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Seerow
2015-04-10, 04:27 PM
Background
(Skip this if you don’t care about any of the reasoning and just want to get to the crunch)
In preparation for an upcoming campaign, I’ve been revisiting some old issues I’ve grappled with and decided to tackle the problem in a different way. I’ve never liked the magic item christmas tree, and the way it forces every character to carry around a dozen minor magic items to hit their intended power levels. In the upcoming campaign at least for the first half of it there’s not a lot of room to be getting frequent custom magic items to outfit the PCs in a full suite of perfect gear for them, and since I dislike that dynamic in general, I started looking for a solution. I’ve fiddled with solutions to this issue in the past, with my biggest effort going towards an ultimately unfinished magic item system based loosely off incarnum, but that worked alongside a system I have posted in the past (check my sig) where all of the minor number boosting stuff comes free as you level up. I would probably just run with this if not for the other problems involved.

The other problem is the level up/experience system itself. I’m planning on running Kingmaker. Anyone familiar with it knows there’s lots of minor sidequests, places to explore, and the primary reward for most of this exploring is extra bits of exp here and there. This leads to very erratic leveling, and I have an honest fear that if the players go full completionist, they’ll end up way ahead of the intended level for the more story-critical sections of the module, especially when you throw in the big xp rewards recommended for successful kingdom building. This problem will only be magnified as I inevitably modify encounters that I feel are too weak or boring, and the PCs earn even more experience.

The standard solution to this is just tell the PCs they level up when they hit an appropriate milestone. But I have run campaigns in that way before and never found it satisfying. There is something gratifying about getting experience after a successful encounter, about getting that incremental progress. The need for this kind of small constant reward is only magnified in a sandbox campaign, as often times the only reward for exploring a hex or overcoming an encounter is the experience gained. Removing experience entirely cheapens the time spent on these things, so I wanted to maintain a way to reward the players.

The Solution
PCs will level up via fiat rather than via experience. So at certain checkpoints after a great accomplishment is made, the characters will gain a level. However, experience is still earned by all characters as normal. The characters may now use this experience during downtime (during a rest for the night or between sessions) to purchase perks that mimic the effects of common magical items. For the most part these effects are only ones that can pass off as mundane, generally the small passive bonuses that you accumulate over your career by picking up a ring of this, a cloak of that, and letting it ride. There are high level abilities that go beyond the ordinary, but still nothing explicitly supernatural (ie tremorsense or blindsight are in, but flight and telportation is out).

Magic Items still exist, but they are rarer. +X Weapons and Armor cease to exist altogether (explained further below). Things like Cloak of Protection, Ring of Deflection, etc, may still show up, but are not expected or guaranteed. Settlements will follow the Ultimate Campaign guidelines for magic items available (thus making it so a typical settlement will have a small number of set, randomly generated, items available for purchase). Crafting will be handled on an individual basis, but should generally be considered as unavailable. The idea is that this system can take care of all of your standard magic item needs, and any items players do acquire should be interesting and character defining.

A character may spend up to 500*character level on a single perk. This limitation encourages the player to focus on level appropriate abilities rather than saving up for something they should not yet have access to (which they could get far earlier than normal due to the relatively linear nature of experience growth compared to wealth). That limit also means that the player is able to pick up two level appropriate perks per character level’s worth of experience. Most of the perk values were determined by figuring out the level it is appropriate to gain that perk at, and setting its xp cost based on that.

The benefit is that you always know what level the party is going to be, and even if they get a ton of experience under their belt at a given level it will rarely be enough to push them more than 1 CR up, never anything to the same degree as gaining a new spell level does if your PCs get a level or 2 ahead of where you expect. But even while having that control, the PCs get the constant minor experience rewards, and now even get to spend them on more customizations, making the reward feel tangible, all while simultaneously being able to remove all-encompasing magic marts. It is Win-Win.

Perk Lists
Note when looking at exp costs below: You may not spend more than your current level * 750 experience on a single purchase. This means even if you save up 12,000xp at level 4, you have to spend it in chunks of 3,000 or less, you cannot just buy yourself +4 to a stat, even though that costs 12,000xp. The only exception to this rule is for buying feats, which cost 5,000 experience but may be purchased at any level. When upgrading from a smaller bonus to a larger one, you only pay the difference in cost. This difference from the next lower bonus is noted in the chart below, as well as the minimum level at which you can purchase that effect.



Benefit Exp Cost Cost Over Previous Minimum Level
+1 Enhancement to Weapons 1,500 1,500 2
+2 Enhancement to Weapons 6,000 4,500 6
+3 Enhancement to Weapons 12,750 6,750 9
+4 Enhancement to Weapons 21,750 9,000 12
+5 Enhancement to Weapons 33,000 11,250 15

+1 Enhancement to Armor 750 750 1
+2 Enhancement to Armor 3,750 3,000 4
+3 Enhancement to Armor 9,000 5,250 7
+4 Enhancement to Armor 16,500 7,500 10
+5 Enhancement to Armor 26,250 9,750 13

+1 Deflection to Armor 1,500 1,500 2
+2 Deflection to Armor 6,000 4,500 6
+3 Deflection to Armor 13,500 7,500 10
+4 Deflection to Armor 24,000 10,500 14
+5 Deflection to Armor 38,500 13,500 18

+1 to Natural Armor 1,500 1,500 2
+2 to Natural Armor 6,000 4,500 6
+3 to Natural Armor 13,500 7,500 10
+4 to Natural Armor 24,000 10,500 14
+5 to Natural Armor 38,500 13,500 18

+1 Resistance to Saves 750 500 1
+2 Resistance to Saves 3,750 3,000 4
+3 Resistance to Saves 9,000 5,250 7
+4 Resistance to Saves 16,500 7,500 10
+5 Resistance to Saves 26,250 9,750 13

+2 Enhancement to Stat 4,500* 4,500 6
+4 Enhancement to Stat 12,000* 7,500 10
+6 Enhancement to Stat 22,500* 10,500 14

+1 Inherent to Stat 12,000 12,000 16
+2 Inherent to Stat 24,750 12,750 17
+3 Inherent to Stat 38,250 13,500 18
+4 Inherent to Stat 52,500 14,250 19
+5 Inherent to Stat 67,500 15,000 20

Note: If you already have at least 1 enhancement bonus to a stat, reduce the cost of enhancing other stats up to the same level or lower by 33% (3,000 for +2, 8,000 for +4, 15,000 for +6)




Benefit Exp Cost Cost Over Previous Minimum Level
DR2/(B, P, S) 3,000 3,000 4
DR5/(B, P, S) 8,250 5,250 7
DR10/(B, P, S) 16,500 8,250 11
DR15/(B, P, S) 28,500 12,000 16

DR2/(Cold Iron or Silver) 3,750 3,750 5
DR5/(Cold Iron or Silver) 10,500 6,750 9
DR10/(Cold Iron or Silver) 21,000 10,500 14
DR15/(Cold Iron or Silver) 36,000 15,000 20

DR2/(Adamantine or Alignment) 4,500 4,500 6
DR5/( Adamantine or Alignment) 12,750 8,250 11
DR10/( Adamantine or Alignment) 26,250 13,500 18

DR2/- 5,250 5,250 7
DR5/- 15,000 9,750 13
DR10/- 30,000 15,000 20

Resist(Cold, Fire, Ele, or Acid) 5 3,000 3,000 4
Resist(Cold, Fire, Ele, or Acid) 10 8,250 5,250 7
Resist(Cold, Fire, Ele, or Acid) 15 15,750 7,500 10
Resist(Cold, Fire, Ele, or Acid) 25 24,500 9,750 13
Immune(Cold, Fire, Ele, or Acid) 36,500 12,000 16

Resist(Sonic or Force) 5 6,000 6,000 8
Resist(Sonic or Force) 10 14,250 8,250 11
Resist(Sonic or Force) 15 24,750 10,500 14
Resist(Sonic or Force) 25 37,500 12,750 17
Immune(Sonic or Force) 52,500 15,000 20

Gain SR5+EL 7,500 7,500 10
+2 to Existing SR 3,750 3,750 5
+4 to existing SR 10,500 6,750 9
+6 to existing SR 21,000 10,500 14
+8 to existing SR 36,000 15,000 20

Death Ward 7,500 7,500 15
True Seeing 8,500 8,500 17
Mind Blank 9,500 9,500 19


Note: Alignment based DR grants DR bypassed by an alignment opposite of one component of your own alignment. For example a LG character can gain DR/Evil or DR/Chaotic. If the character is true neutral, they may not pick Alignment based DR.




Benefit Exp Cost Cost Over Previous Minimum Level
+10ft Enhancement to Move 3,000 3,000 4
+20ft Enhancement to Move 9,000 6,000 8
+30ft Enhancement to Move 18,000 9,000 12
+40ft Enhancement to Move 30,000 12,000 16
+50ft Enhancement to Move 45,000 15,000 20

Gain Low-Light Vision 750 750 1
Gain Darkvision 60ft 3,000 3,000 4
Gain Scent 30ft 3,000 3,000 4
Gain Tremorsense 30ft 6,000 6,000 8
Gain Blindsense 30ft 9,000 9,000 12
Blindsense->Blindsight 12,000 12,000 16
+30ft to existing sense Base Cost +50% Base Cost +50% Varies

Gain a Bonus Feat 5,000* 5,000 1

+1 Healing Surge 3,750 3,750 5
+2 Healing Surges 12,000 8,250 11
+3 Healing Surges 25,500 13,500 18

Recover 1 HS/hour 6,000 6,000 8
Recover 2 HS/hour 15,000 9,000 12
Recover 4 HS/hour 27,000 12,000 16

+5 Competence to Skill 3,000 3,000 4
+10 Competence to Skill 9,000 6,000 8
+15 Competence to Skill 18,750 9,750 13
+20 Competence to Skill 33,000 14,250 19

+1 Skill/level 750 750 1
+2 Skills/level 3,000 2,250 4
+3 Skills/level 9,000 6,000 8
+4 Skills/level 18,000 9,000 12

Note: +Skills/level applies retroactively.

Note: Feats are not subject to the normal pricing limitations. You may buy a feat regardless of level, as long as you have the prerequisite experience. You must meet all prerequisites of a feat purchased in this way.


Notes on Experience Rewards
All rewards are inherent to the person who purchases them. These benefits may not be lost or stolen. A bonus to hit or AC applies regardless of equipment used. So if you by a +3 Enhancement Bonus to weapon, it applies whether you use natural attacks, a longsword, an improvised weapon, or anything else you pick up to hit people with.
Rewards with bonus types follow normal stacking rules. Any spells or magic items found using the same bonus type will not stack.
A character possessing these effects does not detect as inherently magical, any more than a typical high level character without magical gear.
Enhancement Bonus to Attacks gained in this way works like the Pathfinder Enhancement bonuses, allowing weapons to bypass DR even if the weapon used would not normally qualify. +3 allows the character to bypass DR/Cold Iron or Silver. +4 allows the character to bypass DR/Adamantine. +5 Allows the character to bypass DR/Alignment.

Notes on Experience Interactions with level loss.
If a character dies and is resurrected in a way that would normally cause a negative level, they instead take an experience point penalty equal to their level times 1,000. If they do not have the experience to cover this, their experience level is negative until they have paid off the cost.
The character may choose to sacrifice already purchased bonuses. Doing so counts as though earning 25% more experience than the bonus was originally worth for the purpose of buying off experience debt.
Negative levels are handled normally when first applied, but once they become permanent, the inflicted individual loses experience as described for raise dead above.
New Characters starting play at a level higher than 1 have the minimum experience required to attain that level. They may spend that experience as desired, using their starting level as character level for any variable cost effects (such as bonus feats).

Notes on Equipment Rewards
While some equipment may be dropped/found with properties matching effects that may be gained through experience, no weapons or armor will have a +X Bonus.
Any randomly generated weapon or armor with just a +1 bonus is treated instead as Superior armor.
Any randomly generated weapon or armor with just a +2 bonus is treated instead as Masterwork armor.
Any bonuses above +2 will be converted to actual properties manually.
Weapons and Armor can have properties without a +X bonus. For example you can have a Flaming Longsword without it being +1 first.

Notes on Healing
Because Magic Items will be limited in availability, this potentially poses a very real problem for the adventuring day, as without an adequate supply of consumables, the game can grind to a halt even with a dedicated healer in the party. Without a dedicated healer, the game may even cease to function without these items.

To help alleviate this, I suggest using a variant on 4th edition healing surges, using a similar concept for self healing but making it more limited so you do not get the level 1 characters who bounce back from anything after sleeping for a night. This is the healing method I will be using alongside the system, and I am posting it here because lack of healing is one of the major concerns of cutting back on easily available magic items, but if your group is comfortable without wands/potions without changes, this is not a necessary addition.

All characters have a maximum of 3+con mod in healing surges.
Healing surges may be used outside of combat to heal a character for 25% of their maximum hit points (minimum 1).
A healing surge may instead be spent to recover 2 points of ability damage to every damaged ability score.
In combat, a character who receives healing from a Cure Wounds spell may spend a Healing Surge to double the effectiveness of that spell.
Healing surges recover at a rate of 1 per day, this replaces the hit point restoration of normal rest based healing, and is modified by things like full bedrest normally.
In addition to this, to help supplement the new Healing Surges, the Cure _____ Wounds line of spells are being slightly buffed. All Cure Wounds spells are treated as though having the maximum caster level at all times (so a Cure Light Wounds spell heals for 1d8+5, regardless of caster level).





Benefit Exp Cost Cost Over Previous Minimum Level
+1 Enhancement to Weapons 1,000 1,000 2
+2 Enhancement to Weapons 4,000 3,000 6
+3 Enhancement to Weapons 9,000 5,000 10
+4 Enhancement to Weapons 16,000 7,000 14
+5 Enhancement to Weapons 25,000 9,000 18

+1 Enhancement to Armor 500 500 1
+2 Enhancement to Armor 2,500 2,000 4
+3 Enhancement to Armor 6,000 3,500 7
+4 Enhancement to Armor 11,000 5,000 10
+5 Enhancement to Armor 17,500 6,500 13

+1 Deflection to Armor 1,000 1,000 2
+2 Deflection to Armor 4,000 3,000 6
+3 Deflection to Armor 9,000 5,000 10
+4 Deflection to Armor 16,000 7,000 14
+5 Deflection to Armor 25,000 9,000 18

+1 to Natural Armor 1,000 1,000 2
+2 to Natural Armor 4,000 3,000 6
+3 to Natural Armor 9,000 5,000 10
+4 to Natural Armor 16,000 7,000 14
+5 to Natural Armor 25,000 9,000 18

+1 Resistance to Saves 500 500 1
+2 Resistance to Saves 2,500 2,000 4
+3 Resistance to Saves 6,000 3,500 7
+4 Resistance to Saves 11,000 5,000 10
+5 Resistance to Saves 17,500 6,500 13

+2 Enhancement to Stat 3,000 3,000 6
+4 Enhancement to Stat 8,000 5,000 10
+6 Enhancement to Stat 15,000 7,000 14

+1 Inherent to Stat 8,000 8,000 16
+2 Inherent to Stat 16,500 8,500 17
+3 Inherent to Stat 25,500 9,000 18
+4 Inherent to Stat 35,000 9,500 19
+5 Inherent to Stat 45,000 10,000 20



Benefit Exp Cost Cost Over Previous Minimum Level
DR2/(B, P, or S) 2,000 2,000 4
DR5/(B, P, or S) 5,500 3,500 7
DR10/(B, P, or S) 11,000 5,500 11
DR15/(B, P, or S) 19,000 8,000 16

DR2/(Material or Alignment) 2,500 2,500 5
DR5/(Material or Alignment) 6,500 4,000 8
DR10/(Material or Alignment) 12,500 6,000 12
DR15/(Material or Alignment) 21,000 8,500 17

DR2/- 3,000 3,000 6
DR5/- 7,500 4,500 9
DR10/- 14,000 6,500 13
DR15/- 23,000 9,000 18

Resist(Cold, Fire, Ele, or Acid) 5 2,000 2,000 4
Resist(Cold, Fire, Ele, or Acid) 10 5,500 3,500 7
Resist(Cold, Fire, Ele, or Acid) 15 10,500 5,000 10
Resist(Cold, Fire, Ele, or Acid) 25 17,000 6,500 13
Immune(Cold, Fire, Ele, or Acid) 25,000 8,000 16

Resist(Sonic or Force) 5 4,000 4,000 8
Resist(Sonic or Force) 10 9,500 5,500 11
Resist(Sonic or Force) 15 16,500 7,000 14
Resist(Sonic or Force) 25 25,000 8,500 17
Immune(Sonic or Force) 35,000 10,000 20

Gain SR5+EL 5,000 5,000 10
+3 to Existing SR 2,500 2,500 5
+6 to existing SR 8,000 5,500 11
+9 to existing SR 17,000 9,000 18

Death Ward 7,500 7,500 15
True Seeing 8,500 8,500 17
Mind Blank 9,500 9,500 19





Benefit Exp Cost Cost Over Previous Minimum Level
+5 Competence to Skill 1,500 1,500 3
+10 Competence to Skill 4,500 3,000 6
+15 Competence to Skill 9,000 4,500 9
+20 Competence to Skill 15,000 6,000 12
+30 Competence to Skill 23,000 8,000 16

+1 Skill/level 500 500 1
+2 Skills/level 2,000 1,500 4
+3 Skills/level 6,000 4,000 8
+4 Skills/level 12,000 6,000 12

Note: +Skills/level applies retroactively.




Benefit Exp Cost Cost Over Previous Minimum Level
+10ft Enhancement to Move 2,000 2,000 4
+20ft Enhancement to Move 6,000 4,000 8
+30ft Enhancement to Move 12,000 6,000 12
+40ft Enhancement to Move 20,000 8,000 16
+50ft Enhancement to Move 30,000 10,000 20

Gain Low-Light Vision 500 500 1
Gain Darkvision 60ft 2,000 2,000 4
Gain Scent 30ft 2,000 2,000 4
Gain Tremorsense 30ft 4,000 4,000 8
Gain Blindsense 30ft 6,000 6,000 12
Blindsense->Blindsight 8,000 8,000 16
+30ft to existing sense Base Cost +50% Base Cost +50% Varies

Gain a Bonus Feat Character Level*500 Character Level*500 1

+1 Healing Surge 2,500 2,500 5
+2 Healing Surges 8,000 5,500 11
+3 Healing Surges 17,000 9,000 18

Recover 1 HS/hour 4,000 4,000 8
Recover 2 HS/hour 10,000 6,000 12
Recover 4 HS/hour 18,000 8,000 16

Note: For more information on healing surges, see “Notes on Healing” below.

Fizban
2015-04-16, 10:50 AM
My first hunch is that assuming the characters gain enough xp, this will probably give them a lot more gear, since cumulative xp is pretty high. It seems like you're focused more on the highest bonus available when it's always been more efficient to diversify, and with no item slot limitations there's why wouldn't you? But maybe it works out.

So, you've basically changed the pricing method of standard bonus items from BS*1-2k (bonus^2*1-2000), in gp vs WBL to variable formula vs total xp. Weapons, deflection, and natural armor are at BS*1k xp, and armor is half that, so for levels where WBL and total xp are close those items are effectively half the original price. Save and ability bonus items are obviously not using the original formula (it looks like your pricing is cumulative based on the levels you assigned maximum bonus to), but were originally cheap at BS*1k and did not receive the full price cut of AC/AB items, so they're effectively worse. This is because they're delayed arbitrarily compared to armor/resistance bonuses, though the cumulative cost ends up lower since they don't have as many ranks to climb through. A +1 inherent bonus at 16th for 8k out of 120k xp is actually cheaper than 27.5 out of 260, but at +3 it reverses (though inherent bonuses scale linearly so this would have happened anyway).

Skill ranks are seriously cheap, and feats are insanely cheap. Any optimizer will look at this and buy nothing but feats for the first three, maybe even four levels. So many feats have either no prerequisites or only require other feats. The only way this makes any sense is if the campaign starts at like, 10th level minimum. Items don't grant feats for less that 5,000, usually 20k+ for feats that are hard enough to get you'd want to buy them. Requiring new characters above 1st level to pay for feats at the level they're being created doesn't really solve the problem, it just means killing one character screws the next one for the same player, and I personally hate that kind of player based asymmetrical character keeping. The skill ranks aren't as bad but I don't see anyone not taking at least the first tier eventually because it's so cheap from being allowed at level 1 (I had a friend who'd saw off his characters arm if it could get him some more skill points). It's like a 500gp item that scales with your level forever.

At levels 1-8 total xp is greater than WBL, they match at 9th, then WBL is greater from 10th onward. You've made most stuff cheaper and given access to +2 weapons/+10 skills far earlier than they should be based on WBL, so they're quite overpowered, and allowing skill bonuses higher than +10 means it will be literally impossible for anyone who doesn't also have the opposing skill double maxed to match it. Useful for PCs vs overleveled dragons I suppose, but I'm guessing Kingmaker involves lots of NPCs. Anyway, the overall result is more cash and cheaper items at low levels=overpowered.

Since you can't go higher than +5 weapons/armor and those aren't available until 18th level, high level characters are forced to load up on other abilities. Weapon minded characters have no way of increasing their damage past +5 enhance, but DR 5/- or more has been available for the last 9 levels so they're probably pretty sad. Normally +5 equivalent weapons should be arriving by 13th or 14th, weather you're using WBL, Kensai, or even Soulknife. This problem may be alleviated by your mention of "weapons/armor [from the module] with +2 or higher bonus will be converted manually," but without an accompanying table of how much magic items are expected for proping up the system I have to take it as-is. Casters won't have metamagic rods from the shop, but metamagic feats are all available at 1st level for cheap, as well as always-on senses that used to require specific spells or items with sharply limited durations. Oddly enough there's no Freedom of Movement here to match the Death Ward and Mind Blank, nor is there poison or disease immunity.

Incidentally, your pricing method reminds me of the MiC's item levels, where items were assigned levels such that a character would gain two X level items on their way to reaching level X in order to stay on WBL. The difference is that item levels are meant to be used for easy placement of treasure, not determining the strength of their best items. In the DMG under creating characters above 1st level, it mentions 1/4 WBL as a possible limit, but most people use 1/2. I could swear I read character building advice in a WotC book that said you should spend half your cash on your weapon, but even without that the Ancestral Relic feat and OA Samurai's Ancestral Daisho ability make it pretty clear that 1/2 max is expected for your main weapon or item.

In the end, aside from some specific problems the general system is probably fine. DR is valued too lightly, there's 5 points of weapon and armor enhancement stretched over what should go to +10 equivalent, and skill bonuses go higher than they should (I can't think of any non-epic items that go past +10 right now). Many effects are available earlier (+2 weapons, +10 skills, most special abilities), while the flat bonuses are almost all delayed significantly past when they could normally be maxed out with WBL. Ability enhancements are arbitrarily delayed but end up much cheaper since you get to skip cumulative costs on the odd numbers. In turn, delayed numbers and earlier special defenses and senses (and ability scores being cheaper than armor/resistance) hurts those that need numbers and makes life easier on those who normally produce specials while only needing ability bonuses (or fighters get screwed and casters get win'd).

Finally moving on to healing, I like the base healing surges for 1/4 or maximizing a healing spell, but I don't agree with literally doubling the whole cure line of spells for free. I must assume your parties take a boatload of damage if doubling and maximizing cure spells is needed to get them through combat. My view may be a bit skewed from building dedicated healers and watching an endless procession of PCs with Healing Belts, but it really shouldn't take that much. If they blunder into fights so poorly they nearly die before sorting out how to fight and the cleric just chain-heals all day then I'd suggest letting them learn the hard way that strategy and tactics are required knowledge for kings. For out of combat healing you could replace wands with alchemical solutions, but if you're leaving behind WBL then good luck deciding how much they cost (or how much money the PCs get for that matter).

Seerow
2015-04-16, 05:37 PM
Thanks for the detailed feedback, Fizban!

Tackling the stuff in order:

Issue 1) This allows much more magic at low level and shorts players at high level.

Unfortunately, standard wealth by level (and most pricing standards) don't follow a particularly logical pattern that you can follow, so it's hard to line anything up such that it follows consistently. So my thought was to instead focus on what levels various effects are level appropriate. While you point out that a +5 equivalent weapon or armor will come available at level 13-14, I have almost never seen a PC actually go for a raw +5 weapon. This may be something that varies game to game, though. Basically I put +1 at the point where I figured those bonuses could reasonably come available, and went every 4 levels from there, following GMW/Magic Vestment progression.

I dunno, I'll stat up a few sample character for 5, 10, 15, and 20 and see how far ahead/behind they come compared to a standard magically geared character.


Issue 2) Skill Ranks/Feats are too cheap.

I considered making feats a flat 5,000 to mirror E-6, but I liked the idea of characters being able to pick up extra feats before level 10, since feats are generally something you want more at earlier levels. I could maybe make it a variable cost (capping at 5000) and even feats you already bought increase in cost when you level up, so buying a bunch of feats early on slows down your progression in other areas for a few levels. But that could end up getting complicated and annoying to track.

Skill ranks on the other hand I am comfortable with being cheap. Yes they are much harder to come across in the standard game, but the game is in general too stingy with skills for my taste, and players are always starving for more ranks. If every player decides they want to buy max ranks, it won't actually increase their power in a meaningful way, so I'm not bothered.


Issue 3) Skill Bonuses are too cheap (Also Skill Bonuses only go up to +10)

Skill Bonuses actually go up to +30 as magic items in D&D 3.5. I think Pathfinder capped it down to +10, but 3.5 goes up to +30 following a progression of bonus squared times 100. So +5 is 2,500. +10 is 10,000. +15 is 22,500. +20 is 40,000. +25 is 62,500. +30 is 90,000.

So +30 to a skill costing slightly less than a +5 weapon is actually perfectly in line. Now it's possible both of those costs need to go up some, I'm still considering your point there, but as far as the actual pricing of +skill modifiers relative to other options is right on the spot as far as I can see.

Issue 4) DR is valued too lightly

Is this coming from the value of DR as presented in existing items, or DR as its value in combat? Because yeah, existing items put DR5/bludgeoning or DR3/Adamantine as relatively expensive effects, but past the lowest levels (where you can't afford it), you tend to need more than that for it to be even noticeable.

That said I'll probably push up the value of DR/(material or alignment) by 1 level (so it costs the same as DR/- now) and bump DR/- up 2 levels, to make unbypassable DR take a bit longer to come online.

Issue 5) Ability Scores are arbitrarily delayed

I actually went with the point where an ability boosting item is worth 1/3rd of your WBL. I think that's pretty reasonable for a non-weapon/armor. Some characters (notably SAD casters) may push to get one a few levels earlier, but I don't think this is anything that will break the game.

That said I think you have a valid point about skipping the odd numbers arbitrarily lowering the effective price compared to normal. I could add the odd numbers in, which will make the higher values more expensive, and allow someone who wants to invest in a +1 earlier. I worry that may end up making enhancement ability boosts too expensive though.

Issue 6) Healing Stuff

Okay, so my reasoning on doubling the Cure line of spells was simply to make them actually worth using in combat. Especially with healing surges to handle healing out of combat, I wanted to make the cure spells worthwhile. I don't expect that the Cure Spells will be necessary to get through a day, but casting one mid-combat should be a valuable contribution and not a waste of resources. Similarly, maximizing a healing spell with a healing surge should be worthwhile.

Maybe instead of doubling the flat healing, remove the flat healing and increase the d8s gained further? Something like 2d8/5d8/9d8/14d8. So then you are healing for 9(16), 22(40), 40(72), 63(112). That keeps spending a healing surge on a cure spell as a valuable use of resources until around 200 hp, so the mechanic maintains a point up through high levels. Which is good, because the healing surges should be your more valuable resource (they regenerate much slower than spell slots) throughout the game.

But yeah I'm wanting to move away from consumable based healing entirely. I simply don't find it satisfying, because my experience is the PCs when they're in town buy a few wands (or a bundle of them at higher levels), and from that point on there is no meaningful drain on PC health short of combat dropping their hp dramatically.

And the upside of this system is if you drop healing potions or the like, those are actually a serious contribution to healing available, rather than **** you can't wait to sell so you can buy some wands with the funds. (Seriously 1 Cure Serious Wounds potion costs 750gp and heals ~20hp. A Wand of Lesser Vigor costs the exact same and heals 550hp)


If I missed any points, let me know. I'll be running some numbers and making adjustments soon.

Fizban
2015-04-17, 12:30 AM
Sorry if this is a little bloated, I just kept going back and adding stuff.


Unfortunately, standard wealth by level (and most pricing standards) don't follow a particularly logical pattern that you can follow, so it's hard to line anything up such that it follows consistently. So my thought was to instead focus on what levels various effects are level appropriate. . .and went every 4 levels from there, following GMW/Magic Vestment progression.
Oh it definitely it makes no sense. The best I've come up with so far is that they devised their basic pricing mechanics of bonus^2*base and maybe also the spell level*cl*base, picked what they thought were appropriate levels for each tier, populated the magic item tables, and then calculated average accumulated treasure for each level and truncated them to nice round numbers. It looks kinda like the xp progression because it's an average of items that use formulas which aren't too far off the same curve for levels 1-10. Or maybe they came up with their assumed standard progression of items and then converted that into cash. Either case we have no way of knowing.

Note however that in 3.0, GMW scaled at +1/3 levels, and you can see this reflected in the crafting requirements that no longer match after the 3.5 nerf. I don't see players going for high bonus weapons either, but I think that's because either A: if they wanted a weapon they'd have made a character build (Kensai, etc) for it, B: they're more worried about defense, or C: they just didn't save their money to upgrade. With core DMG items only instead of cheap MiC trinkets, building new characters every 5 levels rather than fighting the whole way up (supposedly 3.0 was playtested at 1/5/10/15), and coming from an age when the wizard and cleric were expected to spend many of their spells buffing the party (compared to now where it's every man for himself), I remain comfortable in my assessment. In that environment you can rely on your allies to keep you alive and should go for the biggest weapon you can get in order to maximize your output while buffed.

even feats you already bought increase in cost when you level up, so buying a bunch of feats early on slows down your progression in other areas for a few levels.Huh? Not sure if this is referring to the new or old idea. Regardless, any tiny amount of delay on your first +1's for bonus feats that last your whole career is and obvious choice, unless you're so bad at tactics (making and receiving excessive attacks) that you actually need that +1 earlier to survive.

Skill Bonuses actually go up to +30 as magic items in D&D 3.5. . . +30 to a skill costing slightly less than a +5 weapon is actually perfectly in line.
But have you actually seen any printed with bonuses that high outside of epic? The only examples I can think of are the armor properties that go up to +15 in the DMG, and those have an extra +50% cost for being armor. I usually see players skimping on skill bonus items since their skills are good enough that they would rather beef up their defenses first, but the bonus delays in this system make that less likely so why not go from mostly undetectable to completely undetectable? Items really shouldn't give that much of a bonus on a d20 roll anyway, I doubt they ever considered the implications.

A +5 weapon is only 50,000gp, so it should be about half the price of the +30 bonus, not the other way around. Skipping bonus levels drastically reduces the cumulative cost just like ability scores, and skill bonuses were already cheap to begin with. A +20 at 12th would usually be almost 1/2 your WBL if you could even get it, but here it's less than 1/4, and the +30 is even worse: 19.2% of xp at 16th vs 34.6% of WBL. Or for level appropriateness, compare an extra +10 on a skill vs +1 on a stat, since they're both the same price here.

Is this coming from the value of DR as presented in existing items, or DR as its value in combat?
Both. Remember, it doesn't have to fully negate an attack to be worthwhile. People use 20% miss chance all the time, and +1 AC is only +5% miss chance. Many monsters and NPCs rely on multiple low-damage hits, and even -2 on each of those hits adds up fast, resulting in anything from 10% negation on a 20 damage hit to 50% on multiple 4's. I played an Incarnate/Totemist/Cleric once using the Astral Bracers from a web article, DR 4/magic practically felt like invincibility against anything not a greataxe (admittedly the game didn't last long). If your players are mostly fighting two handed power attack, fireballs, and monsters with only a single big bite then DR might not be very good but against anything else I'd be real careful, especially when you're buffing healing at the same time.

Regardless, you need to define what "material or alignment" means: do you choose exactly what you get? What about how enhancement bonus negates materials first but alignment last? Unless you're fighting demons and angels alignment DR will be unbeatable without someone to align weapons against you, but then I guess DR/- is only 1 level later so /alignment is already second most expensive. I find the blunt/pierce/slash DRs insulting myself since it basically just penalizes people that want to use a certain type of weapon (potentially making archers terrible), while claws beat anything but blunt and bites are all three at once. In a normal game DR/magic is actually pretty useful against most monsters but I assume it's not an option here because everyone has inherent enhancement bonuses that make it useless. I'd push the good DR back even farther myself, at least 3 levels.

ability scores
There's no real way to fix it since you're tying the price to the level availability. Crafting requirements for ability score boosters are 3/+1, the price is the same as armor, but in order to prevent odd number abuse they're done in +2's, every aspect is at odds with the new pricing which starts at 6th but then increases by 4s and doesn't fully accumulate. Since you don't want to allow buying things at more than 500/level, it's impossible to up the cost to account for the accumulation without effectively delaying the level availability. The best solution if you want to match WBL pricing is to just do it the same as armor, but you'd have to build some characters to find out if it's the best solution overall. I don't actually mind having the prices be a bit off, but having it inverted so that +2's feel expensive and +6's feel cheap is weird.

Okay, so my reasoning on doubling the Cure line of spells was simply to make them actually worth using in combat.
The point of a cure spell is not to even contribute to the fight, it's to save a life by granting just enough hit points that the next attack might not kill them and the party will have one more round to end it. DnD combat is as they say, nasty brutish and short, and making cure spells stronger brings it closer to JRPG combat which in tabletop is rather tedious. I built a heal-bot to fill in the 4th PC when I ran Red Hand of Doom and while it did give the party a lot more flexibility to play around, it also made it nigh impossible to threaten them with anything less than a dragon using Maximize Breath or a massive endurance fight*. If all cure spells are increased, every cleric starts off nearly as good as a healer build, which is basically just Augment Healing and Divine Ward anyway (both of which can be bought for the low low price of 500xp each at 1st level, nice time to build a cleric).

For surge maximizing, just compare the amount of hit points gained to the amount the surge was originally worth. Maximizing a cure spell is worth +4.5 hp per spell level compared to the average result. What level of spell investment is assumed here? Cure Serious at 5th or 6th is worth 13.5 hp, compared to a normal healing surge of 1/4 your max hp. If you have less than 54hp you're actually getting more, while if you have more than 54hp you're losing efficiency but that's fine because not dying this turn is more important. If you want to make maximizing better then you could replace the +cl with +1d8/4 levels, but making healing spells more random is generally bad since getting a low result means you're a dead man.

*Also, make sure your players understand the way their resources now flow. Every player death I had in that game aside from the dragon punting incident was caused by not realizing they were out of spells to heal or fight. The new healing surge mechanic will probably make them aware, but if they're used to wands and forget how many surges they had left between sessions it could go bad.

But yeah I'm wanting to move away from consumable based healing entirely. Cure Serious Wounds potion costs 750gp and heals ~20hp. A Wand of Lesser Vigor costs the exact same and heals 550hp
As annoyed as I am by the Healing Belt, they can kinda bite the players in the ass, which is nice. Wands run out so obviously belts are better, but if everyone has a belt then people would feel silly with two belts because that's already plenty right?, higher levels everyone still has the same ~27hp per day but it's not enough anymore. As for potions, just drop the price. Wands are sl*cl*15gp per charge, price cure potions based on that. The wand is easier to carry and doesn't provoke so it can still exist, but at less than 1/3 the listed price cure potions are viable again. Cure Serious is 225gp then, still expensive enough most people won't buy more than a couple but low enough that they will want a couple. I use the same pricing guideline for alchemical items, and spell grenades would be similar (any instantaneous effect really)

So, since this isn't meant for use in a vaccum, would you mind providing some more information about the module and your group's playstyle? Like I said above, I would expect something called Kingmaker to involve plenty of PC vs NPC fights, which just don't work when DnD is designed for players vs monsters. This would explain the desire for bigger healing, since NPCs can nova just as hard as the PCs, whose abilities are designed for killing things way tougher than themselves. Leading a fight with a maximized fireball makes for a solid monster fight but just melts humanoids. DR is affected most strongly by how many attacks people use, so favoring greatswords, orges, rhinos, tyrannosaurs or purple worms will play out a lot differently from sword and board, TWF, archers, trolls, or dragons and abominations with 6+ limbs.

I'd recommend keeping the original tables in a changelog for future readers. If you build some perk loadouts post them up, and I don't think it would take long to page through the module and get a read on what magic items the players will likely get. Doesn't need to be comprehensive, but if required boss #2 has a flaming frosting sword then you might not worry about the lack of alternate damage bonuses. I look forward to your responses :smallbiggrin:

Seerow
2015-04-17, 02:15 PM
Sorry if this is a little bloated, I just kept going back and adding stuff.


No problem!


So, since this isn't meant for use in a vaccum, would you mind providing some more information about the module and your group's playstyle? Like I said above, I would expect something called Kingmaker to involve plenty of PC vs NPC fights, which just don't work when DnD is designed for players vs monsters. This would explain the desire for bigger healing, since NPCs can nova just as hard as the PCs, whose abilities are designed for killing things way tougher than themselves. Leading a fight with a maximized fireball makes for a solid monster fight but just melts humanoids. DR is affected most strongly by how many attacks people use, so favoring greatswords, orges, rhinos, tyrannosaurs or purple worms will play out a lot differently from sword and board, TWF, archers, trolls, or dragons and abominations with 6+ limbs.


Okay a little more information on the AP and my group going into the spoiler so somebody doesn't accidentally get spoiled for it coming through here.

The AP itself is one of Pathfinder's APs that I'm backporting to 3.5 (mostly because that's what my group knows and plays). Basic premise is there's a nation that's composed of two separate nations that got conquered some time ago, on the cusp of civil war. The weaker side as a desperation move sends out 4 groups to try to settle the "Stolen Lands", which is a pretty wide area that a number of different nations in the area all claim at one point belonged to them, but nobody's really been able to maintain a hold on it, as the land itself is wild and seems to resist settlement.

So the PCs start out with a charter to explore a central part of this area and clear out any major problems. After they succeed, they get some modest support to found their feifdom, but that support is pretty limited and dries up quickly as tensions within the starting nation start rising, leaving the PCs on their own to deal with the problems from the wild areas around the nation, the other groups who got sent out at the same time as them (which they end up absorbing into their nation), and some of the other nations bordering the stolen lands area. Most of the problems occurring are at least somewhat orchestrated by a Fey Queen who lays claim to the area, and is a large part of why previous attempts to settle in the area have failed despite its relatively rich resources.

So yes there is a fair bit of dealing with humanoids, but there's also a lot of dealing with the dangers of the wilds, and probably a good half dozen dungeon crawls mixed in there.

My biggest reason for wanting to work in these changes with this AP is that since the AP is so open ended (a huge chunk of the experience gains come from things the PCs may or may not persue like side quests, exploring the wilds, dealing with threats in hexes they may never bother going to, or even hitting certain kingdom milestones), I wanted to have a stronger control over PC levels. Similarly, since until their nation is well developed, they're going to be spending a ton of time on the frontier, in an area where being able to custom order magic items is unlikely. So even during sections where they are looting a lot of gear, a good deal of it is not ideal, and there are very big holes.

For example, I don't think I saw a single +stat item until midway through the 4th part (when the PCs are supposed to be around level 10), and I don't recall seeing any cloaks of resistance and the like at all. Meanwhile they will collect a mountain of +1 and +2 weapons and armor, probably enough to arm a small army with them... which is potentially a cool thing, except the PCs need to sell off every one of those items and then find some way to buy or craft the items they actually need.

So my goal is to just remove that factor entirely. Instead of relying on the drops for basic functionality, or rewriting what the NPCs are doing with their wealth to get items more useful to the PCs, I can leave the items mostly alone, and any items that are scattered around that are actually interesting, the PCs will pick up and use, while the rest either don't exist, or are rolled into funding/supporting their Kingdom rather than being sold for personal use.

As for what the party and our games are usually like, encounter-wise I do tend towards designing harder encounters. Specifically I try to avoid running encounters with less than 2 creatures, and tend to run a minimum 2-3 encounters in a given day (and occasionally a lot more). It's not so much that I regularly overwhelm the party with nova damage so much as I keep constant pressure on them over the course of an adventuring day. That kind of experience is my background for healing used by the party between combats. You mention healing belts in your post, and I've seen them used a couple of times (both as DM and player), but wands are used far more often simply because past level 3-4 healing belts don't provide enough daily healing to get you through. The healing belts instead used as you described cure spells being used, as an emergency burst of healing to get a PC through the next round and out of the fight alive.

On magic items (the impetus of the topic) we have often had a strong tendency towards once you find a large town, you can buy/sell basically anything you're going to need. This results in a lot of custom made magic items with multiple properties stacked up, and nobody ever actually using something they found, because even if it's a good item, chances are they have something specific in mind they want to use instead, and they can sell the new item to get something else.

Basically I'm just tired of the magic mart thing. I'm reasonably okay with it if PCs come out stronger overall due to having a mix of dropped magic items and their personal perks, but I the idea is that the perks presented alone can more or less make up for not having any magic items. In the past I've tried to avoid this by giving inherent bonuses at level up (giving increased stats, enhance to hit/dmg, reworking AC to scale more naturally, resist bonus to saves, etc). That worked okay but wasn't really satisfying because there was no choice or decision making involved, you just level up and get the bonus. Combine that with my concerns about not being rewarded with experience for side objectives in the AP, and the system in this thread was born.


And now I'm going to move around cherrypicking things to respond to as I notice them. Sorry if I miss anything.


Note however that in 3.0, GMW scaled at +1/3 levels, and you can see this reflected in the crafting requirements that no longer match after the 3.5 nerf. I don't see players going for high bonus weapons either, but I think that's because either A: if they wanted a weapon they'd have made a character build (Kensai, etc) for it, B: they're more worried about defense, or C: they just didn't save their money to upgrade

This is a fair point. But I didn't mean that PCs never get a high cost weapon, just that the value is very rarely spent on a +X bonus. I see a lot of weapons that are stuff like +1 Morphing Metaline, or +1 Icy Burst Collision, or +1 Splitting Distance. But very rarely do I see a flat +5 weapon.


But have you actually seen any printed with bonuses that high outside of epic?

I haven't seen any printed that I can name offhand, but going by the rules up to a +30 is a pre-epic item. I don't allow pulling strange bonus types out to stack it up to +150 or whatever, but +30 skill items are a thing available by the rules, so should be obtainable here.

That said...


A +5 weapon is only 50,000gp, so it should be about half the price of the +30 bonus, not the other way around

You're right. For some reason in my head I multiplied the cost by 2 again and was thinking it was 100k. No idea why I did that.

Okay, so skills bonuses (especially at the high end) are undercosted. Check.


Remember, it doesn't have to fully negate an attack to be worthwhile. People use 20% miss chance all the time, and +1 AC is only +5% miss chance.

For the most part miss chances are really popular because they let the character dump AC entirely, which is much more expensive to boost. Remember if the thing attacking you has an attack bonus off your RNG +4 AC means nothing, while 20% miss chance is still 20% miss chance. That's the big draw there. Also that miss chance stacks with AC, so even if you have a good AC, using a miss chance with it is still a good idea and probably a cheaper option than more AC boosting.


I played an Incarnate/Totemist/Cleric once using the Astral Bracers from a web article, DR 4/magic practically felt like invincibility against anything not a greataxe (admittedly the game didn't last long). If your players are mostly fighting two handed power attack, fireballs, and monsters with only a single big bite then DR might not be very good but against anything else I'd be real careful, especially when you're buffing healing at the same time.

It's worth remembering that anything that possesses DR/magic can bypass DR/magic with its natural weapons. There's a ton of things out there that have DR/magic that for the most part players just ignore because by the time you fight them you have a +1 weapon, but could punch through your DR easily.

That said, as long as average challenges can outdamage the DR, I think it's fine. If you take half damage against someone who can't bypass your DR AND has lots of little attacks... you're probably doing all right. Yes the DR system has issues with penalizing certain creature types more than others (and that is an issue I have worked at length on in the past, if you want you can check my sig or ask, I've got a topic from years ago for an alternate system I've played with), but I don't think that's necessarily a good reason to make it a monster only thing, or make it so PCs can only ever get insignificant amounts of it.


Regardless, you need to define what "material or alignment" means: do you choose exactly what you get?

Yeah I'll clear that up. I'll probably actually put Cold Iron or Silver (your choice) on one tier, with Alignment or Adamantine on a separate tier between that and DR/-. For Alignment the type of alignment will probably depend on your own, but I might just make it your choice since I am generally pretty lax about alignments. I'm also considering including DR/Magic as an alternative to DR/damage type.


I don't actually mind having the prices be a bit off, but having it inverted so that +2's feel expensive and +6's feel cheap is weird.

Well +2 is still 1/5th the cost of +6, it's just that is normally 1/9th. I could drop +2 to level 4 (2000xp), set +4 to level 9 (6,500xp total) and leave +6 where it is (13,500xp total), which lowers the cost of stat boosters overall, with the +2 costing 1/7th as much as +6.

Or to encourage MAD characters, I could do something like offer a discount on enhancement bonuses after the first. Say 25% off further enhancement boosts to stats after you already have one at a given level. So after you buy your first +2 stat, your next +2 stat costs 2250 instead. A full suite of +6 stats would cost 71,250xp which is still pretty expensive, but it might be tempting to buy a couple extra +2s and +4s for someone who can use more than just 1 attribute.


(both of which can be bought for the low low price of 500xp each at 1st level, nice time to build a cleric).

Do note that at 1st level 500xp is half a level, and worth about 6 encounters.

Speaking of did you have any thoughts on the idea of making the exp cost scale when you level, so that 500xp feat eventually costs you 5000xp?

Alternatively I guess I could give feats a set cost somewhere between 3000 and 5000, and make them a special exception that can be bought above the normal level limitations. Or I could make it so you can purchase one extra feat per level, with each feat increasing in cost by 500 over the last.


The point of a cure spell is not to even contribute to the fight, it's to save a life by granting just enough hit points that the next attack might not kill them and the party will have one more round to end it. DnD combat is as they say, nasty brutish and short, and making cure spells stronger brings it closer to JRPG combat which in tabletop is rather tedious.

I get what you're saying, especially since I know how fights dragged out in 4e.

What about a compromise? Leave cure spells exactly as they are, except make them independent of caster level. They always have the maximum caster level bonus. (So CLW is 1d8+5, CMW is 2d8+10, etc) Spending a healing surge, rather than maximizing the value, doubles it.

This makes consumables for cure spells more worthwhile without having to pay out the ass for a high caster level version. Cure spells don't feel all the same until you're such a high level you can't afford it. It also provides a more concrete benefit to blowing a healing surge (CCW turning 4d8+20 into 8d8+40 feels impressive, while still being half as effective as a standard heal spell).


I'd recommend keeping the original tables in a changelog for future readers. If you build some perk loadouts post them up, and I don't think it would take long to page through the module and get a read on what magic items the players will likely get. Doesn't need to be comprehensive, but if required boss #2 has a flaming frosting sword then you might not worry about the lack of alternate damage bonuses. I look forward to your responses


Yeah I'll go ahead and save the old tables when I update.

Right now I haven't completed any equipment loadouts yet, but I am already considering changing from 500 to 750 as the base experience cost. It makes the progression a little less neat than 2 upgrades every level, but may end up playing out for the best. I dunno we'll see in a little bit.

Seerow
2015-04-17, 04:44 PM
So just looking at how XP/GP lines up, saying XP and GP are 1:1 until level 10 doesn't get you too far off the mark. But by level 15 you have twice as much gp as XP, and by level 20 you have 4 times as much gp as xp. So right from the start I know without going out and tailoring costs level by level, I'm not going to get things perfectly balanced across the board. But if I have to choose, I will choose to aim higher, because I don't think getting an extra +1 here and there at low level is going to break the game, and having the freedom to collect all of your standard +1s and still have some left over to pick up a few other perks is part of the fun.

Note: None of the below are how I would equip a character in actual play. I picked mostly numerical bonuses for ease of comparison, because it's hard to find a magic item that compares directly to "Gain Blindsight" or "Get spell resistance that isn't useless". Similarly there aren't any perks listed that directly correspond to something like "Gain +3 to all charisma checks" or "Gain +2 to all strength checks and deal extra damage when power attacking" both of which are great relatively cheap items that aren't being reproduced here.


Level 5 (9,000gp) [10,000xp]
+1 Weapon (2000gp) [1,000xp]
+1 Armor (1000gp) [500xp]
+1 Deflection (2000gp) [1,000xp]
+2 Saves (4000gp) [2,500xp]

Total: 9,000gp; 5,000xp

Okay so at this point, xp is clearly ahead, with 4,000xp left over after buying some basic numbers boosting gear. In actual play, the saves boost would likely be +1, and using magic items would result having 1-2 trinkets from MIC and some consumables, which is hard to compare to here. Even so, my above mentioned suggestion of increasing xp costs by 50% would still leave the xp system able to match with some left over to spare for other stuff. So leaning more towards that.

Level 10 (49,000gp) [45,000xp]
+3 Weapon (18,000gp) [9,000xp]
+2 Armor (4,000gp) [2,500xp]
+1 Deflection (2,000gp) [1,000xp]
+3 Saves (9,000gp) [6,000xp]
+4 Stat (16,000gp) [5,000xp]

Total: 49,000gp; 23,500xp

So the gap is slightly narrower this time (50% left over vs 48% left over), but the exp system still having a ton of wiggle room to buy more stuff than standard wealth. Increasing by 50% would leave an extra 9,750xp remaining for investment in other things (as opposed to the current 21,500).

Level 15 (200,000gp) [105,000xp]
+4 Weapon (32,000gp) [16,000xp]
+6 Stat (36,000gp) [15,000xp]
+4 Stat (16,000gp) [8,000xp]
+5 Saves (25,000gp) [17,500xp]
+5 Armor (25,000gp) [17,500xp]
+3 Deflection (18,000gp) [9,000xp]
+2 Natural (8,000gp) [4,000xp]
+20 Skill (40,000gp) [15,000xp]

Total: 200,000gp; 102,000xp.

So interestingly, at this point the two are nearly equal. Which means if I add the 50% multiplier, somewhere between 10 and 15 characters will go from being ahead of the curve to behind it. On the other hand, by those higher levels you can expect some useful loot to have shown up from some source or another to make up the difference.


Yeah I think I'm going to go with the change. I'll include a sidebar in the main post about how to adapt the system for anyone who wants a truly "no magic" campaign rather than just "no custom magic items, use what you can find" campaign, that involves experience costs dropping once you get past level 10. Say something like experience costs at every level above 10 drop by say 5% (so by level 20 you're paying half price, so instead of a +5 inherent bonus costing 67,500xp, it costs 33,750xp).

Sometime soonish(read: probably by Sunday) I am planning on making these changes:
1) Increase base exp cost and limit to *750 instead of *500.
2) Increase minimum level of +Skill bonus (effectively increasing costs)
3) Adjust minimum levels for DR
4) Pick a method of adjusting feat costs I like and implement it.
5) Pick a method of reducing costs for lower level stat enhancements.
6) Make above mentioned changes to Cure Spells.

Changes under consideration:
1) Lower minimum level/cost for weapons
2) Give a set list of Weapon/Armor properties that aren't too flamboyant, and allow purchase with exp. This one I'm really uncertain about and am probably going with no.
3) Adding some new perk options. Specifically thinking about Climb/Swim speed options, and +1-3 bonus to ability and skill checks involving a specific attribute (see: circlet of persuasion and similar items).


Any feedback on those potential changes, or anything you feel like I missed, I'll greatly appreciate.


Edit: Got all of the above done and implemented into the first post.

-Tweaked the DR progression rate such that DR15 is no longer attainable for a couple of the later options, so you choose between an easily bypassable DR that can go higher (and earlier) or a hard to bypass DR that comes online later and caps lower.
-Dropped the level requirement on weapon enhancements slightly.
-Adjusted the cost for increasing SR, so it now caps lower and costs more.
-Adjusted progression rate for +skill bonus, so it caps lower (now at +20) and comes online later.
-Set feat costs at a steady 5,000xp and made them an explicit exception to the 750 cap rule.
-Put a 33% cost reduction for follow up stat enhancements. Picked 33% because it continues to produce relatively nice round numbers.
-Removed previous modifications to cure spells. Changed it so instead Cure Spells always treated as having maximum caster level.

Did not add any new perks at this time. I still feel like I probably should (at least the ones mentioned in #3 above. Perks to defend against or enhance combat maneuvers probably also wouldn't go amiss, given how many magic items are out there that give +4 to resist trip/bullrush), but I'm not sure what level to set most of them at.


Also now on my to-do list: Add a Pathfinder conversion, with experience costs being set based on 3/4ths of a level for a medium progression Pathfinder character. It won't be so neat as the D&D chart since pathfinder exp grows exponentially, but I want to try putting it together and see what it looks like.

Fizban
2015-04-18, 04:13 AM
context
Yeah, that all sounds reasonable then. I think if my whole group had been focused and I had some more games under my belt we'd pretty much match.

But very rarely do I see a flat +5 weapon. . .but +30 skill items are a thing available by the rules, so should be obtainable here. . .For the most part miss chances are really popular because they let the character dump AC entirely,
My groups never got much past 10 and I know they weren't aiming for flat +X's either, that's what I meant by equivalent: +1 YZQ weapons. I was going to mention that the item pricing guidelines are just guidelines but I think I removed it while editing: between my opinion that the bonus shouldn't go that high and how I couldn't find any printed items that did, I would choose to ignore that bit of the table (I see you've rolled it back a bit, cool). As for miss chances, my groups haven't used them as much. Lack of arcane casters or leveled wealth sufficient to buy proper Cloaks of Displacement, and everyone having nearly the same AC because they're using similar armor (except the one AC tank build) meant most miss chances were from fog or darkness. So no one ever chose to completely dump AC. Of course I could also have biased them by pointing out that while miss chances are nice, dumping AC completely leaves you open to large power attacks that will be way more lethal if they beat miss chance. I've got my own theory that a number of problem classes can be solved with AC buffs in the right areas, but that's a different topic.

It's worth remembering that anything that possesses DR/magic can bypass DR/magic with its natural weapons. There's a ton of things out there that have DR/magic
But are there really? High level dragons, celestial or fiendish creatures you'll likely only meet through summon spells, and I think gargoyles in core? Oh, and Magmins and Mephits. I'm far more interested in the legions of nasty monsters that don't penetrate it, which is pretty much everything but the above (undead, aberrations, animals/vermin, magical beasts, demons/devils, etc). There are some more in splatbooks, sure, but materials are far more popular for monster DR than straight magic. You only penetrate DR that matches your own, which means high level monsters that require X+magic are still left out in the cold (well, checking back over the DR entries in srd and rules compendium this line seems to be missing, in which case maybe they could inherit the RC's line about "magic strike," but then we still have natural weapons with material DR not bypassing themselves)

Do note that at 1st level 500xp is half a level, and worth about 6 encounters.

Speaking of did you have any thoughts on the idea of making the exp cost scale when you level, so that 500xp feat eventually costs you 5000xp?

Alternatively I guess I could give feats a set cost somewhere between 3000 and 5000, and make them a special exception that can be bought above the normal level limitations. Or I could make it so you can purchase one extra feat per level, with each feat increasing in cost by 500 over the last.
Well I am assuming the game will go on long enough that the investment will pay off, but you have a group of competent players invested in the game so I figured that was a fair assumption. It doesn't really matter that 500xp is half a level or a 6 encounter delay: nothing you can buy at level 1 is an appreciable increase in survivability (it's all tactics or russian roulette), so waiting 6 encounters doesn't matter. As you level up the xp rewards get bigger until eventually you'll only be 1 encounter behind or less, but with an extra feat, and multiply as desired. The level scaling cost is a good idea, a level based cost for a level based ability, the only problem is that the best feats don't care about your level and are usually available at level 1. For something like a dragonmark or Precocious Apprentice that give level X abilities it works well, but Power Attack, Augment Healing, or Maximize spell do not. Unless by scaling cost you meant that buying a feat makes you pay another 500 every time you level up from then on. That might work, though it could end up being a bit of a trap if they don't realize that taking 1 feat is half a level behind for life, 2 feats a full level, etc.

What about a compromise? Leave cure spells exactly as they are, except make them independent of caster level. They always have the maximum caster level bonus. (So CLW is 1d8+5, CMW is 2d8+10, etc) Spending a healing surge, rather than maximizing the value, doubles it.
Hadn't considered that, looks pretty nice though. I doubt anyone would try to complain about lower level casters getting full bonus on their cure spells. Maximizing sounds cool but doubling works better anyway, sold.

From the notes and a quick check I think I like the changes. The DR and skill bonuses seem much more reasonable and I like the MAD saver discount. I had not intended to imply I thought the inherent bonuses needed a price increase, but since you applied the changes universally that did happen. It could be countered by reducing the level requirements by a few levels. Feats starting at 5000 is good, but I'd still suggest an increasing the cost every time you buy one. Depending on how high the campaign goes and how hardcore the optimizers maybe +2500 or +5000 each time, expensive enough they shouldn't try for more than 2-3 bonus feats, but if you've allowed lots of bonus feats in the past that might seem too harsh.

I think that's enough for now, I'll probably be back tomrrow. I still have words to say about those speed bonuses, and a few comparisons in mind for the senses, but those can wait. I admire your challenge of adapting the system to an exponential scale, good luck. I don't know the pathfinder xp formula, but since standard bonuses are also exponential maybe you'll be able to line the numbers up a lot better? I was never good at transforming graphs so I wouldn't know how to make the level jumps match a smoother level.

Seerow
2015-04-19, 01:52 PM
I am pretty sure DR/X and Magic still counts as magic for bypassing other DRs. It's more like having DR/Magic and DR/Whatever simultaneously. But you're right DR/Magic isn't quite as omnipresent as I thought.


As for Inherent Bonus, their prices got boosted as part of the general increase. There's a couple ways I could try to reduce costs:
1) Drop +1 inherent down to level 10, +2 levels for each increase (first +1 costs 7,500, ends at 52,500)
2) Leave +1 inherent at level 16, but get +2 every 2 levels after that, instead of +1 every level (first costs 12,000. Ends at 40,500.

The first way makes the first +1 way cheaper, but still leaves the end cost feeling a kind of high. The second takes away some flexibility (you can't get a +2 or +4), and takes longer to get started, but ends cheaper overall.


Edit: Oh and regarding feats, they're nice to have, but they're not overpowering. Making a high base price AND increasing cost per feat would be way overvaluing them. The 5000 per feat price point is coming from E6. As you point out most of the best feats are available right at low level, and despite that playing in an E6 game with 10-15 extra feats never felt more powerful than playing in a standard level 8-9 game. Honestly, I worry that given the competition from other benefits that players will avoid picking up any bonus feats as it is. Since by the time they can be easily afforded, most of those feats are going to be obsoleted.

Fizban
2015-04-21, 05:49 AM
I am pretty sure DR/X and Magic still counts as magic for bypassing other DRs. It's more like having DR/Magic and DR/Whatever simultaneously. But you're right DR/Magic isn't quite as omnipresent as I thought.
I remember rules lawyers quoting the exact place where it says DR only bypasses it's exact self, but I don't know where they were quoting, and obviously the SRD and RC don't explain the combo types. I prefer the strict ruling myself since I think it makes things more interesting. I think I read a demon with a demonslaying sword once that made no sense, but if it can't beat other demon's DR then it stats making sense again. Of course I don't like Pathfinder's reversion to the old enhancement bonus beats everything style that 3.5 specifically got rid of to keep DR interesting (or it's Adamantine beats everything), and you're using some of that.

Actually I think I'll protest that a bit more: with this system where any weapon you wield gets the enhancement, there's really no hardship in switching to the appropriate weapon for a foe. The only problem is if you dislike the "golf bag of weapons" fighter, but I have no problem with people being prepared. From the DM side, this lets monsters with DR still get some use out of it in the first round so it actually counts for something.

As for Inherent Bonus,
I'd go with option 1.

Edit: Oh and regarding feats,
You're right that if everyone has the same number of bonus feats it shouldn't be a problem, but unlike E6 this system will be asymetrical. In the end my examples are always fighter vs caster (since casters are stronger to start and easier to make better than that): casters will still need fewer perks, thus being able to buy more feats, making metamagic abuse builds easier. Not as much of a problem in E6, but if you want a system for any group that works into mid levels I think allowing too many bonus feats too easily is a problem. You could consider the issue balanced out with metamagic rods being unavailable, but I think we all know those never should have existed in the first place. 5000 apiece is probably already enough, but when it comes to buying feats and class features I prefer to err on the side of no.

As you can imagine all I was really going to say about the speed boosts is that I think they're too high. Once again, I've never seen any item printed with a continuous speed bonus above +10 except the Horseshoes of Speed. At for myself, I was constantly annoyed that the party tank was moving at the standard 30' in his heavy armor thanks to Boots of Striding and Springing, when I was limited to light armor. If I jumped through the hoops to make a speed build I'd be pretty miffed to find out anyone could just buy their way up to the same speed without trying, forcing me to buy the same bonuses just to maintain my advantage. Monk speed bonus is typed as enhancement for some reason, so they're just crying. And it plays some havoc with monsters that are supposed to be faster than you.

For special senses, from the list of neccesary magic items: 9,000gp for 30' blindsight but you're also blind, 30k for 30' blindsense, or 55k for blindsense 30' with +10 spot and search. Consinuous blindsight is not available, and I am ignoring the graft because grafts are inconsistent. Blindsense is supposed to be really expensive for continuous function, and for good reason since it's basically as build and monster negating as continuous freedom of movement or death ward. Low-light vision is mostly fine (it is a racial ability and costs a few thousand if you can find an item of it), as is scent due to it's vagueness. For stronger senses, I much prefer making people ration their scanning batteries for when they really need it, rather then making every encounter area 30' wider in all directions so ambushes are physically possible again. Like with DR above, the usual crop of limited use on demand sense items let the bad guys do their thing for a round before the PCs negate their stuff, rather than just negating a whole class of monster.

Speaking of buying class abilities, have you considered upgrade options for those? The obvious buying of spell slots or spells known, but you could add lines for extra rages, smites, etc. I'd expect a lot of the piles of feats in E6 end up going to extra ammo feats for anyone that has a limit, and having those on a separate cheaper entry than the bonus feats would take some pressure off. I get the feeling you want to keep the perks here as pure as possible, but there's precedent with some feats granted limited use of special senses and you could do limited sprinting for speed bonuses if you wanted.