Sexy shoeless god

[TheAlmightyOne]

Why wont Belkar obtain any experience from killing an entire mountain of hobgoblins? I thought that experience was devided amongst the party so why wont Belkar get any? Also did he rage in that?

[Eldpollard]

It's because they present no challenge to him. No challenge means no XP.

[Dusk_Rider]

No threat? How did he get all those wounds then?

[Din]

Whats with the two hairs that suddenly grew on the bottom right side of his face...

Or is that just me?

[Threeshades]

I thought if an encounter contains multiple monsters, their Challenge rating is added together?

Because a whole army of hobgoblins can even be a threat for a level 13 Fighter (or Ranger/Barbarian for that matter)

[SteveMB]

Bah. Even if the hobgoblins are too wimpy for him to get any combat XP, if he doesn't get any roleplaying XP for that final scene he wuz robbed....

[BisectedBrioche]

Technically couldn't he get bonus XP for his strategy (i.e simultaneuosly saving Hinjo and allowing him to bypass the MoJ)?

[Grod_The_Giant]

ok, let's call it 50 hobgoblins he killed (I'm too lazy to count), and him as a level 13 character. A hobgoblin is cr 1/2. The encounter calculator at the D20 SRD gives the following readout:

Party Level: 9
Encounter Level: 9
Difficulty: Very Difficult

however, the XP readout is still 0. This is wrong, though- as I understand the rules, you award XP by encounter, not monster, CR- giving a total of 1200. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

[andrewas]

No threat? How did he get all those wounds then?

The rules say that hobgoblins are no threat to a character of Belkar's level, therefore he dosent get any XP no matter how many of them he kills. However, those same rules also advise against using more than about 12 creatures to make up the needed EL, for the simple reason that the rules do not work well in massed battles such as this one. This is a situation where the DM has to make the call, and I suspect that any DM would hand out substantial XP for this one.

[DreadSpoon]

I thought if an encounter contains multiple monsters, their Challenge rating is added together?

Only up to a point, though. If you have two 10 CR monsters, the total encounter level is 12. The rules state that this calculation doesn't apply once the group gets large enough, however.

One hundred 1/2 CR monsters are still no challenge for a character whose level is in the mid-teens. Many of the spell-casting classes could kill the entire group of enemies in a single round, and the warrior classes usually have very high AC, insane hit points, and even a little DR, making the actual threat of death so small as to be impossible.

People need to keep in mind that D&D is a game based on the idea of building a medieval-fantasy super-hero. A character with a level in the mid-teens is not just an "experienced warrior" - he's the medieval-fantasy equivalent of Superman. Especially when you calculate in the magic bonuses of his loot which the rules say a character of that level is required to have, as the CR calculations assume that all characters in the party have the appropriate amount of magic items for their ECL.

That's probably why D&D is the most popular medieval-fantasy game... everybody wants to be a super-hero. By the time most of those people finally mature enough to realize how lame and unfulfilling it is to always be stupidly powerful, they lose interest in gaming entirely before discovering other game systems like WFRP or GURPS or what have you.

[Threeshades]

Technically couldn't he get bonus XP for his strategy (i.e simultaneuosly saving Hinjo and allowing him to bypass the MoJ)?

depends on his Intelligence score. If Belkar has a low intelligence he would be to stupid to think something smart up and if he does anyway he gets penalty for not playing his character properly.

Though i think he only wanted to save hinjo so he can get rid of the Mark. That he fell down the wall was more of an unexpected side effect.

[Pfooti]

ok, let's call it 50 hobgoblins he killed (I'm too lazy to count), and him as a level 13 character. A hobgoblin is cr 1/2. The encounter calculator at the D20 SRD gives the following readout:

Party Level: 9
Encounter Level: 9
Difficulty: Very Difficult

however, the XP readout is still 0. This is wrong, though- as I understand the rules, you award XP by encounter, not monster, CR- giving a total of 1200. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Nope, you give out XP based on the CR of the individual monsters defeated. The overall Encounter Level is simply a rule of thumb to decide how hard it is to defeat the encounter (multiple monsters and such, IIRC, the rule is each doubling of the number of monsters adds 2 to the EL). All that said, it's one of those quirks of the game (which is why the punchline is funny).

But you don't get XP for beating a ton of creatures whose CR is too low, even if the numbers bring the EL up to enormous.

[Black_Light83]

awww, well too bad for Belkar. at least he got to kill a bunch of things.:smallbiggrin:

[Eldpollard]

Just because there is a lot of things, if they cannot cause any real peril then there is no XP. It's in the DMG.

[SteveMB]

depends on his Intelligence score. If Belkar has a low intelligence he would be to stupid to think something smart up and if he does anyway he gets penalty for not playing his character properly.
I think even Thog could figure out "Me can't kill while me in city. Me want to go out of city. Then me kill stuff."

[Threeshades]

I think even Thog could figure out "Me can't kill while me in city. Me want to go out of city. Then me kill stuff."

1. That's "Thog can't kill while Thog in city. Thog want to go out of city. Then Thog kill stuff."

2. But we're talkign about leaving the city in combination with saving shojo

3. If its such an easy strategy (which apparently it is) you wont get any bonus XP.

[bluish_wolf]

Just because there is a lot of things, if they cannot cause any real peril then there is no XP. It's in the DMG.

I though the example was; if a group of high level characters runs into some goblins and then easily tears them to ribbons, it isn't an combat encounter, because they had no real chance of losing. If it isn't a combat encounter, you don't get any combat experience.

Or at least that's how I thought it worked.

[Snake-Aes]

Adventurers in a war aren't supposed to kill as many foes as possible, I wouldn't give even rp/ad hoc xp for someone who just went to stab soldiers(well, maybe 10 xp for making a nice "Picture to remember" like Belkar did). Adventurers in a war are supposed to change the entire course of battle, be it by enforcing the advantage to your army, be it as a special force designed to do something the whole army wouldn't really be able to do(Subdue the high-patent officers? Murder the pilots of the evil siege engine?). A bard would, with a single action, give the soldiers enough advantage to deal as much damage as belkar did in quite some fight without really losing anything.

I'd say Belkar's argument to save Hinjo is valid for him to be prized for saving him though, he's CE after all.

[PiperlyonWiz5]

but he did change the cource of the battle

[Wojiz]

On the topic of Belkar's intelligence, it would seem to be average most of the time. It's his Wisdom that really seems to take a dip; no self restraint, extremely violent, terrible spot and listen checks, no real wisdom at all.

Belkar might not have changed the course of the war, though. It's clear from Xykon's strategy that he can afford to throw away hundreds and hundreds of hobgoblins, so even slaughtering dozens en masse might not do much to affect the opposing army, besides alienating and wounding one of their most powerful men.

[Hinton]

Speaking stricly from a DM point-of-view, I would award a few points of XP for taking on such a large group of enemies, plus points for role-playing at the end.

Yes, there are rules, but the great thing about RPGs is that you can change things to suit you.

DM's discretion.

[Snake-Aes]

but he did change the cource of the battleMy point here is the efficiency of the thing. As I said a bard would do the same difference with a single action of spending bardic music in the middle of their soldiers, that's enough to give them an advantage so big that they kill a lot more gobbos.
Belkar were under unecessary risks when he could really do a LOT better

[Lord of the Helms]

ok, let's call it 50 hobgoblins he killed (I'm too lazy to count)

I'm not, and I do count around 50 on-screen corpses on the shot of the pile we see. Now considering that this is a three-dimensional pile, and that we only get a two-dimensional shot on the center of said pile, he must've killed plenty more than that. I wouldn't even consider anything below 100. Probably much, much more.

As for the threat of the encounter, O-Chul explains it quite well in strip #417. As such, awarding XP by each individual foe is frankly really stupid. The only thing to really make you (almost) impervious to immense amounts of such lowly enemies would be damage reduction, or considerable amounts of regeneration for an indefinite time period.

[The Pink Ninja]

If they win the battle the Order should get big exp for that.


but he did change the cource of the battle

Even if he killed 300 Hoboes that still only 1% of an army that already has three to one odds and a level 18 Sorcerous Lich.

[Threeshades]

Adventurers in a war aren't supposed to kill as many foes as possible, I wouldn't give even rp/ad hoc xp for someone who just went to stab soldiers(well, maybe 10 xp for making a nice "Picture to remember" like Belkar did). Adventurers in a war are supposed to change the entire course of battle, be it by enforcing the advantage to your army, be it as a special force designed to do something the whole army wouldn't really be able to do(Subdue the high-patent officers? Murder the pilots of the evil siege engine?). A bard would, with a single action, give the soldiers enough advantage to deal as much damage as belkar did in quite some fight without really losing anything.

I'd say Belkar's argument to save Hinjo is valid for him to be prized for saving him though, he's CE after all.

But it's so damn cool just to stand in the middle of the enemy soldiers and slashing the living bazooga out of them. Just thinking about what Gimli and Aragorn pulled off at Helm's Deep and Minas Tirith in the Movies, or the party Spartans had with the Persians in 300. I want to do something like that too some time.

And honestly if a Level 13 fighter is really that invincible even to a whole Hobbo army then you can actually change the entiire course of the battle just by slashing soldiers.

[PiperlyonWiz5]

did nobody notice that Haley said probably not get XP?

[Threeshades]

did nobody notice that Haley said probably not get XP?

do you mean "probably not XP" or "probably not XP" or "probably not XP"?

[Snake-Aes]

Nearly invincible != invinible. O-chul's saying here dictates what will happen to a lvl 13 fighter against a whole army

[Jefepato]

Some DMs might choose to let Belkar have XP here. After all, part of the reason why massed weak creatures don't usually make a high-EL fight is because your casters can generally wipe them out instantly. Belkar had to wade into them and actually take some hits to win the fight.

[GoC]

I'm not, and I do count around 50 on-screen corpses on the shot of the pile we see. Now considering that this is a three-dimensional pile, and that we only get a two-dimensional shot on the center of said pile, he must've killed plenty more than that. I wouldn't even consider anything below 100. Probably much, much more.

As for the threat of the encounter, O-Chul explains it quite well in strip #417. As such, awarding XP by each individual foe is frankly really stupid. The only thing to really make you (almost) impervious to immense amounts of such lowly enemies would be damage reduction, or considerable amounts of regeneration for an indefinite time period.

I've put a lower bound on the number of hobgoblins at 300!
The formula is the sum(i=1 to i=hieght_of_pile, (i*width_of_pile/hieght_of_pile)^2)
A low estimate of width=10 and hieght=10 gives 385 hobgoblins.
An average estimate of width=15 and hieght=15 gives about 1200 hobgoblins!
According to SRD they have the same CR as an ancient black dragon!

Just realized:
100 level 1 wizards are much more dangerous than 1000 level 1 fighters

[MightyIgoo]

I would think that Belkar changed the course of the battle from the standpoint that he protected Hinjo from assassination. Hinjo may be an NPC, but he's a high-level NPC and the city's leader, so his death would probably cause things to take a turn for the worse. (At least for the other NPCs. The Order of the Stick would just keep on truckin'.)

[Bogardan_Mage]

depends on his Intelligence score. If Belkar has a low intelligence he would be to stupid to think something smart up and if he does anyway he gets penalty for not playing his character properly.
But he did think it up (he jumps off saying "now leaving Azure City limits", so it seems he did intend to do lethal damage while outside of the city limits). While the Order's players don't seem to take roleplaying especially seriously at points, they do do exceptionally well at playing their characters correctly. In other words, lapses in roleplaying are mostly fourth wall breakage rather than acting out of character. I think Belkar's intelligence is high enough to think this one through (I think the popular theory is that his intelligence is relatively high, it's just his wisdom is low), especially since we have no indication of his intelligence other than his actions.

[Angafirith]

2. But we're talkign about leaving the city in combination with saving shojo
Wow! Kicking the larceny guy off the wall caused a temporal flux that saved Shojo from Miko? Sorry to poke fun, it's just that this is a pet peeve of mine (which is not to say that I don't do the same thing, I've called him Hojo before).

Anyway, I think that I would probably award experience based on the EL of the encounter. The rules about the whole thing seem to be based on area of effects spells. I suppose I'm not lawful, being more interested in the spirit of the rules rather than the exact letter. I think it's also important to reward him for actually putting his character in harm's way. Otherwise, what is the incentive for a PC to do potentially dangerous things like this?

[Kreistor]

Right after the Table in the DMG for exp gained for CR vs. CL, there is a section called "Ad Hoc Experience Awards". A lot of DM's don't understand it, I guess.

Experience is awarded any time a party faces a monster that threatens the life of the PC. Even for monsters that on their face would reward XP, if there is no chance of the monster hurting the PC's, the monster is not actually worth XP. Reward should always match risk.

Belkar is in a very dangerous situation, and those wounds he bears are significant evidence of that. He is in a high risk situation. Although each hobgoblin presents no threat as an individual, the mass will deal damage 1/20 due to the "20 always hits" rule. That means the mass, a creature unto itself, is a danger to Belkar, though each element is a trivial threat.

This is the ideal situation for an "Ad Hoc" experience award. Belkar faces danger that the Exp Table was not designed to deal with. Belkar's situation is why they wrote the "Ad Hoc" section in the first place. If Belkar doesn't get XP, the Giant is a poor DM that doesn't understand the risk vs. reward nature of XP in 3.5. I'd suggest Belkar's player find a new DM, if his current DM can't be convinced that Belkar deserves XP.

[lin_fusan]

I believe there are mob rules in...DMG II (I think), that turns a group of low-level smucks into a large group-monster worthy of the EL and of XP.

So the Order of the Stick DM could play by those rules, or maybe he's a meanie. :smallamused:

[Gez]

Belkar won't get any XP for killing hobgoblin warriors (they're CR 1/2, he's level 13 if he's the same level as V.), he'd need to have fought hobgoblin fighters 6 or warrior 7 to get some XP.

However, were I his DM, I'd definitely give him XP for shouting such a victory cry atop the mound of corpse.

[Threeshades]

Wow! Kicking the larceny guy off the wall caused a temporal flux that saved Shojo from Miko? Sorry to poke fun, it's just that this is a pet peeve of mine (which is not to say that I don't do the same thing, I've called him Hojo before).

Anyway, I think that I would probably award experience based on the EL of the encounter. The rules about the whole thing seem to be based on area of effects spells. I suppose I'm not lawful, being more interested in the spirit of the rules rather than the exact letter. I think it's also important to reward him for actually putting his character in harm's way. Otherwise, what is the incentive for a PC to do potentially dangerous things like this?

ive noticed the stupidity while typing it. but i couldnt be bothered deleting it again.

[Snake-Aes]

I would think that Belkar changed the course of the battle from the standpoint that he protected Hinjo from assassination. Hinjo may be an NPC, but he's a high-level NPC and the city's leader, so his death would probably cause things to take a turn for the worse. (At least for the other NPCs. The Order of the Stick would just keep on truckin'.)For THAT he should get xp, yes. Even for the wrong reasons, they fit his alignment.

[PiperlyonWiz5]

For THAT he should get xp, yes. Even for the wrong reasons, they fit his alignment.

so true, so true

[JaxGaret]

He's definitely going to get XP for killing Mr. Poison-arrow over there.

Roleplaying XP all around, too.

Haley's guess is as good as ours, really. He may or may not get encounter XP for that pile of corpses beneath him; but in the end, it's the pile of corpses that matters to Belkar the most, I'm sure. :)

I <3 Belkar

[Mewtarthio]

Wow! Kicking the larceny guy off the wall caused a temporal flux that saved Shojo from Miko? Sorry to poke fun, it's just that this is a pet peeve of mine (which is not to say that I don't do the same thing, I've called him Hojo before).

No, the poisoned arrow must have entered a wormhole and killed Miko right as she was standing above Shojo!

[PsyBlade]

For the record, by my calculations, Xykon's army started as 26,400 hobbos strong +/- a reasonably large number of undead.

Belkar hasn't turned the tide of war, yet. Of course, when the Hobbos realize what he did, they'll probably start running from him on sight.

[orcmonk89]

Ad Hoc, people, Ad Hoc! ;)

[Klev]

Nearly invincible != invinible. O-chul's saying here dictates what will happen to a lvl 13 fighter against a whole army

Unless that lvl 13th is prepared for defeating armies =).

Really with the right choice of DR, high AC, Regeneration, buff spells, spells, great-cleave etc. one lvl 13th can defeat a whole army of hobgoblins.

[Caledonian]

If I were DMing for Belkar, I'd rule that his daggers become minor Goblinbane artifacts.

Of course, my magic item system is quite different from that of standard D&D...

[Snake-Aes]

Unless that lvl 13th is prepared for defeating armies =).

Really with the right choice of DR, high AC, Regeneration, buff spells, spells, great-cleave etc. one lvl 13th can defeat a whole army of hobgoblins.
Which is not the case of belkar, i'm afraid. His AC might be good but he has no DR nor Damage reduction and the only speed he gains on attack is the dual wielding

[PlasticSoldier]

If I were DMing for Belkar, I'd rule that his daggers become minor Goblinbane artifacts.

Of course, my magic item system is quite different from that of standard D&D...

Please explain I'm not a D&D player.

[Snake-Aes]

Goblin Bane = Weapon has a bonus on attack and damage against goblins.

[Frosty]

There is a way for Belkar to gain combat exp. Using the new Mob rules from PHB2 or DMG2 I forgot which, those 100 hobgoblins can be counted as one Mob creature, with a vastly higher CR than just a bunch of hobgoblins added together.

[MReav]

There's also the Arcana Unearthed that has everything worth a constant amount of XP (though XP per level is drastically changed)

[Zictor]

Well, nobodu brought up the fact that maybe the Giant is not awarding Belkar any XP for the single fact that it is funny to piss Belkar off.

This is a comic first of all, which is based onD&D.

It doesn't have to follow the rules

The golden Rule is to have fun

[corran_132]

everything said is true, but I would just like to add in one little idea

He may be able to get xp, depending on exactly what what he dilled was based on. one DM that I once had had our characters go through a similar situation, and got arround the no xp rule by creating a new monster- the goblin swarm.

basically, it works similarly to a swarm in terms of xp, but similar to goblins in everything else. since there were almost endless goblins, that actually worked fairly well. It also boosted the encounter level of the attackers to a high enough level that the party actually got xp from them.

That being said, we were shafted on the treasure from that encounter.

I'm just suggesting an idea, though it would be nice for a strip with the look on Belker's face when he found out he received no xp from the encounter to be published.

[Milandros]

Sheesh, every time the Giant bends the rules in the slightest way for humour value, the forums fill up with complaints. Here, where he sticks to the rules as laid out in the DMG, also for humour value, the forum fills up with complaints. He just can't win.

Belkar, by the DMG, gets no experience. XP is awarded per creature, not per encounter, so he gets lots x 0 = 0.

I suspect this rule was introduced to help DMs who have players who think they really deserve loads of XP for starting a rat farm then killing them by the thousand, or who slaughter village after village of level 1 commoners with their level 15 PCs in an attempt to level up. It's unfortunate, but some players (and a few DMs, too) are entirely happy to throw all common sense and sensible play out of the window when they can find some silly rules loophole that lets them bend the numbers. Look up the old 3.0 "bag-o-rats" trick as a fine example.

Of course, a DM is entirely in his rights to award XP anyway, or use a swarm, or use a different XP system altogether if he wants, but if DM Rich wants to use the rules as written, that's up to him.

[Moik]

In before tl;dr.

As noted in the OTHER thread ALREADY discussing this topic... the DMG is silent on the xp reward of one high-level-being facing massed low-level-beings as it is "difficult to adjudicate fairly." I see a disclaimer below the CR-to-XP chart saying that wide-gap encounters are "not supported". I see a *, not a 0, where the XP reward should be. The only time it references the possibility is "An encounter so easy that it uses up none or almost none of the party's resources shouldn't result in any XP reward at all." From the depicted gashes and wounds, Belkar made a significant investment of HP to win that battle.

Realistically, a level 13 ranger will have no difficulty facing limiltess amounts of hobgoblins if all they do is slash at each other. I see some references to "if it was my game..." then either he'd get XP or not. If it was my game, there would be no question about his xp reward; he'd be dead.

Let's set aside the DMG and switch to the MM for just a moment so we can take a quick peek at the entry for Hobgoblins and get some stats: Organization; "... or tribe (30-300 plus one 3rd-level Seargant per 20 adults, 1 or 2 lieutenants of 3rd or 4th level, 1 leader of 6th-to-8th level..."

So there's the 200+ regulars of CR 1/2, 10 CR1, 2 CR3, and a CR6 we'll say. That's a decent amount of wiggle-room for fun feats that warriors would have. I won't use that wiggle room, but I just wanted to point that out.

Now, over to the PHB to review our Grappling rules.

A grappler has a bonus equal to his base attack bonus + his strength bonus, plus his size modifier. Belkar is something like Rgr12/Bbn1 for +13, I'll be nice and say his non-rage strength by now is 14 for +2, but his size modifier is -4. He has +11 naturally, and +13 while raging. A basic hobbo has 11 strength for +0, and medium size for +0, and +1 melee attack bonus.

The first issue in grappling is surviving the AoO. They have the numbers that they can absorb his AoO will plenty of room each round. The grab attack requires actually being able to hit, which the hobbos have demonstrated based on Belkar's wounds (his AC must be very low). After that, it's opposed grapple checks.

Belkar will successfully stay ungrappled for as long as he can roll above 10. If he rolls below 10, an attacking hobbo has a chance to bring him down. Every point below 10 is a point of wiggle room the hobbo has. Statistically, every second roll will be below ten, so every second roll the hobbos have a chance to bring him down. One in twenty of those rolls will be the twenty needed to insure victory. This means, using the law of averages, Belkar is insured be grappled on or before even the 40th grapple check. Of 200 some. Plus some hobbos with class levels. So they have leeway to go through all that rigmarole five times.

Once grappled, the other hobbos can bypass the AoO, the grab attempt, and simply dogpile on. He needs to make four checks a round from there on to avoid being pinned, and four to try to escape. The moment he's pinned, the next hobbo, one not even grappling, can step in for the coup de grace. Assuming he kills each hobbo after they've failed to pin him, he needs to survive five of those dogpiles to survive the battle (so plus however many hobbos get two tries). There will be over a thousands rolls needed to determine the final outcome of the battle if taken to full. In real life it would take over an hour without the aid of a computer.

If he survives, it's a miracle of the dice. But he gets no xp?

[Silverlocke980]

Too many enemies greatly increase the CR. Think of the flanking bonuses those hobgoblins are getting!

[jindra34]

Too many enemies greatly increase the CR. Think of the flanking bonuses those hobgoblins are getting!

Your confusing EL with CR... CR is a constant for a monster (generally) EL is dependent on numbers and like 10 other things ...

[Silverlocke980]

Oops, my bad.

[wymarc]

Hmmm.....

I'd give him some xp just cause it was so cool.

don't see any reason to punish a player for doing somthing cool and/or heroic

[the_tick_rules]

it's in the ad hoc section of the dmg on xp awards. you usually don't get xp for killing stuff 8 cr below you cause they are so easy. would even like 1k kobolds really threaten a party of four 20th level characters? it's up to the dm to answer that question, which rich will award xp in whatever manner he has been doing it from the beginning.

[TetsujinOni]

Okay, so a mob of 48 hobgoblins looks like this:

Hobgoblin mob CR 8
- LE gargantuan humanoid mob (mob of Medium hobgoblins)
Init: +0; Senses: Listen +2, Spot +2
-----------------------------------
AC 11, touch 7, flat-footed 11
HP: 180 (avg), 240 (LG) (30d8+60)
Fort: +17, Ref +1, Will +1
-----------------------------------
Speed: 20 ft (4 squares)
Melee: mob (5d6 bludgeoning)
Space: 20ft
Reach: 0ft
Base atk: +22 Grp: +34
Atk options: expert grappler, trample 2d6
-----------------------------------
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
SQ mob anatomy
Feats: Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, <dealer's choice>

So, if there's about 350 hobgoblins in the stack, that's seven CR8 mobs, for an EL of about 14...

That looks like experience to me.

[lunatic113]

Poor Belkar, not getting his murderous XP. :belkar: :frown: