1.)Wheels & push/drag 2.)Can "Minor Conjuration" create a skateboard? 3.)Rate my idea

[Kerilstrasz]

This post has 3 parts, feel free to answer all or just a part.

1.) Wheels & push/drag
assume a human with 10 STR. He can push or drag 300lbs.
If a wheeled contraption is used to "carry" the object, will it change anything? I mean.. will the contraption shave off a portion of the object's weight, so the human with 10 STR can eventually push an object with 300++ lbs weght?
( I know that in real life this is legit, but i need a book quotte to refer my DM if he asks )

2.) Can "Minor Conjuration" create a skateboard?
Wizard's feature (conjuration). The description sais nothing about if the object can or cant have moving parts. Just not be magical.
Just has to be sturdy enough to carry 60-120lbs at low speeds (about 2 or 3 feet per second)

3.)Rate my idea
So.. we are in a dungeon, we dont have someone good at finding/disarming traps (or willing to risk it).
We summon unseen servant to open doors, pull levers etc etc etc..
But for presure plates? We tell it to push an object and trigger anything that might be there.
but it can push only 60lbs. You may say that a presure plate can be triggered with just that.. but i say maybe not all.
So i d like to make him push at least 100lbs.
Will parts 1. & 2. work???

[HoarsHalberd]

This post has 3 parts, feel free to answer all or just a part.

1.) Wheels & push/drag
assume a human with 10 STR. He can push or drag 300lbs.
If a wheeled contraption is used to "carry" the object, will it change anything? I mean.. will the contraption shave off a portion of the object's weight, so the human with 10 STR can eventually push an object with 300++ lbs weght?
( I know that in real life this is legit, but i need a book quotte to refer my DM if he asks )

2.) Can "Minor Conjuration" create a skateboard?
Wizard's feature (conjuration). The description sais nothing about if the object can or cant have moving parts. Just not be magical.
Just has to be sturdy enough to carry 60-120lbs at low speeds (about 2 or 3 feet per second)

3.)Rate my idea
So.. we are in a dungeon, we dont have someone good at finding/disarming traps (or willing to risk it).
We summon unseen servant to open doors, pull levers etc etc etc..
But for presure plates? We tell it to push an object and trigger anything that might be there.
but it can push only 60lbs. You may say that a presure plate can be triggered with just that.. but i say maybe not all.
So i d like to make him push at least 100lbs.
Will parts 1. & 2. work???

1) No RAW one way or the other I can think of. Ask your DM.

2) No RAW one way or the other. Ask your DM.

3) Essentially, with no RAW for either, it's up to your DM. Like half of 5e.

[Seerow]

it's up to your DM. Like half of 5e.

Pretty much this. Most players who support 5e like it for the open-ended nature and ability to come up with "creative" solutions to problems. But if you have a DM who wants to see a citation in a book for you to do anything, you are going to be frustrated at every turn. There's just not anything there.

[SharkForce]

3) make it move two objects, each 60 lbs. drag one forward a foot, then drag the other a foot, etc. conveniently enough, this can scale up as high as you want, as long as you don't mind waiting.

alternately, unseen servant has no concentration requirement. you can always just make two of them, one right after the other.

[HoarsHalberd]

3) make it move two objects, each 60 lbs. drag one forward a foot, then drag the other a foot, etc. conveniently enough, this can scale up as high as you want, as long as you don't mind waiting.

alternately, unseen servant has no concentration requirement. you can always just make two of them, one right after the other.

Also alternatively, just have the unseen servant move the item a foot, Push down on it for 60lbs more pressure, repeat until you feel safe continuing.

[Vogonjeltz]

This post has 3 parts, feel free to answer all or just a part.

1.) Wheels & push/drag
assume a human with 10 STR. He can push or drag 300lbs.
If a wheeled contraption is used to "carry" the object, will it change anything? I mean.. will the contraption shave off a portion of the object's weight, so the human with 10 STR can eventually push an object with 300++ lbs weght?
( I know that in real life this is legit, but i need a book quotte to refer my DM if he asks )

2.) Can "Minor Conjuration" create a skateboard?
Wizard's feature (conjuration). The description sais nothing about if the object can or cant have moving parts. Just not be magical.
Just has to be sturdy enough to carry 60-120lbs at low speeds (about 2 or 3 feet per second)

3.)Rate my idea
So.. we are in a dungeon, we dont have someone good at finding/disarming traps (or willing to risk it).
We summon unseen servant to open doors, pull levers etc etc etc..
But for presure plates? We tell it to push an object and trigger anything that might be there.
but it can push only 60lbs. You may say that a presure plate can be triggered with just that.. but i say maybe not all.
So i d like to make him push at least 100lbs.
Will parts 1. & 2. work???

1. Assuming the wheeled contraption wouldn't buckle and break under the weight, yes. Check the section of the equipment chapter on vehicles like carts for general ideas.

2. Not if your character doesn't know what a skateboard is. Given that they were invented in the 1940s and the default setting is medieval, this is about as plausible as your character inventing the sandwich (18th century), firearms (13th century), or the zeppelin, tea bags, zipper, or the bra (all 20th century). My games typically aren't very anachronistic, so I'd default to No.

3. It's clever as an idea, but if 60lbs won't trigger it, you could just hire a lightweight gnome or halfling to burgle the place, right?

[HoarsHalberd]

2. Not if your character doesn't know what a skateboard is. Given that they were invented in the 1940s and the default setting is medieval, this is about as plausible as your character inventing the sandwich (18th century), firearms (13th century), or the zeppelin, tea bags, zipper, or the bra (all 20th century). My games typically aren't very anachronistic, so I'd default to No.


The Sandwich as a name was invented in the 18th centure. Hilel the elder put lamb and passover herbs between Metzah in the first century BCE. It's highly likely people have been putting food between bread for as long as there's been bread.

[Eloel]

the zeppelin

Welcome to Eberron.

[D.U.P.A.]

But even if he manage to conjure a skateboard, I doubt the wizard would be able to use it properly. You know how hard is to ride it if you have zero experience. Moreover, it says you must see the object before. Because there is a difference between skateboard and plank with wheels.

[Vogonjeltz]

Welcome to Eberron.

Not the default setting, which is medieval (Forgotten Realms) as I said.

[Eloel]

Not the default setting, which is medieval (Forgotten Realms) as I said.

Wait, I missed the memo, is default Forgotten Realms in 5e?

[Chronos]

The default setting, in so far as there is one, is Greyhawk, not Forgotten Realms. There are spells in the core books named after Oerthan wizards like Mordenkainen and Otiluke, but none after Faerunian wizards.

And the "must have seen one" limitation on Minor Creation is key. Your wizard has almost certainly never seen a skateboard before, but he might (or might not) have seen some sort of wheeled platform, which is really more what you're looking for anyway (a 60 pound dead weight wouldn't balance on an actual skateboard).

[Tenmujiin]

The default setting, in so far as there is one, is Greyhawk, not Forgotten Realms. There are spells in the core books named after Oerthan wizards like Mordenkainen and Otiluke, but none after Faerunian wizards.

Actually the default setting is Faerun they just kept the spell names because tradition. Note that the races (especially human) are described by their place in Faerun. There might be other referenves but I'm afb right now.


And the "must have seen one" limitation on Minor Creation is key.

as for the main topic, basically this

[Knaight]

2. Not if your character doesn't know what a skateboard is. Given that they were invented in the 1940s and the default setting is medieval, this is about as plausible as your character inventing the sandwich (18th century), firearms (13th century), or the zeppelin, tea bags, zipper, or the bra (all 20th century). My games typically aren't very anachronistic, so I'd default to No.


Hardly. Putting aside how from a purely historical perspective firearms would be expected given some of the other technology, some of this is pretty dubious. Food between bread predates the 1700's, there are recognizable bras from way before the 1900's, and there's also the matter of complexity of the mechanism. All it takes to invent a skateboard given the parameters here (a wheeled platform which is shoved at a pressure plate with some weights on it) is some axles and wheels under a plank. It's basically part of a carriage, but miniaturized. The actual vehicles are significantly more complex than that. I'd also note that pressure plate traps don't have much of a historical analog from the period (nor do the types of dungeons frequently seen in D&D), and that developing specialized tools to deal with them is hardly unexpected.

Compare the other stuff on the list. Zippers require fairly high machining standards, which would be an absolute nightmare to try and produce with medieval technology. Tea bags require mass produced consistently thin paper cheap enough to be disposable. Zepplins require a propeller steering system, the generation for that, gas containing textiles at high production, the isolation of lighter than air gases, and a whole bunch of other stuff. It's not even remotely the same as a skateboard like object, let alone the wheeled platform that can't do much of anything a skateboard can do that's under discussion here.

[Yrnes]

2.) Can "Minor Conjuration" create a skateboard?
Wizard's feature (conjuration). The description sais nothing about if the object can or cant have moving parts. Just not be magical.
Just has to be sturdy enough to carry 60-120lbs at low speeds (about 2 or 3 feet per second)

I'd allow this. Because this is a clever use of the ability, allows for some character development "learning" to ride, and a wizard with a skateboard is just plain fun.

[Gritmonger]

Conjure up a "small wagon"
Forget unseen servant - tie a rope to it and give it a shove, which can move it at least five feet.
Pull it back with the rope if it goes too far.

You could logically push up to a large creature (see grappling rules) so shoving a small cart should be trivial. Keep in mind you might have to grapple it first in order to push it, but I imagine a nonliving construct auto-fails on athletics and acrobatics as I think it counts as blind and incapacitated.

[Beleriphon]

This post has 3 parts, feel free to answer all or just a part.

1.) Wheels & push/drag
assume a human with 10 STR. He can push or drag 300lbs.
If a wheeled contraption is used to "carry" the object, will it change anything? I mean.. will the contraption shave off a portion of the object's weight, so the human with 10 STR can eventually push an object with 300++ lbs weght?
( I know that in real life this is legit, but i need a book quotte to refer my DM if he asks )

Not specifically, but I think there's a reference to pushing stuff on a surface that is appropriately easy to move things on, such as ice. I'd point out that it is acually pretty hard to move a car around by hand, even with wheels. The thing still weight several thousand pounds, the wheels just make it easy to keep moving once you start.


2.) Can "Minor Conjuration" create a skateboard?
Wizard's feature (conjuration). The description sais nothing about if the object can or cant have moving parts. Just not be magical.
Just has to be sturdy enough to carry 60-120lbs at low speeds (about 2 or 3 feet per second)

Sure, what the hell. That's nifty and cool.


3.)Rate my idea
So.. we are in a dungeon, we dont have someone good at finding/disarming traps (or willing to risk it).
We summon unseen servant to open doors, pull levers etc etc etc..
But for presure plates? We tell it to push an object and trigger anything that might be there.
but it can push only 60lbs. You may say that a presure plate can be triggered with just that.. but i say maybe not all.
So i d like to make him push at least 100lbs.
Will parts 1. & 2. work???

I figure a pressure plate should activate on anything more than the absolute minimum weight of a halfling otherwise halflings don't trigger traps of that type. I can't imagine that a medivalish mechanical trap can function with that degree of discernment though. Our ancestors were intelligent and capable, but if you're basing the trap on what could be accomplished with a late medival level of technology anything that needs mechanical scales of any accuracy are right out.

[draken50]

give the unseen servant a 60lb. block it can lift overhead and drop on the ground in front of it repeating as it moves forward.

If the gm wants to pretend that a falling object does not affect an object on the ground any differently than one just sitting there, offer to stand on his foot, and then jump on it.

Your weight certainly didn't change.

[jkat718]

Here's the most relevant quote I could think of, off the top of my head:
An animal pulling a carriage, cart, chariot, sled, or wagon can move weight up to five times its base carrying capacity, including the weight of the vehicle. If multiple animals pull the same vehicle, they can add their carrying capacity together.

Presumably, the PCs count as "animals" as far as this type goes, as the passage in no way specifies "mounts" or "trained animals" or anything of the sort. For examples of a vehicle's carrying capacity, a 15gp cart holds 200 pounds, and a 35 gp wagon holds 400. For better descriptions of these vehicles, refer to the Hypertext D20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#transport).Thevalues listed there are the same as those in 5e (although they're listed under "weight"), so I'm assuming the vehicles are the same.

[Gritmonger]

Here's the most relevant quote I could think of, off the top of my head:

Presumably, the PCs count as "animals" as far as this type goes, as the passage in no way specifies "mounts" or "trained animals" or anything of the sort. For examples of a vehicle's carrying capacity, a 15gp cart holds 200 pounds, and a 35 gp wagon holds 400. For better descriptions of these vehicles, refer to the Hypertext D20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#transport).Thevalues listed there are the same as those in 5e (although they're listed under "weight"), so I'm assuming the vehicles are the same.



__
| | < This side towards traps/enemies
| |
====|( ) < Wheel


Heck, given this - make a five by five foot plank board, mount it vertically to two wheels with a pair of push-bars behind it, and wheel that in front of you. It's full cover, will weigh enough to set off traps, will protect you from anything that splashes, torches, or shoots you from the front, and should warn you in the case of a gelatinous cube.

[Vogonjeltz]

Wait, I missed the memo, is default Forgotten Realms in 5e?

The PHB and DMG don't specify one (indeed they encourage you to play in whatever setting you like, which I admire), however the adventure modules are apparently all set there. I was also disappointed as I'd always assumed they would stick with Greyhawk as the default setting.


Hardly. Putting aside how from a purely historical perspective firearms would be expected given some of the other technology, some of this is pretty dubious. Food between bread predates the 1700's, there are recognizable bras from way before the 1900's, and there's also the matter of complexity of the mechanism. All it takes to invent a skateboard given the parameters here (a wheeled platform which is shoved at a pressure plate with some weights on it) is some axles and wheels under a plank. It's basically part of a carriage, but miniaturized. The actual vehicles are significantly more complex than that. I'd also note that pressure plate traps don't have much of a historical analog from the period (nor do the types of dungeons frequently seen in D&D), and that developing specialized tools to deal with them is hardly unexpected.

Compare the other stuff on the list. Zippers require fairly high machining standards, which would be an absolute nightmare to try and produce with medieval technology. Tea bags require mass produced consistently thin paper cheap enough to be disposable. Zepplins require a propeller steering system, the generation for that, gas containing textiles at high production, the isolation of lighter than air gases, and a whole bunch of other stuff. It's not even remotely the same as a skateboard like object, let alone the wheeled platform that can't do much of anything a skateboard can do that's under discussion here.

A) I'm not saying these things wouldn't be physically possible to make or think of, I'm saying that if we don't want anachronisms showing up in a medieval setting, these things don't exist. Skateboards, however mechanically and conceptually simple, are one such thing.

B) If you can make armor you have the technical skill to make a zipper, modern machining is convenient but not actually necessary as medieval machining existed. The quality would be lower, but it wouldn't be impossible.

C) Zeppelins could be steered by man or animal-powered corkscrews (or magic!), engine driven props wouldn't be required either. Again, the point is that these are all modern contraptions, not medieval ones.

and D) Firearms are explicitly referenced in the DMG as things that can be introduced for Renaissance (or later) era campaigns. The standard layout, unmodified, is medieval.

All this and more is the reason I said it's very much setting dependent as to how I'd answer. If the setting is more modern, absolutely (assuming the device made is even capable of supporting that weight).

If you want to avoid all this, just say you're fabricating a cart that does not exceed the weight limit of what an unseen servant can push for a wheeled vehicle (150lbs) and go with that, there's no need to include additional weights because the servant would be incapable of pushing them anyway.

[TheOOB]

To make something with complex parts like a skateboard(which would be difficult with medieval technology) I'd require some kind of check to successfully create the item.

Further, there are few surfaces in the medieval world where a skateboard would work. Perfectly even flat ground is not common.

[Kane0]

1) Of course, just don't go looking for a rule that says so. Having something made to carry stuff will naturally make it easier to carry stuff. Like a backpack. If your using the item to carry the load it probably has its own limitations, rather than your strength score.

2) I'd personally say no, but something like a sled is totally fine.

3) Good use of Unseen Servant. He might feasibly be able to push something heavier than 60lb if less than that was needed to push it (like a cart) if you need to get around the issue of 'need more weight to trigger pressure plates'.

[Knaight]

A) I'm not saying these things wouldn't be physically possible to make or think of, I'm saying that if we don't want anachronisms showing up in a medieval setting, these things don't exist. Skateboards, however mechanically and conceptually simple, are one such thing.

B) If you can make armor you have the technical skill to make a zipper, modern machining is convenient but not actually necessary as medieval machining existed. The quality would be lower, but it wouldn't be impossible.

C) Zeppelins could be steered by man or animal-powered corkscrews (or magic!), engine driven props wouldn't be required either. Again, the point is that these are all modern contraptions, not medieval ones.

and D) Firearms are explicitly referenced in the DMG as things that can be introduced for Renaissance (or later) era campaigns. The standard layout, unmodified, is medieval.
A) I'm saying that there's a major distinction between anachronisms which weren't present (the skateboard, the pressure plates it's being used on), and anachronisms which are majorly difficult. I would also say that banning things for being anachronistic when they are tools developed to deal with ahistorical setting elements (e.g. pressure plate traps) which also require zero knowledge that wouldn't be possessed by the characters is dubious.

B) Sure, but if zippers aren't cheap and easy (and they're neither) there's little to no point in making them. It's also a significantly more complex mechanism than a board on some wheels, which requires some degree of real thought to even come up with. It's the sort of thing that likely represents actual negative
meta-gaming were it to come up.

C) There are ways around some of the technical difficulties, though every circumvention makes the device less like the typical zepplin. That still leaves the isolation of helium or hydrogen gas though, or the synthesis of hydrogen from water and the capture of said gas in an isolated fashion. There's a lot of specialized knowledge involved that characters likely wouldn't have.

D) That is how the DMG puts it, yes. With that said, that doesn't mean that firearms aren't medieval, it means that that particular aspect of medieval technology was removed. Late medieval battlefields had firearms all over the place, particularly in sieges. Firearms aren't the anachronism here, their absence is. Alternately, the presence of other late medieval technology is, as dialing back to earlier in the medieval period would remove the firearms.

[Naanomi]

Gnomes with tinker tools can make windup music boxes; they can surely make a flat mini-cart for you to 'see'

[Vogonjeltz]

A) I'm saying that there's a major distinction between anachronisms which weren't present (the skateboard, the pressure plates it's being used on), and anachronisms which are majorly difficult. I would also say that banning things for being anachronistic when they are tools developed to deal with ahistorical setting elements (e.g. pressure plate traps) which also require zero knowledge that wouldn't be possessed by the characters is dubious.

B) Sure, but if zippers aren't cheap and easy (and they're neither) there's little to no point in making them. It's also a significantly more complex mechanism than a board on some wheels, which requires some degree of real thought to even come up with. It's the sort of thing that likely represents actual negative
meta-gaming were it to come up.

C) There are ways around some of the technical difficulties, though every circumvention makes the device less like the typical zepplin. That still leaves the isolation of helium or hydrogen gas though, or the synthesis of hydrogen from water and the capture of said gas in an isolated fashion. There's a lot of specialized knowledge involved that characters likely wouldn't have.

D) That is how the DMG puts it, yes. With that said, that doesn't mean that firearms aren't medieval, it means that that particular aspect of medieval technology was removed. Late medieval battlefields had firearms all over the place, particularly in sieges. Firearms aren't the anachronism here, their absence is. Alternately, the presence of other late medieval technology is, as dialing back to earlier in the medieval period would remove the firearms.

If the PHB/DMG/MM include or exclude something then by so doing that thing exists or doesn't by default. Traps with pressure plates are included by virtue of the DMG and so, anachronism or not (note: Not), they are fine. Skateboards are not and so that falls to the setting. Also note: Being able to create a skateboard like object is not the most important objection anyway, that's the weight capacity and pushing capability of the unseen servant (regardless of if the player makes a cart that weighs less than 150 lbs or whatever).


Gnomes with tinker tools can make windup music boxes; they can surely make a flat mini-cart for you to 'see'

You mean, a dolly? Does the (rock?) Gnome's racial ability say they can make other things, or just that one thing they pick?

[Naanomi]

Does the (rock?) Gnome's racial ability say they can make other things, or just that one thing they pick?
You can build from a small list of things or 'other things the DM approves'; but I was pointing it out because...
A) tinker tools explicitly let you 'invent' stuff, like maybe a 'personal standing chariot'
B) the setting allows some obvious anachronisms with existing gnomish clockwork options

[Slipperychicken]

You want a wheeled pallet, not a skateboard. Having used these things IRL to move furniture, I can tell you they let you push very heavy loads with relative ease. Also, they're much less anachronistic than skateboards.

http://mcdn.zulilyinc.com/images/cache/product/350x1000/100895/zu22671931_main_tm1419298299.jpg

Since you can specify any material you want (assuming you saw one before), make it adamantium instead of wood. If you want to play it safe, just make it out of wood and metal like the above pic (minus the rubber, obviously).

[Knaight]

If the PHB/DMG/MM include or exclude something then by so doing that thing exists or doesn't by default. Traps with pressure plates are included by virtue of the DMG and so, anachronism or not (note: Not), they are fine. Skateboards are not and so that falls to the setting. Also note: Being able to create a skateboard like object is not the most important objection anyway, that's the weight capacity and pushing capability of the unseen servant (regardless of if the player makes a cart that weighs less than 150 lbs or whatever).

The PHB/DMG equipment lists are hardly supposed to be a comprehensive list of everything that was ever in the setting. The absence of some item hardly means they aren't supposed to exist.