomacy on one check + overchannel fireball = Hilarious

[Wartex1]

Any stat really works fine except for Constitution and Dexterity for casters beside the class's main stat.