Knives, Use and Care [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

TheThan

2015-04-09, 03:26 AM

I’m not sure of all this is relevant to what you’re asking about but here goes.

A knife guy will keep his knife sharp. This means he has a few basic pieces of gear to keep his knife in top condition. Those are a sharpening system, there are a lot on the market; a quick wiki search will show you what’s available. He’ll also have some way to keep his knife sharp in between sharpening sessions. This will be either a leather strop like a barber uses or a steel rod like that comes in those big blocks of kitchen knives. Honing a knife on the strop keeps the knife sharp so you don’t have to sharpen it as much. Every time you sharpen a knife, you leave a little bit of the knife behind. I’ve seen some really old pocket knives that had been sharpened so much and were so worn down that they had taken on a different shape from their original profile.

A knife guy will protect his knife from the elements. He will keep his knife well oiled, the oil forms a barrier that prevents water and other junk getting onto the blade and making it rust. Another method that helps prevent rust is to develop a patina on the metal that will help prevent rust penetrating the metal and ruining it. A lot of people “force” a patina with chemicals and natural materials (mustard seems to be a favorite). lastly there are different material that can be coated onto a knife blade to protect it. think a spray on truck liner sort of material. it gets sprayed on and the knife is protected from rust. the very edge of the blade is left bare so it can be used without the coating getting in the way. there are alot of similar products on the market. These coatings all work but they get worn off with time and hard use. a knife guy will eventually have to choose to leave it, strip it off and leave the blade naked or strip it off and redo the coating.

A knife guy will also keep his knife clean, he’ll clean off any dirt, grit, blood etc that gets on his blade when he’s done, he may even go so far as to polish it afterwards.

A knife guy will try not to abuse his knife, he will try to not to use his knife to pry open things, bend things, stab it into hard surfaces use it as a pry bar ect. Basically anything that would break the knife a knife guy tries to not do.

In the environment you give, keeping a knife in good shape is going to be hard work. Salt water and high humidity is not good for most metal.

All steel knives will rust with time; it’s the nature of steel. However we’ve got steel making down to a science so we can custom craft steel for just about any purpose. So we can make steel that’s very rust resistant. However, problem is that knives like certain properties, and it’s very hard to make a steel that meets all of those characteristics at the same time.

Here’s some more elaboration:
There are basically two different kinds of steel, stainless and carbon.
Carbon steel is your basic steel, an iron and carbon (hence the name) alloy; it’s not very rust resistant but it has some other very good properties that make for good knife blades. Carbon steel is a little “soft”, meaning it is flexible allowing it to resist lateral stress and chipping. There’s a bit of a paradox regarding steel, flexibility in steel is strength (up to a point), it allows a piece of steel to flex and bend but not break. You don’t want those I-beam girders holding up that 5 story building to snap like a twig and bring the whole thing down when a load is placed on it after all.

The other is stainless steel, which is iron, carbon and Chromium. It’s much more rust resistant requiring less care. Stainless is harder, meaning it’s more brittle and is more likely to crack when lateral stress is placed on it. It also doesn’t take an edge as easily, but it can hold it just as long as a carbon steel blades. There’s little difference in quality stainless and quality carbon steel as far as sharpness goes; at least in my experience.

There are also different grades of steel; depending on what the steel is being manufactured for it will contain different amounts of carbon and Chronium. You can get knife blades in a variety of different steels depending on your tastes. Most quality knife manufacturers will even tell you what their knives are made out of and often times offer the same knife in different sorts of steel to suit a wide customer base.

Here’s a list of common materials used for modern knives: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_blade_materials

There’s no perfect steel for the environment you’re talking about, salt water is very destructive to knives and people who use their knives while out on the water a lot tend to replace them more often as they just can’t survive. The more resistant the knife is, the worst it’s other properties are when it comes to edge retention, strength, etc at least as is my understanding (if I'm wrong feel free to correct me on this).

You may want to use a different sort of material; titanium is available and is used in diver’s knives because it is much more rust resistant. Ceramic knives are also coming onto the market in the culinary world, although I imagine they are quite fragile, judging from my experience with ceramics.

Jay R

2015-04-09, 08:58 AM

Fri

2015-04-09, 11:58 AM

Right. A "Character." Of course :smallwink:

Palanan

2015-04-09, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by golentan
Assume it will corrode pretty severely without maintenance over the course of about a year or so if it's not stain resistant metal at all, developing obvious rust and losing its edge early on and quickly devolving into more or less a block of iron oxide.

Okay, thanks for this. Although a stab from a rusty knife can have other consequences in a warm, humid environment.

Originally Posted by TheThan
I’m not sure of all this is relevant to what you’re asking about but here goes.

This is all extremely useful for context and background, so thanks very much, it's definitely appreciated.

Originally Posted by TheThan
A knife guy will keep his knife sharp. This means he has a few basic pieces of gear to keep his knife in top condition.

Going through my uncle's garage, which has some undiscovered portal to the Elemental Plane of Junk, I've found several long rectangular sharpening-stones, plus some rods like you describe. I have yet to find the actual knives he used them with, unless these could also be used for sharpening some of his bandsaw or table-saw blades.

Originally Posted by TheThan
I’ve seen some really old pocket knives that had been sharpened so much and were so worn down that they had taken on a different shape from their original profile.

Yup, I've seen machetes in rural Brazil that were so worn from sharpening they looked more like long fish-cutting knives. Those folks know how to make things last.

Originally Posted by TheThan
You may want to use a different sort of material; titanium is available and is used in diver’s knives because it is much more rust resistant. Ceramic knives are also coming onto the market in the culinary world, although I imagine they are quite fragile, judging from my experience with ceramics.

Good to keep in mind, and very interesting context on carbon and stainless steels.

I should have clarified in the OP that what I'm writing takes place in an vaguely mid-Renaissance culture, so they probably wouldn't be using titanium or chromium. But all good to know nonetheless.

Originally Posted by Jay R
And since sharpening them uses oil, you are also protecting them from the weather. You might add, "Due to the humidity, he leaves a very thin layer of oil on them when he's finished."

Good point to keep in mind, thanks.

Is there anything in how an experienced knifefighter actually holds a blade that would be indicative of long experience? I've been told that a backhand grip is more vulnerable to a disarm, but that's about all that I know on proper grip and the like.

I've also been told about the "eight cuts," apparently a version of saber cuts translated to knifework, but no idea if that has much basis in reality.

Cristo Meyers

2015-04-09, 01:28 PM

Is there anything in how an experienced knifefighter actually holds a blade that would be indicative of long experience? I've been told that a backhand grip is more vulnerable to a disarm, but that's about all that I know on proper grip and the like.

Not really. A person that's handy with a knife isn't going to look much different than a person who was born with one in their hand at first glance: they're both going to keep the blade between themselves and their opponent, basic things like that. The difference tends to make itself apparent when the fight starts. Knife fighting gets up-close and dirty real quick, almost like wrestling.

A backhand grip is kinda-sorta more vulnerable, but that comes with the trade off of being able to pull off a more powerful downward stab. Plus someone disarming you of a knife most likely already has ahold of your wrist anyway. A lot of whether a knife-fighter holds their knife backhand or not comes to comfort and preference.

That's not to say there aren't pros and cons to both ways though, there are. Unfortunately my research isn't much more deep than yours right now.

One thing I did think off that you could use: cuts to the hands are inevitable. Someone who's spent a lot of time in knife fights is probably going to have pretty heavily scarred hands and knuckles.

No brains

2015-04-09, 01:44 PM

Less about knife care/usage and more about composition is that a knife should be made of only one kind of metal if it's expected to be in a high humidity environment. If there are two different metals on a knife, galvanic corrosion can occur. This led to a style of knife called a sailor's knife which is made from one rod of metal with the handle turned and twisted to fit a person's hand.

Although it is possible for someone in the know to address all issue of knife maintenance regardless of what it's made of, taking the step of choosing a more easily maintained knife spares some detail and keeps knife-obsessing behaviour from getting repetitive. It might make them seem a little less like a 'knife guy' but perhaps a more interesting/ varied character.

TheThan

2015-04-09, 03:12 PM

There’s a lot of different schools of thought on technique and skill when talking about knife fighting. Depending on who you ask, and what their credentials are, they will tell you different things, often times conflicting things as well.

This is all extremely useful for context and background, so thanks very much, it's definitely appreciated.

No problem.

Going through my uncle's garage, which has some undiscovered portal to the Elemental Plane of Junk, I've found several long rectangular sharpening-stones, plus some rods like you describe. I have yet to find the actual knives he used them with, unless these could also be used for sharpening some of his bandsaw or table-saw blades.

I highly doubt that, saw blades require files and some like cross cut saws require some specialized tools. Although they could be used to sharpen axes (yes axes need sharpening too). Most likely they were used on knives, chisels, axes, drill bits (yes drill bits), and the like.
That elemental plane of junk probably has a lot of really cool stuff in it. Old tools are wonderful and if restored well are magnificent and beautiful gems (and a lot of times, much better in quality than new tools).

I should have clarified in the OP that what I'm writing takes place in an vaguely mid-Renaissance culture, so they probably wouldn't be using titanium or chromium. But all good to know nonetheless.

Oh ok, well prior to the industrial revolution, making steel was an art not a science. They didn’t have these fancy formulas they use to make the perfect steel for the situation. It was a lot more guess work. People had to figure it out and do it by hand. People had to smelt the iron ore down removing the slag and imperfections; then adding the carbon (charcoal) to make the steel. Like I said this was a guessing game so it was hard to make different batches come out the same. It took a trained eye and a lot of experience to get the mix just right.

I’m not sure how that would play into your character, but it’s certainly something to think about.

SiuiS

2015-04-09, 03:53 PM

Right. A "Character." Of course :smallwink:

I am quite a character, and this thread is relevant to my interests! I even bought a new buck so I would have something A) worth sharpening and B) not too expensive that I'm afraid of a bad sharpening job ruining it~

Okay, thanks for this. Although a stab from a rusty knife can have other consequences in a warm, humid environment.

How so?

Tetanus isn't from the rusty metal, it's from common bacteria found in the soil and such where rusty metal objects tend to be. Stepping in a rusty nail can infect you. Stabbed by rusty knife, not so much. Or am I wrong?

Is there anything in how an experienced knifefighter actually holds a blade that would be indicative of long experience? I've been told that a backhand grip is more vulnerable to a disarm, but that's about all that I know on proper grip and the like.

I've also been told about the "eight cuts," apparently a version of saber cuts translated to knifework, but no idea if that has much basis in reality.

Two things.

A trained knife fighter is not going to have a default grip. They're going to use what works in their situation. Sometimes that's overhand, sometimes underhand. Sometimes main hand, sometimes offhand. They do what works.

A trained knife fighter is not going to use large, or powerful, strokes. A knife is a razor with handle and some backing. Very fast, sloppy looking short strokes will look terrible if you watch them (look up Dan Inosanto on YouTube, see if you can find a knife video) but they will really, really mess up fleshy tissue on the recieving end. "What about armor?" One might ask? Just like with hand to hand combat, where you don't put your small, fragile bones where the enemy is strongest (and hurt yourself), you don't stab metal. You work around it.

See if you can still find any websites on "Piper" out there. It's supposed to be a South African knife 'style' based on a bunch of different things the folks there found effective – supposedly in a part of the world where a mugging is less likely than having your body pilfered after a few devestating Attacks.

Not really. A person that's handy with a knife isn't going to look much different than a person who was born with one in their hand at first glance: they're both going to keep the blade between themselves and their opponent, basic things like that. The difference tends to make itself apparent when the fight starts. Knife fighting gets up-close and dirty real quick, almost like wrestling.

And any real fight is over, usually, in seconds. A fight that lasts 30 seconds is a very long fight. Bruce Lee had a multiman melee once, that left him exhausted and sucking air after a minute and a half or so, yes? All that adrenaline, Balistic muscle work, mental stress? Hell. That's why we train. Half of a fight is keeping those reserves out of your system until the other guy expends himself a bit. Breathing. Calm. Etc.

Again, any corrections if I'm wrong are good. :)

Anarion

2015-04-09, 04:08 PM

And any real fight is over, usually, in seconds. A fight that lasts 30 seconds is a very long fight. Bruce Lee had a multiman melee once, that left him exhausted and sucking air after a minute and a half or so, yes? All that adrenaline, Balistic muscle work, mental stress? Hell. That's why we train. Half of a fight is keeping those reserves out of your system until the other guy expends himself a bit. Breathing. Calm. Etc.

Again, any corrections if I'm wrong are good. :)

On that note, I haven't done any weapons fighting, but I did do Taekwondo for a few years and 2 minutes of continuous fighting (or equivalent continuous routine on a large bag) was considered a massively difficult endurance test. Rounds might be a minute or two long, but the vast majority of that time was spent standing still or slowly maneuvering around people. Actual techniques are not long and you can end something in about 1 second if you get a solid blow through defenses (one is allowed to kick the head in Taekwondo if one has the skill to pull it off and the opponent leaves such an opening).

razorback

2015-04-09, 04:23 PM

As part of my training I've learned knife fighting for years. I've trained with other styles and some of the things that have commonality -
As SiuiS said, there is not default grip. You need to be able to flow with the knife.

A trained knife fighter is not going to have a default grip. They're going to use what works in their situation. Sometimes that's overhand, sometimes underhand. Sometimes main hand, sometimes offhand. They do what works.

This.

A trained knife fighter is not going to use large, or powerful, strokes. A knife is a razor with handle and some backing. Very fast, sloppy looking short strokes will look terrible if you watch them (look up Dan Inosanto on YouTube, see if you can find a knife video) but they will really, really mess up fleshy tissue on the recieving end. "What about armor?" One might ask? Just like with hand to hand combat, where you don't put your small, fragile bones where the enemy is strongest (and hurt yourself), you don't stab metal. You work around it.

Think about fighting in a box, no wider than your shoulders. Anytime you go outside that you open yourself up to counter strikes and parries. Be precise because your life depends upon it.

Every knife fighter I have met always leads with the knife in the lead hand. The other hand is held up to protect the face/neck/upper body. My style favors holding the knife close to the body but I've seen others hold them away from the body.

They also tend to have a knife readily available but unobtrusive. I have 3 on me right now but only one is casually visible.

Scars. If they are good, on the bony side of the forearm, if that makes sense.

Palanan

2015-04-09, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by TheThan
There’s a lot of different schools of thought on technique and skill when talking about knife fighting. Depending on who you ask, and what their credentials are, they will tell you different things, often times conflicting things as well.

Yup, something I'm keeping very much in mind.

The few bits I've gleaned have been from a friend or two who were hobbyists more than serious knife fighters--the type who probably know just enough to sound cool and authoritative, but who've likely never been in a serious confrontation themselves.

(Or, in one case, the type who are so terribly proud of the supposedly three-hundred-year-old katana they bought on a random website, but can't read the Japanese "letter of authenticity" that came with it.)

Originally Posted by TheThan
That elemental plane of junk probably has a lot of really cool stuff in it.

That garage has forty-five years of accumulated stuff, and there are countless small, expensive items that would still be worth a lot to a woodworker or a shop guy.

And they're all randomly mixed in with the boxes of old ammo, the fossilized rubber bands, the dead spark plugs from 1964, the outdated car speakers, the endless cups of mismatched nails and the indescribable crud stacked and piled and wedged into every space.

All of this spread across the table saw, the bandsaw, the rotary-arm saw, the drill press, the planer, the joiner, and several other freestanding items I couldn't put a name to. Plus the turning lathe, the collection of chisels, the half-dozen industrial-sized rolls of sandpaper, the countless catalogs and product samples from woodworking conventions, and the inevitable compressor.

And did I mention the boat junk?

And I'm the one who has to sift any potential gems from all the fossilized crud.

Originally Posted by TheThan
I’m not sure how that would play into your character, but it’s certainly something to think about.

Indeed, thanks. At some point I'll need to break down and do some reading on Renaissance metallurgy.

Originally Posted by razorback
…there is not default grip. You need to be able to flow with the knife.

This puts me in mind of the fight in Winter Soldier when Bucky Barnes is flipping the knife around. That was careful choreography rather than an actual fight, but still impressive in its own way.

Originally Posted by razorback
Scars. If they are good, on the bony side of the forearm, if that makes sense.

…not really, actually. Could you explain that?

It seems interesting, and something I might be able to use, just not obvious what you mean.

Cristo Meyers

2015-04-09, 05:19 PM

…not really, actually. Could you explain that?

It seems interesting, and something I might be able to use, just not obvious what you mean.

I think they mean this:

Hold your arm out in front of you, palm out and fingers up. You're looking at having scars along the right side of your arm, where you can feel the forearm bones most easily.

Common place for defensive wounds. People tend to bring their arms up with the underside of their arm facing out to defend the face, so they'll catch a strike on the bony part of the arm.

razorback

2015-04-09, 05:27 PM

One thing thst seems to be a commonthing is the idea that if you get into a knife fight you are going to get cut. The concept is that expect it so you don't feel out and control where you are cut. With the he outer/ ulna side being mostly skin and bone is better to deflect than the inner wrist, where there are a lot of blood vessels. I remember seeing some video with Filipino escrimadors who fought and that they all had scars there, which, to me, reinforced what I had been taught.

TheThan

2015-04-09, 06:50 PM

The few bits I've gleaned have been from a friend or two who were hobbyists more than serious knife fighters--the type who probably know just enough to sound cool and authoritative, but who've likely never been in a serious confrontation themselves.

(Or, in one case, the type who are so terribly proud of the supposedly three-hundred-year-old katana they bought on a random website, but can't read the Japanese "letter of authenticity" that came with it.)

Haha
I remember the tanto knife craze back when everyone thought that the samurai style tanto point was the bestest blade money could buy ever (that was after the Rambo knife craze). I even fell into that crowd myself, but I’ve grown up since then and realized that different blades have different purposes and a body should use a blade that fits his lifestyle, sensibilities and the work he's doing.

That garage has forty-five years of accumulated stuff, and there are countless small, expensive items that would still be worth a lot to a woodworker or a shop guy.

And they're all randomly mixed in with the boxes of old ammo, the fossilized rubber bands, the dead spark plugs from 1964, the outdated car speakers, the endless cups of mismatched nails and the indescribable crud stacked and piled and wedged into every space.

All of this spread across the table saw, the bandsaw, the rotary-arm saw, the drill press, the planer, the joiner, and several other freestanding items I couldn't put a name to. Plus the turning lathe, the collection of chisels, the half-dozen industrial-sized rolls of sandpaper, the countless catalogs and product samples from woodworking conventions, and the inevitable compressor.

And did I mention the boat junk?

And I'm the one who has to sift any potential gems from all the fossilized crud.

This garage sounds awesome. I'm sure it's worth it to sort through it, clean up the tools, toss the utter crap and organize the odds and ends.
I feel that knife fighting is last ditch endeavor when nothing else is going to work to get you out of a bad situation. If you're drawing your knife, that bad situation just got worse. Basically I feel a knife is a tool first, weapon second. so I'll let the knife fighting aficionados talk about how to use them in a fight.

However there is one thing I'd like to point out; don't throw your knife. Think about it. if you throw it, you disarm yourself by throwing it away or worse giving it to your enemy. good luck sticking it really. they do make purpose built throwing knives but you can't realistically rely upon them since there's a limited supply you can carry. so the image of the bad as knife thrower decked out in a ton of knives for throwing isn't really a thing in reality.

Cristo Meyers

2015-04-09, 07:09 PM

However there is one thing I'd like to point out; don't throw your knife. Think about it. if you throw it, you disarm yourself by throwing it away or worse giving it to your enemy. good luck sticking it really. they do make purpose built throwing knives but you can't realistically rely upon them since there's a limited supply you can carry. so the image of the bad as knife thrower decked out in a ton of knives for throwing isn't really a thing in reality.

There was a reality competition on the History Channel called Top Shot that illustrates this perfectly.

These guys were expert marksmen, most of them formally trained soldiers, and they still only stuck maybe 1 out of 3 knives.

'CLANG! You failed!'

SiuiS

2015-04-09, 11:29 PM

Yup, something I'm keeping very much in mind.

The few bits I've gleaned have been from a friend or two who were hobbyists more than serious knife fighters--the type who probably know just enough to sound cool and authoritative, but who've likely never been in a serious confrontation themselves.

I'm mostly in that category! It's a safer, happier category to be in though. It's just before you really get to "when you have a hammer you always see nails" territory...

…not really, actually. Could you explain that?

It seems interesting, and something I might be able to use, just not obvious what you mean.

For the same reason you elevate your shoulders and tuck your chin when boxing, or block with your shin When being kicked. You're going to get cut. It's up to you whether that's a merciless murder slash or the result of a parry. It's up to you whether you party with a bone or with delicate vessels and nerves and tendons.

It's using the best tool for the job, is all. With a caveat that it's a crap job you never want to do. That tends to go unspoken either due to implicit understanding or machismo. The most effective martial arts technique in any style, is two feet swift beat pavement. That should be your go-to, always. Everything else you learn is for that dreaded hypothetical where you can't do that.

This is because the alternatives are A) ambush and murder on your part or B) a fair fight. Which sounds weird until you realize that fair fight means 50% chance your momma buries you early. Ever since I had my own kid, that became unacceptable.

Maybe that's the third thing you should look at? Really look at? Knife fighting is no joke. It's the intent to end a human being, quell the remaining decades of their life. End and ruin their potential, while looking them in the eyes. It takes a certain type of soul to be able to do that. It takes a rare person to do it without breaking somehow. Is this character broken? Spiritually calloused?

The most effective intimidation tactic As a civilian is, when looking at someone, actually mentally go through the preparation steps to hurt them. Think about it. Plan out doing it. It shows in your eyes. If you look at someone and think deeply about the consistency of their skin as your knife slides through it, the slickness of your handle as their blood coats it, really feel it... That's a indescribable trait which I guarantee others will pick up on. This guy? He does that for a living. It's always up close and personal. You can abstract gunfire. You can't defer the responsibility of a kill with a knife. You own it, or it owns you. Figure out the mindset of someone who can do that.

Brother Oni

2015-04-10, 01:54 AM

The most effective intimidation tactic As a civilian is, when looking at someone, actually mentally go through the preparation steps to hurt them. Think about it. Plan out doing it. It shows in your eyes. If you look at someone and think deeply about the consistency of their skin as your knife slides through it, the slickness of your handle as their blood coats it, really feel it... That's a indescribable trait which I guarantee others will pick up on. This guy? He does that for a living. It's always up close and personal. You can abstract gunfire. You can't defer the responsibility of a kill with a knife. You own it, or it owns you. Figure out the mindset of someone who can do that.

This is known as 'sakki' in Japanese and is the 'energy associated with bloodlust'.

Whether or not it actually exists is a subject of some debate and the effectiveness of it in intimidation is even debated even more. The average male youth full of bravado is unlikely to pick up on it and even if they do, they'll probably take it as a challenge.

SiuiS

2015-04-10, 02:09 AM

Brother Oni

2015-04-10, 02:28 AM

True. Reaction to intimidation varies. But I believe from experience that it's a Thing, without comment on its effectiveness beyond its existence.

It's about fight, heart. You demonstrate your commitment, and if they're commitment is less than yours and there is avenue of escape, you take the fight out of them. The trick is, it's useful in conversation, not in fights. You have to drive that home before they're committed to escalation.

Real or not, it's a great trait for a character. The paychological posturing as well as physical. Having scared large and angry men away, though, I choose to believe it's a real thing. :smallsmile:

On a personal philosophy level, I wouldn't use it as it broadcasts your intentions. While I agree that showing greater comittment is a good tactic before it escalates to a fight, it also opens you up to provocation issues with law enforcement (not showing it doesn't mean you don't have it though).

On personal experience level, it may be your gender having an additional effect - in my experience, a man is less likely to back down against another man, particularly one that's perceived as 'weaker' (in my case shorter) or when they're drunk.

While we may have differing views on its effectiveness in intimidation, I agree that the confidence resulting from experience and psychological preparedness is visible and would be a good trait for a character as described by Palanan.

SiuiS

2015-04-10, 12:31 PM

I think you're missing the scale. Mostly because a drunk kid would have a harder time picking up on you planning his murder, but also because I don't believe you would shoot straight to murder for a drink kid.

But heck, maybe. We would have to both know and also dissect the motives of the respective folks. There's so many variables that becomes useless, so we deal with trends. My anecdote versus yours. :smallsmile:

Brother Oni

2015-04-10, 02:45 PM

I think you're missing the scale. Mostly because a drunk kid would have a harder time picking up on you planning his murder, but also because I don't believe you would shoot straight to murder for a drink kid.

Most definitely - I haven't been in anything as life threatening as what you've mentioned.

The only shooting I would do is with a bow and I don't want particularly to become an Arrow wannabe (not least because the lack of archery knowledge and general bow handling and care in that show drives me up the wall). :smalltongue:

TheThan

2015-04-10, 11:53 PM

True. Reaction to intimidation varies. But I believe from experience that it's a Thing, without comment on its effectiveness beyond its existence.

It's about fight, heart. You demonstrate your commitment, and if they're commitment is less than yours and there is avenue of escape, you take the fight out of them. The trick is, it's useful in conversation, not in fights. You have to drive that home before they're committed to escalation.

Real or not, it's a great trait for a character. The paychological posturing as well as physical. Having scared large and angry men away, though, I choose to believe it's a real thing. :smallsmile:

Oh yeah simply being willing to not back down or go in to begin with can make the other back down. I’ve learned that from personal experience with bullies. But like you said; being able to kill in a very personal manner is going to the next level as far as psychology is concerned.

However the best way to avoid a fight is to not get yourself into a position where a fight is likely. Personal defense begins long before a confrontation becomes imminent.

RandomNPC

2015-04-11, 10:19 PM

I'd like to start by saying that I've seen no advice here I'd label as "Bad" and that makes me smile. I even saw the first rule of knife fighting, everyone bleeds.

I'd like to restate what someone said about keeping your empty hand up, I learned it at 16 when I found a daggorhir group. A shot to the chest is lethal, a shot to the arm, well it sucks, but if it'll kill you at least you've got another moment of fight in you to drag them down with you.

Also, check google like someone said, there are all kinds of sharpening tools, and a whetstone actually takes a bit of work to get right. I've actually purchased a few other sharpening tools, because the whetstone takes more effort and work than the other things. Don't let things sit in your head about the way they used to do it, we invent new ways because they work better.

Some of the best knife fighters in the U.S. military have said in public interview: "If someone comes around a corner with a knife and demands something from me, I'm either giving it or running, there's no way to tell his level of skill just by looking at him, and my life isn't worth the money in my wallet."

Palanan

2015-04-12, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Brother Oni
…I agree that the confidence resulting from experience and psychological preparedness is visible and would be a good trait for a character as described by Palanan.

Interesting, something to consider.

As it happens, the character isn't used to thinking of herself as confident, at least not recently, so this is another layer to fold in.

Originally Posted by RandomNPC
Some of the best knife fighters in the U.S. military have said in public interview: "If someone comes around a corner with a knife and demands something from me, I'm either giving it or running, there's no way to tell his level of skill just by looking at him, and my life isn't worth the money in my wallet."

Do you have any reference on these interviews, or any information on these people in general? I'd be interested in seeing those interviews or reading transcripts, or simply knowing where in the "U.S. military" these individuals are active. Army Rangers, Navy SEALS?

SiuiS

2015-04-12, 01:43 PM

Do you have any reference on these interviews, or any information on these people in general? I'd be interested in seeing those interviews or reading transcripts, or simply knowing where in the "U.S. military" these individuals are active. Army Rangers, Navy SEALS?

It's common enough you're not going to get a singular citation. I could find for you knife combat seminar notes, probably, that were run by high/end military personel and who say such things. You'd have to cross reference whether they were really military or ex-military, whether they really said it, whether they really meant it, etc., but the fact that everyone who puts real, honest to god thought about what being within knife fight range entails says something like this is all you need.

Moving from hand to hand to a blade is a huge step. Suddenly, even winning the fight doesn't guarantee your survival. You punch the other guy first and harder, you win! They stop fighting, you have some bruises. Knife fight? You've got permanent damage. You could probably get it set or stitched back together, but the odds of being crippled by a knife are much higher than the odds of beig crippled by a punch.

Couple that with OODA, cost:benefit analysis, and the situation. Guy comes around a corner with a knife; he's in kill range. He says gimme your wallet; what do you do?

Why fight? Pride? The $50 in your $25 leather money wrap? Because you Have no avenue of escape? Walking away keeps you just as Alive and a lot more intact than winning a knife fight. It's simple practicality. Engage under optimal conditions, with a clear understanding of what's at stake and what your chances are.

TheThan

2015-04-12, 04:08 PM

Why fight? Pride? The $50 in your $25 leather money wrap? Because you Have no avenue of escape? Walking away keeps you just as Alive and a lot more intact than winning a knife fight. It's simple practicality. Engage under optimal conditions, with a clear understanding of what's at stake and what your chances are.

plus you're likely going to spend more on legal fees and be in a rather large legal battle because your pride wouldn't let go of a few bucks.

Brother Oni

2015-04-12, 05:52 PM

plus you're likely going to spend more on legal fees and be in a rather large legal battle because your pride wouldn't let go of a few bucks.

Or hospital fees. As mentioned earlier, in a knife fight, everybody bleeds.

TheThan

2015-04-12, 06:00 PM

Or and hospital fees. As mentioned earlier, in a knife fight, everybody bleeds.

fixed that for you
:smallbiggrin:

Jeff the Green

2015-04-12, 08:33 PM

Sharpen the knives regularly. If you make a point of saying, "He sharpens his knives," in the evening after any encounter, you've made the point.

And since sharpening them uses oil, you are also protecting them from the weather. You might add, "Due to the humidity, he leaves a very thin layer of oil on them when he's finished."

Even better, have him yell at/gently rebuke someone for not keeping their knives in good shape. If someone doesn't clean them before sheathing them or uses them inappropriately, they should correct them.

SiuiS

2015-04-12, 08:56 PM

Even better, have him yell at/gently rebuke someone for not keeping their knives in good shape. If someone doesn't clean them before sheathing them or uses them inappropriately, they should correct them.

Had this happen to me yesterday. Guy Was incredulous I use my buck knife on boxes. He was incredulous I use my buck knife on boxes immediately after me explaining its intentional, and that I have the buck knife and want it to dull so that I have a knife that's both worth sharpening, and cheap enough to be worth practicing sharpening on.

TheThan

2015-04-12, 09:25 PM

Hehehe I used to tear boxes down with my Swiss Army Knife (no, it won’t destroy the knife). The guy next to me was using his bare hands because he didn’t have a knife or a box cutter or anything.

I’m usually the guy that gets asked to loan out his knife or do some cutting for someone because not everyone carries a simple pocket knife. Seriously, they’re not heavy, and they make it so you don’t have to ask me to cut open something for you.
Real conversation:

Me: “so why don’t you get your own knife instead of always borrowing mine?”

Guy (trying to shine me on): “but if I did that; I wouldn’t have a reason to borrow your knife?”

Me: “so what if I wasn’t around?”

Guy: “but you are”

Me: “suppose I wasn’t, what would you do then?”

Guy: “I’d think of something”

Me: “see if you carried your own knife, you wouldn’t have to rely upon me to do something so simple, and you wouldn’t have to improvise and MacGyver up a solution for a problem that’s easily solved with a simple tool, that is so easy to carry.”

Guy: “oh well I never thought of that”

SiuiS

2015-04-13, 12:25 AM

Ruin, no. Dull? Definitely. Again though, that's why I'm doing it! :smalltongue:

I can't tear boces apart with my hands anymore. Not on that scale. I suspect I'm developing arthritis from all the hitting things I've done :<

Cristo Meyers

2015-04-13, 07:37 AM

I needed to replace my grandfather's old pocket knife a while back because the blade was coming loose. It woobles from side to side when it's unfolded (which reminds me, is there any way or place I can go to get that fixed? It's a cheap old pocket knife, but it was my grandfather's...)

When I bought the replacement pocket knife I carry now (a little, maybe 3 inch blade) the girl behind the counter at ACE looked at me like I was buying an automatic weapon. It would've been a little insulting if it hadn't been so funny. :smallbiggrin:

Clerk (mumbling): ...not sure what you'd need it for...

Me: Those ritual sacrifices aren't going to skin themselves!

razorback

2015-04-13, 01:06 PM

plus you're likely going to spend more on legal fees and be in a rather large legal battle because your pride wouldn't let go of a few bucks.

In another life I had a customer who had a motorcycle shop in Honolulu, Hawaii in an area notorious for the junkies. One day a guy comes in an walks up to the counter, pulls a knife out and told her to give her all the money in the register or he'd kill her. She pulls out a gun and tells him to bug off. He lunges, she shoots. Witnesses in the store confirm her story.
Fast forward several years and tens of thousands of dollars later in lawyer fees before she is acquitted of any charges. I was always under the impression that her biggest regret was either not giving him the money or not putting another one in him. So much time and energy wasted when she could have handed him a few hundred dollars and been done with it.

Why fight? Pride? The $50 in your $25 leather money wrap? Because you Have no avenue of escape? Walking away keeps you just as Alive and a lot more intact than winning a knife fight. It's simple practicality. Engage under optimal conditions, with a clear understanding of what's at stake and what your chances are.

Yes. It would take someone threatening my wife, son, a family member, etc to engage someone who pulled a knife. Is it worth $100? $1000? $10,000? Probably not when so many things can go wrong. You only engage when that is your only option.

SiuiS

2015-04-13, 01:12 PM

People are weird. Knives don't register as tools, mentally, but weapons. Which is weird because it's so much easier to nurder someone with a screwdriver or multitool than with a knife, if only because of gross trauma from the differing tool heads. A clean cut is easier to repair...

Really,those reactions say more about the other person than you.

For repair, what kind of fastening does it have? Usually, you open the screw or bolt holding it together (Older or more decorative knives have a plastic cover over this, you may be SOL...), and either insert a washer to stabilize the blade or simply tighten the system. Get something that bonds metal, like liquid Nails. Test out how tight versus loose you want the bolt to be – I like a looser bolt without blade wobble because it assists in one hand opening with a flock of the wrist – and then put the glue stuff on the bolt, tighten it to the appropriate level and let it set.

You could probably find someone to handle your knife, but I wouldn't know who. Try an antique store or classy pawn shop? Go in, explain your situation in person, tell them you're looking for a referral to someone who can delicately handle repairs on an heirloom knife that you still want to see use with.

Yes. It would take someone threatening my wife, son, a family member, etc to engage someone who pulled a knife. Is it worth $100? $1000? $10,000? Probably not when so many things can go wrong. You only engage when that is your only option.

Oh yeah, one hundred percent. Someone threatens my daughter i will tear their throat out with my teeth if I have to after making them sacrifice their knife in my guts. That's not something I'm letting anyone walk away from, regardless of how stupid my response is.

Cristo Meyers

2015-04-13, 06:37 PM

For repair, what kind of fastening does it have? Usually, you open the screw or bolt holding it together (Older or more decorative knives have a plastic cover over this, you may be SOL...), and either insert a washer to stabilize the blade or simply tighten the system. Get something that bonds metal, like liquid Nails. Test out how tight versus loose you want the bolt to be – I like a looser bolt without blade wobble because it assists in one hand opening with a flock of the wrist – and then put the glue stuff on the bolt, tighten it to the appropriate level and let it set.

You could probably find someone to handle your knife, but I wouldn't know who. Try an antique store or classy pawn shop? Go in, explain your situation in person, tell them you're looking for a referral to someone who can delicately handle repairs on an heirloom knife that you still want to see use with.

Yeah, the screws are covered. I could maybe work the covers off, but certainly not without damaging the knife.

Dang. Not unexpected, but still a little saddening.

On the upside, I guess that means it's back to my granddad's portal to the junk dimension (we found scythes in his garage, honest-to-God scythes. It was awesome)

People are weird. Knives don't register as tools, mentally, but weapons. Which is weird because it's so much easier to nurder someone with a screwdriver or multitool than with a knife, if only because of gross trauma from the differing tool heads. A clean cut is easier to repair...

Really,those reactions say more about the other person than you.

Social programming is a weird thing. Interesting, but weird.

TheThan

2015-04-13, 06:50 PM

Yeah, people get weird about guns and knives. People rarely have anything to fear about honest law abiding armed citizens, it’s the others that are the problem.

So yeah, what sort of pocket knife are we talking about?
Is it a slip joint? A lock back?
If you’re not sure a picture would help.

Cristo Meyers

2015-04-13, 07:28 PM

TheThan

2015-04-13, 08:34 PM

It looks like a buck 110 to me, an old one too (read: keeper) and those aren’t screws, those are pins. You’d need a hammer and a tap to knock them out. You could contact Buck and see if they can repair it, although you’ll have to ship it to them. I’ve no idea how much it’d cost but it’s definitely worth looking into.

in fact, here's their website: http://www.buckknives.com/

I'd shoot them an email asking about it; be sure to make mention that it's an heirloom knife that you'd rather not have replaced.

SiuiS

2015-04-14, 12:34 AM

It's a lockback:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c23/Cristomeyers/DSCF0395.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c23/Cristomeyers/DSCF0396.jpg

When it's completely unfolded the blade wiggles. Those goldish dots on the handle are the screws as near as I can tell. There's a little bit of an edge there, but I don't think I could get them out without messing up the knife itself.

Oh, man. That is a thing of beauty~
Than is right. Those are pins. I was thinking Swiss army style plastic covered handle. This... This is definitely above my pay grade. Do call someone at Buck. That's worth restoration.

To quote Jeff Foxworthy:

"...the thing is, southerners are as smart as anybody else in this country, our only problem is we just can't keep the most ignorant amongst us off the television."

Just replace Southerners with, well, any group, really.

I always amaze myself at how easy it is to get sucked into stuff like that. The idea that people with accents are summer than clearly articulate speakers. Or other things; a doctor with a valley-girl accent, once made me question for a moment if she was qualified to be a doctor. I was astounded that Ach a thought could slip in! Just goes to show how deep down that background stuff really is.