Easiest Possible Build

[Kesnit]

I play in a long-standing gaming group. A few months ago, we started a 3.5 campaign. All but one of the players has played 3.5 before. Most aren't optimizers, but we know the rules. Sadly, the one remaining player is, well, clueless. (We'll call him J.) His first character (built by another player) was an Orge Fighter using a greatsword with a custom item that allowed him (and all his stuff) to become Medium at-will. It worked OK, but he kept struggling with using Power Attack. (He could never keep track of how much he added to his damage if he took so much out of attack.) Sadly, that PC died in an encounter. His second PC was a Druid with a set spell list. (Technically he had the whole list, but the player who built the Druid also made pre-set lists for J to use, based on the situation.) J did OK, but was prone to overkill on his spells. (He wanted to cast Call Lightning Storm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/callLightningStorm.htm) against enemies that we could take down in 2 hits.) He could never figure out what his spells did, and never buffed himself or his animal companion. (Said companion got turned to stone a few sessions ago and has never been brought back.)

During the past two game sessions, J has expressed some displeasure with his Druid. (As you can imagine, he's a bit overwhelmed.) Now we are trying to come up with a new build for him that is really simple. We've considered Barbarian, but that leads back to the Power Attack problem. The best idea any of us have come up with is a monster straight our of the MM, like some kind of giant (if we can find one of the appropriate level) or Vampire (but we'd need to add at least 2 levels since the party is LVL 10).

What is the easiest build/monster/etc that anyone can think off? Simple mechanics, mostly (or entirely) passive powers, that kind of thing.

[sakuuya]

Maybe a Warlock with all passive invocations? If he wants more combat options, you could add in a couple blast shapes or essences, but basically he'd be able to do the same thing every turn.

[Troacctid]

I would go with either a Warlock or a Swift Hunter.

Archery builds tend to be easy to play because there aren't a lot of tactical considerations to worry about, you just fire an arrow (or laser) every round. Warlocks are great for beginners because they have very few abilities to track and zero resource management--you just do whatever you do, all day long. Swift Hunters are basically the same idea, but with skill points instead of invocations.

[Studoku]

Thirding Warlock. Everything he can do is fairly straightforward and there are no resources to keep track of.

I'd recommend against a monster- they're usually very underpowered, often come with special rules attached anyway (even being Large is a headache sometimes) and have the same problems you'd have had anyway as you add class levels.

[Flickerdart]

Warlock would be a great idea - there are also no pesky iterative attacks to worry about. You could also try the barbarian without using Power Attack; a Whirling Frenzy based two weapon fighter would have enough Strength to deal decent damage.

[Ferronach]

If warlock isnt his thing, I would say go with a "wall of steel" Have a dwarf in mountain plate with a towershield so his AC is "No" and give him a dwarven waraxe. Make him a fighter without power attack or a set power attack of say 5. You could make in Duergar so he can get that nice psionic feat that adds shield AC to touch....
Fairly simple goon as he is buit to wade into battle and take abuse while dealing some damage.
No social skills or really any skills to worry about.
The party will like it because they have a new "chew toy" for their encounters.

If he has issues with power attack I would avoid barbarian beacuse of power attack and rage. Rage is a more complicated mechanic than power attack.

[ComaVision]

Fifthing Warlock. :smallbiggrin:

It's my go-to when I have a new player that doesn't want to play the Big Stupid Fighter. Very high floor for such a basic class with a bit of growth room if they ever do get a good grasp on the rules.

[Brova]

If he's going to be a Warlock, you should probably let his blast do iterative attacks. Warlock damage is pretty anemic otherwise.

While it's a complicated build, a Changeling Warshaper (looks like you guys are around 9th, so probably Fighter 2/Totemist 2/Barbarian 1/Warshaper 4) is simple to play and pretty effective. You prep a claws soulmeld every day, and hit things til they fall down. Fast healing, reach, and some extra damage make the build effective without being too complex. Plus, he's in a good place to pick up some levels of Warblade when he gets more comfortable with the system.

A Sorcerer is another simple option, particularly if someone helps him with spells. Throwing down cloudkill is simple and very effective. Even a blaster build can do okay depending on various things. One thing to note here is build complexity versus play complexity. Figuring out an Arcane Thesis build that spams scorching ray or fireball requires some thought, but it's very simple to play - you just hit things with fire and make them die.

[Seerow]

Honestly, why do you have a new player with no experience at all starting out in a game where you can cast 5th level spells?

That seems like a bigger problem than class choice.

[RolkFlameraven]

You could use the Pathfinder Power Attack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/power-attack-combat---final). Its a set -/+ not one you get to play around with every round. Sure its not as powerful as 3.5's but it works and it much less math intensive.

[Flickerdart]

If he's going to be a Warlock, you should probably let his blast do iterative attacks. Warlock damage is pretty anemic otherwise.
For a newbie player, that probably doesn't matter as much. He gets to roll a handful of dice, the attack always hits, he can turn it into an area of effect if he wants to hit more guys. If he wants more damage, Maximize/Empower SLA is an option once he's got a handle on his bog standard pew pew laser.

[daremetoidareyo]

dragonfire adept is just a refluffed warlock, but might be a choice the player may bite on also. Plus, the feats are easy to choose for him.

[Troacctid]

If he's going to be a Warlock, you should probably let his blast do iterative attacks. Warlock damage is pretty anemic otherwise.

While it's a complicated build, a Changeling Warshaper (looks like you guys are around 9th, so probably Fighter 2/Totemist 2/Barbarian 1/Warshaper 4) is simple to play and pretty effective. You prep a claws soulmeld every day, and hit things til they fall down. Fast healing, reach, and some extra damage make the build effective without being too complex. Plus, he's in a good place to pick up some levels of Warblade when he gets more comfortable with the system.

A Sorcerer is another simple option, particularly if someone helps him with spells. Throwing down cloudkill is simple and very effective. Even a blaster build can do okay depending on various things. One thing to note here is build complexity versus play complexity. Figuring out an Arcane Thesis build that spams scorching ray or fireball requires some thought, but it's very simple to play - you just hit things with fire and make them die.

I disagree with all of this. Warlock damage is fine once you add Eldritch Chain and Vitriolic Blast, and you can always boost it with feats and magic items, too. Totemists and Warshapers are full of complicated, confusing rules that the player would have to learn to play them effectively. And Sorcerers have like the exact same problem as Druids.

[Seerow]

Totemists and Warshapers are full of complicated, confusing rules that the player would have to learn to play them effectively. And Sorcerers have like the exact same problem as Druids.

Agree with this. Seriously we are talking about a player for whom a straight fighter was too complicated because power attack was confusing. There is no universe in which anything involving incarnum or shapeshifting should be mentioned as a possibility for such a player.

[Brova]

I disagree with all of this. Warlock damage is fine once you add Eldritch Chain and Vitriolic Blast, and you can always boost it with feats and magic items, too. Totemists and Warshapers are full of complicated, confusing rules that the player would have to learn to play them effectively. And Sorcerers have like the exact same problem as Druids.

Totemist as it gets used in that build is just a couple of claw attacks. Maybe you take Sphinx claws to deal more damage per attack, maybe you take Girallon Arms to make more attacks. You also get a couple of random melds (probably +2 NA and some other random thing). But it's all factored into your character. Once you're actually playing, there are no combat level choices that the Totemist forces on you. You just get some cool claws. Similarly, the Warshaper gives you +5 reach, better claw damage, and some improved stats. The only active ability that class even has is the "concentration check to heal" thing, which you don't really need because you just fast heal anyway.

I also find it unreasonable to claim Warlock damage is fine on the basis of adding feats and invocations, but that the entirely passive abilities of a Changeling Warshaper are too much to handle.

Sorcerer has some problems, but not anywhere near what Druids would have. You know fourteen spells, only three to five of which are reasonable combat options. Just using scorching ray every round is (almost) the same damage as a Warlock at 9th level, and it only gets better if you do some passive stuff to make it more useful.

[Kazuel]

Not sure there is a good answer if power attack caused confusion. However an easy way to keep track of things like power attack is to have separate attack option on the character sheet and take in full PA mods so there isn't any on the fly figuring it out. When I play martial characters, I'll have upwards of 10 different weapon/attack options already written out. That way I don't slow the game down on my turn figuriyout my to hit and damage. Also Warblade may be good if he likes to blow resources at every encounter and if you do up the various maneuvers on index cards, it keeps the book keeping down.

[Seruvius]

To add on to the Warlock suggestions, try dragonfire adept with entangling exhalation feat. Take endure exposure as a least invocation to make the party teammates immune to his breath attack, then pick whatever else he feels like and enjoy breathing on everything

[ComaVision]

To add on to the Warlock suggestions, try dragonfire adept with entangling exhalation feat. Take endure exposure as a least invocation to make the party teammates immune to his breath attack, then pick whatever else he feels like and enjoy breathing on everything

I considered mentioning DFA but didn't because I feel there's more to keep track of with them than warlocks. You need to know the save DC of your breath, the effects of slow and entangle (unless the DM is going to track this for you), stats for multiple forms if you want to Alter Self, and it's harder for an unskilled player to get a reasonable AC with one (since they have no native armour proficiencies).

[Flickerdart]

I also find it unreasonable to claim Warlock damage is fine on the basis of adding feats and invocations, but that the entirely passive abilities of a Changeling Warshaper are too much to handle.
An autopilot multiclassed monstrousity is fine if it's all the player will ever use. However, given that the OP says this is a longstanding group, we must assume that the player would like to play other characters at some point, or at least level up this one, which means he needs to wrap his head around how to build something. Dumping him into the deep end of the pool won't do a great job of this. Straight warlock is much simpler, works at any level, and has a gradual ramp-up of complexity where you add on these extra invocations and feats one at a time. Or if he still hasn't wrapped his head around things, he can take Weapon Focus (Ray) instead.

[Troacctid]

I considered mentioning DFA but didn't because I feel there's more to keep track of with them than warlocks. You need to know the save DC of your breath, the effects of slow and entangle (unless the DM is going to track this for you), stats for multiple forms if you want to Alter Self, and it's harder for an unskilled player to get a reasonable AC with one (since they have no native armour proficiencies).

The armor proficiencies aren't that big a deal if you're willing to dump initiative. Dragonfire Adepts don't care much about arcane spell failure because they don't normally use their invocations in combat, so they can just wear full plate with a tower shield and not give a damn about whether the armor check penalty applies to their attack rolls. ("Attack rolls? What are those?" said basically every DFA ever.)

[Flickerdart]

The armor proficiencies aren't that big a deal if you're willing to dump initiative. Dragonfire Adepts don't care much about arcane spell failure because they don't normally use their invocations in combat, so they can just wear full plate with a tower shield and not give a damn about whether the armor check penalty applies to their attack rolls. ("Attack rolls? What are those?" said basically every DFA ever.)
Not engaging with a key part of the system (the d20-based attack roll) is also not a great way to get a player to learn the basics of the game.

[Brova]

An autopilot multiclassed monstrousity is fine if it's all the player will ever use. However, given that the OP says this is a longstanding group, we must assume that the player would like to play other characters at some point, or at least level up this one, which means he needs to wrap his head around how to build something. Dumping him into the deep end of the pool won't do a great job of this. Straight warlock is much simpler, works at any level, and has a gradual ramp-up of complexity where you add on these extra invocations and feats one at a time. Or if he still hasn't wrapped his head around things, he can take Weapon Focus (Ray) instead.

The Warshaper still gives him options to advance. He can take levels in any melee class. I fail to see how predetermined invocations somehow make it easier to advance than predetermined levels. From the build I proposed, he could take more Fighter levels if he doesn't feel confident, Barbarian or Ranger levels if he feel marginally confident, and Initiator levels or Totem Rager if he feels very confident. Really the only advancement complexity is determining what your next level is. And apparently the game is starting at 10th, so he can just have already taken a Ranger level, pointing the player at more levels of Ranger.

Hell, if you really feel the build is too complex, Fighter 4/Warshaper 4/Ranger 2 works.

Seriously, how is "take more Warlock levels" less complicated than "take more Fighter/Ranger/Barbarian levels"? Any 10th level build is going to have a lot of decisions already made. The problem isn't that Warlock or Warshaper or Warblade or Warmage is uniquely too complex, it's that a player's first time with a new system shouldn't start halfway through the game.

[nedz]

Is his problem really with the complexity of Power Attack, or perhaps Decision Paralysis ?

If it's the latter, which seems more likely, then he wants a build without choices.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'd actually suggest a martial adept. Get him a bunch of cards with his maneuvers, when he uses one he puts it to the side until he refreshes it and he can see right on the card what it does if he forgets. He also can afford to overkill with his maneuvers since they'll be back the next encounter anyway. To make Power Attack easier just agree on a default setting or two.

He'll have some options but won't have to worry about resource management or too much calculations while still being able to contribute.

If that's no good Warlock would be my suggestion as well.

[danzibr]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned ToB.

``But wait, ToB! That's way too complicated!''

Assuming someone (you?) makes the character, I'd suggest Warblade, you pick J's maneuvers, print off the cards, then J has the cards handy. I'd suggest just sticking J in one stance at the beginning.

It gives more options and power than a fighter (and potentially more fun).

The reason I suggest this is because I play D&D with my dad, and he sounds a lot like J, and I made him a Warblade and it worked really well.

EDIT: Swordsage'd. That's what I get for leaving my reply window open.

[Brova]

One thing I'm noticing is that we probably need more information on what problems the player is having, and on what kind of character he wants to play. Does he want to play a blaster? Warmage or Sorcerer seems good. Is he looking to melee? A martial adept might be possible, or a Barbarian, or just simplifying power attack. Is he having trouble deciding what to do? A Warlock with a minimal number of active powers or a martial adept is where you want to be. Is recalculating power attack on the fly too complicated? Find another source of damage, like Rogue sneak attack or Ranger favored enemy. There are a lot of directions to go, and without knowing more about the issues he's having, it's hard to decide which one is correct. For example, the Warlock has a lot of support, but is a very back choice if he'd like to play a melee character.

[Nightcanon]

Honestly, why do you have a new player with no experience at all starting out in a game where you can cast 5th level spells?

That seems like a bigger problem than class choice.

Quoted for Truth.
First time I got to play a wizard (well, an Illusionist actually) with the first group I played with was when, for some reason I forget, we abandonned our low level campaign for the week in favour of a one-shot level 15 game. It took me about 2 hours to select all my spells and still I needed telling what the pick (and when to cast it). This was back in the days when 2nd Ed was just a rumour and, as Tarquin would say, all that Arcana had just been Unearthed for the first time, so no endless splatbooks and prestige classes to deal with. Still the choices available to a high-level character were overwhelming.
If you can't bear starting the whole party at lower levels (I'd say 3rd max) and building up from there, how about pointing the guy towards a cRPG to do some 'homework' on the 3.5 system? Something like ToEE from Good Old Games, pick up the Circle of 8 modpack and he can get used what a number of (core) classes can do simultaneously. Then invite him to port across his favourite concept to your game.

[Khedrac]

The problem with melee types is that Power Attack requires a degree of competence at mental arithmetic, since you said he is never sure on power attack that makes me think he is not the best at it (many people aren't - this makes him normal).

Warlock is a fairly good "simple" suggestion, but if people are prepared to help with spell selection I would suggest a blaster sorceror.
Note: Do not go warmage - there are too many spells for him to choose from (even if most do the same thing).

Give him a few simple attack spells, e.g. fireball for groups of enemies, orb of acid for single targets and some long-term buff spells (so he doesn't have to worry about them in combat) plus some "help!" spells (e.g. dimension door, greater mirror image).

He should end up being more effective and able to keep track of what he has to do - win win.

[dysprosium]

Does this player have an idea of the type of character (s)he wants to play?

In my experience with players that have trouble with characters, I find that if the player finds a concept he likes than he will be more invested in the process itself.

[Pluto!]

He had trouble calculating Power Attack damage bonuses?

Are we talking about a min-maxed character who doubles certain values, quadruples others and tweaks certain multipliers depending on circumstances, or are we talking about multiplying by 2?

Because I can see why a minmaxed build could be hard to manage - especially in terms of quickly estimating the optimal PA penalty - but if it's just stock PA, we're going to be setting a bar lower than level 9+ D&D goes.

[Kesnit]

Totemist as it gets used in that build is just a couple of claw attacks. Maybe you take Sphinx claws to deal more damage per attack, maybe you take Girallon Arms to make more attacks.

The "maybe you take this" or "maybe that" are the problem. Giving J a ton of options will cause him to sit there and go "I don't know." And there is no way to bluff off "you only have these options" because I am currently playing a Totemist, and he has seen me use lots of melds.


You also get a couple of random melds (probably +2 NA and some other random thing). But it's all factored into your character. Once you're actually playing, there are no combat level choices that the Totemist forces on you.

Until the next day, when you can swap melds. And, as I said, he knows there are a lot of options.


I also find it unreasonable to claim Warlock damage is fine on the basis of adding feats and invocations, but that the entirely passive abilities of a Changeling Warshaper are too much to handle.

The "passives" aren't passive. They have to be chosen, and J can't do that.


Sorcerer has some problems, but not anywhere near what Druids would have. You know fourteen spells, only three to five of which are reasonable combat options. Just using scorching ray every round is (almost) the same damage as a Warlock at 9th level, and it only gets better if you do some passive stuff to make it more useful.

14 spells known means he has 14 things to decide between when he takes his turn. Even with the limited spell list that another player made for his Druid, he was indecisive. (J didn't even have to select spells each day - that was already done. All he had to do was decide which to cast.)


Not sure there is a good answer if power attack caused confusion. However an easy way to keep track of things like power attack is to have separate attack option on the character sheet and take in full PA mods so there isn't any on the fly figuring it out.

That isn't a bad idea... Although I worry that would cause more confusion, because he'd have to decide "do I want to take a -1, or a -3, or..."


Also Warblade may be good if he likes to blow resources at every encounter and if you do up the various maneuvers on index cards, it keeps the book keeping down.

I've considered ToB, but am a little hesitant. None of the experienced players have every played ToB, so we'd be dropping a complete newbie into something none of us have ever done. Even with maneuver cards, he'd have to decide which to use.


The Warshaper still gives him options to advance. He can take levels in any melee class. I fail to see how predetermined invocations somehow make it easier to advance than predetermined levels. From the build I proposed, he could take more Fighter levels if he doesn't feel confident, Barbarian or Ranger levels if he feel marginally confident, and Initiator levels or Totem Rager if he feels very confident.

He can't even handle Power Attack, so how do you expect him to be able to make the decisions for a complex build like a Warshaper?


Seriously, how is "take more Warlock levels" less complicated than "take more Fighter/Ranger/Barbarian levels"?

Leveling up isn't the issue. (One of us would be doing that for him anyway.) The issue comes when we go into combat and he has to act.


Any 10th level build is going to have a lot of decisions already made. The problem isn't that Warlock or Warshaper or Warblade or Warmage is uniquely too complex, it's that a player's first time with a new system shouldn't start halfway through the game.

We started at LVL 8. I'm not the DM.


Is his problem really with the complexity of Power Attack, or perhaps Decision Paralysis ?

If it's the latter, which seems more likely, then he wants a build without choices.

Decision Paralysis. In other systems that he knows well (we normally play nWoD), he's fine. But he's getting overwhelmed with the choices he has to make every round in D&D.


One thing I'm noticing is that we probably need more information on what problems the player is having, and on what kind of character he wants to play. Does he want to play a blaster? Warmage or Sorcerer seems good. Is he looking to melee? A martial adept might be possible, or a Barbarian, or just simplifying power attack.

Based on what he plays in other games, melee is what he wants.


Is he having trouble deciding what to do?

Yup.


The problem with melee types is that Power Attack requires a degree of competence at mental arithmetic, since you said he is never sure on power attack that makes me think he is not the best at it (many people aren't - this makes him normal).

His issue with PA came down to (1) not being able to decide how much to reduce his attack, and (2) figuring out how much damage he did with the reduced attack. More the first than the second, though, since once he made the first decision, we could walk him through the second.


Note: Do not go warmage - there are too many spells for him to choose from (even if most do the same thing).

Another player is playing a warmage.


Give him a few simple attack spells, e.g. fireball for groups of enemies, orb of acid for single targets and some long-term buff spells (so he doesn't have to worry about them in combat) plus some "help!" spells (e.g. dimension door, greater mirror image).

He had a mix on the pre-made Druid list, but only ever cast a very small number. Mostly Call Lightning Storm, which he would then use every round until it ran out. Or Summon Natures Ally V.


He had trouble calculating Power Attack damage bonuses?

Are we talking about a min-maxed character who doubles certain values, quadruples others and tweaks certain multipliers depending on circumstances, or are we talking about multiplying by 2?

Multiplying by 2. But the issue was more what attack bonus to use, rather than the damage afterwards.



I am leaning towards building him a Clawlock who just moves into melee and slashes. No Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian, no Fighter (unless I need some feats) - just straight Warlock. Invocations would be passive - Dark One's Own Luck, Entropic Warding, See the Unseen, Fell Flight, Walk Unseen, and Ignore the Pyre.

I've also been debating making him a Greataxe Barbarian, giving him Power Attack, and pre-calculating his attacks and damage using PA. (Also two stat lines, one for when he is raging, and one for when he is not).

Just for context, the rest of the party:
Silverbrow Human Spirit Lion Totem, Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Totemist 8 (me)
Human Warmage 10
Pixie SORC 1/Rogue 5
Half-Dragon Cleric 7

[Flickerdart]

Seriously, how is "take more Warlock levels" less complicated than "take more Fighter/Ranger/Barbarian levels"?
One is a choice, and one isn't.

[danzibr]

Revisiting the title, it doesn't get much more simple than pure Fighter (I mean, non-NPC).

I hear Artificer isn't too tricky :P

[nedz]

Decision Paralysis. In other systems that he knows well (we normally play nWoD), he's fine. But he's getting overwhelmed with the choices he has to make every round in D&D.

It sounds like he will improve with practice. Personally I'm never sure about power attacking myself so I just take an all or nothing approach: so it's 0 or -5 (or whatever). There is no correct answer anyway - it's all a balance of probabilities.

[Flickerdart]

It sounds like he will improve with practice. Personally I'm never sure about power attacking myself so I just take an all or nothing approach: so it's 0 or -5 (or whatever). There is no correct answer anyway - it's all a balance of probabilities.
The correct answer is always PA for maximum.

[Lorddenorstrus]

I agree with danzibr on possibly pre making a Warblade with prepicked maneuvers. I had an avid video gamer join our group and he wanted a melee smash character... i naturally threw fighter out of the window in 2 seconds our groups power level sits between tier 3 and 2 so he'd be useless. And he'd notice it. So I made him a 2 hander Diamond Mind / Iron heart and printed him maneuver cards so he could read his abilities and he's been content to smash face his with Orc so far. The maneuver system was rather simple once we explained after using them you flip the card facedown and can't use the facedown ones until you spend a round "auto attacking" to refresh. (Also I didn't bother with power attack in his build he manages with slightly less optimized damage potential but won't have any finicky math to do)

[nedz]

The correct answer is always PA for maximum.

Well if you are using Shock Trooper then yes, well usually. But if you have riders on your attacks then you might want all of the iteratives to hit e.g. you're using Arcane Strike; or you only get one attack and you have a spell loaded; or the opponent is heavily buffed, or you have been debuffed, and Power Attack to the max means lots of misses. Sometimes it's more important to hit than the amount of damage you do. It comes down to tactics basically.

[DMVerdandi]

If not Warlock or Dragonfire Adept

Battle Sorcerer. If he is going to play again, he is going to need to learn about spells. This allows him to do so without having too many. Choose for him.

Then print out a spell book, (Take copies of the spells, Print expand each spell so that it is one full page, Put them inside of a 3 ring binder after you punch holes in them.)

Give him the spell book, and he will learn them pretty quickly.

Give him decent gish spells, and let him loose.

[danzibr]

If not Warlock or Dragonfire Adept

Battle Sorcerer. If he is going to play again, he is going to need to learn about spells. This allows him to do so without having too many. Choose for him.

Then print out a spell book, (Take copies of the spells, Print expand each spell so that it is one full page, Put them inside of a 3 ring binder after you punch holes in them.)

Give him the spell book, and he will learn them pretty quickly.

Give him decent gish spells, and let him loose.
Love this idea.

Granted, Sorcerer's don't have spell books, but I still love it.

[Gurifu]

Play an archery fighter. Full attack every round. Get someone else to configure his feats and equipment for him. Use color coded attack dice and have a card with color coded boxes where he can put them, with his iterative bonuses written next to them. (I recommend this anyway for characters with a lot of attacks; it makes your turn much faster.) The DM can keep track of whether he's getting his point-blank shot bonus or not, or have that as a second column on his note card. The only choice he has to make is target selection and "do I move, or do I attack?"

[DMVerdandi]

Love this idea.

Granted, Sorcerer's don't have spell books, but I still love it.

You can ramp it up even further, and have protective 3-ring Binder sleeves, and put all of the pages inside those so that they are soda and cheeto-dust proof, As well as adding in the character sheet, a simplified combat rule cheat sheet, and scratch sheets of paper behind all of the sleeves for notes.

Then print out two spell sigils for the front and back clear paper holders.


Just made yourself an enchiridion.

[Darrin]

The correct answer is always PA for maximum.

I disagree. Particularly with a casual player, the increase in misses will magnify the frustration. Mathematically, yes, in the long run you get bigger damage with a bigger penalty, but in the short run the misses cause the casual player to think he's being "punished" for making the wrong choice. This discourages them from using PA.

My rule of thumb for casual Power Attackers: When in doubt, PA for -2. (It helps if you make sure the DM drops a few Armbands of Might early on, as -2 is the threshold for extra bonus damage.) Once you've definitively locked down the enemy's AC, then the optimizers at the table can break out the graphing calculators and actuary tables and offer advice on adjusting the penalty.

[Blackhawk748]

I second Clawlock. I mean he just needs to walk up and slash the crap out of the target and roll a ton of d6's which is a lot of fun for new guys. Also lots of passive stuff, he just needs to turn it one when he wakes up and he is good to go.

[PaucaTerrorem]

A tripper/lock down build? Doesn't really need PA, just needs to be able to hit.

[Marlowe]

Warblade requires knowing the difference between standard actions, free actions, move actions, charge actions, other full-round actions, swift actions, immediate actions and how they interact with swift actions, and what category all your options fall into. It requires actually knowing the combat system. And thinking ahead, to a certain extent.

You might say this is just basic stuff and everyone should know it. But it isn't, and not everyone does. A lot of players have never had to learn a lot of this because many classes never have to take some of these action types. Swift actions aren't even in the Player's Handbook but were later added in Complete Adventurer.

Until I started playing ToB characters I never knew or cared, for instance, that a charge was a type of full-round action rather than a combination move-and-standard action, so I used to use standard-action attacks on the charge without any idea I was doing anything wrong. And you know what? Nobody else noticed I was doing anything wrong either. I stopped when I spotted it myself.

For the record, I don't think it ever made a difference.

Warblade, if you want him to come to grips with the system in its entirety, would be a good suggestion. But it simply isn't an "easy" option. It's a middling-complexity class that demands a lot of attention to basic mechanics. Some of which aren't as basic as all that.

[WeaselGuy]

I mean, you mentioned he likes melee. Have you considered a Rogue? All you have to really do to play a rogue effectively is move behind an enemy and stab them in the back. Then drop a handful of d6's onto the table and :smallbiggrin:

He doesn't need to know the particulars of it all either. You max out his Hide, Move Silently, Swim, Climb, Balance, Listen, Search, and Spot. Maybe even Use Rope or Tumble, depending on his intelligence. Give him Craven and Penetrating Strike. He doesn't need to know how they work, really, just that whenever he stabs someone in the back, he adds his class level to his damage. If the target is normally immune to Sneak Attack, then the DM halves it (thanks to Pen Str). Make him Dexterity based for good measure, for less stuff to worry about, and give him Weapon Finesse. For weapons, just make him a single weapon wielder, and give him a Rapier. Don't confuse him with TWF, Rogue does well enough with 1 weapon anyways. Plus, the Rapier is a d6 as well, so he only really needs a d6 and a d20 to do anything he needs to.

Just my 2c.

[Kesnit]

Revisiting the title, it doesn't get much more simple than pure Fighter (I mean, non-NPC).

Yes and no. Yes, it is just "I hit it with my pointy stick." On the other hand, he's going to end up with so many feats that he's also going to end up doing more than just hitting things. (i.e. tripping, Cleaving, AoO's)


I hear Artificer isn't too tricky :P

:smalltongue:

All joking aside, Artificer was my first choice for this campaign for myself. However, the DM isn't giving XP. (She's just saying "you level now.") Also, he'd be so loaded down with magical items that he'd be running into the problem of not being able to decide what to use. ("The Wand of Grease? Maybe the Wand of Web? Wand of...what is this??") Finally, there is almost no down time for crafting.


It sounds like he will improve with practice. Personally I'm never sure about power attacking myself so I just take an all or nothing approach: so it's 0 or -5 (or whatever). There is no correct answer anyway - it's all a balance of probabilities.

If I made the Barbarian, I'm considering giving him 4 sets of attack/damage rolls - PA=0 not raging, PA=0 raging, PA=-5 not raging, and PA=-5 raging. I still might, so he has "all the options" in front of him. (I know they aren't "all," but he wouldn't.) That way, he can pick between two options. (Hopefully 2 options will be few enough that he can decide.)


I agree with danzibr on possibly pre making a Warblade with prepicked maneuvers. I had an avid video gamer join our group and he wanted a melee smash character... i naturally threw fighter out of the window in 2 seconds our groups power level sits between tier 3 and 2 so he'd be useless. And he'd notice it. So I made him a 2 hander Diamond Mind / Iron heart and printed him maneuver cards so he could read his abilities and he's been content to smash face his with Orc so far. The maneuver system was rather simple once we explained after using them you flip the card facedown and can't use the facedown ones until you spend a round "auto attacking" to refresh. (Also I didn't bother with power attack in his build he manages with slightly less optimized damage potential but won't have any finicky math to do)


Warblade requires knowing the difference between standard actions, free actions, move actions, charge actions, other full-round actions, swift actions, immediate actions and how they interact with swift actions, and what category all your options fall into. It requires actually knowing the combat system. And thinking ahead, to a certain extent.

And that is my concern. I was originally going to make him a Crusader, but was afraid all the options of the maneuvers will make it hard for him to decide what to do. Especially since he pretty much did the same thing with his Druid - find a small number of spells that worked, and spam them. Since he couldn't spam maneuvers, we'd be back to square one of "I just don't know."


Battle Sorcerer. If he is going to play again, he is going to need to learn about spells. This allows him to do so without having too many. Choose for him.

Then print out a spell book, (Take copies of the spells, Print expand each spell so that it is one full page, Put them inside of a 3 ring binder after you punch holes in them.)

Give him the spell book, and he will learn them pretty quickly.

Give him decent gish spells, and let him loose.


You can ramp it up even further, and have protective 3-ring Binder sleeves, and put all of the pages inside those so that they are soda and cheeto-dust proof, As well as adding in the character sheet, a simplified combat rule cheat sheet, and scratch sheets of paper behind all of the sleeves for notes.

Then print out two spell sigils for the front and back clear paper holders.

Just made yourself an enchiridion.

I actually printed out a "Spell Book"/3-ring binder for my Psion (pre-Totemist). It does work well, since I could flip through each round (prior to my turn) and decide what power to use next. And maybe that would work, since he would have descriptions of all his spells right there, which he did not have as a Druid. (All he had was the list. He had to look up the spells to see what they did.) But I'm just not sure, which is why I am hesitant. Maybe it would work if he had everything there, or maybe having multiple spells would make him freeze... :smallfrown:


I mean, you mentioned he likes melee. Have you considered a Rogue? All you have to really do to play a rogue effectively is move behind an enemy and stab them in the back. Then drop a handful of d6's onto the table and :smallbiggrin:

He doesn't need to know the particulars of it all either. You max out his Hide, Move Silently, Swim, Climb, Balance, Listen, Search, and Spot. Maybe even Use Rope or Tumble, depending on his intelligence. Give him Craven and Penetrating Strike. He doesn't need to know how they work, really, just that whenever he stabs someone in the back, he adds his class level to his damage. If the target is normally immune to Sneak Attack, then the DM halves it (thanks to Pen Str). Make him Dexterity based for good measure, for less stuff to worry about, and give him Weapon Finesse. For weapons, just make him a single weapon wielder, and give him a Rapier. Don't confuse him with TWF, Rogue does well enough with 1 weapon anyways. Plus, the Rapier is a d6 as well, so he only really needs a d6 and a d20 to do anything he needs to.

Just my 2c.

We have a Rogue, who has all the Rogue skills and specializes in backstabbing.