PDA

View Full Version : Mystic Theurge question.



Tyger
2007-04-14, 12:37 AM
Okay, I know that LogicNinja's guide to being the Batman says that the Mystic Theurge is vastly underpowered, but is that mostly due to teh fact that at low levels (say under 10) you are going to be outclassed by the other party members? After all, cheese aside, at level 7, you're still casting level 2 cleric and wizard spells as your high levels.

But what about level 12 starting characters? Wizard 3 / Cleric 3 / Mystic Theurge 6 gives you an effective caster level of 9 in both arenas. Still only level 5 spells, compared to the level 6 you could be casting if you were pure cleric or wizard. But that seems like a pretty nice tradeoff. Effectively 18 levels of caster, at level 12.

Especially if your party doesn't have any other casters at all.

Thoughts? Comments? Flames? :smallsmile:

Rigeld2
2007-04-14, 12:43 AM
Sure, youve got lots of spells. At a lower DC than normal, lower effectiveness than normal, and you still cant cast all of them every day (barring endurance campaigns).

Its generally never a great idea to be a MT type class, and in any case its not a good idea to be a MT type when youre the only caster. Just go straight cleric or some other divine build, but dont lose caster levels.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-04-14, 12:44 AM
Well, there's the fact you'll only get 1 level 9 spell per day from the Wizard, and only 1+1 from the Cleric at level 20, and none before then.

Assassinfox
2007-04-14, 12:45 AM
Well, if your party literally has no other casters, then go for it.

The reasoning behind the "Mystic Theurge = Lose" mentality is that even with all that magic at your disposal, you're only casting one spell per round. One weaker spell per round, to be exact. Apparently, getting those 9th level spells is just THAT important.

Rigeld2
2007-04-14, 12:46 AM
Well, if your party literally has no other casters, then go for it.
And be behind both in healing AND other useful spells... instead of keeping the party up on at least one of them. Great idea, I guess this is why bards rock so hard!

Douglas
2007-04-14, 12:47 AM
Any way you look at it, your highest level spells as a Mystic Theurge will be less powerful than the highest level spells of a single class caster and the non-Theurge will have more spells of your highest level than you do. Even at the same spell level, your spells will be weaker because your caster level is lower. That part can be compensated for with a feat, but the non-theurge can use that same feat on something else so it just changes that advantage to something else.

Pretty much no matter what you do, Mystic Theurge is trading power for versatility. The problem is that wizards and clerics are versatile enough already, so you're giving up power to gain something that (usually) doesn't really matter very much. The big exception to this is when you pair it with something like Ur Priest, but that's a bit cheesy.

Jasdoif
2007-04-14, 12:50 AM
Well, there's the fact you'll only get 1 level 9 spell per day from the Wizard, and only 1+1 from the Cleric at level 20, and none before then.It's worse: you have to pick one of those. Remember, you can only take ten levels of theurge pre-epic, you'll have to pick either arcane or divine for those last four levels.

TheOOB
2007-04-14, 01:11 AM
Full spellcasters rarely ever run out of spells, especially since a competent arcane caster can make most encounters only last a couple of rounds at the most. It is far more important to have powerful spells that will end an encounter quickly then more spells to last you through a longer encounter that you could have ended quickly with higher level higher caster level non MAD spells.

And yes, more 9th level spells really are worth it, a 9th level spell can kill an entire group of enemies at once, give you extra turns, heal your entire party hundreads of hp, summon a monster more powerful then yourself, turn any creature with a mind into your slave, and even alter the fabric of reality. I don't know about you, but theres not much I wouldn't give up for an extra time stop in a day.

Tyger
2007-04-14, 07:52 AM
Ahhh. Gotcha.

I think a lot of the argument here may be moot in the particular situation we're envisioning though, as this is likely a one-shot game at level 12. Thus there's no concern with regard to reaching level 9 spells, or what choices to make with upper levels.

I can see the lower DCs being an issue though. Only time will tell what the player decides to do.

And yes, this character will be the only real caster. Its shaping up to be a Warblade/rogue/assassin, a Bard(not firmed up yet what he's doing), a thug (likely a fighter or warblade) and this character. So having both arcane spells for offence and some cleric healing will be an asset.

Douglas
2007-04-14, 08:23 AM
It's not just 9th level spells, it's 8th level spells, 7th level spells, 6th level spells, etc. No matter what level you're at your highest level spell is lower than it could be or (for 9th level) has fewer uses per day, and any level-based variables (like damage dice and SR penetration) are three levels behind. However, healing is fairly critical and there are a number of very useful things wizards can do that aren't on the cleric spell list, so having at least some of both may be better than having nothing at all for one of them.

Ramza00
2007-04-14, 08:40 AM
Being 3 spell levels behind is just not worth it, being 2 lvls behind is debatable, being 1 lvl behind is okay if the return is anything good :smallwink:

Note the Tome of Battle, Incarnum, even the Binder dual classes are better than Mystic Theurge for even if you are the same level behind (which you aren't) these other forms of magic give a lot of passive benefits to the caster or they give abilities that spells don't replicate.

Ramza00
2007-04-14, 08:42 AM
Just asking but are you familiar with the early entry tricks? Precocious Apprentice+Versatile Spellcaster (you got to have both), sanctum spell, earth spell, or the best one Improved Sigil Krau?

(Note alot of DMs don't like Earth Spell and Sanctum Spell for those heightened spells are environment related, Improved Sigil Krau doesn't have that problem)

Rama_Lei
2007-04-14, 08:47 AM
There is a feat that gives you a plus 4 caster level for one spell casting class. Can't remember what it's called.

Ramza00
2007-04-14, 08:49 AM
Practiced Spellcaster.

Krellen
2007-04-14, 09:47 AM
There is a feat that gives you a plus 4 caster level for one spell casting class. Can't remember what it's called.
It doesn't increase your spells per day, spells known, or maximum spell level, however.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-14, 10:13 AM
You'd also have to take it twice.

Talya
2007-04-14, 10:18 AM
A sorceror/cleric mystic theurge is probably better than a pure sorceror. You can pick your sorceror spells based on what you can't duplicate through cleric, or stuff you'd like to be able to have available at any time without preparation, while still having the versatility of clerical spells.

In pure hack and slash campaigns, Mystic Theurge is weaker. But if your DM makes you think, and requires versatility, and you actually don't spend most of your time rolling combat dice, Mystic Theurge is likely a better choice. Feats like "Practiced Spellcasting" get rid of much of the penalty involved, too, but don't make up for your lack of higher level spells.

There's a witch PRC in a ravenloft book "Secrets of the Dread Realms" published by White Wolf that raises divine and arcane spellcasting simultaneously, and is much better than the Mystic Theurge. I'd look it up if you are considering a combination divine/arcane class. You will never be as good as two pure spellcasters of each type, but you can conceivably be more useful than either one of them alone.

Kurobara
2007-04-14, 11:17 AM
Also, Mystic Theurge levels help get to 9-th level spells on both sides in an Arcane Hierophant build. Which yeah, still has a lot of the dual-caster build problems, obviously, but at least Arcane Hierophant has some actual class features...

Person_Man
2007-04-14, 09:55 PM
Think of it as a math problem.

The average D&D game has about 4 encounters per game day.

The average D&D combat involving at least one full caster rarely lasts more then 5ish rounds.

So assuming you cast a spell every round of combat, the average full caster will cast 20ish spells per game day. And if for some reason you need to go beyond that, you can usually use Rope Trick or Teleport or whatever to retreat, sleep, and come back with more spells.

Thus, you rarely have use for more then 20ish spell slots, and you want those spells to be as powerful as possible.

Furthermore, the primary source of serious magical power is metamagic. And in order to fuel metamagic, you need the highest level slots possible.

A MT has way more spell slots then it will ever use in an average game days. It will always be at least 3 levels behind other casters. And it has a much harder time fueling metamagic.

And as a general rule, parties do best when you divide up niches, respect each others niches, and optimize your build to handle your niches. That way everyone is good at what they do, no one steps into anyone else's spotlight, and no one has to play a mediocre build like the MT.

Assassinfox
2007-04-14, 09:59 PM
Bottom Line:

If YOU really want to be a mystic theurge, then to hell with optimization.

Autarch
2007-04-14, 10:30 PM
Bottom Line:

If YOU really want to be a mystic theurge, then to hell with optimization.
I couldn't agree more, Assassinfox. :smallbiggrin: You have my congratulations for having the most common sense of anyone here. I typed up a huge paragraph containing my reasonings for why the Mystic Theurge really is useful, but with one sentence you've made a far better argument for the class than my endless verbosity, making it pointless for me to even bother posting everything I originally intended to.

Ramza00
2007-04-14, 10:45 PM
Bottom Line:

If YOU really want to be a mystic theurge, then to hell with optimization.
Disagree you can optimized a mystic theurge if you know what you are doing. You will still be a generalist and a specialist can kick your ass no matter what, regardless you can be a good generalist instead of just a sucky one. For example this build.

In sum you can optimize anything, doesn't make it good though :smallwink:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11652664

I agree with early entries that go against the RAI (or use lots of spat books) Fochlucan Lyrist can be pretty good. (More or less you have to be in FR but there are other tricks in the link below)

Bard 1/Archivist 1/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 7/Fochlucan Lyrist 10

Bardic Music and Knowledge of 11th lvl Bard
Casts Archivist and Wizard at 18th lvl
15 BAB if using partials
Good Skillpoints (104+23*Int Skillpoints and since you have a high int due to casting=a lot of skillpoints)

Here is how you get into Fochlucan Lyrist easily
Bardic Tutealge (Region option for languages, you were raised in a bardic college/taught by a bard, allows you to get language druidic. Champions of Valor, preview of this option located here)
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20051104a
Get evasion by the Shadowalker template in Unapproachable East (+1LA buy it off if you can), or the shape soulmeld option
Take Able Learner at lvl 1 to keep your skills up
Take Improved Sigil (Krau) to get early entry (treat as many spells as you have sigils for as influenced by the heighten spell metamagic at no increase of casting time and it still occupies the old slot, thus 2nd lvl spells with the 1st lvl slot)

More ideas on early entry here.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=377248

Also forgot to mention
Since making a prepared spell list of both an Archivist and Wizard would be a headache, thus doing 2 spontaneous casters may be better in your mind such as the

Bard 1/Sorcerer 1/Shugenja 1/Mystic Theurge 7/Fochlucan Lyrist 10

Just to compare the previous two builds and total number of spells vs the base class. Note if there is a "negative number" that means the base class has more spells of that level than the hybrid mystic theurge/Fochlucan Lyrist build, a positive numbe and the Fochlucan Lyrist has the more spells of that level


http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/1458/flyristty9.jpg

Autarch
2007-04-14, 10:57 PM
Disagree you can optimized a mystic theurge if you know what you are doing. You will still be a generalist and a specialist can kick your ass no matter what, regardless you can be a good generalist instead of just a sucky one. For example this build.

I don't disagree, necessarily, but I would like to point out that if you redefine 'optimized', the mystic theurge can be quite powerful. Try making a character who excels at defending her party from magical and physical harm, as well as healing them and making them stronger in battle. Just because you aren't the one killing all the enemies doesn't mean you aren't as useful or powerful. If your allies cannot be harmed by what is attacking them, you've effectively killed the enemy in one turn by neutralizing the threat that they posed. A pure wizard or pure cleric just doesn't have a wide enough range of spells to fill that role completely. A cleric has the healing, but doesn't have much in the way of defense against magic, and vise versa. Also, for this sort of spellcaster, its better to be able to cast a whole bunch of the very useful lower level spells than a couple powerful high level spells.

...the above is extremely opinionated, of course. but that just brings us back to the idea of: if you want to blast the heck out of your enemies, take a pure casting class. If you want to do something a bit different, mystic theurge might be the way to go.

kamikasei
2007-04-14, 11:07 PM
Autarch, the popular opinion on these boards is that "blasting" people is a waste of time for either wizards or clerics, and that trying to kill (rather than render ineffective) enemies by yourself is a poor use of spells when you're in a party. That doesn't change the fact that a mystic theurge will not be as good at any of the things he might want to do as would an equal-level wizard or cleric. It comes down to the idea that trying to be two things at once, and thus being worse at both of them than your enemies, is a bad idea.

Laesin
2007-04-14, 11:22 PM
However epic play changes things, a 5 cleric/5 wizard/ 15 MT has his level 9 spells and is only five CL behind a pure caster, something that i'm sure someone on the charop boards can compensate for. Good luck if you're playing through those levels but its a pretty good build if you're starting in the 20s.

Ramza00
2007-04-14, 11:29 PM
I don't disagree, necessarily, but I would like to point out that if you redefine 'optimized', the mystic theurge can be quite powerful. Try making a character who excels at defending her party from magical and physical harm, as well as healing them and making them stronger in battle.

Well I define optimized as being the best at whatever nieche you are trying to make. I don't define optimized as being the most powerful or useful for the party, I don't define optimized as able to solo encounters of your CR. I just define optimize as taking a class natural strengths and trying to maximize those strengths and mitigating/minimizing its weaknesses.

For example a buffer, a bard, dragon shaman, or marshal may not be the best character, but you can easily take its strengths and maximize them so they can be advantageous to the party. Likewise to the mystic theurge, you can take its strengths and maximize them.

A mystic theurge strengths is that it has dual casting and thus can have a very varied spell list with losts of slots.
A mystic theurge weaknesses are mostly inherent in how you qualify for the prc. It usually takes 3 levels to get in, thus an early entry trick that only makes you 1 lvl behind or 2 lvls behind will remedy most of the weaknesses. The other weaknesses of dual casting stats, and limited actions per round can be remedied by choosing classes that have the same stat, and having a large mixture of spells. A mystic theurge should be focusing a lot of its slots on permanent buffing the party members out of battle with long duration spells to take advantage of all its spell slots but limited actions per round.


Of course a specialist arcanist or specialist divine may still be more useful to an encounter due to specialization, but a mystic theuge if designed correctly can be a jack of all trades. Note the first rule with MTs is always getting into the class a lot earlier or using a faster progression class.

Dervag
2007-04-15, 12:02 AM
Think of it as a math problem.

The average D&D game has about 4 encounters per game day.

The average D&D combat involving at least one full caster rarely lasts more then 5ish rounds.Yes, and then somebody has to cast the healing spells. If there's no divine caster handy, then the mystic theurge is your go-to guy for this.

An Xth level mystic theurge will never be as capable as an Xth level wizard and an Xth level cleric working together. And they will never be as good an arcanist as an Xth level wizard, nor will they ever be as good a divinist as an Xth level cleric.

But I think they're better than having an Xth level wizard and no cleric or an Xth level cleric and no wizard. Which is what this group is looking at, unless somebody else 'gets stuck' playing a caster that they don't want to play.


Autarch, the popular opinion on these boards is that "blasting" people is a waste of time for either wizards or clerics, and that trying to kill (rather than render ineffective) enemies by yourself is a poor use of spells when you're in a party.This is kind of beside the point. The Mystic Theurge can use his wizard spells for whatever he wants. He's still harming enemies via magic when he renders them ineffective.


That doesn't change the fact that a mystic theurge will not be as good at any of the things he might want to do as would an equal-level wizard or cleric. It comes down to the idea that trying to be two things at once, and thus being worse at both of them than your enemies, is a bad idea.Granted. If two parties, one with a mystic theurge and three noncasters, and one with a cleric, a wizard, and two noncasters go up against each other, the first party is at a disadvantage.

But what if both parties have three noncasters, while one party has a mystic theurge and the other has a cleric or a wizard? That's the actual situation the original post is talking about, and no amount of argument about why mystic theurges are suboptimal can get around it.

No one caster can ever be as effective as two casters. But having one caster that can do either caster's job (to a limited degree) isn't clearly worse than having one caster that can do one job well and the other job not at all.

Ramza00
2007-04-15, 12:10 AM
Yes, and then somebody has to cast the healing spells. If there's no divine caster handy, then the mystic theurge is your go-to guy for this.

An Xth level mystic theurge will never be as capable as an Xth level wizard and an Xth level cleric working together. And they will never be as good an arcanist as an Xth level wizard, nor will they ever be as good a divinist as an Xth level cleric.

But I think they're better than having an Xth level wizard and no cleric or an Xth level cleric and no wizard. Which is what this group is looking at, unless somebody else 'gets stuck' playing a caster that they don't want to play.

If you are in such a party where you can't fufill the three rolls your DM should seriously allow you to use leadership, and a cohort who is 2 lvls behind will usually be better than a mystic theurge.

Yogi
2007-04-15, 12:45 AM
Would the Mystic Theurge be more effective in a military organization, where being able to cast lots of spells on lots of troops be a significant advantage?

Assassinfox
2007-04-15, 12:54 AM
I think Mystic Theurge needs some extra "perks" like the other combo-PrCs based on it, like Arcane Hierophant or Ultimate Magus.

An ability to cast a divine and an arcane spell in one turn would certainly help.

Rigeld2
2007-04-15, 10:37 AM
However epic play changes things, a 5 cleric/5 wizard/ 15 MT has his level 9 spells and is only five CL behind a pure caster, something that i'm sure someone on the charop boards can compensate for. Good luck if you're playing through those levels but its a pretty good build if you're starting in the 20s.
And its outclassed by a million times by a Wizard 21, Cleric 21, or any other caster 21. Epic spells win epic, and you have to be able to cast 9th level spells to get them.


But what if both parties have three noncasters, while one party has a mystic theurge and the other has a cleric or a wizard? That's the actual situation the original post is talking about, and no amount of argument about why mystic theurges are suboptimal can get around it.
The party with the straight Cleric is at an advantage. If you have to have a cleric for in combat healing, then thats all your MT is going to do... with lower CL spells, and not using his Wizard side at all.

Play a Cleric with the Magic domain. Youre better off than a MT.

Assassinfox
2007-04-15, 11:22 AM
* wonders how this went from "Do What You Want" back to "Mystic Theurge sucks on things!" *

Rigeld2
2007-04-15, 11:29 AM
* wonders how this went from "Do What You Want" back to "Mystic Theurge sucks on things!" *
It was never really do what you want... the OP said, basically, "is the MT really underpowered?" and people are trying to show why yes... yes it is.

Sure, you can always do what you want. Noone here will try and stop you (unless youre taking Monkey Grip). That doesnt give you the right to say youre not underpowered.

PaladinBoy
2007-04-15, 11:45 AM
I don't generally care whether I'm underpowered or not. I prefer to say that I'm having fun.

I would say that if the OP wants to do a MT, he should. I think whether or not it's underpowered will depend on the situation. That huge number of spells will look much nicer if the DM decides to take advantage of the fact that his players can go longer without rest.

Person_Man
2007-04-15, 11:53 AM
Yes, and then somebody has to cast the healing spells. If there's no divine caster handy, then the mystic theurge is your go-to guy for this.

Really? Because if no one in my group wants to play a divine caster, we just retreat then rest until we're healed. If we're in a rush, we always have some wands of Cure Light Wounds and someone with ranks in UMD handy. At 750gp for 50 charges, on average just under 3 gp per hit point healed. Or we just pay an NPC cleric hireling to follow us around. Or if you don't want to pay for one, anyone can use a feat and get Leadership.


So if you want to play a MT for fluff reasons, I don't argue with you. If you get a better roleplaying experience out of something, go for it.

But there is really no crunch reason to play a MT. A normal Cleric or a normal Wizard would be more powerful. If your party desperately needs a Cleric but no one wants to play one, you can use magic items, hire a Cleric, or just play a Wizard or Sorcerer with the Leadership feat.

Ramza00
2007-04-15, 11:55 AM
I would say that if the OP wants to do a MT, he should. I think whether or not it's underpowered will depend on the situation. That huge number of spells will look much nicer if the DM decides to take advantage of the fact that his players can go longer without rest.

I agree with that. I also would say there are ways to optimize a mystic theurge (I have listed some in the previous parts of the post). Regardless you can have fun with an unoptimized mystic theurge, and you can have fun with an optimized one.

Wonders if there was a second small additional proof to the Stormwind Fallacy that you can have fun playing optimized characters and you can have fun playing nonoptimized characters, optimization is not related to fun quotient.

Tyger
2007-04-15, 02:00 PM
Well, in this case the OP (me) is the DM, and one of the players in an impending single shot game is considering the MT as a character. I had read that they were underpowered, and the stats seem to demonstrate that, but I wanted to discuss it in the context of this specific situation, i.e. he's the only caster in the group at all. No cleric and no wizard. Maybe a bard.

I tend to agree that while he may not be the most optimized character, he can certainly fill both roles relatively well. I'm giving the characters a 30 point build, so they can have both high Wis and high Int for this role, so the number of spells per day shouldn't be too much of an issue. Sure, he won't be casting level 6 spells (as he would if he was pure one or the other) but he'll be casting level 5s in both classes, so I think that will offset it quite a bit.

PnP Fan
2007-04-15, 02:09 PM
A couple of options. . .
It sounds like the real problem is that you have a party where only one player is willing to play a caster, and you are concerned about filling both the Divine and Arcane caster slots.
MT is one way to do this, and is a viable build. You will be sacrificing a level's worth of both Arcane and Divine spells, but given the general uber-ness of casters, this really shouldn't be that big of a deal, especially for a one-shot adventure. Even if you find that it doesn't work, it's not like you'll have to live with the decision for the next year. If you go down this route, I do recommend getting the Practiced Spellcaster feat, probably for your arcane side, since so many of those spells are dependant on your CL. Also, take a few rounds before combat to cast your cleric buffs and whatnot, that way you can utilize your spells outside of combat. That increases your spell usage to maybe 7 or 8 spells per combat instead of the aforementioned 3-5.
Another option is to take the leadership feat, make your primary character a full caster, and the cohort character a full caster as well. You'll have to sack a feat to do it, but you'd be doing that with MT anyway, plus you'll only lose 2 caster levels of one class on the cohort (if your leadership level is decent), instead of 2 caster levels in both classes with a MT build. Some GMs don't like Leadership though. I think this build would work best with either Favored Soul or Sorcerer as one of your class options, because of the dependancy on Charisma for Leadership.
Another option to cover both flavors of spells is to only take a level or two of one type of caster, then fill the rest of your levels with your preferred caster type. Then spend your WBL cash on magic items to compensate for your lower caster level. This is a less than optimal choice, I think, but if you only want a heal-bot out of your cleric, it can fit the billet.

Bottom line though, as others have said. . . play what you want to play.

Zagreen
2007-04-15, 02:11 PM
The main problem isn't really anything inherently bad about the mystic theurge (although it does have some inherent problems), it's really just the fact that your players have only 1 spellcaster between them. They're going to hit a few snags regardless of whether that 1 spellcaster is a cleric, wizard, or mystic theurge. If he wants to play mystic theurge and the party happens to get TPKed or something because they don't have high enough level spells, you can't really blame the mystic theurge alone for a problem with the composition of the whole party.

Rigeld2
2007-04-15, 02:18 PM
Cleric with the Magic domain can use scrolls, wands, etc, as if he was a mage of level 6 (at level 12). Not a horrible deal, and you can use basically most of the spells youd "think" you need.

Talya
2007-04-15, 02:24 PM
Oh yes, good call Rigeld, that reminds me, in Forgotten Realms, one of Mystra's domains (Spell) has the domain spell "Anyspell" (and Greater Anyspell), along with Limited Wish. Those three will give a cleric a good bit of Arcane flexibility.

Ramza00
2007-04-15, 02:27 PM
Cleric as the PC
Sorcerer as the Cohort.

Cleric takes Leadership Feat, gets Sorcerer 2 lvl behind him. Cleric then takes Improved Cohort from Heroes of Battle now Sorcerer is 1 lvl behind them.

Advising Sorcerer is due to the fact they are easier to play thus less bookwork, and the fact you don't pay for your spells known.

Teilos
2007-04-15, 03:08 PM
I played a houseruled Mystic Theurge in 3.0 from level 10 till level 19. So my analysis might only partially fit into 3.5, because of haste and other issues. Also my houseruled mystic theurge had to take 4/4 before becoming mystic theurge.

My group were 3 people with changing DM job. We had one arcane and one divine caster besides me, so I always filled the role of the missing one. My Character was never the most powerfull. But it was definately always the most independent.

Without my broad variety of special effects many adventures would have been much harder. Sometimes it can be realy handy to cast just tons of scryings and greater scryings to assess a situation or teleport all day (though your DM might not always like it). The number of buffs you can add to your char before teleporting in front of the enemy is also quite impressive. MT is good because it allows a huge variety outside of battle. It is not good because it gives you the best save or die spell asap.

Seeing the suggestions here you can be level 1/2 before becoming mystic theurge. Then you progress 10 levels of mystic theurge so you reach a max spell level of 6(5 if spontaneous caster) for your lesser caster class and you gain levels for your primary one with only one level missing progression. The gained versatility is definatly worth it in my opinion.

I d rather be cleric 19 and wizard 11 than a pure cleric 20 (ofc there are a few more issues what you loose: E.g. you will have only a greate attribute for one of the classes and so on, but the second caster class is only for utility anyway).

EDIT: Just to render me insane in the point of view of some of you:
I might even take one level rogue at first level and go 1/1/1 before mystic theurge. Just to get a nice variety of skills at a basic level. My point is the MT should be accounted for the great possibilities in gaming and not for its best spells.

SMDVogrin
2007-04-15, 04:41 PM
And its outclassed by a million times by a Wizard 21, Cleric 21, or any other caster 21. Epic spells win epic, and you have to be able to cast 9th level spells to get them.

Which the build above can do at Level 22 - so they get epic spellcasting one level later than the non-MT. Or they can anticipate this, and build as a Wiz7/Clr3/MT10+, and be able to get Epic Spellcasting at level 21 just like you (just have to wait a couple extra levels for those 9th lvl cleric spells).

Moreover, the argument that Epic spells win epic is an argument FOR Mystic Theurge, because it means that the MT is going to end up meeting multiple pre-reqs, and have more epic spells per day than the straight Wiz20+.

"If you meet more than one set of prerequisites, the limit on the number of spells you may cast per day is cumulative."

So the MT spellcaster gets Know(Arcana)/10 epic slots, then gets Know(religion)(or Know(nature))/10 MORE epic slots.

Ramza00
2007-04-15, 05:17 PM
Which the build above can do at Level 22 - so they get epic spellcasting one level later than the non-MT. Or they can anticipate this, and build as a Wiz7/Clr3/MT10+, and be able to get Epic Spellcasting at level 21 just like you (just have to wait a couple extra levels for those 9th lvl cleric spells).

Moreover, the argument that Epic spells win epic is an argument FOR Mystic Theurge, because it means that the MT is going to end up meeting multiple pre-reqs, and have more epic spells per day than the straight Wiz20+.

"If you meet more than one set of prerequisites, the limit on the number of spells you may cast per day is cumulative."

So the MT spellcaster gets Know(Arcana)/10 epic slots, then gets Know(religion)(or Know(nature))/10 MORE epic slots.

Yes but the epic "offical" mystic theurge is seriously gimped its gets an epic feat every 6 levels and it alternates its caster level/spells known with arcane on odds and divine on evens. Most people on the epic boards and dice freaks feel this goes too far and thus they retain the epic bonus feat every six levels but your arcane and divine progress every level like normal mystic theurge.

Thus while you may have twice as many epic spell slots, you get 1/2 the number of epic bonus feats. Epic bonus feats are where it is at in epic. You can't make a good effective effective spell that works in battle, instead epic spells slots are for buffs and world changing rituals. Thus a cleric 21 or wizard 21 is still better in battle than a Mystic Theurge and it can still do all the same epic spells as an epic MT due to how epic spellcasting works.

Thus there is no real advantage of MT in epic. Perhaps when you combine MT with another dual casting prc such as Arcane Hierophant or Fochulan Lyrist but if you are allowing that you have no good reason why a pure arcane or pure divine can't prestige out and there are much better prestige classes for the single caster than you can get with the dual caster.

Elurindel
2007-04-15, 05:43 PM
At higher levels, I see nothing wrong with Mystic Theurge. Sure, your familiar takes a hit, and you lose your turning ability, but then there's always Practiced Spellcaster, which would work for both classes, and the fact that you have such a wide variety of spells make it unlikely that you'll be caught unprepared. Plus, in a straight fight against another caster, taking Anti-magic field would always give you an edge.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-15, 06:14 PM
The only time MT is worth it is if you are playing a highlevel game and use extreme cheese to get in early.

To get in at level 3 do the following:

Take the Illumian race from Races of Destiny, choose the krau sigil as one of your racial abilities.

Start off with this Cleric 1/Wizard 1

now for feats at first level take the Improved Power Sigil Krau feat (also in Races of Destiny) this feat allows you to choose any 2 spells and from that point on they are cast at 1 spell level higher than their actual level. You can change the spells selected at anytime you gain new spells. So when you gain that wizard level choose 1 of the arcane spells along with 1 of your divine spells. Now you can cast 2nd level arcane and divine spells.

------------------
So use the above trick and you are only 1 level behind on spells.
Wizard 1 / Cleric 1 / MT 10 / Wizard 3 / Archmage 5

At level 20 you cast as a level 19 wizard and as a level 11 cleric. So 9th level wizard spells and 6th level cleric spells. The only problem is that it costs most of your feats.

Ted_Stryker
2007-04-15, 06:50 PM
One thing I could see doing with an MT at 12th level is to be able to cast both Divine Power and Righteous Might with the Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) feat in conjunction with some Arcane Striking. That's pretty much a self-buffing melee build, though, although after combat the character would be able to dispense healing.

Jasdoif
2007-04-15, 10:38 PM
If we're in a rush, we always have some wands of Cure Light Wounds and someone with ranks in UMD handy. At 750gp for 50 charges, on average just under 3 gp per hit point healed.Yeah, that's a great way to get healing. Cure light wounds appears on the bard, cleric, druid, paladin and ranger spell list (and probably some non-core lists as well); if you have any one of those classes in your party they can use that wand, even if they can't actually cast the spell themselves.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-04-16, 08:03 AM
I would recommend Wizard 1 / Cleric (or even, better, archivist: learn any spell!) X instead, if you use alternative source spell.

Valairn
2007-04-16, 08:58 AM
Has anyone thought of making a PrC that requires mystic theurge levels and works kind of like and archmage while continuing the caster progression?

The Mormegil
2007-04-16, 10:57 AM
Bard1/Fighter1/Wu jen3/Ur Priest(from CD)2/Mystic Theurge3/Firefox(from CAr)2/Mystic Theurge5/Archmage3

Read this well, make your counts, then scream...

Mystic Theurge is underpowered? What?

And on next level, you got 4 epic spells per day.

Anyway, has anyone got a +0 level modifier undead? Something like: You are now an undead, no other things gained? 'Cause that'll be cute. And powerful.

Ramza00
2007-04-16, 11:02 AM
Has anyone thought of making a PrC that requires mystic theurge levels and works kind of like and archmage while continuing the caster progression?
If you break out the homebrew box, you might as well rewrite the mystic theurge in the first place.

kamikasei
2007-04-16, 11:03 AM
Bard1/Fighter1/Wu jen3/Ur Priest(from CD)2/Mystic Theurge3/Firefox(from CAr)2/Mystic Theurge5/Archmage3

Firefox?


Anyway, has anyone got a +0 level modifier undead? Something like: You are now an undead, no other things gained? 'Cause that'll be cute. And powerful.

The Necropolitan template from Libris Mortis is just that. You lose a level and 1000xp to become a 0-LA undead.

Mesiolan
2007-04-16, 11:51 AM
I think it depends. On the players, the adventures/campaigns, and so on. If you are facing only creatures with a very high CR, a MT is less valuable than a full caster. If you are facing large numbers of mooks, and many encounters a day, the MT can be VERY valuable.

We are playing Red Hand of Doom, and our party faces encounters with many mooks. Being 4 PC lv. 8, we were attacked by fifty foes during a single encounter, with 42 x CR 1 and 1x CR 9. The ELC calculator said "overpowering". But the party prevailed, thanks to the large number of spells my theurge had.

Granted, he's not a MT, but a psychic theurge (cleric/psion).

At 9th level I'm playing a Psi 1/Cle 3/Psi 2/ Psychic Theurge 3, with access to healing domain, 2x practiced feats, fullplate and kinetic powers. He manifests up to seven cones of fire for 9d6+18 (save DC 21 for half) in a row, before he patches up the party for a total of up to 318 HP/day (if I put every CLE-spell into cures, this is the average HP/day). The CSW does 3d8+16 HP, thanks to Augment Healing.

Sure, a full caster can do better. I have access to 3rd level spells and powers only. But the output is hardly "weak" for 9th level.

Advice?

Add a few "swift" or "immediate" spells to your list to get more output. Try to get access to feats/spells/items, which somehow allow more actions each round. Look into the Magic Item Compendium, there are some.

Take the "practiced" feats for both classes, and put your wealth into the ability scores to prevent MAD.

Decide for one class to do the offensive spells. Increase the DC on that class with feats and items. Put as much into this as possible.

Person_Man
2007-04-16, 12:38 PM
Well if you wanted to, you could play a:

Wizard/Ur Priest/MT

Cleric/Nar Demonbinder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030502a&page=2)/MT

Cleric/Bard/Sublime Chord/MT

Cleric/Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1)/MT

Any of these would certainly make the MT playable, depending upon the ECL and the exact build. Heck, a Kobold Sorcerer/Ur Priest/MT using Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) won't have to give up ANY Sorcerer caster levels. But once you start screwing with Ur Priest or similar PrC with a fast spell progression, its very easy for you to break the game in the other direction.

Ramza00
2007-04-16, 12:41 PM
Chameleon doesn't give you "real spellcasting" and thus can't use Mystic Theurge with him.

Person_Man
2007-04-16, 12:45 PM
Chameleon doesn't give you "real spellcasting" and thus can't use Mystic Theurge with him.

Please explain.

You get the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells. I don't see anything in the text that says it isn't "real" or can't be used to qualify for other PrC.

Darion
2007-04-16, 12:56 PM
Please explain.

You get the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells. I don't see anything in the text that says it isn't "real" or can't be used to qualify for other PrC.

Then you need to read it more closely. Its under the "Class features" header that applies to all the Chameleon abilities and is one of the reasons the PrC remains sane (though strong).

"You canít use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus,
ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a
feat, prestige class, or other option."

Ramza00
2007-04-16, 12:56 PM
Class Features

The chameleon's class features allow you to adopt a variety of roles, from armored warrior to spellcaster to sneaky rogue.



You can't use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option. You can use your bonus feat to qualify for such options, but if you change the feat, you suffer the normal drawbacks for no longer meeting a prerequisite or requirement.

The spellcasting you gain comes from your aptiude focus.

Ramza00
2007-04-16, 12:57 PM
Damn ninjaed O^

Telonius
2007-04-16, 01:11 PM
If you break out the homebrew box, you might as well rewrite the mystic theurge in the first place.

My DM and I are putting something like that together for an Eberron campaign. My DM posted it in homebrew, here (http://www.giantitp.com//forums/showthread.php?p=2367179#post2367179). It's basically a cleric/artificer theurge. I posted my version of it a few posts up from his. Mine's a little closer to the traditional Mystic Theurge, but I like his better.

Person_Man
2007-04-16, 03:03 PM
The spellcasting you gain comes from your aptiude focus.

D'oh!

Serves me right for reading the Aptitude Focus description but not the rest of the class description.

JaronK
2007-04-16, 03:24 PM
If you want to do the "cast everything" deal with the same flavor as the MT, but still be able to cast with full levels, play an Archivist, and take a Warlock cohort. The warlock can make divine scrolls of every spell in the game, and then you can scribe them into your prayer book. Same flexibility, but now you can cast higher level spells.

JaronK