Wizard/Fighter Eldritch Knight

[Shadowscale]

I wanted to try to get 9th level spells with a mostly full BAB I was thinking of going with Eldritch Guardian Fighter and Transumuter (enchantment subschool) wizard with the eldritch heritage feats for the orc bloodline. How would one go about optimizing this concept without say being a magus.
Go nuts and thanks in advance.

[Psyren]

Eldritch Guardian can also be combined with Lore Warden or Mutation Warrior - I recommend you do one of these.

There's really not much to do here from an optimization standpoint - it's Fighter 1/Wiz 5/EK 10/X, go to town. 18/20 casting will get you 9ths; if you can find at least a 3/4 BAB caster PrC for the end levels - even one that loses another caster level - you will reach 16 BAB without losing 9ths. (For example, Arcane Archer 4 or Hell Knight Signifier 4.)

[Shadowscale]

Eldritch Guardian can also be combined with Lore Warden or Mutation Warrior - I recommend you do one of these.

There's really not much to do here from an optimization standpoint - it's Fighter 1/Wiz 5/EK 10/X, go to town. 18/20 casting will get you 9ths; if you can find at least a 3/4 BAB caster PrC for the end levels - even one that loses another caster level - you will reach 16 BAB without losing 9ths. (For example, Arcane Archer 4 or Hell Knight Signifier 4.)
If I lose another caster level then I'd be 17/20 right, i that even good for casting? Any good feat ideas?

[Squark]

I think Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 9 is pretty typical. 17/20 BAB and 18/20 Casting You get a few fewer HP with Sorcerer, but you can still hit the same BAB and Casting, if you really dislike prepared casters.

[Psyren]

If I lose another caster level then I'd be 17/20 right, i that even good for casting? Any good feat ideas?

17/20 still gets you 9ths, so yes.

For feats, your concept is very broad. Are you planning to be primarily melee, ranged or an equal mix? What weapon(s) do you want to focus on? Do you want to use any combat maneuvers, and if so, which ones? Do you want to focus on manufactured or natural weapons? Aside from transmuation, what spells do you want to use? Aside from combat, what role do you want to play in the party

The answers to those and similar questions will determine which feats you select. I recommend going through various handbooks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?233029-PF-Optimization-Guides-Compendium) that may apply to your concept.

[Shadowscale]

17/20 still gets you 9ths, so yes.

For feats, your concept is very broad. Are you planning to be primarily melee, ranged or an equal mix? What weapon(s) do you want to focus on? Do you want to use any combat maneuvers, and if so, which ones? Do you want to focus on manufactured or natural weapons? Aside from transmuation, what spells do you want to use? Aside from combat, what role do you want to play in the party

The answers to those and similar questions will determine which feats you select. I recommend going through various handbooks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?233029-PF-Optimization-Guides-Compendium) that may apply to your concept.

I planned on going primary melee with a spell in one hand and a word in the other. Not really combat maneuver more on just doing a lot of damage per hit with manufactured weapons. I want to really use mostly transumutation, and enchantments, maybe also transformation. I also wanted to wear mitheral full plate so lore warden is out. So mutation warrior it is then. Uhh, I wanted to be the parties secondary arcane caster and frontline fighter. Any other help or idea you have i appreciated.

[Shadowscale]

I think Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 9 is pretty typical. 17/20 BAB and 18/20 Casting You get a few fewer HP with Sorcerer, but you can still hit the same BAB and Casting, if you really dislike prepared casters.

Unfortunately AC isn't in pathfinder, what did you mean by you sorcerer though, asI'm curious?

[the_archduke]

I also wanted to wear mitheral full plate so lore warden is out. So mutation warrior it is then.

Mithral fullplate has 25% arcane spell failure. It is really not recommended to wear that kind of armor if you plan on casting spells in combat.

[Shadowscale]

Mithral fullplate has 25% arcane spell failure. It is really not recommended to wear that kind of armor if you plan on casting spells in combat.

I will be taking still spell and having my familiar use it until I can get both arcane armor training and mastery. I don't see the issue?

[Psyren]

I will be taking still spell and having my familiar use it until I can get both arcane armor training and mastery. I don't see the issue?

That still leaves you with 5% failure on your non-still spells, and you give up your swift action every round. Not saying it's bad, just letting you know what you're in for.

[the_archduke]

Even arcane armor mastery won't completely remove the ASF chance, it would only drop it to 5%. And it would require you to use your swift action any round you cast a spell. So you can't use it on spells that already use a swift action, and no quickened spell for you.

Still spell raises the spell level of any spell you cast by one. It doesn't cripple you, but it weakens you greatly.

-edit: ninjaed

[Shadowscale]

That still leaves you with 5% failure on your non-still spells, and you give up your swift action every round. Not saying it's bad, just letting you know what you're in for.

If anything I'm okay with dealing with a 5% chance.

[meemaas]

If anything I'm okay with dealing with a 5% chance.

If you're open to third party content (DSP alert) the fusing armor property from DSPs ultimate psionics/psionics unleashed can cut out the rest of that arcane spell failure.

[grarrrg]

Relevant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?314617-Reducing-Arcane-Spell-Failure-in-Pathfinder&p=16427024#post16427024)

Also Relevent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?230500-Pathfinder-Dipping-for-Fun-and-Profit-%28mostly-Profit%29&p=12613046&viewfull=1#post12613046) 5th spoiler down, partially reposted for convenience (I only did a quick pass for better than 1/2 Bab, it's likely you can't qualify for some of them)
No Lost Casting
Hellknight Signifier, 3/4 Bab, 10/10 Casting
Spherewalker, 3/4 Bab, 5/5 Casting

1 Lost Casting (no Casting on 1st level of PrC)
Arcane Archer, Full Bab, 7/10 Casting (if taken to level 4 or less)
Demoniac, 3/4 Bab, 9/10 Casting
Evangelist, 3/4 Bab, 9/10 Casting
Living Monolith, 3/4 Bab, 9/10 Casting (newer version only)
Mystery Cultist, 3/4 Bab, 9/10 Casting
Razmiran Priest, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if taken to level 4 or less)
Riftwarden, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if taken to level 4 or less)
Storm Kindler, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if taken to level 4 or less)
Umbral Court Agent, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if taken to level 4 or less)

Since you plan on Arcane Armor Training/Mastery anyway, then I recommend 3 levels of Hellknight Signifier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/hellknight-signifer), assuming your alignment matches up, the 3rd level reduces Armor Arcane Failure by 5%

[Kurald Galain]

I wanted to try to get 9th level spells with a mostly full BAB I was thinking of going with Eldritch Guardian Fighter and Transumuter (enchantment subschool) wizard with the eldritch heritage feats for the orc bloodline. How would one go about optimizing this concept without say being a magus.

Actually since the Magus does get proficiency with all martial weapons, Magus 1 / Wizard 5 / Eldritch Knight is not a bad option. You lose one point of BAB, but you gain more spells at low level plus the spell combat ability (which is very gishy).

[Peat]

The only alternate to Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10/X 4 is Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Evangelist 8/Eldritch Knight 7. That gets you a BAB of 16 and a CL of 17. The former method gets you a CL of 18 if you end with Hellknight Signifier or Spherewalker - and Hellknight is a really obvious choice for an armoured mage - plus you don't have to be religious and you don't get gimped in a heartbeat if you can't do your Deific Obedience.

The Evangelist route does have some nice tricks though.

Also, Gendarme Cavalier 1 is probably better than Fighter 1 if you wanted Power Attack.

[Andezzar]

Outsider type should allow you to get around the need for taking a fighter level. As long as you get four attacks (BAB 16) increasing BAB should not be your main concern. Getting 9th level spells earlier and higher caster level are much more important.

[Kurald Galain]

Outsider type should allow you to get around the need for taking a fighter level.
Not in PF, though.

[meemaas]

Actually since the Magus does get proficiency with all martial weapons, Magus 1 / Wizard 5 / Eldritch Knight is not a bad option. You lose one point of BAB, but you gain more spells at low level plus the spell combat ability (which is very gishy).

Problem is that Spell Combat only works with Magus spells and you need three levels in Magus to get an arcana to let it work with your wizard spells.

[Andezzar]

Not in PF, though.Too bad. Another reason not to play PF.

[JohnDaBarr]

With this kind of a character I wouldn't bother with armor except in early lvl's. Later on stuff like Mage Armor (Greater Mage Armor), Shield (Greater Shield) and Mirror Image (Greater Mirror Image) make armor redundant, especially with Abjurant Champion who gives you 13 to AC from Greater Shield as a swift action.

[Andezzar]

There is no Abjurant Champion in PF, unfortunately.

[grarrrg]

Problem is that Spell Combat only works with Magus spells and you need SIX levels in Magus to get an arcana to let it work with your wizard spells.

Fixed that for you.
Yeah...Broad Study (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/magus-arcana/paizo---magus-arcana/broad-study-ex) is near worthless outside of Gestalt.


Too bad. Another reason not to play PF.

Oh noes! They logically, and with good reasons, took away one of my favorite exploits! I hate them all forever!

[Kurald Galain]

Oh noes! They logically, and with good reasons, took away one of my favorite exploits! I hate them all forever!

You just won the thread :smallbiggrin:

[Shadowscale]

This might be a mythic campaign if I can get the mythic Mage armor mastery feat what should my last 4 levels be, and what mythic path? Arch Mage?

[grarrrg]

This might be a mythic campaign if I can get the mythic Mage armor mastery feat what should my last 4 levels be, and what mythic path? Arch Mage?

Mythic Arch Mage yes. While some of the more martial paths have nice abilities, you're very much better off boosting your casting to ridiculous levels instead.


As for last 4 levels...I still like Hellknight Signifier.
Full Casting and 3/4 Bab to get you to 9ths and 16 Bab at level 20, and you'll already meet most/all of the pre-requisites.
And the 2nd level grants you the Arcane Armor Mastery feat, saving you a slot.

Next best option would probably be Evangelist, 3/4 Bab, you lose another Caster level, but get 6-Skills/level, and a couple abilities.

[Shadowscale]

The only alternate to Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10/X 4 is Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Evangelist 8/Eldritch Knight 7. That gets you a BAB of 16 and a CL of 17. The former method gets you a CL of 18 if you end with Hellknight Signifier or Spherewalker - and Hellknight is a really obvious choice for an armoured mage - plus you don't have to be religious and you don't get gimped in a heartbeat if you can't do your Deific Obedience.

The Evangelist route does have some nice tricks though.

Also, Gendarme Cavalier 1 is probably better than Fighter 1 if you wanted Power Attack.

About Cavalier since it doesn't stack with my effective fighter level it's only better if there isn't s fighter lol 11 bonus feat, my question, does one exist?

[grarrrg]

About Cavalier since it doesn't stack with my effective fighter level it's only better if there isn't s fighter lol 11 bonus feat, my question, does one exist?

To answer the general recommendation for Cavalier:
Fighter 1 gets you: 2 Skill points, and a Bonus Combat Feat (give or take Archetype)
Gendarme Cavalier 1 gets you: 4 Skill points, a Bonus Feat (short list (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/gendarme)), Challenge, and Mount (give or take Archetype, Order doesn't much matter, because at 1st level all it really does is tweak your Challenge bonus).

So from a "quick look" Cavalier 1 has a HUGE advantage over Fighter 1

As for the specific question of "Fighter 11" feats:
Critical Versatility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/critical-versatility-combat-human) (Human Only), not a horrible feat, but probably not high on your list of "oh shiny".
Pin Down (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pin-down-combat) can actually be quite useful for Battle-Field control through AoO's.

[Shadowscale]

To answer the general recommendation for Cavalier:
Fighter 1 gets you: 2 Skill points, and a Bonus Combat Feat (give or take Archetype)
Gendarme Cavalier 1 gets you: 4 Skill points, a Bonus Feat (short list (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/gendarme)), Challenge, and Mount (give or take Archetype, Order doesn't much matter, because at 1st level all it really does is tweak your Challenge bonus).

So from a "quick look" Cavalier 1 has a HUGE advantage over Fighter 1

As for the specific question of "Fighter 11" feats:
Critical Versatility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/critical-versatility-combat-human) (Human Only), not a horrible feat, but probably not high on your list of "oh shiny".
Pin Down (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pin-down-combat) can actually be quite useful for Battle-Field control through AoO's.

Call me a sucker, but pin down is down my ally. Thanks for all the help, my last question since this game is in the morning It will be lvl 9 mythic tier 3, do you think I'll be effective fighter 1 (elditch guardian for familiar)/wizard transmuter (enchant subschool) 5/ and Elditch knight 3?

Also I'm thinking of going Marshal or Arch Mage, any good mythic feats with my entire build concept?

[grarrrg]

do you think I'll be effective fighter 1 (elditch guardian for familiar)/wizard transmuter (enchant subschool) 5/ and Elditch knight 3?

Also I'm thinking of going Marshal or Arch Mage, any good mythic feats with my entire build concept?

I've not delved much into Mythic to be honest.
Arch Mage is probably better, mainly due to "Caster > Martial".

[Peat]

As for last 4 levels...I still like Hellknight Signifier.
Full Casting and 3/4 Bab to get you to 9ths and 16 Bab at level 20, and you'll already meet most/all of the pre-requisites.
And the 2nd level grants you the Arcane Armor Mastery feat, saving you a slot.

Next best option would probably be Evangelist, 3/4 Bab, you lose another Caster level, but get 6-Skills/level, and a couple abilities.

I agree with this. Hellknight Signifier is straight up the strongest option for an armoured Gish, particularly Int based, to an extent where I wouldn't even mention anything else. To be honest, I'd probably go into Hellknight before Eldritch Knight for this build, assuming everything else aligned. You sacrifice the casting level later and get that much needed boost to lowering ASF quicker.

[Shadowscale]

I agree with this. Hellknight Signifier is straight up the strongest option for an armoured Gish, particularly Int based, to an extent where I wouldn't even mention anything else. To be honest, I'd probably go into Hellknight before Eldritch Knight for this build, assuming everything else aligned. You sacrifice the casting level later and get that much needed boost to lowering ASF quicker.

4 levels of hellknight then eldritch knight could work quite well come to think of it.