Undead and Living Construct

[Grim Portent]

If a creature has both the Undead type and the Living Construct subtype what features of it's types does it have? Does it heal from positive energy spells as a Living Construct or does it take damage from them as an Undead? Does it have a con score? What about the other points of conflict between the two, which takes precedence?

[The Viscount]

RAW I'm not sure it can come up due to the application of templates. If you know of one that could apply to living constructs I'd be interested to know.

[Inevitability]

RAW I'm not sure it can come up due to the application of templates. If you know of one that could apply to living constructs I'd be interested to know.

Crypt Spawn can be applied to 'any living creature', just to name one.

[Grim Portent]

RAW I'm not sure it can come up due to the application of templates. If you know of one that could apply to living constructs I'd be interested to know.

Well Incarnate Construct can make a Humanoid (Living Construct) if I'm remembering it correctly, and there's spells that can change type temporarily allowing for the application of templates in the period of time the spell is active.

[Zilzmaer]

If a creature has both the Undead type and the Living Construct subtype what features of it's types does it have? Does it heal from positive energy spells as a Living Construct or does it take damage from them as an Undead? Does it have a con score? What about the other points of conflict between the two, which takes precedence?

Assuming it was a Warforged (or whatever) first, then became Undead, it would not have a Con, as the application of the Undead-inducing template removes it. I would tend to say that the positive energy issue would be similar; gaining Undead traits means positive energy no longer heals it. It shouldn't matter what it was before; the only reason positive energy is called out in Living Construct traits is because it normally has no effect on Constructs. RAW, however, I'm not sure.

Actually, looking at the SRD entry for the Undead type, it doesn't mention that positive energy damages Undead, only that negative energy heals them. The Cure line of spells specifically states that they damage Undead, so you'll be hurt by those either way.

[Maglubiyet]

I think this is one of those cases where the new template (Undead) would replace the old one.

Not sure how you could have an Undead Living anything. Maybe we need a new template -- Unliving.

[Grim Portent]

Assuming it was a Warforged (or whatever) first, then became Undead, it would not have a Con, as the application of the Undead-inducing template removes it. I would tend to say that the positive energy issue would be similar; gaining Undead traits means positive energy no longer heals it. It shouldn't matter what it was before; the only reason positive energy is called out in Living Construct traits is because it normally has no effect on Constructs. RAW, however, I'm not sure.

Actually, looking at the SRD entry for the Undead type, it doesn't mention that positive energy damages Undead, only that negative energy heals them. The Cure line of spells specifically states that they damage Undead, so you'll be hurt by those either way.

I think by RAW the cure spells would heal it for half as per Living Construct and damage it for full as per Undead, balancing out to half damage from positive energy but still getting full healing from negative.

[DrMotives]

If it's a living construct that then becomes undead, it won't be healed at all by positive energy. Positive energy as is damages undead, that's not a unique feature of the cure line of spells. It should respond to positive & negative as any other undead creature.

[Sith_Happens]

If it's a living construct that then becomes undead, it won't be healed at all by positive energy. Positive energy as is damages undead, that's not a unique feature of the cure line of spells. It should respond to positive & negative as any other undead creature.

Note quite. Here's the relevant trait description (from MMIII, I'm pretty sure it's copy-pasted from ECS though):


Living constructs can be affected by spells that target living creatures as well as by those that target constructs. Damage dealt to a living construct can be healed by a cure light wounds spell or a repair light damage spell, for example, and a living construct is vulnerable to a harm spell. However, spells from the healing subschool provide only half effect to a living construct.

"Provide half effect," not "heal for half as much." An undead living construct would take half damage from healing spells (with the normal Will save for half again).

[Grim Portent]

Note quite. Here's the relevant trait description (from MMIII, I'm pretty sure it's copy-pasted from ECS though):



"Provide half effect," not "heal for half as much." An undead living construct would take half damage from healing spells (with the normal Will save for half again).

Wouldn't the
Living constructs can be affected by spells that target living creatures as well as by those that target constructs.

bit mean they still count as living for the purposes of spells as well though?

[Afgncaap5]

I think the folks of Eberron believe it can't happen often. When we talked about "raising constructs" a few weeks back, wasn't there a mention found in one of the books that talked about "Woeforged", constructs that are "sort of" dead in the same way tat Warforged are "sort of" alive?

I think this is one of those areas where a GM just has to decide how they want the story to work.

[Zilzmaer]

Positive energy as is damages undead, that's not a unique feature of the cure line of spells.

That is not a trait of the Undead type. According to the type traits, positive energy has no different effect on Undead than on any other creature type. Ditto for Constructs. Cure spells damaging Undead and not healing Constructs is specifically called out in the spell description.

[DrMotives]

That is not a trait of the Undead type. According to the type traits, positive energy has no different effect on Undead than on any other creature type. Ditto for Constructs. Cure spells damaging Undead and not healing Constructs is specifically called out in the spell description.

Maybe so, but I don't think there's any mention of positive energy that doesn't include its known effect of damaging undead. Otherwise the PHB cantrip "disrupt undead" which is nothing but beam of positive energy would do nothing. D&D physics is that as negative energy hurts the living, positive energy hurts the undead. That's been a constant in every edition.

[Sith_Happens]

Wouldn't the

bit mean they still count as living for the purposes of spells as well though?

The subtype description says that living constructs are affected at all by spells that affect living creatures, it doesn't say that they're affected the same way that a normal living creature would be. For most spells the former implies the latter, but Cure spells are not most spells in that respect.

[ashdragon3]

im a few years late to the party on this post, but i just came up on the issue myself. one an undead template is applied to a living construct, then it is lo longer a living construct and would lose the living construct subtype. if it was a sentient living construct then it would be a sentient undead. spells that specifically affect a construct or a living construct would still apply, but for mechanics, would be treated as an undead in all ways, which includes being harmed by positive energy.
positive energy hurts undead because it is the opposite of their animating force, interfering with their connection to the negative energy plane (or shadowdark). a undead living construct has lost the positive lifeforce that made it a 'living' construct, replaced with negative energy and all that that entails.
the difficulty you'd encounter when applying undead templates is that many of the incorporeal or bone/skeletal templates wouldn't really apply, requiring extensive modification as the construct would still have the resilience and traits one its artificial body.
in cases like a warforged, where they do have a soul, then incorporeal templates like ghost are still possible, but are a minefield of a headache to deal with.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: The party is dead, the doors are locked, the lights are out.