Could use some advice on how to challenge a high-powered stealth group

[Jowgen]

Short version:

My group is fast, nigh-undetectable, detects everything, and has such a high damage output that, when all taken together, allows them to steamroller most things before they know what hit them. I need some fresh ideas on how to challenge them without denying what they've invested in.

Long version:

I am currently DMing (no psionics or ToB) a ECL 12 party consisting of the following:

A scout/ranger with swift hunter and a Splitting Force bow
A beguiler/mindbender with Mindsight
A stalker of Kharash with highly tuned FE (Evil), Nemesis, mean single-hit damage and great flyby attack
A rogue with pounce, many attacks and many dice of SA due to expert multi-classing

Every one of them has base speeds of 50 or higher, very high stealth (inc Darkstalker), and very high initiative. They have a swagload of teamwork benefits working for them as well. Between Mindsight (which I've ruled to be blocked by mind-affecting immunity for balance), Nemesis, and their sky-high spot and listen modifiers (that haven't even been magically boosted yet...); they invariably detect anything before it detects them. If it detects them at all, which is rare. Between the rogue's and stalker's damage, a lot of encounters never see the enemies' turn.

They play every encounter smart, never going in unprepared and always setting up for ideal conditions. The party is basically a very well oiled SWAT team. The Stalker's exalted role-playing (he hopes to go Saint one day) keeps them from turning into Murderhobos though, which is nice.

What I'm looking for is for advice on how to challenge this sort of party. I include a good portion of story/intrigue based challenges, which they enjoy about as much as they enjoy being able to wipe the floor with things two levels above their ECL (they even took down a battlebriar the other day, although it took a while...). My worry is that their skill in combat will make them complacent, with the lack of perceived threat and thus thrill stifling their enjoyment of the game. If possible I would like to avoid the arms-race approach, or throwing contrived can-counter-everything-you-got monsters at them.

Any input appreciated, happy to answer questions :smallsmile:

[Kazuel]

A well prepared wizard guild that doesn't like what they are doing aught to challenge them.

[Eloel]

I love the party. If they've been playing their cards well, no one should even know that they exist as a coherent group, just that there has been missing people/subordinates.

It's unfortunate that you don't have psionics, touchsight would've been phenomenal. Give enemies mindsight too (for equal grounds) or give them big groups of enemies. SA is amazing vs single targets, not as much vs groups of targets.

[tadkins]

You say they have a lot of teamwork ability. Such cohesion and comraderie might be well-known. Find ways to split them up perhaps? Could make for an interesting challenge, forcing each one to rely on solo tactics.

[Magma Armor0]

Firstly, your party is awesome. Lots of fun. Secondly, I'd have the next questline involve assaulting a fortress where it will be reported if guards start "going silent", complete with several locked doors that they won't be able to open stealthily. This should force them to engage certain enemies, or find a new method of bypassing them at least.

As for what's in the fortress, maybe someone has started to assemble the Emerald Legion (can someone below that's not on a mobile link for me?) The mind flayers can see through the eyes of their guards, iirc, and could thus be a little better prepared than your average opponent. At least they'd know someone was coming. As an added bonus, the Emerald Legion (or anything with regeneration, really) seems to answer the "tons of damage" strategy that your party seems to use.

[Coldsturm]

As for what's in the fortress, maybe someone has started to assemble the Emerald Legion (can someone below that's not on a mobile link for me?).

For your convenience (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?101587-D-amp-D-3-5-The-Emerald-Legion-Mass-Producing-Ikea-Tarrasques).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Several Greater Shadows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm), replace Alertness with Lifesense (LM). They lurk in the walls/floor/ceiling only slightly peeking out at shadowy spots until something living comes by. They Spring Attack from solid obstacles so they're behind total cover on opponents' turns, and always from different directions.

A horde of high HD, low CR zombies that were created by a Dread Necromancer 8+ with Corpsecrafter, Destruction Retribution, and in the area of a Fell Energy Desecrate with an evil altar present. That gives them +4 Str and Dex, +10 hp per HD, and when they're destroyed they explode dealing negative energy damage that heals nearby undead. Maybe include some of those Greater Shadows, and/or put the (undead) necromancer nearby to fling spells at them. Use zombies that have Improved Grab, he could have used Awaken Undead on them so they regained that special attack. Dire Bat Zombies can block flying PCs from breaking away from the group and approaching the necromancer.

[Nibbens]

Hit them where it hurts - right in the stats and the levels. I'm not saying cheese them every time, Heroes should feel... well... heroic. The fact that you add intrigue for variety really makes my suggestion easier though. You're saying that they kill things much faster than normal, but a monster 2ECL higher than them took a while for them to whiddle it down. Put them up against tiny stat-damaging swarm creatures. Tiny swarm - so can't be killed by anything that targets a single creature and takes no damage from physical attacks. And con/str/dex drain/damage should be rather annoying and put a bump in their resources to clear it up.

This trick will get old fast, however - so don't use it more than once or twice.

Remember that monsters will have battle tactics too - if they are expecting trouble. Good ole Alarm should take care of anything approaching them regardless of stealth as it just detects creatures - period.

Maybe story wise - this super sneaky group has become the target of a super high power theives guild who's application test is returning with items which belong to the characters in question (not magic items or equipment, but maybe mundane things - a players left boot, for example) which the guild can use to accept the new member. - insert hilarity when the PCs find out.

Maybe play to their strengths - have someone hire them to infiltrate a mansion to steal something thats well guarded... however if they kill someone (or anyone even detects them), the deal is off. Or maybe they need to plant evidence rather than steal something - have the PCs involved in starting wars between countries. As soon as they get involved in large scale battles with troops - all of a sudden stealth becomes less of an issue. (a couple battles like this will press the PCs available skills and challenge them).

[Jowgen]

A well prepared wizard guild that doesn't like what they are doing aught to challenge them.

I'll take the general idea of an anti-spellcaster campaign on board, since magic isn't their main forte. Thank you :smallsmile:



Give enemies mindsight too (for equal grounds) or give them big groups of enemies. SA is amazing vs single targets, not as much vs groups of targets.

To use mindsight effectively, I'd have to use a non-evil caster who is silenced, as the Stalker (who has mindaffecting immunity, which I ruled to protect from it) is generally 50 ft ahead to get use out of his Nemesis, and has very detection-optimized listen. It would only really work on an enemy who's prepared for them, which I suppose I could combine well with the wizard guild idea. The Stalker. also puts a dent in the big enemy group idea, as he can do insane strafe-runs with his 15 ft reach and great flyby attack that quickly decimate mooks. I'll keep the options in mind though, as they might come in handy in some scenario :smallsmile:


You say they have a lot of teamwork ability. Such cohesion and comraderie might be well-known. Find ways to split them up perhaps? Could make for an interesting challenge, forcing each one to rely on solo tactics.

That could work, but would also be tricky to do. Their favorite D&D joke is "How many adventurers does it take to change a lightbulb? All of them. You NEVER split party." They've been firm believers in that since the TPK of plan "Pimpleberry" way back in the day under our old DM. :smalltongue:


Secondly, I'd have the next questline involve assaulting a fortress where it will be reported if guards start "going silent", complete with several locked doors that they won't be able to open stealthily. This should force them to engage certain enemies, or find a new method of bypassing them at least.

As for what's in the fortress, maybe someone has started to assemble the Emerald Legion (can someone below that's not on a mobile link for me?) The mind flayers can see through the eyes of their guards, iirc, and could thus be a little better prepared than your average opponent. At least they'd know someone was coming. As an added bonus, the Emerald Legion (or anything with regeneration, really) seems to answer the "tons of damage" strategy that your party seems to use.

Emerald Legion (which I hadn't heard of, so it was very informative to read, thank you Magma Armor0 and Coldsturm :smallsmile:) seems like a bit of a nuclear option tbh :smalltongue: . I do however like the idea of a stealth-infiltration campaign of this type, so I'll start designing one and see if I can get it working. :smallsmile:


Several Greater Shadows, replace Alertness with Lifesense (LM). They lurk in the walls/floor/ceiling only slightly peeking out at shadowy spots until something living comes by. They Spring Attack from solid obstacles so they're behind total cover on opponents' turns, and always from different directions.

A horde of high HD, low CR zombies that were created by a Dread Necromancer 8+ with Corpsecrafter, Destruction Retribution, and in the area of a Fell Energy Desecrate with an evil altar present. That gives them +4 Str and Dex, +10 hp per HD, and when they're destroyed they explode dealing negative energy damage that heals nearby undead. Maybe include some of those Greater Shadows, and/or put the (undead) necromancer nearby to fling spells at them. Use zombies that have Improved Grab, he could have used Awaken Undead on them so they regained that special attack. Dire Bat Zombies can block flying PCs from breaking away from the group and approaching the necromancer.

I've tried incorporeals as described (minus the Lifesight), and they've proven less effective than I'd hoped. They managed to get the drop on them, but as soon as combat started the Scout readied actions to fire his force bow at the moment of attack, while the rest acted as bait/support for the scout. Also, since then, the Stalker acquired Nemesis; which is notoriously hard to block in a non-contrived manner :smallfrown:

The pimped-out Zombie army I like though, especially with the whole heal-allies-on death thing. Could you elaborate on that please? :smallsmile:


Hit them where it hurts - right in the stats and the levels. I'm not saying cheese them every time, Heroes should feel... well... heroic. The fact that you add intrigue for variety really makes my suggestion easier though. You're saying that they kill things much faster than normal, but a monster 2ECL higher than them took a while for them to whiddle it down. Put them up against tiny stat-damaging swarm creatures. Tiny swarm - so can't be killed by anything that targets a single creature and takes no damage from physical attacks. And con/str/dex drain/damage should be rather annoying and put a bump in their resources to clear it up.

This trick will get old fast, however - so don't use it more than once or twice.

Remember that monsters will have battle tactics too - if they are expecting trouble. Good ole Alarm should take care of anything approaching them regardless of stealth as it just detects creatures - period.

Maybe story wise - this super sneaky group has become the target of a super high power theives guild who's application test is returning with items which belong to the characters in question (not magic items or equipment, but maybe mundane things - a players left boot, for example) which the guild can use to accept the new member. - insert hilarity when the PCs find out.

Maybe play to their strengths - have someone hire them to infiltrate a mansion to steal something thats well guarded... however if they kill someone (or anyone even detects them), the deal is off. Or maybe they need to plant evidence rather than steal something - have the PCs involved in starting wars between countries. As soon as they get involved in large scale battles with troops - all of a sudden stealth becomes less of an issue. (a couple battles like this will press the PCs available skills and challenge them).

Tiny swarm has been added to my list of special ingredients :smallsmile:

I've been using alarm, but the beguiler has a knack for using Detect Magic at all the right spots. He's also made a very good case based on the Dungeon Scape and Strongholdbuilder's Guidebook trap rules that he can use Disable Device/Trapfinding to disable alarms. He relishes his skillmonkey role, and I am yet to manage to lure them into a trap.

I love the idea of making them the exam of for a thieving organization, although I can't see it as more than a fun side-plot. Your infiltration ideas are somthing I'll consider, although I do have the problem of having an Exalted good character that won't allow no moral grey.

I do have a war going on atm, so getting them up in a straight up large-scale battle would be a nice way to change things up actually now that you mention it. The Stalker going off after some blimps, rogue and beguiler running interference, Scout sniping enemies... yeah, I can make that work :smallsmile:


Thanks for all the input so far everyone :smallbiggrin:

[PaucaTerrorem]

Make your entire world covered in bubble wrap.

[Magma Armor0]

Emerald Legion (which I hadn't heard of, so it was very informative to read, thank you Magma Armor0 and Coldsturm :smallsmile:) seems like a bit of a nuclear option tbh :smalltongue: . I do however like the idea of a stealth-infiltration campaign of this type, so I'll start designing one and see if I can get it working. :smallsmile:


oh, it's absolutely nuclear; definitely don't set them up against the fully-made emerald until level 17 at the earliest (and even then, I'd wait until 20+). But a lower version could work. Maybe some mind flayers have captured some trolls. The outer defenses can just have regular trolls. The inner circle can have a few trolls that they managed to acquire a casting of Mantle of the Fiery Spirit (grants fire subtype, including immunity to fire damage) for. Last room can have their "chieftan": a troll with the fire subtype and a ring of acid resistance (immunity if you want to get really mean). If the mind flayers escape, bring back the emerald legion later if they make it to level 20+.

I do have a war going on atm, so getting them up in a straight up large-scale battle would be a nice way to change things up actually now that you mention it. The Stalker going off after some blimps, rogue and beguiler running interference, Scout sniping enemies... yeah, I can make that work :smallsmile:
Thanks for all the input so far everyone :smallbiggrin:

Maybe the mindflayers were hired as part of a "super soldier" project by the bad guys in the war?

[Sith_Happens]

I do have a war going on atm

Well that makes things easy. This party has basically made themselves into the ultimate special forces team, at least one side of the war is going to want them.

[Zubrowka74]

A party of Vecna-touched quicklings?

[Nibbens]

I love the idea of making them the exam of for a thieving organization, although I can't see it as more than a fun side-plot. Your infiltration ideas are somthing I'll consider, although I do have the problem of having an Exalted good character that won't allow no moral grey.

I'm not too familiar with Exalted stuff - but if it's nearly the same as a paladin, then do this: Have quest-giver tell the exalter that by infiltrating X (which is a public area) to plant Y (a seemingly innocuous thing) he will stop bad thing Z (death and mayhem) from happening. Therefore he's not trespassing (lawful), he's not stealing (lawful), and his actions prevent bad (good). Convince him that it must be done in secret (thus the sneaking stuff) because of political intrigue A between political rivals B and C have become a hotbed of problems. He is trying to prevent these problems without exacerbating things for the worse.
... and of course, quest-giver betrays them. Typical, but effective. Regardless, the exalter has to go through with the motions because he couldn't let bad things kill people.... Maybe. It would take some work, but it could make the situation fall in your favor.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I've tried incorporeals as described (minus the Lifesight), and they've proven less effective than I'd hoped. They managed to get the drop on them, but as soon as combat started the Scout readied actions to fire his force bow at the moment of attack, while the rest acted as bait/support for the scout. Also, since then, the Stalker acquired Nemesis; which is notoriously hard to block in a non-contrived manner :smallfrown:

The pimped-out Zombie army I like though, especially with the whole heal-allies-on death thing. Could you elaborate on that please? :smallsmile:

Regarding the zombies, it's pretty simple. The feats Corpsecrafter and Destruction Retribution, among others, are in Libris Mortis. Dread Necromancer is a class in Heroes of Horror. The Fell Energy Spell +1 metamagic feat is from Dragon Compendium, it increases the modified spell's numerical bonuses on undead by +2. That means Desecrate's +1 hp per level becomes +3 hp per level, and the presence of an evil altar doubles that to +6 hp per level. A Dread Necromancer can animate and control an obscene amount of undead via Animate Dead, and if he's undead himself there's little chance that any excess undead he creates would turn on him. Other undead that happen to be present, such as the greater shadows, wouldn't necessarily be under his control, but would know that if they're injured they can go find him to get healed by his at-will negative energy touch.

You can also say the Greater Shadows were created in the same Desecrate effect, which would increase their HP from 58 to 112. Also, shadows are smart, if they see that the Scout is readying to fire his bow, they'll spring attack out of the floor under his feet, hit him once, AoO him when he fires at it, and then go back into the floor. Undead are immune to skirmish damage, and he can only ready one action per round, making it largely ineffective against multiple opponents. Make the shadows all focus on one character, and have the hurt ones delay until after he's used his readied action on another. The shadows wouldn't keep coming out if they're close too hurt, they would instead retreat to get the necromancer to heal them up, and come back to join in another encounter, or just harass them as they're moving through the lair. Otherwise, as soon as they see that their opponents are readying actions to retaliate, they'll just remain hidden in the walls until their opponents start moving forward again.

I would make the necromancer a Hellbred (FCII) Necropolitan (LM) Dread Necromancer 14. Hellbred are individuals condemned to the lower planes who found redemption just prior to their death, and were given a second chance at life. This one managed to trick the higher planes into thinking he found redemption, only to return to his wicked ways and worst of all became a Necropolitan so he could potentially live forever and avoid the punishment his soul is due. Of course the PCs would be called upon to end his evil, and/or he's producing undead to reinforce the enemy army. His advanced learning spells should be Kelgore's Grave Mist, Magic Circle Against [alignment] (Eclectic Learning, PH2 Warmage entry), and Awaken Undead. His feats (with two flaws, Insomniac and Love of Nature) should be Corpsecrafter, Destruction Retribution, Lifesense, Fell Drain, Fell Frighten, Fell Energy Spell, and Arcane Disciple: Evil domain. Give him the same undead creation benefits that his minions have (+4 Str and Dex, +10 hp/level, Destruction Retribution). His items should include Gloves of the Starry Sky and a Belt of the Wide Earth (MIC), along with a Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC) with a +6 Enhancement bonus to Cha added (MIC p234). He should also have max UMD ranks with a partially charged Wand of Wings of Cover. His familiar is a Ghostly Visage (FF), which always possesses him and manifests over his face in combat to use its paralyzing gaze attack.

He's used Planar Binding to call a Whisper Demon (MMIV), replace Alertness with Mindsight. It will hide within a solid obstacle near the entrance to the lair and simply follows any living creatures that enter, remaining within a solid obstacle and using its maddening whispers aura to hinder and defeat them as they try to progress through. Killing the necromancer will free it to return to its home plane, where it must resume its prior obligations. It has probably already accumulated some Allips (it can have up to nine), which will follow suit in using their babble ability from within solid obstacles (sound can permeate the gaps between the stones, but it does not permit a straight shot to hit them with attacks or provide line of effect for spells) as they follow their intended victims through the lair.

The entire lair is covered by an Unhallow which imposes the effects of a Silence spell on any nonevil creatures. Such creatures automatically produce no sound, but can still hear sound produced by unattended objects, environments, and evil creatures, and are still subject to sonic effects such as the Allips' babble. Include a pit trap with a (advanced) Gelatinous Cube at the bottom, which is the perfect spot for the Greater Shadows to spring on them. The Allips will also attack from the walls/floor when their intended victims are under attack and distracted by something else. Note that anyone who falls into the pit trap will be automatically engulfed by the cube, and the walls of the pit will be slick from it constantly reaching out with a pseudopod in search of food.

His created undead should be a mix of Cave Troll (MM3) Skeletons (Awakened), Dire Bat Zombies, Dragonkin (Draconomicon) Zombies, and Warbeast (MM2) Riding Dog (with trip) and Dire Weasel Zombies (Awakened). The main chamber where the necromancer resides is a fairly large chamber with a high ceiling and rubble and loose debris covering the floor. The undead which don't fly are hiding under the debris (piles of leaves, sand, etc.) on the floor, those that do fly are perched in alcoves near the ceiling, out of view and out of range of Nemesis. The necromancer himself is on a raised platform with an evil altar, hidden of course. He'll wait until the enemies approach his zombies, then order the flying ones to swoop in and surround them as he throws a lever to drop a portcullis behind them and steps out and starts casting spells.

1st round: Circlet of Rapid Casting Fell Drain Fell Frighten Kelgore's Grave Mist on everyone (6th slot), normal cast Fell Drain Fell Frighten Magic Missile on five separate opponents (5th slot). Only the first instance of damage from a single casting of a spell inflicts shaken and a negative level, but shaken twice is frightened, and shaken again is panicked. A panicked creature that cannot flee will cower for the duration of the condition.
2nd round: Circlet of Rapid Casting Fell Drain Fell Frighten Magic Missile on five separate opponents (5th slot), Destruction on someone with a spell component pouch or wearing light armor or who isn't affected by Fell Frighten (7th slot).
3rd round: Circlet of Rapid Casting Fell Drain Fell Frighten Magic Missile on five separate opponents (5th slot), Destruction on someone with a spell component pouch or wearing light armor or who isn't affected by Fell Frighten (7th slot).
Note he cannot use a Circlet of Rapid Casting spell on a round after he used the Wand of Wings of Cover. If he think he may be defeated, he'll Teleport away thanks to the Belt of the Wide Earth. Any remaining Allips and Greater Shadows will join the fray and surround them from all sides as soon as he starts casting spells. His Ghostly Visage can use its action to focus its gaze on an opponent, forcing them to save against its effect again regardless of whether or not they're looking.

[Psyren]

Just use tougher monsters. And misdirection. Just because they detect it first doesn't mean they know what it is (templates and look-alikes are nice here) and just because they know what it is doesn't mean they can easily beat it. Just because you see a Force Dragon coming doesn't mean it'll be a cakewalk to take down.

The fact that they're working together like this is a good thing, so don't punish them for doing that, but adding a bit more challenge should be easy.

[Necromancy]

Sounds like they're ripe for some antiheroes!

Best choices are either powerful wizard or guild of rogues


Powerful wizard nemesis is one of my favorites, but you have to know how to play them correctly. It's all well and good to have an intelligence of 30+ on a character, but to have that kind of stat on an NPC means much much more. For a NPC with extremely high intelligence, play them against the party as if they have full knowledge of the parties abilities in advance and they already have plans on how to deal with them.

Guild of rogues/assassins seems more likely in this case. It sounds to me like the party is horning in on the assassin guild's territory and they're going to take interest.

Uncanny dodge makes them generally immune to sneak attack unless the party rogues invest heavily into feint. Meanwhile, a guild is far more likely to use poisons to combat other rogues which can lead to it's own nastiness.

[Janthkin]

First, I have to agree that your party sounds awesome. The teamwork described is fantastic.

But given that they are arcane magic light, they're pretty open to scry-n-die tactics from a BBEG caster, and they're at a level now where they probably should be developing enough of a rep that somebody evil is going to start taking interest. Got any recurring villains/villainous organizations to work with? Any survivors of previous encounters? Failing that, just the other side in the war. Start with the list of Divination spells, and see if it sparks any plot ideas.

If it's a "new" nemesis for them, start with probing-style attacks, and let your villain "learn" how they react. After a few encounters, you are completely justified in tailoring hits, particularly if they aren't taking advantage of the magical concealment spells the Beguiler has available. For that matter, most of those classes are reasonably squishy - how many minions with Wands of Magic Missile do you have to Teleport in to gun down a Beguiler? What happens when a caster with a Readied Solid Fog spell is dropped on them, either through Teleportation or from another plane? Or you lead with a (CL-boosted?) Greater Dispel to clear out See Invisible, and then the Greater Invisible stat- or level-draining Undead arrive?

How are their Will saves? Can you pull off a separation through something like Shadow Well or Plane Shift?

The important thing here, as I'm certain you're already aware, is to make sure your progressively-nastier escalations are rational within the existing game, and that the PCs, if they act intelligently, can attempt to reverse some of those tricks, or at least conceal themselves. You've got the makings of a good 5-8 level arc here. :)

[Jowgen]

Regarding the zombies, it's pretty simple.
[...]
His Ghostly Visage can use its action to focus its gaze on an opponent, forcing them to save against its effect again regardless of whether or not they're looking.

Wow. :smalleek:

That has got to be the most detailed, well-thought-out dungeon/encounter concept I have ever read. It's terrifying in its ruthlessness and efficiency. :smalleek:

I have to say, I asked for a way to challange my group, and you went above and beyond to deliver. I probably won't copy it one-to-one, but there are a lot of elements that I'll most certainly draw upon next time I stack em against necromancers. Thank you. And may God have mercy on your player's souls. :smalleek:


Just use tougher monsters. And misdirection. Just because they detect it first doesn't mean they know what it is (templates and look-alikes are nice here) and just because they know what it is doesn't mean they can easily beat it. Just because you see a Force Dragon coming doesn't mean it'll be a cakewalk to take down.

The fact that they're working together like this is a good thing, so don't punish them for doing that, but adding a bit more challenge should be easy.

That's what I'm currently doing, and it's working okay. Thank you for the input.


Sounds like they're ripe for some antiheroes!

Best choices are either powerful wizard or guild of rogues


Powerful wizard nemesis is one of my favorites, but you have to know how to play them correctly. It's all well and good to have an intelligence of 30+ on a character, but to have that kind of stat on an NPC means much much more. For a NPC with extremely high intelligence, play them against the party as if they have full knowledge of the parties abilities in advance and they already have plans on how to deal with them.

Guild of rogues/assassins seems more likely in this case. It sounds to me like the party is horning in on the assassin guild's territory and they're going to take interest.

Uncanny dodge makes them generally immune to sneak attack unless the party rogues invest heavily into feint. Meanwhile, a guild is far more likely to use poisons to combat other rogues which can lead to it's own nastiness.

It was on my list from earlier this thread, but you did give me a new idea with the anti-hero concept.

First, I have to agree that your party sounds awesome. The teamwork described is fantastic.

But given that they are arcane magic light, they're pretty open to scry-n-die tactics from a BBEG caster, and they're at a level now where they probably should be developing enough of a rep that somebody evil is going to start taking interest. Got any recurring villains/villainous organizations to work with? Any survivors of previous encounters? Failing that, just the other side in the war. Start with the list of Divination spells, and see if it sparks any plot ideas.

If it's a "new" nemesis for them, start with probing-style attacks, and let your villain "learn" how they react. After a few encounters, you are completely justified in tailoring hits, particularly if they aren't taking advantage of the magical concealment spells the Beguiler has available. For that matter, most of those classes are reasonably squishy - how many minions with Wands of Magic Missile do you have to Teleport in to gun down a Beguiler? What happens when a caster with a Readied Solid Fog spell is dropped on them, either through Teleportation or from another plane? Or you lead with a (CL-boosted?) Greater Dispel to clear out See Invisible, and then the Greater Invisible stat- or level-draining Undead arrive?

How are their Will saves? Can you pull off a separation through something like Shadow Well or Plane Shift?

The important thing here, as I'm certain you're already aware, is to make sure your progressively-nastier escalations are rational within the existing game, and that the PCs, if they act intelligently, can attempt to reverse some of those tricks, or at least conceal themselves. You've got the makings of a good 5-8 level arc here. :)

I'll incorporate the scry-n-die tactics. With everything so far suggested, I'm now thinking of bringing in a group of misguided-extreemist-nemesis adventurers in (lets call them Hydra, for no reason in particular :smalltongue:), who use their influence to start orchestrating these different things. Hire the mages to gather intel and test power. Get the rogues/assassin to lead them down a pre-set path towards destruction. Then put in Biffoniacus_Furiou's nightmare of a Necromancer challange.

Yeah, this is coming together. :smallbiggrin:


Also, to everyone who complimented my group, I have now resolved to at some point mention the great feedback they got on here. It'll make them smile to be appreciated :smallsmile:

[GreyBlack]

Something that bounces back and forth between the material and Astral plane. I assume that they are quite adept at detecting stuff on the material plane, but what about something like, say, a spider or an ethereal marauder, but beefier. Maybe a wizard thrown in the mix.

[Troacctid]

I would give them a heist mission. Something they need to steal from a maximum-security facility. Set up all the defenses you can think of: alarms, dimensional locks, invisibility purges, magic detectors, guards with extra senses, golem guards that never sleep and can't be mentally manipulated, and so on. And make it time-sensitive, so that they can't case the joint as well as they'd like beforehand, and they can't back off and come back later if things go south.

[Phaederkiel]

Maybe play to their strengths - have someone hire them to infiltrate a mansion to steal something thats well guarded... however if they kill someone (or anyone even detects them), the deal is off. Or maybe they need to plant evidence rather than steal something - have the PCs involved in starting wars between countries. As soon as they get involved in large scale battles with troops - all of a sudden stealth becomes less of an issue. (a couple battles like this will press the PCs available skills and challenge them).


I like this very much. Challenge them at their point of pride could be very rewarding.

I have one more idea to give:
Involve them into some kind of natural disaster, like a fire, or a flood. No enemies to kill, no way that stealthing helps. How is your swim check? your climb check? I love this kind of skill-check-under-duress-Scenario. In a group of four, someone is bound to fumble an important check sooner or later, and then the team can really prove its worth.

Another nice one is to have a fight with a lot of innocent bystanders. Some kind of Rogue, either with a hat of disguise, or even being incorporeal, attacks the heroes in the open street. How can they fight him without revealing themselves, or spilling the blood of innocents? I like reflex saves here, for example if they are able to fire at the guy they spotted throwing a dagger at them before he is gone again. Both spot and reflex should be things they are good at, but two checks additionally to their attack roll can make this enounter seriously difficult.

My ideas are obviously less OP and highlvl than biffs stuff, but perhaps you like the odd mundane encounter, too.

[thethird]

Have you considered using the joker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?99903-Batman-s-Bane-The-Joker)?

[WhamBamSam]

One of the nastiest things a stealth-oriented party can have to go into is the lair of a Xorvintaal Dragon. Xorvintaal Dragons and Exarchs have Telepathy at a range of 100 miles, which means they can have Mindsight out to that distance for the price of a feat. The Dragon will also have Blindsense, so even with Mindsight it won't beat Darkstalker, but in this instance, that's not a bug, that's a feature. Between the Dragon and his Exarch, they will not just know whenever a creature comes within 100 miles, they will also know when a creature with Darkstalker comes within 100 miles (because the Exarch will sense them, but the Dragon will not).

Xorvintaal Exarchs are also a tremendous pain to deal with, because so long as they retain at least one favor token, they can spend all their remaining favor tokens to teleport back to their master's lair at 0 HP when they would be knocked to -10. If the base dragon has spellcasting, trade a spell slot/spell known for the Healing Draconic Aura per the rules in Dragon Magic before you remove all of its spellcasting with the Xorvintaal template, and the defeated Exarch will be up and informing to its master (who in turn can pass the information along to any other Exarchs who might benefit from the intel) as soon as it's dropped. As you don't really care that much about the Exarchs "dying," things like Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit on the Exarchs can help out here too, at least against the melee PCs (Combat Reflexes lets you AoO while flat-footed, so even if the Ranger or Rogue gets the jump on someone, they could find themselves taking a shot for it in return).

I'm personally fond of using dragon varieties with electricity breath weapons and giving them Lesser Mechanatrix Exarchs who are healed by said breath weapon, but these sorts of things are left largely as a matter of taste.

[DMVerdandi]

Throwing some ideas that might stick to the wall.

1. Escort missions. Perhaps have a whole arc in the campaign based on keeping a VIP safe.
2.Sanitation missions. Kill errything
3.Diplomatic missions, and don't just let them roll for everything, have consequences and benefits for conversation.
4.Protection missions. Maybe have them save a village from one really bad monster during the daytime.

I wouldn't necessarily say negate the skills they are good at, but have a nice balance between them having to roll really well without negative consequence, and them really feeling like they can't be stopped. Have them being requested to infiltrate the hardest places to infiltrate because they are the best, and steadily have the world become more aware of their potential existence, but definitely the existence of a ghost-like threat, and then react to it by ramping up their own security within reason.

[Curmudgeon]

Nemesis is specific to favored enemies, and Stalker of Kharash is limited to FE (Evil). Evil is only 1/3 of alignments. You should be able to come up with lots of enemies which the Stalker simply has no advantage against.

[javcs]

Something else you could do is have somebody hire them for one or more jobs, but at some point, one of those jobs is a deliberate setup and trap, tailored for them, taking into account everything that they've done on the prior jobs.


Also, take a look at the Screen spell (in Core). If it is set up to mask the guards/security features, there's no save to resist.

Higher tier security arrangements should have each guard under the effect of a Status spell (Core). Anything happens to one of the guards, instant alert.



Employ some trickery with traps. Have some "traps", probably pressure plates or magical triggers, that when activated unlock and open doors while sending an all-clear/normal marker for when the guard patrols and so on go through.
Have something on the other side of the door (and so the players won't be aware of it or able to do anything about it) that gets triggered if the door is opened but the traps on the first side haven't been triggered.

Equip guards with dead man's switches - as long as they're acting normally, nothing happens, but if they do something out of the ordinary, stuff happens.
Bonus points if a dead man's switch triggers doors to shut, potentially separating the party.


Have a "trap" trigger that locks in place counterweights and the next room. With the trap not having been activated, entry into/passage through the next section throws off the carefully balanced counterweights such that it gets sealed off (bypass by activating the initial trap or flight).


Make them deal with environmental hazards. Somet of these can expose those employing magical stealth. Ie, it's easier to spot someone who is invisible if they're underwater.

[truemane]

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