[3.5] Undead and Cha

[Thurbane]

I'm pretty sure I've seen someone on these forums cite a rule that Undead (or perhaps monsters generally) use Cha for the DC of special attacks that would be based on a non-ability (like Con).

Can anyone point me to this please?

Cheers - T

[AmberVael]

Charisma is the default ability score for any special ability, but if an ability is specifically stated to run on some other ability score there is no general rule that lets you change it to Charisma, nor an undead specific one that I know of.

Unless you are playing Pathfinder, where Undead can just use charisma. I wouldn't be surprised if that is the context you saw it in. (It is listed under the effects of the Undead type on the PFsrd). (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Undead)

[WhamBamSam]

It's buried towards the back of the Monster Manual in a section on creating monsters, but it is indeed a rule. It applies to any non-ability and any creature type (though undead are the most common type to which it applies).

Here it is for your reading pleasure.


Charisma: Use Charisma for anything pitting the creature's will against an opponent: gaze attacks, charms, compulsions, or energy drain. The creature's Charisima modifier also determines the save DC for any spell-like abilities it has (no matter what form they take).
Also use Charisma for any DC that normally would be based on an ability score the creature does not have. For example, undead creatures have no Constitution score, so any poison attacks they have would use Charisma to determine the save DC.

[Thurbane]

It's buried towards the back of the Monster Manual in a section on creating monsters, but it is indeed a rule. It applies to any non-ability and any creature type (though undead are the most common type to which it applies).

Here it is for your reading pleasure.

That's exactly what I was looking for, thank you!

[AmberVael]

It's buried towards the back of the Monster Manual in a section on creating monsters, but it is indeed a rule. It applies to any non-ability and any creature type (though undead are the most common type to which it applies).

Here it is for your reading pleasure.

Well, that's interesting. It doesn't look like it made it into the SRD anywhere...
Very good to know.

[WhamBamSam]

Well, that's interesting. It doesn't look like it made it into the SRD anywhere...
Very good to know.Yeah, it's missing from the SRD. It's pretty much the only thing (besides the pretty pictures) that the actual Monster Manual book is good for with the OGL, but hey, what can you do?


That's exactly what I was looking for, thank you!No problem. Glad to help.

[AmberVael]

There are a few other bits and pieces that the SRD either gets wrong or leaves out (like its description of energy resistance, which is just wrong, or how it leaves out the phrase under psionic independent research that clarifies that you can't learn more powers known than normal using it) that it is good to have the books for. Looks like this one will be going on that list.

[Eloel]

Yeah, it's missing from the SRD. It's pretty much the only thing (besides the pretty pictures) that the actual Monster Manual book is good for with the OGL, but hey, what can you do?

Beholders and stuff?

[WhamBamSam]

There are a few other bits and pieces that the SRD either gets wrong or leaves out (like its description of energy resistance, which is just wrong, or how it leaves out the phrase under psionic independent research that clarifies that you can't learn more powers known than normal using it) that it is good to have the books for. Looks like this one will be going on that list.
Beholders and stuff?Yeah, fair enough. I guess I sort of forget about these things until I need to make a beholder or get such rules involved with the game. The thing about special attacks and lack of ability scores comes up a bit more in general forum discussions/optimization, so it's the thing that's most noticeable in its absence from the SRD, at least for me.

[Thurbane]

Just to go back to this briefly...would this mean that an Undead Barbarian would have the duration of it's Rage based off Charisma?

Never mind, just had a lala moment - it's only for abilities with a DC.

[The Viscount]

It's also lacking in 3.0 sources for whatever reason, so if they aren't updated you have to do it manually. An example is the Bhut. A weird one is the Dread Ram from Ghostwalk which has an awkward fake Con score for breath weapon.

[Thurbane]

It's also lacking in 3.0 sources for whatever reason, so if they aren't updated you have to do it manually. An example is the Bhut. A weird one is the Dread Ram from Ghostwalk which has an awkward fake Con score for breath weapon.

I used a Dread Ram with a Narzugon rider in my campaign recently - from memory, the 3.5 update does away with the whole Undead Bulk/fake Con score thingy.

[The Viscount]

Indeed they did. Bhut, to the best of my knowledge, has not been properly updated, so you have to recalculate saves, same with any un-updated 3.0 undead.

Looking at the other undead, the Abyssal Ghoul, Ulgurtasta and Hullathoin require save adjustments, though the Hullathoin's poison has a different DC from its other abilities. If it added Cha to the DC this would oddly work, but it might just be a typo.