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Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-14, 09:38 AM
The Gentle Breeze discipline teaches its initiates to give attention to the world around them. A Gentle Breeze adept is able to predict his opponents attacks and strike like the wind itself. Gentle Breeze’s preferred weapons are the Katana, Scimitar, War-fan and unarmed strike. Listen is the key skill for Gentle Breeze.



Gentle Breeze Manoeuvres



1st level
Feather’s Flight - Counter
Wind’s Warning – Counter
Wind’s Speed – Boost
Move Like a Breeze – Stance

2nd level
Falling Leaf Strike- Strike
Wind Slash – Strike
Wind’s Flow – Counter

3rd level
Walk with the Wind – Stance
Whispering Wind Stance – Stance
Wind’s Betrayal – Strike
Wind Razor – Strike

4th level
Gale Slash – Strike
Run on the Wind – Boost
Let the Wind Pass by – Counter

5th level
Hurricane Slash – Strike
Plummeting Acorn Strike – Strike
Slashing Draft - Counter

6th level
Falling Rain Strike – Strike
Rushing Wind - Strike
Rapid Winds Strike – Strike

7th level
Cut the Rain – Counter
Hurricane Charge – Strike
Tempest Slash – Strike

8th level
Roaring Wind Stance – Stance
Tempest Stance – Stance
Whirlwind Slash - Strike

9th level
Act as the Wind – Counter



Manoeuvre discriptions

Act as the Wind

Gentle Breeze (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 9, Warblade 9
Prerequisite: Any 4 Gentle Breeze manoeuvres
Initiation Action: Free or Immediate action (see text)
Range: Personal
Target: Self
You gain an immediate full round worth of actions. You move so fast that nobody may make an attack of opportunity or take an immediate action during this free round. This manoeuvre can only be used in any of the following circumstances
·After you have moved at least 30 ft. and used another Gentle Breeze Manoeuvre. In this case you may use this manoeuvre as a free action.
·After an opponent within 30 ft. takes an immediate action. You must make a listen check opposed by his attack bonus. Whoever wins has their immediate action resolved first.
·After an opponent moves within 15 ft. of you. Make a listen check against his current initiative value. If you win then his action does not resume until after you have taken your full round action.

The round after using this manoeuvre you can still make immediate and swift actions but otherwise count as stunned but.

Cut the Rain

Gentle Breeze (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 7, Warblade 7
Prerequisite: Any 4 Gentle Breeze Manoeuvres
Initiation Action: Immediate Action
Range: 30 ft.
Target: Opponents at least 5 ft. off the ground
You make an attack at your highest base attack bonus at every creature within 30 ft. who is at least 5 ft. off the ground (or is currently making a jump check). On your next available action you count as stunned for 1 round.

Falling Leaf Strike

Gentle Breeze (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 2, Warblade 2
Prerequisite: None
Initiation Action: Readied attack action
Range: Personal
Target: 1 opponent
You may ready a standard action to use this manoeuvre on any turn that you are currently in the air. If you land after falling with an opponent within reach, you make a melee attack that deals an additional 1d6 damage (of the same type as that of weapon you’re using) for every 10 ft. you fell this round up to 6d6 points of damage with a melee attack. If you successfully hit your opponent you may ignore up to 40 ft. of fall distance or you may choose to reduce the effective fall distance as normal with a tumble check.

Falling Rain Strike

Gentle Breeze (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 6, Warblade 6
Prerequisite: Any three Gentle Breeze Manoeuvres
Initiation Action: Full Attack action
Range: Personal
Target: Opponents within area
Area: 15 ft. by 15 ft. square
You may only use this manoeuvre after falling at least 20 ft. You make an attack at your highest base attack bonus against all opponents within the area. You may not make your 5-foot step for this round until you have resolved this action.

Feather’s Flight

Gentle Breeze (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 1, Warblade 1
Prerequisite: None
Initiation Action: Immediate Action
Range: 30 ft.
Target: One medium or small freefalling object or creature
Duration: until landing or 1 round/level (max 5 rounds)
The effected creature or object falls slowly at a speed of 60 ft. per round and takes no damage when it hits the ground. You may control the direction of the falling creature or object, moving 5 ft. horizontally for every 15 ft. it falls.

Gale Slash

Gentle Breeze (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 4, Warblade 4
Prerequisite: Any 2 Gentle Breeze Manuovres
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: 60 ft.
Target: One Creature
You make a ranged touch attack that deals 8d6 points of sonic damage.
This manoeuvre is a supernatural ability.

Hurricane Charge

Gentle Breeze (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 7, Warblade 7
Prerequisite: Any 4 Gentle Breeze Manoeuvres
Initiation Action: Swift
Range: Charge Attack
Target: Opponents you move past
Area: 5 ft. radius burst cantered on you
All opponents you move past while charging suffer 4d6 points of sonic damage. If you successfully hit an opponent at the end of your charge you deal an additional 10d6 points of sonic damage to all opponents within 5 feet of you.
This manoeuvre is a supernatural ability.

Hurricane Slash

Gentle Breeze (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 5, Warblade 5
Prerequisite: Any three Gentle Breeze Manoeuvres
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: 60 ft.
Target: One Creature
Area: 5 ft. wide Line
Saving Throw: Reflex Half
A tempestuous hurricane bursts force from your blade and travels in a line, dealing 6d6 points of sonic damage. Creatures may attempt a reflex save (DC 15 + wisdom modifier) for half damage. Anyone standing at the end of the line suffers an additional 4d6 sonic damage and is thrown backwards as though he had been bull rushed by you.
This manoeuvre is a supernatural ability.

Move like a Breeze

Gentle Breeze (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 1, Warblade 1
Prerequisite: Any single Gentle Breeze Manoeuvre
Initiation Action: Swift Action
Target: Self
Duration: Stance
You may avoid attacks of opportunity for moving with the Listen skill as though it was the tumble skill.

Plummeting Acorn Strike

Gentle Breeze (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 5, Warblade 5
Prerequisite: Any 4 Gentle Breeze Manoeuvres
Initiation Action: Readied Standard action
Range: Personal
Target: 1 opponent
You may ready a standard action to use this manoeuvre on any turn that you are currently in the air. If you land after falling with an opponent within reach, you make a melee attack and deal 1d6 bonus damage (of the same type as that of weapon you’re using) for every additional 5 ft. you fell this round after the first 30 ft. up to 16d6 points of damage. If you successfully hit your opponent you may ignore up to 60 ft. of fall distance or you may choose to reduce the effective fall distance as normal with a tumble check.

Rapid Winds Strike

Gentle Breeze (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 6, Warblade 6
Prerequisite: Any 4 Gentle Breeze Manoeuvres
Initiation Action: Full Attack
Range: 60 ft.
Target: Up to six targets within 30 ft. of each other
As Wind Razor, except that you may make your normal number of attacks you would make with a full round action.
This manoeuvre is a supernatural ability.

Roaring Wind Stance

Gentle Breeze (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 8, Warblade 8
Prerequisite: Any 4 Gentle Breeze Manoeuvres
Initiation Action: Swift Action
Target: Self
Duration: Stance
You gain a 60 ft. fly speed with good manoeuvrability
This manoeuvre is a supernatural ability.

Run on the wind

Gentle Breeze (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 5, Warblade 5
Prerequisite: Any 2 Gentle Breeze Manoeuvres
Initiation Action: Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: Self
Duration: Instantaneous
You may use this boost whenever you move at least 40 ft. in a round. Make a DC 20 listen check; if you succeed then you may make the remainder of your move in any direction. If you choose to move upwards you fall to the ground at the end of the next round, although you may ready actions to attack after the fall.
This manoeuvre is a supernatural ability.

Rushing Wind

Gentle Breeze (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 6, Warblade 6
Prerequisite: Any 4 Gentle Breeze Manoeuvres
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: 60 ft.
Target: 1 opponent
You make a bull rush attempt against a single opponent within range except that you do not actually need to move (and cannot follow up) to do so. Unlike normal Bulrush you may move your opponent 5 ft. upwards for every 10 ft. he moves horizontally.
This manoeuvre is a supernatural ability.

Slashing Draft

Gentle Breeze (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 5, Warblade 5
Prerequisite: Any 2 Gentle Breeze Manoeuvres
Initiation Action: Immediate
Range: 15 ft.
Target: Flying creatures within area
Area: 15 ft. wide, 100 ft. tall column
Saving Throw: Reflex Half
You create a massive column of ki charged air originating from 15 ft. above you that deals 4d6 points of sonic damage to all creatures within it. Creatures may attempt a reflex save (DC 15 + wisdom modifier) for half damage.
This manoeuvre is a supernatural ability.

Tempest Slash

Gentle Breeze (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 7, Warblade 7
Prerequisite: None
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: 60 ft.
Target: One Creature
Area: Cone
Saving Throw: Reflex Half
You a tempestuous hurricane bursts force from your blade in a cone, dealing 8d6 points of sonic damage. Creatures may attempt a reflex save (DC 17 + wisdom modifier) for half damage. Creatures who fail their save must make a strength check (DC 11 + your wisdom modifier) or be knocked 10 ft. in a random direction and fall prone.
This manoeuvre is a supernatural ability.

Tempest Stance

Gentle Breeze (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 8, Warblade 8
Prerequisite: Any 4 Gentle Breeze Manoeuvres
Initiation Action: Swift Action
Target: Self
Duration: Stance
Area: 15 ft. radius
Any character who moves within the area of this stance has their movement speed halved. Ranged weapons used against you suffer 50% miss chance. Flyers must make a strength check (with a bonus equal to their size based grapple modifier) against a DC of 10 + ½ your initiator level + your wisdom modifier to enter the area.
This manoeuvre is a supernatural ability.

Walk with the Wind

Gentle Breeze (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 3, Warblade 3
Prerequisite: Any single Gentle Breeze Manoeuvre
Initiation Action: Swift Action
Target: Self
Duration: Stance
You gain sonic resistance equal to the twice the distance you move this round (max 30).
This manoeuvre is a supernatural ability.

Whirlwind Slash

Gentle Breeze (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 8, Warblade 8
Prerequisite: Any 3 Gentle Breeze Manoeuvres
Initiation Action: Full Round
Range: 60 ft.
Target: 1 square per four initiator levels.
Duration: 1d3 rounds (roll individually for each cyclone)
Area: Cyclones 10 ft. by 10 ft. wide, 30 ft. tall
Save: Reflex negates (see text)
This spell creates a number of powerful cyclones of raging wind that moves through the air, along the ground, or over water at a speed of 60 feet per round. You create 1 cyclone per four initiator levels. The cyclones always moves during your turn. They move in a random, uncontrolled fashion for 1d3 rounds and then dissipate.
Any Large or smaller creatures or objects that comes in contact with the cyclone must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 18 + wisdom modifier) or take 6d6 points of sonic damage. All Medium or smaller creatures or objects that fail their first save must succeed on a second one or be picked up bodily by the cyclone and held suspended in its powerful winds, taking 2d8 points of sonic damage each round on your turn with no save allowed. When a cyclone dissipates then all carried creatures fall 30 ft. towards the ground.
This manoeuvre is a supernatural ability.

Whispering Wind Stance

Gentle Breeze (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 3, Warblade 3
Prerequisite: Any 2 Gentle Breeze Manoeuvres
Initiation Action: Swift Action
Target: Self
Duration: Stance
Area: 15 ft. radius
You gain blind-sense with a range of 15 feet.

Wind Razor

Gentle Breeze (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 3, Warblade 3
Prerequisite: Any single Gentle Breeze Manoeuvre
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: 60 ft.
Target: One Creature
You make a ranged touch attack that deals 4d6 points of slashing damage.
This manoeuvre is a supernatural ability.

Wind’s Betrayal

Gentle Breeze (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 3, Warblade 3
Prerequisite: Any single Gentle Breeze manoeuvre
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee
Target: 1 opponent
Your attack deals an additional 1d6 sonic damage for every 10 ft. your target moved this round, maximum 6d6.

Wind’s Flow

Gentle Breeze (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 2, Warblade 2
Prerequisite: Any 1 Gentle Breeze manoeuvre
Initiation Action: Immediate Action
Range: Personal
Target: Self
If an opponent attacks you, make a listen check against their attack roll. If you succeed then your opponent gets no extra damage from sneak attack or similar abilities.

Wind’s Speed

Gentle Breeze (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 1, Warblade 1
Prerequisite: None
Initiation Action: Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: Self
Duration: 1 round
You gain a +10 bonus to speed.

Wind Slash

Gentle Breeze (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 2, Warblade 2
Prerequisite: None
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: 60 ft.
Target: One Creature
You make a ranged touch attack that deals 2d6 points of slashing damage.
This manoeuvre is a supernatural ability.

Wind’s Warning

Gentle Breeze (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 1, Warblade 1
Prerequisite: None
Initiation Action: Immediate Action
Range: Personal
Target: Self
You may act in a surprise round and do not count as flat-footed. This manoeuvre may be used even when you could not normally take an immediate action.

Let the wind pass by

Gentle Breeze (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 4, Warblade 4
Prerequisite: Any 2 Gentle Breeze Manoeuvres
Initiation Action: Immediate Action
If an opponent charges you, you may make a listen check against his current initiative. If you pass, you move 5 ft. to either the left or the right of your opponent. Your opponent then continues to move his full maximum charge distance past you, provoking attacks of opportunity from you and others as normal.




Feats



React with the wind’s flow (General)
Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes
Benefit: Whenever you are in a Gentle Breeze stance, you add your wisdom modifier to initiative checks and never count as flanked.

Ear to the mistress’ subtleties (Tactical)
Prerequisite: React with the wind’s flow, Base attack bonus +6, any two Gentle Breeze manoeuvres.
Ever open ear: You may make a listen check as a free action whenever you wish.
Aerial Strike: Whenever you attack an opponent whose feet are off the ground you may add your wisdom modifier as an insight bonus on attack rolls and deal an additional 1d6 points of damage. If both you and your opponent have their feet of the ground you deal an additional 2d6 points of damage instead.
Aerial Defence: You retain your dexterity and dodge bonuses to armour class when in the air, no matter the circumstances.



Rebalancing advice and new name ideas for some of the lame sounding manoeuvres would be welcome.

Magnor Criol
2007-04-14, 10:33 AM
This breeze sure doesn't seem very gentle.

It may be because I'm unfamiliar with most of the components here (ToB, Swordsage and Warblade, disciplines, maneuvers) but most of these seem rather strong. I'll let someone else weigh in on that, though.

Hurricane slash - you say it travels forth in a line, but you don't say how long this line is, which is an important detail if you have anyone caught at the end of the line suffers a chance of being thrown back.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-14, 10:39 AM
This breeze sure doesn't seem very gentle.

It's called Irony. Swordmasters like to pretend they're subtler than they actually are.


Hurricane slash - you say it travels forth in a line, but you don't say how long this line is, which is an important detail if you have anyone caught at the end of the line suffers a chance of being thrown back.

The length is in the range description.

Magnor Criol
2007-04-14, 12:32 PM
Huh. If that was a snake, it woulda bit me. Plain didn't see it.

As for the irony thing - I know, I was joking. =p

I got nothin', then, save for the 'it seems strong' bit which I can't really guage since I don't know anything about when someone should be able to get this. It's got a nice feel to it overall, though, and someone who's willing to keep track of their various maneuvers could really clean up a fight.

Legoman
2007-04-14, 12:46 PM
Sounds like the Downy teddy bear should be involved in this somehow :D.

I'll check out the maneuvers more in depth when I get the chance.

Fizban
2007-04-14, 01:08 PM
It's spelled "maneuver".

Also, waaaay to many spoilers. Use one for the level by level short descriptions, one for the alphabetical detailed descriptions, and one for the feats.

Slashing draft is very specific, it doesn't need the stun drawback.

Walk with the wind is also really specific, and most people would never take it, since the whole point of sonic is that few people use it.

I would rename "let the wind pass by" as "sway with the wind". It's also not a 5' step, just say "move 5 feet".

"Move like a breeze" can be "drift on the breeze". It doesn't really matter if the turns of phrase make sense for the maneuver, as long as they sound pretty.

Everything else looks good, though it's not really needed. People that like options will like it, and people that like the exclusivity of the nine disciplines will not. I would also suggest running a board search for "falling star", to take a look at the falling star discipline, you might like it.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-14, 01:22 PM
Huh. If that was a snake, it woulda bit me. Plain didn't see it.

I should probably make it clearer.


As for the irony thing - I know, I was joking. =p

Euphamism would probably be more correct. Or possibly not since I was planning on making it a lot more gentle than it turned out.


I got nothin', then, save for the 'it seems strong' bit which I can't really guage since I don't know anything about when someone should be able to get this. It's got a nice feel to it overall, though, and someone who's willing to keep track of their various maneuvers could really clean up a fight.

You can get them at roughly the same time a Wizard would get spells of that level. Compared to 9th level spells some of them aren't that great while others are pretty much equal to spells.


It's spelled "maneuver".

British English. +10 bonus on all saving throws vs spelling corrections.

I actually prefer the american spelling in this case since the British one is too complicated. I just didn't want all these red lines in my word document.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-14, 02:09 PM
Wind's Betrayal seems extraordinarily powerful coupled with a charge and increased land speed. A Barbarian 2/Warblade 4 can activate Wind's Speed as a swift action and move 70' before activating the strike, netting himself 7d6 points of sonic damage, which is a little excessive for an ECL 6 character. It gets worse at higher levels, particularly with the cunning use of Xephs.

For Falling Leaf/Plummeting Acorn/etc., can one make a jump check for a vertical leap to gain these bonuses? If so, you might want to enumerate that in the maneuvers.

Rapid Winds Strike's Target line should probably read "Up to eight targets; see text."

I_Got_This_Name
2007-04-14, 02:10 PM
Maneuvers, though, are usable practically at will, unlike spells; a maneuver goes from expended to readied in either a full-round action (Swordsage), a Swift action with a possible extra Standard (Warblade), or four rounds of waiting (Crusader), or by just not fighting nor initiating any for a minute. Further, those recover all of your maneuvers (unless you're playing a Swordsage without Adapative Style, i.e. 1st level, 2nd level, or terminally stupid).

Now, for comments on the discipline:
Zeroth, how do you get access to it? As you have it written, these maneuvers can only be learned through Martial Study and Master of Nine levels (maybe; it only grants access to nine disciplines). When I worked on a similar project (not finished yet), I added a feat that added one of the new disciplines to your class list, and the possibility of certain classes trading their normal disciplines for these. If you go with the latter, I'd probably allow Stone Dragon to be traded out for this by Swordsages, and maybe by Warblades. Crusaders are too defensive of a class to really use this.

First, put your maneuvers on the list in some kind of reasonable order. Alphabetical is standard, but if you want to go by level, then alphabetical, that works too (might even be better).

Secondly, I second using fewer spoiler tags. You're making looking at the maneuver descriptions too much work.

Feather's Flight needs a duration expressed in something other than feet. Did you mean rounds, or is it supposed to only save you from really, really short falls?

The Wind Slash series just sits wrong with me. Could do with some more flavor, perhaps. I also think it might be slightly overpowered. Also, prerequisites on those.

Wind's Speed is overpowered; there's a 1st level boost in Desert Wind that grants +10 to speed until the end of your turn. All 1st-level maneuvers should be roughly balanced with eachother, regardless of their disciplines' specializations; if that means making the same maneuver appear twice, with the only changes being name, bonus type, and which discipline it counts as for satisfying prereqs, so be it (see Vanguard Strike and Leading the Attack, in Devoted Spirit and White Raven). If you want this discipline to be more specialized in movement than Desert Wind is, you can add more high-end movement abilities.

Wind's Betrayal needs a cap on its damage.

Falling Leaf Strike seems overpowered; it is a second level maneuver able to do 6d6 damage routinely, and, should a player get that maneuver, they will arrange to fall from 60' onto their enemies every time you fight outdoors. Nonetheless, on comparison to Fire Riposte (2nd level counter, 4d6 fire damage, supernatural) it seems balanced, but, on comparison to all of the other extraordinary, untyped damage 2nd-level maneuvers, we have Mountain Hammer (+2d6, ignore DR and hardness), Claw at the Moon (+2d6 with a jump check), and Tactical Strike (+2d6 and free 5' steps for allies), it seems overpowered. Perhaps drop the cap to 4d6, and merely reduce effective fall distance by 60'?

Also, don't let anyone jump off a cliff (let's say 50'), move, and initiate this strike, then take no falling damage because they hit, or take falling damage because they missed; you could end up in weird quantum situations where them missing on that attack causes the fall to have killed them, or, even weirder, where a Crusader does this, misses, retroactively took the falling damage, dumps it into their delayed damage pool, and the Furious Counterstrike bumps them up to hitting.

Those are just the first ones; I'd go over each maneuver, and compare it to all existing maneuvers of the same level and similar effect, and nerf accordingly. I would then compare the discipline as a whole to the other disciplines, and make sure that it doesn't infringe on what any other discipline does, too much: Desert Wind has supernatural attacks, movement, and area attacks; Devoted Spirit protects your allies, heals, and uses alignment; Diamond Mind destroys single targets, protects you (including some movement), and deals with the mental fight; Iron Heart hits multiple enemies, fights recklessly, and lives on force of will; Setting Sun defends, disables your enemies' strength, and throws; Shadow Hand does stealth, ability damage, teleportation, and that stuff; Stone Dragon has and ignores damage reduction, uses size-based brute force, and has all of the stuff to mess with size; Tiger Claw does two-weapon fighting, jumping, and a whole lot of barbaric/animalistic stuff; White Raven leads.

Naturally there is overlap. Desert Wind and Shadow Hand both have teleportation; Diamond Mind and Iron Heart both have ridiculous single-combat attacks (as does Stone Dragon); Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw both have boosts to give you extra movement when you need it, and White Raven can give everyone else extra movement; Devoted Spirit and White Raven have the same maneuver by two different names; Devoted Spirit and Stone Dragon can both grant you damage reduction. Nonetheless, each discipline should have one (or a few) things that it does really, really well, and the other disciplines shouldn't be as good as that one at it. This extends back to the core disciplines; a new discipline shouldn't be better than a core discipline at the core's strength. This must be managed, though, within a context of balanced maneuvers.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-14, 02:48 PM
Slashing draft is very specific, it doesn't need the stun drawback.

The stun drawback is there because I wanted this to be a full round action but realised it was too hard to set up. I'll remove it for now.


Everything else looks good, though it's not really needed. People that like options will like it, and people that like the exclusivity of the nine disciplines will not. I would also suggest running a board search for "falling star", to take a look at the falling star discipline, you might like it.

Already looked at it. Though an archery discipline has more justification to exist.


Wind's Betrayal seems extraordinarily powerful coupled with a charge and increased land speed. A Barbarian 2/Warblade 4 can activate Wind's Speed as a swift action and move 70' before activating the strike, netting himself 7d6 points of sonic damage, which is a little excessive for an ECL 6 character. It gets worse at higher levels, particularly with the cunning use of Xephs.

Maybe I should have made it clearer. Wind's Betrayal is based on how much the enemy moves, meaning that it can come up often in certain encounters but be useless in others. Still it needs a cap.


For Falling Leaf/Plummeting Acorn/etc., can one make a jump check for a vertical leap to gain these bonuses? If so, you might want to enumerate that in the maneuvers.

You can get those bonuses from any means you have of getting higher in the air. Since vertical height caps at 8 feet most characters won't be able to jump that high.


Rapid Winds Strike's Target line should probably read "Up to eight targets; see text."

Probably. Wouldn't usually be as much as four targets unless you're hasted or something.


Zeroth, how do you get access to it? As you have it written, these maneuvers can only be learned through Martial Study and Master of Nine levels (maybe; it only grants access to nine disciplines). When I worked on a similar project (not finished yet), I added a feat that added one of the new disciplines to your class list, and the possibility of certain classes trading their normal disciplines for these. If you go with the latter, I'd probably allow Stone Dragon to be traded out for this by Swordsages, and maybe by Warblades. Crusaders are too defensive of a class to really use this.

I already gave them levels for Swordsage and Warblade. Adding new disciplines has this problem though


First, put your maneuvers on the list in some kind of reasonable order. Alphabetical is standard, but if you want to go by level, then alphabetical, that works too (might even be better).

I did in the text document after I posted them. Might as well redo the post entirely with less spoilers.


Feather's Flight needs a duration expressed in something other than feet. Did you mean rounds, or is it supposed to only save you from really, really short falls?

I'll look at fixing that then.


The Wind Slash series just sits wrong with me. Could do with some more flavor, perhaps. I also think it might be slightly overpowered. Also, prerequisites on those.

It's based of an incredibly dodgy concept called Sword Pressure. I might make it so the lower level versions aren't touch attacks. As it stands, Wind Razor is weaker than Shadow Garrote, a similar ability of the same level. Wind Slash is weaker than what you could do if you merely charged the 60 ft. range and hit the target with a greatsword but has the benifit of being able to hit low flying targets.


Wind's Speed is overpowered; there's a 1st level boost in Desert Wind that grants +10 to speed until the end of your turn. All 1st-level maneuvers should be roughly balanced with eachother, regardless of their disciplines' specializations; if that means making the same maneuver appear twice, with the only changes being name, bonus type, and which discipline it counts as for satisfying prereqs, so be it (see Vanguard Strike and Leading the Attack, in Devoted Spirit and White Raven). If you want this discipline to be more specialized in movement than Desert Wind is, you can add more high-end movement abilities.

I'll change that then. I tried looking at other discipilines but that one appears to have slipped by.


Wind's Betrayal needs a cap on its damage.

Noted


Falling Leaf Strike seems overpowered; it is a second level maneuver able to do 6d6 damage routinely, and, should a player get that maneuver, they will arrange to fall from 60' onto their enemies every time you fight outdoors. Nonetheless, on comparison to Fire Riposte (2nd level counter, 4d6 fire damage, supernatural) it seems balanced, but, on comparison to all of the other extraordinary, untyped damage 2nd-level maneuvers, we have Mountain Hammer (+2d6, ignore DR and hardness), Claw at the Moon (+2d6 with a jump check), and Tactical Strike (+2d6 and free 5' steps for allies), it seems overpowered. Perhaps drop the cap to 4d6, and merely reduce effective fall distance by 60'?

The automaticly ignoring all fall damage could be changed. Would keeping the cap at 6d6 but making it only ignore 40 feet, so that if you want to deal more damage you have to take it yourself, balance it or is it too easy to tumble? I'll change it so that it's the same type as whatever weapon you're using but I think all 'untyped' manoeuvres are supposed to work that way.


Also, don't let anyone jump off a cliff (let's say 50'), move, and initiate this strike, then take no falling damage because they hit, or take falling damage because they missed; you could end up in weird quantum situations where them missing on that attack causes the fall to have killed them, or, even weirder, where a Crusader does this, misses, retroactively took the falling damage, dumps it into their delayed damage pool, and the Furious Counterstrike bumps them up to hitting.

Didn't think of that. I'm thinking of changing it to a readied action that happens the moment you hit the ground (or your opponent).


Those are just the first ones; I'd go over each maneuver, and compare it to all existing maneuvers of the same level and similar effect, and nerf accordingly. I would then compare the discipline as a whole to the other disciplines, and make sure that it doesn't infringe on what any other discipline does, too much: Desert Wind has supernatural attacks, movement, and area attacks; Devoted Spirit protects your allies, heals, and uses alignment; Diamond Mind destroys single targets, protects you (including some movement), and deals with the mental fight; Iron Heart hits multiple enemies, fights recklessly, and lives on force of will; Setting Sun defends, disables your enemies' strength, and throws; Shadow Hand does stealth, ability damage, teleportation, and that stuff; Stone Dragon has and ignores damage reduction, uses size-based brute force, and has all of the stuff to mess with size; Tiger Claw does two-weapon fighting, jumping, and a whole lot of barbaric/animalistic stuff; White Raven leads.

Naturally there is overlap. Desert Wind and Shadow Hand both have teleportation; Diamond Mind and Iron Heart both have ridiculous single-combat attacks (as does Stone Dragon); Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw both have boosts to give you extra movement when you need it, and White Raven can give everyone else extra movement; Devoted Spirit and White Raven have the same maneuver by two different names; Devoted Spirit and Stone Dragon can both grant you damage reduction. Nonetheless, each discipline should have one (or a few) things that it does really, really well, and the other disciplines shouldn't be as good as that one at it. This extends back to the core disciplines; a new discipline shouldn't be better than a core discipline at the core's strength. This must be managed, though, within a context of balanced maneuvers.

Of course there's overlap. ToB is the Book of Nine Swords and doesn't need new disciplines at all. It just happens that there wasn't a sonic discipline or a purely air based one (although Tiger Claw and Desert Wind come close) but I really just made this as a thought excersise. One reason I made this was that I hated the flavour of Desert Wind and I already had a non-Tomb of Battle variant of this.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-14, 02:55 PM
Well, no: you can get up to eight nine attacks with Rapid Wind's Strike with the cunning use of TWF and haste.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-14, 03:35 PM
Well, no: you can get up to eight nine attacks with Rapid Wind's Strike with the cunning use of TWF and haste.

Oh.

Yeah.

I hadn't even thought about two-weapon fighting.

I'd dissallow two-weapon fighting since two-handers won't be getting a benifit to balance it out. Flurry of Blows fits in with the flavour to some degree though. I'm not sure how balanced it would be to allow up to 9 odd attacks.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-14, 03:40 PM
Oh.

Yeah.

I hadn't even thought about two-weapon fighting.

I'd dissallow two-weapon fighting since two-handers won't be getting a benifit to balance it out. Flurry of Blows fits in with the flavour to some degree though. I'm not sure how balanced it would be to allow up to 9 odd attacks.

Compare to Avalanche of Blades and similar.

I_Got_This_Name
2007-04-14, 03:46 PM
I'm not saying that overlap is bad; the ending bit was a general rumination on discipline design, not directed at you.

By "untyped damage," I meant that the maneuver didn't assign a type; bonus damage takes the type of the original damage when none is given, so the things like Mountain Hammer follow the original type; I suppose going straight out and calling it "bonus damage" might have been clearer.

6d6 bonus damage is still more than any 2nd level maneuver grants. Since this requires (rather than causes) special circumstances, it can do more than other maneuvers; maybe 4d6 or so. 6d6 would be good if you kicked it up a level, possibly even more if you keep the backlash. Of course, Battle Leader's Charge is +10, equivalent to a straight 3d6, but it doesn't cause any special effects other than being able to charge without AoOs. 3rd level has 6d6 ranged touch attacks and +4d6 melee; 6d6+weapon damage, but backlash seems balanced there.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-14, 04:10 PM
I might push it up a level then. Really it comes down to how often you can get 60 ft. in the air. Using this discipline alone it needs a 5th level Manoeuvre to get up there. Using Shadowhand you'd also need a 5th level Manoeuvre, as with Desert Wind, but that would only help if a flying creature shot a bow at you. Using terrain then it's very special circumstances and you'd usually need to have surprise. Using the jump skill you'd need 60 ft. movement speed, the now defunct Leap of the Clouds ability and the ability to pass a DC 580 check (or 80 ft. move speed and a DC 240 check).

So it comes down to how many conveniant ramps your DM leaves lying around and whether or not you have special help from a wizard or magic items. If a Wizard helps you I'd be happy to give the extra 2d6 due to good teamwork.

Fizban
2007-04-14, 06:12 PM
I actually prefer the american spelling in this case since the British one is too complicated. I just didn't want all these red lines in my word document.
You could always just tell word to add it to the dictionary. Right click on the underlined word, select add or add to dictionary or similar.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-04-16, 02:54 PM
Hmm...
With going airborne such an integral part of so many strikes, maybe there should be a maneuver that lets you make a Listen check in place of a jump, or provide a bonus?

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-16, 03:51 PM
Hmm...
With going airborne such an integral part of so many strikes, maybe there should be a maneuver that lets you make a Listen check in place of a jump, or provide a bonus?

Hmm... possibly. I'm missing a few boosts (only 2 so far) but there's enough manoeuvres already. I'll try and have another look at this tommorrow.

Jack Mann
2007-04-17, 03:33 AM
Just as a note, jumping doesn't actually cap at eight feet. It's just difficult for most characters to get better than a 32 on their jump check. However, even a non-monk who really wants to can beat it, and jump ten, twelve feet up.

Manir
2007-04-17, 04:47 AM
I can see a great synergy between Act as the Wind and Time Stands Still.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-17, 07:59 AM
I can see a great synergy between Act as the Wind and Time Stands Still.

Yes. The reason why I limited it was to stop you doing that so often but I didn't want to rule it out.


Just as a note, jumping doesn't actually cap at eight feet. It's just difficult for most characters to get better than a 32 on their jump check. However, even a non-monk who really wants to can beat it, and jump ten, twelve feet up.

Yes. Ten-twelve feet up. That really doesn't help if you want to abuse a manoeuvre by jumping 60 ft. in the air.


High Jump: A high jump is a vertical leap made to reach a ledge high above or to grasp something overhead. The DC is equal to 4 times the distance to be cleared.

Midnight Lurker
2007-04-17, 11:51 AM
A thri-kreen with this style would rule all. +30 racial bonus to Jump. :smallbiggrin:

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-17, 12:32 PM
A thri-kreen with this style would rule all. +30 racial bonus to Jump. :smallbiggrin:

Tiger Claw is more jump based (as well as two-weapon based which is a further + for Thri-keen). Even a +30 bonus doesn't let you been DC 100 checks any time soon.

knightsaline
2007-04-17, 09:06 PM
any chance of the weapon called Gentle Breeze, like the other "official" disciplines?

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-18, 07:52 AM
any chance of the weapon called Gentle Breeze, like the other "official" disciplines?

I thought about it. Then I realised how much I hate the legacy weapon rules.

Artemician
2007-04-19, 06:50 AM
IMHO, the biggest problem with this discipline is that it focuses a substantial number of its maneuvers on being in the air, while offering no means of achieving this itself until level 15. So, it ends up being reliant on other disciplines and Magic Items for it to achieve its full potential.

Also, I must question having Listen as a favoured skill. From what I see of the maneuvers, they compose largely of cutting people to shreds after jumping onto their heads (albeit in a graceful way). Maybe you could change the flavour of this discipline to something more unique and applicable, such as a discipline being wholly focused on speed, or imitating the behavior of flower petals in the breeze. You could then change the favoured skill to something like Tumble or Bluff. This is only my opinion, which doesn't count for much, so feel free to disregard it.

If you wish to keep the fluff you have written, I advise you to remove the direct damage and add in more things that fit the theme. For example, you could make a boost that grants a quick bonus on jump checks, or a stance that allows you to jump as though you had a running start, even if you didn't.

I like what i see so far, very nice work. The maneuvers have been carefully thought out and planned to fit in with the theme. However, don't be afraid of stepping on other's toes! Martial arts IRL have a lot of things in common for each other. For example, many of the kata from Aikido and Judo are extremely similiar, if not the same. Again, this is just my personal view, with absolutley no backing behind it whatsover.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-19, 11:19 AM
IMHO, the biggest problem with this discipline is that it focuses a substantial number of its maneuvers on being in the air, while offering no means of achieving this itself until level 15. So, it ends up being reliant on other disciplines and Magic Items for it to achieve its full potential.

You can get Run on the Wind at 7th level which will help you get into the air. Only Falling Rain Strike, Falling Leaf Strike and Plummeting Acorn Strike actually need you to be in the air. Most of the Manoeuvres are actually anti-air. I think teamwork and relying on other disciplines is a good thing.


Also, I must question having Listen as a favoured skill. From what I see of the maneuvers, they compose largely of cutting people to shreds after jumping onto their heads (albeit in a graceful way). Maybe you could change the flavour of this discipline to something more unique and applicable, such as a discipline being wholly focused on speed, or imitating the behavior of flower petals in the breeze. You could then change the favoured skill to something like Tumble or Bluff. This is only my opinion, which doesn't count for much, so feel free to disregard it.

Again, three manoeuvres consist of falling on people. Not jumping, falling. Tiger Claw is about jumping. Tumble is already Desert Wind's key skill and bluff makes little sense (though I could imagine a discipline based around bluff would be very interesting). The reason why Listen is the key skill is that the discipline is about paying attention to the wind. Most of the manoeuvres that involve the key skill are counters.


If you wish to keep the fluff you have written, I advise you to remove the direct damage and add in more things that fit the theme. For example, you could make a boost that grants a quick bonus on jump checks, or a stance that allows you to jump as though you had a running start, even if you didn't.

The direct damage manoeuvres are what started this whole thing off. I guess I could abandon the roots but then I'd just create another discipline that would include them, which would be unneccesary. All disciplines need strikes anyway. The theme was always about the air rather than jumping and I've already demonstrated that vertical jumping to the heights required to take advantage of the manoeuvers is impossible without insane bonuses.


I like what i see so far, very nice work. The maneuvers have been carefully thought out and planned to fit in with the theme. However, don't be afraid of stepping on other's toes! Martial arts IRL have a lot of things in common for each other. For example, many of the kata from Aikido and Judo are extremely similiar, if not the same. Again, this is just my personal view, with absolutley no backing behind it whatsover.

Aikido shares some moves with Judo because Aikido involves Jujutsu. In Book of Nine Swords terms, Judo is Setting Sun while Aikido would be the whole Swordsage. I don't see the neccesity of only choosing one discipline.

This Discipline's real theme is anti-manouvrebility. It has ranged and charge strikes to take out people who like keeping out of your reach. It has a manoeuvre that does extra damage to enemies that move. It has moves that hurt people who are flying.