need help with gestalt as a dm

[kaffalidjmah]

Ok, my player asked for a gestalt spin-off (or maybe a full campaign sec, it depends).

I have read the gestalt handbook, and readed a lot of every class, from now, for sure there is only a warblade//factotum (very cheesy) and most probably a monk//wizard with kung fu genius or carmendine monk (off topic, there is difference?), there are other 3 that are not sure on what to take.

As a DM, if they are level 5, total of 5 people (no leadership) how much is increased the CR of the party? I have to throw pack of dire polar bear at them? Or maybe an hunting party composed of half-orc Lion totem riding remorhaz? And when they are level 20? (most probably they will stuck into the "base" class until then, no prestige, no multiclassing)

And, ipotetical question, in the tier sistem, what are the combinantion that can significantly go up one or two tier? (or more)

Thank anyone for the advice

[WhamBamSam]

One thing I've been considering for a gestalt campaign like the one you're considering (where it's a decent sized group, rather than a small group that needs more roles filled) is to gestalt enemies up to their CR. So for example a CR5 Very Young Red Dragon might be Red Dragon 10//Sorcerer 5 or what have you. It has the potential to get a little borked (as all CR-based optimization does), but it seems like it might work for a highish-power campaign.

If you don't want to bother with that, or want to use things not smart enough for class levels, I'd treat things as about 2 CR lower than normal. So that CR5 Very Young Red Dragon would be CR3.

[nedz]

Gestalt increases character options, which is what the tier system models, so this might increase their tiers. This should have more impact on lower tier combos, but I could be wrong here. Wizard // X is likely to still be T1, even if X is also T1 - mainly because of the action economy; whilst warblade//factotum is probably T3. So that X//Y would probably just be the highest of X and Y's tiers for much of the time.

BTW There is no difference between kung fu genius or carmendine monk.

[Douglas]

BTW There is no difference between kung fu genius or carmendine monk.
Not quite. Carmendine Monk requires you to be a member of a particular monk order, and gives a small additional bonus. Quite small.

[Hellborn_Blight]

The SRD's basic idea's on this have worked well for the game I'm in right now.


Challenge Ratings
Gestalt characters can obviously handle more opposition than standard characters. The simplest way to compensate for this is to use adventures with tougher monsters. In general, a party of four gestalt characters can handle multiple encounters with a single monster of a Challenge Rating equal to their average level + 1. If the monster poses a challenge because it forces the characters to succeed on life-threatening saving throws (such as with a medusa or a wyvern), it’s even weaker against gestalt characters, who have few or no weak saves. Characters can handle multiple encounters with such monsters at a Challenge Rating equal to their average level + 2. A shambling mound (CR 6) or a medusa (CR 7) would be appropriate average encounters for four 5th-level gestalt characters. If you take this approach, realize that characters gain levels faster than in a typical campaign, because they’re gaining experience points as if those encounters were harder than they actually are. You’re obviously comfortable with a high-powered game, so faster advancement may be an additional benefit, not a problem. if you rely on published adventures, this is the easiest option.

If you want to keep level advancement at the standard average of thirteen encounters per level, reduce the Challenge Ratings of all the monsters and NPCs in your campaign by 1 (or by 2 if they rely on failed PC saving throws to pose a challenge). The shambling mound and the medusa would both become CR 5 monsters, and the gestalt characters gain levels at the usual rate. Monsters with a Challenge Rating of 1 become CR 1/2, and other monsters with fractional Challenge Ratings have their CRs cut in half (kobolds become CR 1/6, in other words). Many staple low-CR monsters don’t work well against a party of gestalt characters, even 1st-level gestalts

The main issue for our DM has been we are an opti-party, which we all enjoy DM included, but the difficulties inherent to such a group is exacerbated with the additional combos you can make with having 2 classes. To help the DM out and spice things up, everyone chose at least a 2 level adjustment which made us have to be very careful due to low HP. One of us died to an AoO crit this way... Other than just sending tougher stuff at them you will definitely need to send stuff that they have trouble dealing with as opposed to just random monsters of the appropriate CR. If they are a high damage group, figure out what allows them to deal the damage they deal. If they favor physical damage DR is useful, (except against the warblade sometimes...), if they like fire spells, then something that resists fire. If they were silly enough to not invest much in spot/listen, then mundane hiding creatures are really effective.

Speaking of which, things like the dark template, or Lolth Touched are a great way to just slide a CR adjustment on to creatures you wanna use if you have a campaign theme going with your monsters. Specifically, those templates, along with feral and a few others are the one you wanna try to use because they are so dang powerful they'll help with the power disparity.

Making specialized combatants is another good way to attack them. Trippers, Grapplers, and Disarmers can really disrupt a parties rhythm. An invisible/hidden, dedicated counter-speller is a huge hindrance. A roof top archer ambush is great, and don't forget the potions.

[kaffalidjmah]

Thanks for all the answer, i have some nice idea for the new encounter...hope that work

[Sliver]

I'm currently seeing how well a party of 10 characters, all tristalt at level 10 with a few extra boosts, can handle a somewhat optimized old mist dragon, CR 16. Will report my findings if this thread is still alive by the time it's done. :smalltongue:

[atemu1234]

I'm currently seeing how well a party of 10 characters, all tristalt at level 10 with a few extra boosts, can handle a somewhat optimized old mist dragon, CR 16. Will report my findings if this thread is still alive by the time it's done. :smalltongue:

What are the combinations?