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NullAshton
2007-04-14, 11:55 AM
I was bored last night and today, and decided to do a few calculations. I found out that one of my hunches was correct, that Two-Weapon Fighting can be superior.

Suppose there are two level 20 fighters. One is your standard fighter grunt with power attack and a greatsword. The other dual-wields bastard swords with oversized two-weapon fighting. Who do you think does the most damage?

Here are the average damage I calculated. Sorry if it's confusing, I just wrote it down as I calculated it in notepad.


Power attack: 2 5 10 15 20

Greatsword: 136 160 200 240 280
Bastard Swords: 128.5 149.5 184.5 219.5 254.5

Now with 1d6 extra damage.

Greatsword: 150 174 214 254 294
Bastard Swords: 153 174 209 244 279

2d6 extra damage now.

Greatsword: 164 188 228 268 308
Bastard Swords: 177.5 198.5 233.5 268.5 303.5

3d6 extra damage.

Greatsword: 178 202 242 282 322
Bastard Swords: 202 223 258 293 328Note that for all two-weapon fighting calculations, power attack penalty is reduced by 2 with the requisite penalty to damage. That is why the power attack amounts start at 2, instead of 0.

Also note that I do not include shock trooper or leap attack in my calculations. This is because it's plainly obvious that two-weapon fighting is inferior on a charge. I think there's a feat that lets you attack with both weapons on a charge... but not sure where it is. If I find it, I can probably do some more calculations with charges.

Comments on this? Any mistakes I made while calculating the average damages?

EDIT: Okay. Strength for THF adjusted to +12 modifier, still +10 for two-weapon fighting.

Talya
2007-04-14, 12:09 PM
Interesting.

Problems with this:

For the dual weilder, you've got TWF, ITWF, GTWF, OTWF. I'm assuming you managed WF and WS since you are using two of the same weapons. That's 6 of 19 feats used on dual weilding. You could add a whole lot of fun to the THF fighter with the 4 extra dual weilding feats.

In order to get GTWF on a fighter, he needs 19 dex. That will lower his strength. Did you factor that into the damage calculations?

NullAshton
2007-04-14, 12:12 PM
Uh... no, not quite. I kind of went for the simple route, and assumed 10 strength. I'll think of a way to factor that in soon.

EDIT: Adjustments completed. Two-weapon Fighting is still superior for 2d6 and 3d6 damages.

Rigeld2
2007-04-14, 12:19 PM
Making the 2hander have a 20 STR, and the TWFer have a 16 STR would be mostly realistic... the 2hander should probably be somewhere near 28, but some people would argue that the DM should be smacked for allowing such overpowered magic.

Matthew
2007-04-14, 12:21 PM
Null, show your working. This doesn't make much sense as it stands.

Catch
2007-04-14, 12:25 PM
You forgot to take into account that if he's dual-wielding bastard swords, that's going to take a bite out the TWF fighter's damage.

The issue I have with your chart is that it assumes that every attack connects.

Rigeld2
2007-04-14, 12:28 PM
Null, show your working. This doesn't make much sense as it stands.QFT

1234567

Matthew
2007-04-14, 12:31 PM
There are so many variables involved with this sort of calculation, not least of which the effect of magic - in particular Speed Weapons.

Here's the junk from the last time I did this up to Level 10:

Level 1


Fighter 1 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave,
[Base Attack Bonus (1) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (1) + Flanking (2)] = (3 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Power Attack (2)] = (2D6+2, 9.0)

Fighter 1 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave,
[Base Attack Bonus (1) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (1) + Flanking (2)] = (3 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+1, 5.5)

Fighter 1 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (1 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8)] = (1D8, 4.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (1 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8)] = (1D8, 4.5)

Rogue 1 A (Short Sword)

Feats: [-], [-],
= (2 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (1D6)] = (2D6, 7.0)

[B]Rogue 1 B (Two Short Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting,
= (0 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (1D6)] = (2D6, 7.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (0) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (0 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (1D6)] = (2D6, 7.0)

[B]Attacking Armour Class 10

Fighter 1 A 70% (2D6+2, 9.0)
Fighter 1 B 70% (1D8+1, 5.5)
Fighter 1 C 60% (1D8, 4.5) / 60% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 1 A 65% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 1 B 55% (2D6, 7.0) / 55% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 12

Fighter 1 A 60% (2D6+2, 9.0)
Fighter 1 B 60% (1D8+1, 5.5)
Fighter 1 C 50% (1D8, 4.5) / 50% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 1 A 55% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 1 B 45% (2D6, 7.0) / 45% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 14

Fighter 1 A 50% (2D6+2, 9.0)
Fighter 1 B 50% (1D8+1, 5.5)
Fighter 1 C 40% (1D8, 4.5) / 40% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 1 A 45% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 1 B 35% (2D6, 7.0) / 35% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 16

Fighter 1 A 40% (2D6+2, 9.0)
Fighter 1 B 40% (1D8+1, 5.5)
Fighter 1 C 30% (1D8, 4.5) / 30% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 1 A 35% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 1 B 25% (2D6, 7.0) / 25% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 18

Fighter 1 A 30% (2D6+2, 9.0)
Fighter 1 B 30% (1D8+1, 5.5)
Fighter 1 C 20% (1D8, 4.5) / 20% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 1 A 25% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 1 B 15% (2D6, 7.0) / 15% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 20

Fighter 1 A 20% (2D6+2, 9.0)
Fighter 1 B 20% (1D8+1, 5.5)
Fighter 1 C 10% (1D8, 4.5) / 10% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 1 A 15% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 1 B 5% (2D6, 7.0) / 5% (2D6, 7.0)

Level 2


Fighter 2 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (2) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (2) + Flanking (2)] = (3 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Power Attack (4)] = (2D6+4, 11.0)

Fighter 2 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (2) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (2) + Flanking (2)] = (3 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+2, 6.5)

Fighter 2 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (2) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (3 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8)] = (1D8, 4.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (2) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (3 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8)] = (1D8, 4.5)

Rogue 2 A (Short Sword)

Feats: [-], [-],
= (3 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (1D6)] = (2D6, 7.0)

[B]Rogue 2 B (Two Short Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting,
= (1 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (1D6)] = (2D6, 7.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (1 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (1D6)] = (2D6, 7.0)

[B]Attacking Armour Class 10

Fighter 2 A 70% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 2 B 70% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 2 C 70% (1D8, 4.5) / 70% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 2 A 70% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 2 B 60% (2D6, 7.0) / 60% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 12

Fighter 2 A 60% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 2 B 60% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 2 C 60% (1D8, 4.5) / 60% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 2 A 60% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 2 B 50% (2D6, 7.0) / 50% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 14

Fighter 2 A 50% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 2 B 50% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 2 C 50% (1D8, 4.5) / 50% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 2 A 50% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 2 B 40% (2D6, 7.0) / 40% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 16

Fighter 2 A 40% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 2 B 40% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 2 C 40% (1D8, 4.5) / 40% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 2 A 40% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 2 B 30% (2D6, 7.0) / 30% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 18

Fighter 2 A 30% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 2 B 30% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 2 C 30% (1D8, 4.5) / 30% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 2 A 30% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 2 B 20% (2D6, 7.0) / 20% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 20

Fighter 2 A 20% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 2 B 20% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 2 C 20% (1D8, 4.5) / 20% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 2 A 20% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 2 B 10% (2D6, 7.0) / 10% (2D6, 7.0)

Level 3


Fighter 3 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (2) + Flanking (2)] = (4 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Power Attack (4)] = (2D6+4, 11.0)

Fighter 3 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (2) + Flanking (2)] = (4 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+2, 6.5)

Fighter 3 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack,
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (0) + Flanking (2)] = (4 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Power Attack (0)] = (1D8, 4.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (0) + Flanking (2)] = (4 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Power Attack (0)] = (1D8, 4.5)

Rogue 3 A (Short Sword)

Feats: [-], [-], [-],
= (4 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (2D6)] = (3D6, 10.5)

[B]Rogue 3 B (Two Short Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse,
= (2 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (2D6)] = (3D6, 10.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (2 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (2D6)] = (3D6, 10.5)

[B]Attacking Armour Class 10

Fighter 3 A 75% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 3 B 75% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 3 C 75% (1D8, 4.5) / 75% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 3 A 75% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 3 B 65% (3D6, 10.5) / 65% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 12

Fighter 3 A 65% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 3 B 65% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 3 C 65% (1D8, 4.5) / 65% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 3 A 65% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 3 B 55% (3D6, 10.5) / 55% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 14

Fighter 3 A 55% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 3 B 55% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 3 C 55% (1D8, 4.5) / 55% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 3 A 55% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 3 B 45% (3D6, 10.5) / 45% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 16

Fighter 3 A 45% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 3 B 45% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 3 C 45% (1D8, 4.5) / 45% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 3 A 45% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 3 B 35% (3D6, 10.5) / 35% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 18

Fighter 3 A 35% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 3 B 35% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 3 C 35% (1D8, 4.5) / 35% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 3 A 35% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 3 B 25% (3D6, 10.5) / 25% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 20

Fighter 3 A 25% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 3 B 25% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 3 C 25% (1D8, 4.5) / 25% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 3 A 25% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 3 B 15% (3D6, 10.5) / 15% (3D6, 10.5)

Level 4


Fighter 4 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (4) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (2) + Flanking (2)] = (5 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (4)] = (2D6+6, 13.0)

Fighter 4 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (4) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (2) + Flanking (2)] = (5 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+4, 8.5)

Fighter 4 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (4) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (0) + Flanking (2)] = (5 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (0)] = (1D8+2, 6.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (4) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (0) + Flanking (2)] = (5 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (0)] = (1D8+2, 6.5)

Rogue 4 A (Short Sword)

Feats: None Relevant,
= (5 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (2D6)] = (3D6, 10.5)

[B]Rogue 4 B (Two Short Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse,
= (3 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (2D6)] = (3D6, 10.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (3) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (3 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (2D6)] = (3D6, 10.5)

[B]Attacking Armour Class 10

Fighter 4 A 80% (2D6+6, 13.0)
Fighter 4 B 80% (1D8+4, 8.5)
Fighter 4 C 80% (1D8+2, 6.5) / 80% (1D8, 6.5)
Rogue 4 A 80% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 4 B 70% (3D6, 10.5) / 70% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 12

Fighter 4 A 70% (2D6+6, 13.0)
Fighter 4 B 70% (1D8+4, 8.5)
Fighter 4 C 70% (1D8+2, 6.5) / 70% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Rogue 4 A 70% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 4 B 60% (3D6, 10.5) / 60% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 14

Fighter 4 A 60% (2D6+6, 13.0)
Fighter 4 B 60% (1D8+4, 8.5)
Fighter 4 C 60% (1D8+2, 6.5) / 60% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Rogue 4 A 60% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 4 B 50% (3D6, 10.5) / 50% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 16

Fighter 4 A 50% (2D6+6, 13.0)
Fighter 4 B 50% (1D8+4, 8.5)
Fighter 4 C 50% (1D8+2, 6.5) / 50% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Rogue 4 A 50% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 4 B 40% (3D6, 10.5) / 40% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 18

Fighter 4 A 40% (2D6+6, 13.0)
Fighter 4 B 40% (1D8+4, 8.5)
Fighter 4 C 40% (1D8+2, 6.5) / 40% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Rogue 4 A 40% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 4 B 30% (3D6, 10.5) / 30% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 20

Fighter 4 A 30% (2D6+6, 13.0)
Fighter 4 B 30% (1D8+4, 8.5)
Fighter 4 C 30% (1D8+2, 6.5) / 30% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Rogue 4 A 30% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 4 B 20% (3D6, 10.5) / 20% (3D6, 10.5)

Level 5


Fighter 5 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (5) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (5 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (6)] = (2D6+6, 15.0)

Fighter 5 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (5) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (5 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Fighter 5 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (5) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1) + Flanking (2)] = (5 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (5) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1) + Flanking (2)] = (5 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)

Rogue 5 A (Short Sword)

Feats: None Relevant,
= 5 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (3D6)] = (4D6, 14.0)

[B]Rogue 5 B (Two Short Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse,
= 3 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (3D6)] = (4D6, 14.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (3) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 3 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (3D6)] = (4D6, 14.0)

[B]Attacking Armour Class 10

Fighter 5 A 80% (2D6+8, 15.0)
Fighter 5 B 80% (1D8+5, 9.5)
Fighter 5 C 80% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 80% (1D8+3, 7.5)
Rogue 5 A 80% (4D6, 14.0)
Rogue 5 B 70% (4D6, 14.0) / 70% (4D6, 14.0)

Attacking Armour Class 12

Fighter 5 A 70% (2D6+8, 15.0)
Fighter 5 B 70% (1D8+5, 9.5)
Fighter 5 C 70% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 70% (1D8+3, 7.5)
Rogue 5 A 70% (4D6, 14.0)
Rogue 5 B 60% (4D6, 14.0) / 60% (4D6, 14.0)

Attacking Armour Class 14

Fighter 5 A 60% (2D6+8, 15.0)
Fighter 5 B 60% (1D8+5, 9.5)
Fighter 5 C 60% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 60% (1D8+3, 7.5)
Rogue 5 A 60% (4D6, 14.0)
Rogue 5 B 50% (4D6, 14.0) / 50% (4D6, 14.0)

Attacking Armour Class 16

Fighter 5 A 50% (2D6+8, 15.0)
Fighter 5 B 50% (1D8+5, 9.5)
Fighter 5 C 50% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 50% (1D8+3, 7.5)
Rogue 5 A 50% (4D6, 14.0)
Rogue 5 B 40% (4D6, 14.0) / 40% (4D6, 14.0)

Attacking Armour Class 18

Fighter 5 A 40% (2D6+8, 15.0)
Fighter 5 B 40% (1D8+5, 9.5)
Fighter 5 C 40% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 40% (1D8+3, 7.5)
Rogue 5 A 40% (4D6, 14.0)
Rogue 5 B 30% (4D6, 14.0) / 30% (4D6, 14.0)

Attacking Armour Class 20

Fighter 5 A 30% (2D6+8, 15.0)
Fighter 5 B 30% (1D8+5, 9.5)
Fighter 5 C 30% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 30% (1D8+3, 7.5)
Rogue 5 A 30% (4D6, 14.0)
Rogue 5 B 20% (4D6, 14.0) / 20% (4D6, 14.0)

Level 6


Fighter 6 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (6) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (6 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (6)] = (2D6+6, 15.0)

Fighter 6 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (6) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (6 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Fighter 6 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (6) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1) + Flanking (2)] = (6 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (6) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1) + Flanking (2)] = (6 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)

Rogue 6 A (Short Sword)

Feats: None Relevant,
= 6 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (3D6)] = (4D6, 14.0)

[B]Rogue 6 B (Two Short Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-],
= 4 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (3D6)] = (4D6, 14.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (4) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 4 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (3D6)] = (4D6, 14.0)

Level 7


[B]Fighter 7 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (7) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (7 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (6)] = (2D6+6, 15.0)

Fighter 7 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (7) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (7 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Fighter 7 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-]
[Base Attack Bonus (7) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1) + Flanking (2)] = (7 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (7) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1) + Flanking (2)] = (7 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)

Rogue 7 A (Short Sword)

Feats: None Relevant,
= 7 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (4D6)] = (5D6, 17.5)

[B]Rogue 7 B (Two Short Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-],
= 5 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (4D6)] = (5D6, 17.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (5) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 5 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (4D6)] = (5D6, 17.5)

Level 8


[B]Fighter 8 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword)
[Base Attack Bonus (8) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (4) + Flanking (2)] = (8 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (8)] = (2D6+10, 17.0)

Fighter 8 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (8) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (4) + Flanking (2)] = (8 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+6, 10.5)

Fighter 8 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (8) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (2) + Flanking (2)] = (8 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+4, 8.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (8) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (2) + Flanking (2)] = (8 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+4, 8.5)

Rogue 8 A (Short Sword)

Feats: None Relevant,
= 8 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (4D6)] = (5D6, 17.5)

[B]Rogue 8 B (Two Short Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-],
= 6 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (4D6)] = (5D6, 17.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (6) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 6 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (4D6)] = (5D6, 17.5)

Level 9


[B]Fighter 9 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (9) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = (8 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (10)] = (2D6+12, 19.0)

Fighter 9 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (9) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = (8 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)

Fighter 9 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (9) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (9 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+4, 9.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (9) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (9 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+4, 9.5)

Rogue 9 A (Short Sword)

Feats: [-], [-], [-], [-], [-],
= 8 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (5D6)] = (6D6, 21.0)

[B]Rogue 9 B (Two Short Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting,
= 6 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (5D6)] = (6D6, 21.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (6) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 6 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (5D6)] = (6D6, 21.0)

Level 10


[B]Fighter 10 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (10) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = (9 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (10)] = (2D6+12, 19.0)

Fighter 10 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (10) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = (9 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)

Fighter 10 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (10) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (9 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+4, 9.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (10) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (9 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+4, 9.5)

Rogue 10 A (Short Sword)

Feats: [-], [-], [-], [-], [-],
= 9 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (5D6)] = (6D6, 21.0)

[B]Rogue 10 B (Two Short Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (7) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 7 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (5D6)] = (6D6, 21.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (7) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 7 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (5D6)] = (6D6, 21.0)

NullAshton
2007-04-14, 12:33 PM
What do you mean it takes a bite out of the fighter's damage? I corrected for the -2 penalty by assuming that the TWF fighter power attacks for 2 points less than the listed power attack value. Thus, for the basic value of 2 power attack, THF gets 4 damage with every attack while the TWF fighter gets no extra damage with every attack. I corrected for that.

The way I calculated the stuff is simple. I took the base average damage for the weapons(7 for greatsword, 5.5 for bastard swords) and then added the base +5 enchantment for each weapon. Next I added the strength, 1.5 for each attack on the THF side. Strength for TWF is a bit more complicated, 4 attacks get 1.0 strength bonus, and three attacks get 0.5 strength bonus. Finnally, I added power attack. 4/10/20/30/40 per attack for THF, 0/3/8/13/18 per attack for TWF.

The damage calculations are again calculated so that BOTH fighters have the EXACT same chance of hitting their opponent. This thusly eliminates one of the factors, making my job of calculating a lot easier.

Incidentally, I have 34 strength for the THF, and 31 strength for the TWF guy. Yes, it assumes powerful magic, yes it means that the TWF takes cuts in other attributes. Mind you though, strength is one of the areas where the THF has the advantage, thusly the powerful magic aspect INCREASES the power of the two-handed fighting build.

EDIT: You have a point with speed weapons, I'll see if adding an extra attack for both TWF and THF does anything.

EDITEDIT: Also note that TWF by my calculations is ONLY effective if you have two +1d6 damage enchantments or more.

Matthew
2007-04-14, 12:33 PM
And levels 11 to 15:

Level 11


Fighter 11 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (11) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = (10 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (10)] = (2D6+12, 19.0)

Fighter 11 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (11) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = (10 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)

Fighter 11 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (11) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (10 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+4, 9.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (11) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (10 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+4, 9.5)

Rogue 11 A (Short Sword)

Feats: [-], [-], [-], [-], [-],
= 10 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (6D6)] = (7D6, 24.5.0)

[B]Rogue 11 B (Two Short Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting,
= 8 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (6D6)] = (7D6, 24.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (8) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 8 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (6D6)] = (7D6, 24.5)

Level 12


[B]Fighter 12 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (12) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = (11 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (10)] = (2D6+14, 21.0)

Fighter 12 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (12) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = (11 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+9, 13.5)

Fighter 12 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Greater Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (12) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (11 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (12) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (11 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)

Rogue 12 A (Short Sword)

Feats: [-], [-], [-], [-], [-], [-],
= 11 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (6D6)] = (7D6, 24.5)

[B]Rogue 12 B (Two Short Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-],
= 9 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (6D6)] = (7D6, 24.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (9) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 9 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (6D6)] = (7D6, 24.5)

Level 13


[B]Fighter 13 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (13) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = (11 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (12)] = (2D6+16, 23.0)

Fighter 13 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (13) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = (11 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (1D8+10, 14.5)

Fighter 13 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation, Greater Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (13) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (4) + Flanking (2)] = (11 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+8, 12.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (13) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (4) + Flanking (2)] = (11 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+8, 12.5)

Rogue 13 A (Short Sword)

Feats: [-], [-], [-], [-], [-], [-],
= 11 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (7D6)] = (8D6, 28.0)

[B]Rogue 13 B (Two Short Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-],
= 9 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (7D6)] = (8D6, 28.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (9) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 9 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (7D6)] = (8D6, 28.0)

Level 14


[B]Fighter 14 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (14) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = (12 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (12)] = (2D6+16, 23.0)

Fighter 14 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (14) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = (12 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (1D8+10, 14.5)

Fighter 14 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (14) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (4) + Flanking (2)] = (12 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+8, 12.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (14) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (4) + Flanking (2)] = (12 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+8, 12.5)

Rogue 14 A (Short Sword)

Feats: [-], [-], [-], [-], [-], [-],
= 12 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (7D6)] = (8D6, 28.0)

[B]Rogue 14 B (Two Short Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-],
= 10 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (7D6)] = (8D6, 28.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (10) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 10 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (7D6)] = (8D6, 28.0)

Level 15


[B]Fighter 15 A (Great Sword)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (15) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = (13 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (12)] = (2D6+16, 23.0)

Fighter 15 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)

Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (15) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = (13 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (1D8+10, 14.5)

Fighter 15 C (Two Long Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (15) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (4) + Flanking (2)] = (13 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+8, 12.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (15) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (4) + Flanking (2)] = (13 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+8, 12.5)

Rogue 15 A (Short Sword)

Feats: [-], [-], [-], [-], [-], [-], [-],
= 13 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (8D6)] = (9D6, 31.5)

[B]Rogue 15 B (Two Short Swords)

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (11) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 11 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (8D6)] = (9D6, 31.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (11) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 11 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (8D6)] = (9D6, 31.5)

Talya
2007-04-14, 12:40 PM
You forgot to take into account that if he's dual-wielding bastard swords, that's going to take a bite out the TWF fighter's damage.

The issue I have with your chart is that it assumes that every attack connects.


I think he accounted for that by equalizing their actual attack bonus through power attack, if I understand him properly.

It didn't factor in the lower strength, though, which will be huge.

Rigeld2
2007-04-14, 12:44 PM
Yeah... 19 DEX and 31 STR for the TWFer, and the THFer only has a 34 STR?

Thats... odd.

Matthew
2007-04-14, 12:45 PM
What you probably should do is consider the case of a Character with the choice as to whether use a Two Handed Bastard Sword or Two Bastard Swords. Any Two Weapon Bastard Sword Fighter worth his salt ought to be Charging with a Bastard Sword Two Handed and then Quick Drawing a second Bastard Sword when the chance to execute a Full attack appears.

So, from round to round, the Bastard Sword Fighter is the guy who needs to be confident that he is doing more average damage by way of Two Weapon Fighting or Two Handed Fighting (Don't forget that a Two Handed Fighter can make Two Handed Attack and an Of Hand Improved Unarmed Strike or Armour Spike Attack)

NullAshton
2007-04-14, 12:45 PM
Matthew, again, you're not calculating the damage correct. WITHOUT EXTRA DAMAGE, two-weapon fighting is still inferior. Yet as my calculations show, about 2d6 extra damage is where two-weapon fighting becomes superior. Still doing calculations for weapons of speed anyway.

Strength difference was only about 3 in my calculations. 18 strength and 16 starting dexterity for TWF build, with three more attribute points going into dexterity ovber level up. You take hits in other attributes, but dexterity is useful for other things as well. Let's just assume that the other fighter took a starting dex of 16 as well to get the maximum 3 dex bonus of mithral full plate.

EDIT: That quick-drawing bastard sword thing would be effective, yes, not to mention cinematic. Though it wouldn't alter calculations any, and thus isn't intergral to the comparison between a greatsword and two bastard swords.

Talya
2007-04-14, 12:49 PM
Just for style sake, call them Katana. Same stats, I know, but dual weilding bastard-swords would look silly. A pair of Katana? Well, practicality be damned, they at least LOOK light enough to be possible.

Matthew
2007-04-14, 12:50 PM
Those calculations only show what is possible without magic, they are just the basis for calculating this sort of thing. By all means, add on extra damage to those and the cost involved. The point is to show the working.

Don't forget Armour Spikes and Unarmed Strike.

[Edit] Nah, Katana are just Long Swords *runs for the hills*

Rigeld2
2007-04-14, 12:50 PM
Strength difference was only about 3 in my calculations. 18 strength and 16 starting dexterity for TWF build, with three more attribute points going into dexterity ovber level up. You take hits in other attributes, but dexterity is useful for other things as well. Let's just assume that the other fighter took a starting dex of 16 as well to get the maximum 3 dex bonus of mithral full plate.
Poor builds - the TWFer doesnt get GTWF until level 20, or the THFer is way ahead in damage (due to higher STR) for thier entire career.

Not sure how much that relates to the chart, just stating a fact.

Dausuul
2007-04-14, 12:52 PM
[Edited for mistake in damage values...]

Okay, hold on a minute. You are supposing that the TWF fighter wields two bastard swords and the THF fighter wields one greatsword, right?

So the TWF fighter is attacking at -2 for 2d10 damage; the THF fighter is attacking at no penalty for 3d6. We can disregard Strength, since both will be getting +1.5xStr to damage. Likewise, each one gets a 2-for-1 return on Power Attack.

The only difference we have to worry about, then, is that -2 attack penalty the TWF fighter suffers. We can compensate for that by having the THF fighter put an extra 2 into power attack, and end up with both fighters attacking at -2. The TWF fighter does 2d10 (average 11); the THF fighter does 2d6+4 (average 11).

Even money. But the TWF fighter has had to spend one to three feats to get TWF/Improved TWF/Greater TWF, plus another feat for Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and has somehow had to get a 19 Dex at the expense of some other stat.

Now, there are magic weapons to consider. We'll assume each has equal money to spend on weapons:

2,350 gp: TWF has masterwork bastard swords, THF has a +1 greatsword. TWF's damage is 11, THF's damage is 12.
4,670 gp: TWF has +1 bastard swords, THF has a +1 greatsword. TWF's damage is 13, THF's damage is 12.
16,670 gp: TWF has +2 bastard swords, THF has a +2 greatsword. TWF's damage is 15, THF's damage is 13.
36,670 gp: TWF has +3 bastard swords, THF has a +4 greatsword. TWF's damage is 17, THF's damage is 16. [The THF is spending another point on Power Attack here, to keep their attack bonuses equal.]
64,670 gp: TWF has +4 bastard swords, THF has a +5 greatsword. TWF's damage is 19, THF's damage is 18.
100,670 gp: TWF has +5 bastard swords, THF has a +5 wounding greatsword. TWF's damage is 21, THF's damage is 18 and 1 Con.

So the TWF is at most 2-3 points of damage ahead of the THF. On the other hand, the THF is almost certainly at least 2 and probably 4 points of Strength ahead of the TWF. Add in feats and the THF still wins.

Talya
2007-04-14, 12:53 PM
Those calculations only show wha is possible without magic, they are just the basis for calculating this sort of thing. By all means, add on extra damage to those and the cost involved.

Don't forget Armour Spikes and Unarmed Strike.

[Edit] Nah, Katana are just Long Swords *runs for the hills*

Additional damage and effects to weapons heavily favor two weapon fighting (and increase the cost of it by a small fortune.) Just think, use a pair of vorpal kukri and forget about the oversized thing and damage. You've got 7 chances per round to roll a 20 and end it...odds are you get there within 3 rounds...

Matthew
2007-04-14, 12:55 PM
Not so, if you have a Two Weapon Fighting Character with Enchanted Armour Spikes and a Two Handed Weapon... seriously, it's a joke, but it's totally legal. But yeah, Vorpal Weapons change the game variables again.

NullAshton
2007-04-14, 12:57 PM
Poor builds - the TWFer doesnt get GTWF until level 20, or the THFer is way ahead in damage (due to higher STR) for thier entire career.

Not sure how much that relates to the chart, just stating a fact.

You actually really just need one point in strength... that would get the TWFer a -7 total average damage.

By my calculations, the TWFer gets GTWF at level 12. Three points of dexterity finished at level 12, thus qualifying for the feat then.

Incidentally... weapon specialization would increase the total TWF damage by 12 relative to THF...

Talya
2007-04-14, 12:58 PM
So the TWF fighter is attacking at -2 for 2d10 damage; the THF fighter is attacking at no penalty for 3d6.


Last time I checked, a medium greatsword was 2d6.

Rigeld2
2007-04-14, 01:00 PM
So the TWF fighter is attacking at -2 for 2d10 damage; the THF fighter is attacking at no penalty for 3d6. We can disregard Strength, since both will be getting +1.5xStr to damage. Likewise, each one gets a 2-for-1 return on Power Attack.
Um.
Greatsword
50 gp
2d6
19-20/×2


Where are you getting 3d6?

NullAshton
2007-04-14, 01:00 PM
Last time I checked, a medium greatsword was 2d6.

Correct, thus it would be 7 average base damage per attack with a greatsword, with no other bonuses.

Rigeld2
2007-04-14, 01:01 PM
Incidentally... weapon specialization would increase the total TWF damage by 12 relative to THF...
Umm...
THF attacks - 4
TWF attacks - 7
Difference - 3
Difference multiplied by the Weapon Spec damage - 6

How are you getting 12?

NullAshton
2007-04-14, 01:02 PM
Umm...
THF attacks - 4
TWF attacks - 7
Difference - 3
Difference multiplied by the Weapon Spec damage - 6

How are you getting 12?

Greater weapon specialization stacks with weapon specialization.

Matthew
2007-04-14, 01:02 PM
Probably from Greater Weapon Specialisation.

[Simu Ninja]

Rigeld2
2007-04-14, 01:08 PM
Greater weapon specialization stacks with weapon specialization.
So Greater Weapon Spec would increase the damage by 12... Weapon Spec only increases it by 6.

When analyzing something, try to be exact.

NullAshton
2007-04-14, 01:11 PM
So Greater Weapon Spec would increase the damage by 12... Weapon Spec only increases it by 6.

When analyzing something, try to be exact.

Sorry, just generally assumed that if you got weapon specialization, you'd get greater weapon specialization too.

Dausuul
2007-04-14, 01:22 PM
Last time I checked, a medium greatsword was 2d6.

D'oh! Too much Iron Heroes and people with Mighty Build. Error fixed, which puts the two closer to on par... except for the THF's advantage in feats and stats.

Now that I think about it, I also forgot to factor in Weapon Specialization. That might actually give the TWF an edge... except, again, for all the feats the TWF has already had to spend just keeping up.

Talya
2007-04-14, 01:26 PM
D'oh! Too much Iron Heroes and people with Mighty Build. Error fixed, which puts the two closer to on par... except for the THF's advantage in feats and stats.

Now that I think about it, I also forgot to factor in Weapon Specialization. That might actually give the TWF an edge... except, again, for all the feats the TWF has already had to spend just keeping up.


Hey, you can still use Mighty Build. Then the bastard swords are 2d8...

Two Weapon Fighting is awful as long as it costs 3+ feats to max it out.

Dausuul
2007-04-14, 01:29 PM
Hey, you can still use Mighty Build. Then the bastard swords are 2d8...

Two Weapon Fighting is awful as long as it costs 3+ feats to max it out.

Hmm. Suppose one house-ruled that Two-Weapon Fighting came with Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting included. Think that would make it balanced?

Jack_Simth
2007-04-14, 01:34 PM
Interesting.

Problems with this:

For the dual weilder, you've got TWF, ITWF, GTWF, OTWF. I'm assuming you managed WF and WS since you are using two of the same weapons. That's 6 of 19 feats used on dual weilding. You could add a whole lot of fun to the THF fighter with the 4 extra dual weilding feats.

In order to get GTWF on a fighter, he needs 19 dex. That will lower his strength. Did you factor that into the damage calculations?

He doesn't necessarily need a base 19 Dex. He needs a 13 dex and +6 Gauntlets of Dexterity. At 20th, that's not going to dig into your Wealth By Level overly much (it's under 5%); as it increases touch AC (very important at 20th!) and Reflex saves, it's a very practical decision as well, even for the two-handed fighter. As it is a 13, it's not going to cut into a point buy overly much as well - the 5 points of Point Buy for a Dex of 13 is only a 2 or three stat point difference on a stat you want high (the point difference between a strength of 18 and 16 is 6 points; 17 and 15 is 5 points; 16 and a 14 is 4 points).

Most people that go Fighter-20 pick up Weapon Focus and Weapon Specilization anyway - just because the Fighter has bonus feats for that kind of thing coming out the wazoo, and the 5% increase in damage for Weapon Focus, and the +1/hit for Weapon Specilization do help (although not much). The Greatsword wielder probably is dealing with those same two; it's a four-feat difference... or it would be, if he didn't need Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) to wield it one-handed.

Core only, using Shortswords, it's a three-feat difference, with the same critical threat range and base weapon damage.

Let's see... using enhancement + specials (the + doesn't refer to pure enhancement bonus here)
Two +1 Shortswords cost 4,620 gp; one +2 Greatsword costs 8,350 gp;
Two +2 Shortswords cost 16,620 gp; one +3 Greatsword costs 18,350 gp;
Two +3 Shortswords cost 36,620 gp; one +4 Greatsword costs 32,350 gp;
Two +4 Shortswords cost 64,620 gp; one +5 Greatsword costs 50,350 gp;
Two +5 Shortswords cost 100,620 gp; one +6 Greatsword costs 72,350 gp;
Two +6 Shortswords cost 144,620 gp; one +7 Greatsword costs 98,350 gp;
Two +7 Shortswords cost 196,620 gp; one +8 Greatsword costs 128,350 gp;
Two +8 Shortswords cost 256,620 gp; one +9 Greatsword costs 162,350 gp;
Two +9 Shortswords cost 324,620 gp; one +10 Greatsword costs 200,350 gp.

with a 10k Weapon Budget, it's two +1 Shortswords vs. a +2 Greatsword;
With a 20k Weapon Budget, it's two +2 Shortswords vs. a +3 Greatsword;
With a 40k Weapon Budget, it's two +3 Shortswords vs. a +4 Greatsword;
With a 101k Weapon Budget, it's two +5 Shortswords vs. a +7 Greatsword;
With a 150k Weapon Budget, it's two +6 Shortswords vs. a +8 Greatsword;
With a 201k Weapon Budget, it's two +7 Shortswords vs. a +10 Greatsword.


Let's give our Fighter-20's a 201k weapon budget (basically the worst case). Just for giggles. +3 enhancement bonus difference. Giving the two-handed weapon Fighter +2 Strength over the two-weapon Fighter (explained above), power attacking for the difference in to-hit rolls, ignoring "variable fixed" bonuses to damage except where they're different (so Mr. Greatsword Fighter is treated as having a strength of 12 (1.5 damage, +1 Power Attack) - the difference between the two builds - power attack starting at +6 for the two-handed fighter and +0 for the two-weapon fighter (to give them the same base chance to hit). They both have the same base weapon damage if all attacks hit (2*1d6 for the two-weapon fighter and 2d6 for the Greatsword wielder), the same threat range and multiplier, and so on. Table head lists additional power attack above and beyond those assumptions, and the amount of extra damage each style deals (do remember - the "base" is ). Treating both as a pure Enhancement bonus for now, and assuming both of them have Weapon Focus and Weapon Specilization for their choices. Remember - this is a Core Only comparison; there aren't that many good choices for the Fighter-20.

{table=Head]Extra Power Attack|0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10
Greatsword|24.5|26.5|28.5|30.5|32.5|34.5|36.5|38.5 |40.5|42.5|44.5
Two Shortswords|16|18|20|22|24|26|28|30|32|34|36
Difference|8.5|8.5|8.5|8.5|8.5|8.5|8.5|8.5|8.5|8.5 |8.5[/table]
Not very impressive, huh? Well, let's try it again, only this time, both trade a point of Enhancement bonus for one of the +1d6 damage abilities. It removes a point of Enhancement bonus, and replaces it with +1d6 damage (3.5, in the table below); that's a net +2.5 (1d6 once, -1 for the lost enhcancement bonus) for the Greatsword wielder, +5 for the two-hander (1d6 twice, -1 twice for the lost enhancement bonus).
{table=Head]+1d6, Extra Power Attack|0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10
Greatsword|27|29|31|33|35|37|39|41|43|45|47
Two Shortswords|21|23|25|27|29|31|33|35|37|39|41
Difference|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6[/table]
Lookie lookie... the Difference changed. Let's do that again; we're trading another point of Enhancement for a +1d6 ability.
{table=Head]+2d6, Extra Power Attack|0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10
Greatsword|29.5|31.5|33.5|35.5|37.5|39.5|41.5|43.5 |45.5|47.5|49.5
Two Shortswords|26|28|30|32|34|36|38|40|42|44|46
Difference|3.5|3.5|3.5|3.5|3.5|3.5|3.5|3.5|3.5|3.5 |3.5[/table]
Noticing a pattern? Let's do that again... and, as it should be obvious by now, the power attack doesn't affect the difference between the two builds on a "normal" target, so we'll truncate the table.
{table=Head]+3d6|Damage Modifier
Greatsword|32
Two Shortswords|31
Difference|1[/table]
And one last time...
{table=Head]+4d6|Damage Modifier
Greatsword|34.5
Two Shortswords|36
Difference|1.5 (in favor of Two Shortswords)[/table]

Now, at the +3d6 damage threshold, we also have another issue; the Fighter's Cleric or Wizard-20 friend can put GMW on his shortswords, which throws off the calculations (it's +5 weapons with +3d6 damage, for a +8 equivalent, while the Greatsword Wielder is still working with a +10 equivalent). The affect on the table is that the Greatsword Fighter drops a point of power attack (two points of damage) while the two-weapon fighter gets an extra two points of damage (one for each weapon), pushing the difference between the two +4 points of damage in favor of two-weapon fighting (in addition to the +2.5 points of damage in favor of the two-weapon fighter for each change to +1d6 abilities). Each additional point changed over in the same manner does the same, until you hit the +6d6 threshold where the Greatsword fighter can get the same boon... but that just changes things so that the Greatsword Fighter doesn't have to continue losing to Power Attack and lost enhancement; the Two-weapon fighter still benefits from the "free" extra point of damage on the off-hand weapon; each transmutation to +d6 abilities at that point still benefits the two-weapon fighter by one point of damage. At a three feat difference.

Against a "soft" target (no applicable DR, no applicable energy resistence), the Two-Weapon Shortsword fighter has an advantage at +3d6 enchantments and up; against a "hard" target (applicable DR and/or energy resistence) the Two-Weapon Shortsword fighter will lose out (as the DR/energy resistence applies twice).

Also of note: Except against things with an applicable energy resistence, a +1d6 ability is just barely worth more than a +1 Enhancement bonus with a point of two-handed Power Attack; +1 Enhancement damage and +2 Power Attack (trading the enhancment to attack to damage) gets +3 damage, while the +1d6 averages +3.5 damage... until you get into crits and things, or high AC's where you can't afford to spend as much on Power Attack.

Edit: Oh, and adding in Greater Weapon Specilization pushes things one point in favor of the two-weapon fighter - making them exactly balanced in damage vs. a "soft" target (as I defined it above) at three +1d6 +1 equivalent enhancements.

Edit 2: If you wanted to cheese it out, the two-weapon fighter instead uses Armor Spikes and a greatsword - except for the money savings on enhancement bonuses, all the benefits of the two-handed style with most of the benefits of the two-weapon style (loses out on counting Weapon Focus, Weapon Specilization, and it's ilk twice. Wielding primary weapon in two hands? Check. Light off-hand weapon? Check.

Edit 3: D'oh! Speed Weapons (also Haste Effects)! Well, they're kinda hard to figure in, really. It's one extra hit at highest BAB for both builds - definately an effect in favor of the two-handed fighter, though.

Matthew
2007-04-14, 01:35 PM
Making Two Weapon Fighting Balanced is tricky territory. Certainly, folding the Tree into one Feat would make it more available, but it's most significant problem lies in the necessity of a Full Attack. If you could attack with Two Weapons as part of a Charge or as a Standard Action (i.e. One Primary, One Off Hand) that would go a long way towards making it viable. Speed Weapons would also have to be addressed, so that they 'stacked' in some way.

By then, thoug, you have made Two Weapon Fighting potentially 'better' than Two Handed, so that it becomes sensible to keep the Feat Chain.

Talya
2007-04-14, 01:37 PM
Good point on the gauntlets of dexterity.

Huh.

Talya
2007-04-14, 01:38 PM
Making Two Weapon Fighting Balanced is tricky territory. Certainly, folding the Tree into one Feat would make it more available, but it's most significant problem lies in the necessity of a Full Attack. If you could attack with Two Weapons as part of a Charge or as a Standard Action (i.e. One Primary, One Off Hand) that would go a long way towards making it viable. Speed Weapons would also have to be addressed, so that they 'stacked' in some way.

Dual Strike. You can attack with two weapons as a standard action.

It's non optimal, single roll for both, and only the primary can crit, but it's still an improvement.

Matthew
2007-04-14, 01:39 PM
It's yet another Feat, though, and it's not available at Level 1. I can't remember exactly, but it's something like BAB 6. [Edit] Improved Two Weapon Fighting is a prerequisite, which effectively makes it BAB 6. If you are going to fix this sort of thing, it needs to be fixed before then.

Talya
2007-04-14, 01:39 PM
Hmm. Suppose one house-ruled that Two-Weapon Fighting came with Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting included. Think that would make it balanced?

Among the houserules in a campaign I started a few months ago:


Two Weapon Fighting
Two Weapon Fighting feat now grants iterative attacks automatically with BAB. There is also no -2 penalty for dual weilding if you use this feat (unless using an oversized weapon in your off hand).
Two Weapon Defense starts at +3 shield armor, and requires a dexterity of 18 to use.
There is no Improved or greater versions of either of these feats.

Ranger Two Weapon Fighting Combat Style
As the above changes affect the ranger class, their Improved Combat Style and Combat Style Mastery changes. At level 6, their two weapon fighting combat style gives two weapon defense. At level 11, combat style mastery grants "Dual Strike," which allows you to attack with both weapons as a standard action, 1 attack roll. Criticals only apply to the primary weapon.

NullAshton
2007-04-14, 01:41 PM
Incidentally, both weapon specialization and greater weapon specialization give +2 to damage. Both together give you +4 damage.

I am in fact assuming the cleric uses GMW on my two katanas(or bastard swords for those of you without artistic license).

Jack_Simth
2007-04-14, 01:47 PM
Incidentally, both weapon specialization and greater weapon specialization give +2 to damage. Both together give you +4 damage.

I am in fact assuming the cleric uses GMW on my two katanas(or bastard swords for those of you without artistic license).Yep, you're right; my bad. Pushes things even further in favor of the two-weapon fighter, as they apply twice.

Yvian
2007-04-14, 01:52 PM
First, a calculator to help simpilify this problem.

http://direpress.bin.sh/tools/power.html

Second, I think Null is ignoring a couple of items.

Str: the THF gets a 1.5x ability to damage. If we are assuming a 34 Str, that is a +18 to damage. The THF can dail that way down and dail up Power Attack. A single weapon would be +12 with the primary hand and +6 on the off hand. [assuming both have a STR of 34)

Power Attack: the THF gets 2 extra points of damage for every one. PA is not the TWF friend. They only get 1 point with the primary hand and none with their off and. And for critical hits, things are even better. I had a 7th level fighter/barbarian with modest stats [26 point by] w/ a Goliath Greathammer do 120+ damage in a recent session. Mind you these things do not come along every day but...

In short, you just can't look at the average damage. You have to mulple average damage with your average chance to hit. And they you have to adjust for those critical attacks. Only right way to do it.

So this is how it ussuallys breaks down. The TWF will be failing away with multiple attacks. They will either hit often and do little damage or they will hit fewer times and do more damage. The THF however can hit hard and hit often.

Matthew
2007-04-14, 01:55 PM
No Yvian, 1.5 only applies to Damage Bonuses, not Attack Bonuses, and Off Hand Damage can use Power Attack. Only Light Weapons cannot gain Power Attack Damage Bonuses.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-14, 02:09 PM
The problem is when you don't take all the heavy multipliers into account, from things like Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, and Headlong Rush. Also, the other problem occurs here:

Necessary feats to build a, effective Two-Weapon Fighter: TWF, Improved TWF, Dual Strike, Two-Weapon Rend, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (if you're doing this whole bastard sword thing, which is foolhardy. You're burning a feat for a total of 2 extra points of possible max damage?), Greater TWF (not REALLY worth it, but meh).

Feats necessary for effective THF: Power Attack. The rest of his feats can be spent however he wants. Perhaps on Headlong Rush, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper. Or on any other tree he wants.

Sutremaine
2007-04-14, 03:12 PM
If you could attack with Two Weapons as part of a Charge or as a Standard Action (i.e. One Primary, One Off Hand) that would go a long way towards making it viable. Speed Weapons would also have to be addressed, so that they 'stacked' in some way.

By then, thoug, you have made Two Weapon Fighting potentially 'better' than Two Handed, so that it becomes sensible to keep the Feat Chain.

Perhaps a standard-action attack could incur a cumulative -2 penalty for each pair of attacks taken. A thri-kreen with four speed weapons could take eight attacks (if speed weapons stack in that game), but each one would be at -8.
TWF might be potentially better than THF if the feat investment is equalised, but two weapons are more expensive to maintain than one and the extra damage dice that make TWF work aren't always usable.

Talya
2007-04-14, 03:37 PM
two weapons are more expensive to maintain than one and the extra damage dice that make TWF work aren't always usable.

To surpass THF, yes, a pair of weapons are more expensive to maintain. To equal it, not so much.

Its the feat expenditure more than anything that makes TWF suck.

NullAshton
2007-04-14, 03:55 PM
First, a calculator to help simpilify this problem.

http://direpress.bin.sh/tools/power.html

Second, I think Null is ignoring a couple of items.

Str: the THF gets a 1.5x ability to damage. If we are assuming a 34 Str, that is a +18 to damage. The THF can dail that way down and dail up Power Attack. A single weapon would be +12 with the primary hand and +6 on the off hand. [assuming both have a STR of 34)

Power Attack: the THF gets 2 extra points of damage for every one. PA is not the TWF friend. They only get 1 point with the primary hand and none with their off and. And for critical hits, things are even better. I had a 7th level fighter/barbarian with modest stats [26 point by] w/ a Goliath Greathammer do 120+ damage in a recent session. Mind you these things do not come along every day but...

In short, you just can't look at the average damage. You have to mulple average damage with your average chance to hit. And they you have to adjust for those critical attacks. Only right way to do it.

So this is how it ussuallys breaks down. The TWF will be failing away with multiple attacks. They will either hit often and do little damage or they will hit fewer times and do more damage. The THF however can hit hard and hit often.

I accounted for the -2 penalty to attack. In my calculations, the minimum power attack I calculated with for THF is 2 points. This is equivalent to twoweapon fighting with no power attack. Thus, the penalty to attack is taken care of.

EDIT: I also used oversized two weapon fighting in order to power attack with both weapons. I'm wielding two bastard swords. Slightly less damage from PA again, but again that's not where the shiney damage comes from.

Talya
2007-04-14, 04:12 PM
if you wanted to save a feat, you could use OTWF and a pair of longswords or *gaspdrizztclone* scimitars so you can power attack.

Jack_Simth
2007-04-14, 04:31 PM
The lack of Power Attack does put a crimp in the two-weapon fighter, yes; can't pick optimum power attack level for the target. If you thrown in non-core feats (Oversized Two-weapon fighting to permit Power Attack and Dual Strike, for instance), you can't just pick and choose to favor the two-weapon fighter; you need to permit things in a roughly equal fasion (so Shock Trooper and the like).

Hmm... what's the ideal pure-Core two weapon fighting build? Cheese version, obviously - Armor Spikes + Two Handed weapon. So it's Greatsword Fighter (GF) vs. Greatsword and Armor Spikes Fighter (TWF).

We're looking at the difference between them.

Both take Power Attack (they can both use it).

The TWF needs Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting; to make up for it, the GF gets Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Weapon Specilization(Greatsword), and Greater Weapon Focus (Greatsword) to cover the missing feats. Remember: Core Only. +2 to-hit, +2 damage. To make the math simpler (if they both have the same chance to hit, critical threat, critical multiplier, and so on, you can ignore factoring in how difficult it is to hit the target, critcal hits, and so on), he Power Attacks for 2 to balance out the to-hit (so another +4 damage; up to +6). As above, TWF needs a base 13 Dex; this puts the TWF at -2 strength, relative to the GF, but marginally better AC. The GF Power Attacks away the bonus to hit (again) so the GF gets an extra +3.5 dmagage (+2 from 1 point of two-handed Power Attack, +1.5 from Strength on a two-handed weapon). So far, the GF is at +9.5 damage per hit. Two-Weapon Fighting imposes a -2 to-hit for a light weapon in the off hand, so the GF Power Attacks for 2 more to balance it; GF is at +13.5 damage per hit. As above, the TWF splits the wealth between weapons, so the GF can afford a better primary weapon; GF gets a +3 Enhancement bonus over the TWF, and power attacks some more for the to-hit difference; +9 more damage, GF is at +22.5 Damage Per Hit, and this is where it stops (both can take similar advantage of Haste/Speed Weapons, Improved Critical, Keen, and so on, as both are using Greatswords). If the TWF can get +22.5 Damage Per Hit on his armor spikes (at the same attack bonus, remember - so Power Attack won't work, not that it would anyway, as the Armor Spikes are treated as a light off-hand weapon), the TWF wins against a "soft" opponent (no applicable DR or energy resistences); feats are not avialable for the job, as they are otherwise balanced.

Well, the armor spikes get 1/2 strength bonus to damage, and deal a base of 1d6; we're also looking at a +2 Enhancement bonus to damage and +5 in +equivalent abilities (GF Greatsword is +5 Enhancement and +5 in +equivalent abilities; TWF Greatsword is +2 Enhancement and +5 in +equivalent abilities for purposes of the comparison; Wizard/Cleric buddy of course messes this up royally, but we'll ignore that, as it's mostly in favor of the TWF). If the GF has a Strength score of 34 (18 base, +5 level up, +5 Manual, +6 Belt), the equivalent TWF has a Strength score of 34 (16 base, +5 Level up, +5 Manual, +5 Belt); +7 strength modifier, so +3 damage. The Armor Spikes are already up to 8.5 damage. We need 14 more from somewhere. Well, we've got +5 in equivalents to play with - they're already accounted for on the primary weapon in the comparison, the Armor Spikes get to have their own completely unique set, and it doesn't meaningfully affect the rest of the comparison. Flaming, Frost, and Shock each add +3.5 and are +1 equivalents - so that's +10.5, and we still have +2 enhancement equivalent wiggle room to play with; we have a +2 Enhancement effect to get another +3.5 damage to balance the two. The alignment properties deal an extra +2d6 damage, and are +2 Equivalents. If you can select one that will not hinder you, and will apply to the majority of your opponents, that's another +7 damage from the off-hand Armor spikes - butting them at an extra 26 damage per hit, at which point, we have exceeded the +22.5 required to make them worthwhile, with 3.5 points of wiggle room.

It's all pure core. Both can take advantage of non-core feats as well, and it's not the ideal case for the TWF; the ideal case would have the TWF's primary weapon being basically identical to the GF primary weapon, with the party caster putting Greater Magic Weapon on mundane, non-masterwork spikes.

Sutremaine
2007-04-14, 05:21 PM
Can you use Power Attack with a rapier (or a spiked chain, for that matter)? The weapon description says you can't hold it in two hands to get 1.5 Str bonus, but it doesn't disallow Power Attack.

Jack_Simth
2007-04-14, 05:41 PM
Can you use Power Attack with a rapier (or a spiked chain, for that matter)? The weapon description says you can't hold it in two hands to get 1.5 Str bonus, but it doesn't disallow Power Attack.
Double weapons are specifically addressed in the description of power attack - they are treated as a normal weapon and a light weapon, so now power attacking with both ends, as Power Attack doesn't work with Light Weapons.

Talya
2007-04-14, 05:50 PM
Stupidly, you can use power attack with a rapier.

JaronK
2007-04-14, 06:04 PM
Shouldn't the THF guy have Shock Trooper and Leap Attack?

Jack_Simth
2007-04-14, 06:25 PM
Shouldn't the THF guy have Shock Trooper and Leap Attack?When I'm comparing two things for relative balance, I try to keep them pure core. In fact, I took the time to specify that I was using pure Core for the comparison. In general, you'll get more "broken" things outside of core than inside core. Where do you find Shock Trooper and Leap Attack? I'm fairly certain they aren't in the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, or Monster Manual. As such, they don't play into my example comparison, as you can't expect them to be accepted at every gaming table.

Deel
2007-04-14, 07:59 PM
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (if you're doing this whole bastard sword thing, which is foolhardy. You're burning a feat for a total of 2 extra points of possible max damage?)

But so awesome! Just imagine a guy weiling 2 bastard swords. Not katanas, full on bastard swords. You're like the epitome of the impossible yet ridiculously cool fighting style kind of guy. I use it on my warblade, and he owns face(though admittedly, he could own more, it is taking all his feats to gain (TWF, ITWF, GTWF, TW Pounce, TW Rend, Power Attack, and Leap Attack, but in the end it'll be worth it just to be a guy dual weilding bastard swords.)

But I digress, this is a math thread, I'll take my style-love out of here.

JaronK
2007-04-14, 09:00 PM
When I'm comparing two things for relative balance, I try to keep them pure core. In fact, I took the time to specify that I was using pure Core for the comparison. In general, you'll get more "broken" things outside of core than inside core. Where do you find Shock Trooper and Leap Attack? I'm fairly certain they aren't in the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, or Monster Manual. As such, they don't play into my example comparison, as you can't expect them to be accepted at every gaming table.

They're in the completes, which is pretty standard. And the idea that core is less broken than outside of core is absolutely silly. Three of the top 5 most powerful base classes are right there in the PHB (Wizard, Cleric, Druid... the other two would be Archivist and Artificer). Meanwhile, core only fighters are one of the weakest base classes out there. Adding other stuff brought fighters, monks, and other weak classes up a lot more than it did the power classes, which is why things are more balanced outside of core.

Besides, I don't think I've ever played a game where completes weren't allowed.

JaronK

Annarrkkii
2007-04-14, 09:15 PM
Me encanta los completes.

But it's not entirely true that they helped the melee classes more than they helped the spellcasters. There is a lot of cheesery out there. Just look at Dicefreaks and the WotC optimization forums—very few of their broken builds are Core-only. They did help the meleeists a good deal, however.

In Core-only, you really don't want to fight with two bastard swords. It's not worth it, really. Use a two-bladed sword. Less penalties for the same number of feats. And you just lose an average of about 8 damage per turn. Grab a locked gauntlet and you have no real disadvantages as compared to a bastard sword.

JaronK
2007-04-14, 09:21 PM
At any rate, one of the main problems of TWF is it takes up so many feats. In any comparison, the other guy needs to have the same number of feats. There are very few good feats in Core only, and since Core only games are pretty rare anyway, the good THF feats should be on the comparison fighter. Completes is standard, so Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, and Improved Bull Rush would be on the two hand fighter... most likely also Improved Trip with a Spiked Chain or similar.

JaronK

Rigeld2
2007-04-14, 09:25 PM
Who needs a spiked chain with Imp Trip?

JaronK
2007-04-14, 09:26 PM
No one... obviously a Guisarme does the trick just as well. However, if we've got all those feats to burn that the TWF guy used on ITWF, GTWF, and OTWF, we may as well slap in Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

JaronK

Zincorium
2007-04-14, 10:30 PM
When I'm comparing two things for relative balance, I try to keep them pure core. In fact, I took the time to specify that I was using pure Core for the comparison. In general, you'll get more "broken" things outside of core than inside core. Where do you find Shock Trooper and Leap Attack? I'm fairly certain they aren't in the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, or Monster Manual. As such, they don't play into my example comparison, as you can't expect them to be accepted at every gaming table.

Right. Except oversized TWF isn't core either. Meaning the wonderful bastard sword wielding person in the original example is getting -4 with each hand in a core only game. And can't take two weapon pounce or any of that. Core only is more beneficial to THF than TWF.

Also, charges, attacks of opportunity, and other situations where you only get one attack is where THF really shines.

Matthew
2007-04-14, 10:47 PM
Jack didn't use Oversized Two Weapon Fighting in his example. He used Short Swords, I'm not clear on whether he allowed Power Attack to be used with them, though, as I haven't had time to fully read through his post.

Zincorium
2007-04-14, 11:04 PM
Jack didn't use Oversized Two Weapon Fighting in his example. He used Short Swords, I'm not clear on whether he allowed Power Attack to be used with them, though, as I haven't had time to fully read through his post.

I didn't say he did. But the OP did use OTWF and didn't give shock trooper and leap attack to the THF'er. And since PA doesn't work with light weapons, it's either going to be no extra damage on at least one hand or going with two one handed weapons for -4.

Matthew
2007-04-14, 11:07 PM
Sure, but it's Jack who's talking about Core only.

Jack_Simth
2007-04-14, 11:10 PM
They're in the completes, which is pretty standard. And the idea that core is less broken than outside of core is absolutely silly.
What books does Pun-Pun require, again? (Yeah, yeah - I know - Godwin's Law, adapted for D&D) Is he inside Core, or out? He's outside Core, and I'm fairly sure the level-1 Pun-Pun build is the most broken thing ever. Thus, Core is less broken than outside core. Or at least, there is definitively something outside Core that is more broken than anything inside Core.

With Core, you've got a relatively small set of things to work with. Cutting down on your variables makes comparison simpler. Suppliments do exactly what the term implies - they add stuff. The base is still the same. The two-handed Fighter got more or more powerful additivies than did the two-weapon fighter in the currently published suppliments. It happens. Sword-and-board has the same problem, but the trade off is less easily comperable. If WotC decides to make a new feat that makes two-weapon fighting the bomb (Oh, say, something that permits a full attack on a charge exclusively when working with two weapons; or something that lets a rogue flank with himself when working with two weapons - whatever; I'm sure there's lots of things that would do the trick) does that suddenly make Two-handed fighting underpowered? Not really. It's the new feat that's overpowered in comparison to the base set. That's what happened with Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, and so on. They are overpowered for the two-handed fighter in comparison to the Sword and Board or the two-weapon fighter.

Meanwhile, if you pare your comparison down to core, you have... the starting situation (wherein, as I think I've reasonably shown, two-weapon fighting and two-handed fighting can be fairly well balanced with each other, other than the inherent drawbacks of splitting your damage to multiple attacks). You're not at the mercies of what style boost WotC decides will be the hottest seller this year.

Three of the top 5 most powerful base classes are right there in the PHB (Wizard, Cleric, Druid... the other two would be Archivist and Artificer). Meanwhile, core only fighters are one of the weakest base classes out there.
Immaterial for the subject under debate; I'm comparing a Fighter-20 with a two-handed weapon to a Fighter-20 with two weapons. I'm comparing styles, not classes. Sure, the fighter could use some lovin' - and gets some in the assorted suppliments. The problem, of course, being that Fighters were loved unevenly - certain styles were boosted significantly more than other certain styles.... when they started in a fairly balanced circumstance compared to each other (the Core case), even though it takes a little thinking to balance them.

Adding other stuff brought fighters, monks, and other weak classes up a lot more than it did the power classes, which is why things are more balanced outside of core.Not really; Celerity comes to mind. Veritable Win Button for casters. As it's only a 4th level spell, Greater Anyspell makes it available to Clerics as well. Immediate action "I go now"? Tasty. Mixes well with Foresight and a rod-maximized Time Stop. Especially when combined with Forcecage, Dimension Lock, and some long-running continuing damage effect.

The more you spread out, the worse things get - why, with enough suppliments, it's possible to initiate the pun-pun loop at level 1. Clerics, Wizards, Druids, Artificers, and Archivists, in comparison, are trash. They must be underpowered. Granted, it's absurd logic - well, more just taking something you're using to an absurd extreme - but it's the same thing, just in a larger degree to make a point. It's not the Cleric, Wizard, Druid, Artificer, and Archivist that's underpowered; it's pun-pun that's overpowered in comparison. In the same way, it's not two-weapon fighting that's underpowered; it's Leap Attack and Shock trooper that are overpowered in comparison to two-weapon fighting. The gulf isn't as big as between the level 1 pun-pun build and every other level-1 build out there, but it's fundamentally the same type of gulf.

Am I making sense?


Besides, I don't think I've ever played a game where completes weren't allowed.

JaronKThat is as it may be, but your situation is your situation, not mine, nor is it the theoretical situation I explicitly declared I was using for the comparison.



At any rate, one of the main problems of TWF is it takes up so many feats. In any comparison, the other guy needs to have the same number of feats. I did. Granted, they were sub-optimal feats, especially in comparison to things in various suppliments, but I was limiting them both to the same ruleset.


Jack didn't use Oversized Two Weapon Fighting in his example. He used Short Swords, I'm not clear on whether he allowed Power Attack to be used with them, though, as I haven't had time to fully read through his post.I did initially, then when the mistake was pointed out to me, I made a second core-only comparison that did not include the same issue.

Amphimir Míriel
2007-04-14, 11:56 PM
The problem is when you don't take all the heavy multipliers into account, from things like Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, and Headlong Rush. Also, the other problem occurs here:

Necessary feats to build a, effective Two-Weapon Fighter: TWF, Improved TWF, Dual Strike, Two-Weapon Rend, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (if you're doing this whole bastard sword thing, which is foolhardy. You're burning a feat for a total of 2 extra points of possible max damage?), Greater TWF (not REALLY worth it, but meh).

Feats necessary for effective THF: Power Attack. The rest of his feats can be spent however he wants. Perhaps on Headlong Rush, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper. Or on any other tree he wants.


Its the feat expenditure more than anything that makes TWF suck.

So, can we agree that the only reason for 2WF to be inferior to THF is the number of feats needed to make it effective?

In this case, Talya's proposed feat fix is all that we need, isn't it?

Note: It still results in a more feat-intensive build... but hey, in Real Life and Genre Literature(c) people who used two weapons at a time were rare and "special", so that's ok

Miyamoto Musashi, here I come!

-

Now we only need some Sword-and-Board feats that make that build into the favorite of the masses (as it should be, according to Real Life and Genre Literature(c) sources)... But that's a whole different topic

And no, don't mention those "two spiked shields" builds, as they are as silly as sword-chucks and spiked chains...

Matthew
2007-04-15, 12:00 AM
No, there are more problems than number of Feats. Mainly the Full Attack thing, but it is one amongst others.

Amphimir Míriel
2007-04-15, 10:54 PM
No, there are more problems than number of Feats. Mainly the Full Attack thing, but it is one amongst others.

Dual Strike helps with that, doesn't it?

Matthew
2007-04-15, 11:05 PM
Not really. You need to have Improved Two Weapon Fighting (or rather Base Attack Bonus 6) to purchase it and it works like Many Shot with regard to precision damage and has one Attack Roll. A Fighter has to burn both his Feats at Level 6 and any other Full BAB Character has to wait until Level 9 (except maybe Ranger). Other Characters perhaps Level 12 or higher.

TOAOMT
2007-04-16, 02:28 AM
Dunno if this has been posted yet, but my 2 CP is that TWF can be better IF there's some per attack based damage. A TWFing Swashbuckler or rogue for example can get that int to damage or sneack attack that much more often. For fighter, THF is a much more efficient (not saying better, just more efficient) path to high damage.

Also, to the person who mentioned Musashi, he did not regularly fight with two swords. This is a common misconception because he innovated the two weapon fighting style. His preferred fighting style (especially in single combat) was the single katana wielded two handed (as was traditional), though he did eventually migrate to a wooden sword which he believed to be a superior weapon because it was heavier and blunt, allowing him more control over the life or death of his opponent. Sorry to nitpick, Miyamoto Musashi has been my idol and the focus of a lot of my spare time for about ten years now.

Rad
2007-04-16, 02:37 AM
Just an idle question, since you all seem to have paid the TWF a lot of attention.
Is there any way at all to make a viable TWF ranger? The more time passes, the more it seems that the only suitable way is a fighter/rogue

JaronK
2007-04-16, 03:00 AM
Well... not really. If you can figure out how to do a full attack charge (via magic items or whatever) a Scout 4/Ranger 16 with the feat that lets you stack Scout and Ranger for Skirmish Damage would help a lot, and work relatively well. Basically, two weapon fighting is only a good idea if you're adding a bunch of bonus damage to each hit, which means you need sneak attack, sudden strike, skirmish, or something similar. Since Rangers can't get very much of that, they're not too good at two weapon fighting.

Fighters, of course, are terrible at it... given the same sources, stats, levels, and gold, any THF character will be better than any TWF character if both only have access to fighter levels. That's assuming of course that the deck isn't massively stacked in favor of the TWF Fighter, for example by picking suboptimal feats and not paying attention to the cost of the TWF Fighter's weapons.

JaronK

SpatulaOfDoom
2007-04-16, 03:41 AM
A TWF ranger is a viable, but not great, build for a couple of reasons.
Favored enemy bonus damage is something that can be doubled up with two weapon fighting.
Depending on which books you have access to Rangers have a number of spells that can be advantageous to a TWF'er.
Because they get the virtual two weapon fighting progression they don't require sky high dex and can concentrate more on strength.

The whole Two weapon fighting versus Two handed fighting is a horse so dead it's fossilized. Two handed fighting is mechanically better than two weapon fighting. Feel free to cite all the multi-class stacking abilities stuff you like but remember that you're making all that effort to come up to the level that Two handed fighers get for pretty much free.

Rad
2007-04-16, 06:41 AM
thank you guys. I found out about the ranger/scout thing just this morning, so I figure that should make it. (it's not like the rest of the party is well optimized after all)

EDIT: however the skirmish ability requires you to move, while TWF requires a full attack. How do you overcome that? Boots of speed?

SpatulaOfDoom
2007-04-16, 12:49 PM
Boots of speed don't allow you to make a full attack after moving, they just grant you Haste.
The traditional way of using skirmish on full attack is to take a couple of levels of Dervish.
People also take enough levels of Psychic Warrior to pick up psionic lions charge.
Elocators (psi prestige) eventually allows a second 5 foot adjustment in a round but is a bit of an expensive way of doing that.
There's a 3.0 item Sparring Dummy of the Master that allows Monks a second 5 foot adjustment.
From the PHB2 there's a feat that allows you to 2weapon charge and the feat intensive spring attack enhancements that allow for multiple attacks on a spring attack.

That's all I can think of for now.

Variable Arcana
2007-04-16, 01:04 PM
Just one minor point to add...

TWF looks less bad at 19th level than at 20th -- the THFer loses 1/4 of his potential damage, while the TWFer loses only 1/7 of his.

squishycube
2007-04-16, 01:42 PM
A while back Chris the Pontifex made an excel sheet to calculate optimal weapon damage. It takes lots of things in account, but probably not everything. You can download it here (http://www.quibuscms.net/img/forum/average dmg.xls) (1,302,528 bytes)

Jack_Simth
2007-04-16, 05:01 PM
Just an idle question, since you all seem to have paid the TWF a lot of attention.
Is there any way at all to make a viable TWF ranger? The more time passes, the more it seems that the only suitable way is a fighter/rogue
The Ranger is a decent choice for two reasons:
1) Extra damage from non-strength sources (and thus not cut in half on the secondary weapon) is where Two Weapon Fighting shines - and Rangers get extra damage from favored enemy bonuses.
2) Two-weapon fighting's biggest cost is that it is feat intensive - and a Ranger picking the two-weapon style gets the feats for "free".

If you cheese it slightly, your Ranger carries a greatsword and armor spikes to fight with two weapons (RAW legal - armor spikes can be counted as a light off-hand weapon, and you're still wielding the Greatsword in two hands) for most the benefits of the two-handed style (the ability to use Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, Double Power Attack, and so on) and the two-weapon style (extra attacks for extra damage).

Regardless, the way to make it viable is to focus on extra damage - your two weapons may be three points of enhancement behind, but you're doubling up on everything attached to them - so that's Flaming twice, Shocking Twice, Frost twice, and so forth.

A pure-classed Rogue actually makes about the ideal two-weapon fighter - Core, at least - due to all the sneak attack dice. Works best with touch or ranged touch attacks, by way of Use Magic Device and a high caster level Wand of Chill Touch (a high caster level is mostly so you don't have to stop and refresh it several times a combat - the way the equations work out, it's 15 gp per hit - and while the save DC is only going to be 11, the fact that you're putting out quite a few of them a round means you actually have something useful to do vs. undead) or Quickdraw and Flasks of Acid (10 gp per throw), or Quickdraw and flasks of Alchemist's Fire (20 gp per throw) (or all three - they aren't mutually exclusive, and having the choice of Fire, Acid, or Negative Energy damage is hady, especially with a pair of shortswords and some hand crossbows as backups).