How can I effectively use a tiefling's darkness ability?

[Corwin_of_Amber]

I'm playing a tiefling magus and I'm wondering how I can make effective use of the darkness SLA. It seems much less useful than the 3.5 version which granted concealment and thwarted darkvision. We also have a wizard, barbarian, and bard in the party if that could be used advantageously.

[Psyren]

In 3.5 it granted concealment to your enemies too, since you couldn't see through it either. That made more sense to you? :smalltongue:

I'd just skip it entirely and go with the Maw or Claw alternate racial, the Soul Seer alternate racial, or be a Daemon-Spawn for Death Knell instead.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

Well, it didn't make more sense to me. Of course lots of the things that happen in D&D don't make sense to me. :smallbiggrin:

I already took prehensile tail, because not having to spend standard or move actions to find wands and trinkets is always good, otherwise I would have taken the deathwatch ability. And I don't think my DM will let me spontaneously grow claws and stuff (because he's not cool like that).

[Yanisa]

You can swap multiple racial traits as long as they don't replace or alter the same base traits... but I guess that's something your DM also isn't cool with? :smalltongue:

Regardless you can use darkness as a defensive spell, as long as you fight against enemies that don't have darkvision. As stated, you get the concealment, but they don't. Darkness also lasts a minute per level, so you can "buff" yourself before combat, so it doesn't waste an action in combat.

Depending on the campaign/dm you might also can use darkness as a way of sneaking around in the night. If the general guard doesn't know magic they might fear sudden darker then normal spots and just look the other way rather then inspect it. And they aren't going to tell their guard captain that they were afraid of the darkness.

Or use it to annoy pc's that constantly cast light because they lack darkvision. :smalltongue:

[Ryulin18]

I'm playing a tiefling magus

If you're in the middle of a game, with a pre-rolled character, the advanced race guides alternate racial traits is of no help. But you can swap darkness for a bite/claw attack

Otherise, As a player, memorize every spell with the light descriptor (http://www.pathfinder-srd.nl/wiki/Category:Spells_with_the_light_descriptor) and use it to counter and dispel them.

[Psyren]

If you're in the middle of a game, with a pre-rolled character, the advanced race guides alternate racial traits is of no help. But you can swap darkness for a bite/claw attack

You can retrain racial traits in-game actually - it will take 20 days and another tiefling, but it's possible.


Otherise, As a player, memorize every spell with the light descriptor (http://www.pathfinder-srd.nl/wiki/Category:Spells_with_the_light_descriptor) and use it to counter and dispel them.

SLAs unfortunately can't be used to counter, though he can dispel with it.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

You can swap multiple racial traits as long as they don't replace or alter the same base traits... but I guess that's something your DM also isn't cool with? :smalltongue:

It's not that, it's the fact that I took prehensile tail and both that and the deathwatch ability trade away fiendish sorcery. I think the tail is infinitely better since I also have UMD for extra utility.




Otherise, As a player, memorize every spell with the light descriptor (http://www.pathfinder-srd.nl/wiki/Category:Spells_with_the_light_descriptor) and use it to counter and dispel them.

That's not a terrible idea. It's at least a silver bullet.


You can retrain racial traits in-game actually - it will take 20 days and another tiefling, but it's possible.

Ah, I just found the retraining rules. I suppose having a natural attack is better than not having one. I'm just wondering if the cost of natural spell combat is worth delaying other arcana.



Thank you.

[Psyren]

It's not that, it's the fact that I took prehensile tail and both that and the deathwatch ability trade away fiendish sorcery. I think the tail is infinitely better since I also have UMD for extra utility.

You can also use metamagic rods with the tail. It's one of the reasons Tieflings make such good magi.


Ah, I just found the retraining rules. I suppose having a natural attack is better than not having one. I'm just wondering if the cost of natural spell combat is worth delaying other arcana.

If you choose the claw, you won't need Natural Spell Combat to use it - but you won't be able to use it if you use a manufactured weapon.

[Boci]

In 3.5 it granted concealment to your enemies too, since you couldn't see through it either. That made more sense to you? :smalltongue:

Why doesn't that make sense? From a world building perspective, why do you think its silly for a creature not be impervious to their own magic? Why is it weird that a creature can summon a darkness so black not even they can see through it?

[Psyren]

Why doesn't that make sense? From a world building perspective, why do you think its silly for a creature not be impervious to their own magic? Why is it weird that a creature can summon a darkness so black not even they can see through it?

Evolving a disadvantage like that just seems silly to me.

But 3.5 darkness is silly in general, given that it can actually make the room brighter.

[Boci]

Evolving a disadvantage like that just seems silly to me.

Umm, what? They control when and where to cast it, so it cannot be a disadvantage. That's like saying the strength to hit hard is an evolved disadvantage when you keep punching yourself in the face.


But 3.5 darkness is silly in general, given that it can actually make the room brighter.

No argument here.

[Psyren]

Umm, what? They control when and where to cast it, so it cannot be a disadvantage.

At best, the 3.5 tiefling can place it in such a way that it is less disadvantageous to him than to a theoretical second party. But the fact remains that, no matter the time of day he uses it, it is magical darkness and thus he cannot see through it either. Thus I find it silly.

I suspect you're not going to agree with me even if we do another 5 pages on this so I'll leave it at that.

[Boci]

At best, the 3.5 tiefling can place it in such a way that it is less disadvantageous to him than to a theoretical second party. But the fact remains that, no matter the time of day he uses it, it is magical darkness and thus he cannot see through it either. Thus I find it silly.

I suspect you're not going to agree with me even if we do another 5 pages on this so I'll leave it at that.

Yes, because I find the stance utterly illogical. You are basically saying that a human in the real world is made weaker by the ability to create darkness, at a time and place of their choosing, because they cannot see in it, which makes no sense. At worst, it is a useless ability that makes them no stronger, in no circumstance will it make them weaker.

[Psyren]

Right, moving on then.

@OP: Another option is to retrain your first-level feat to Fiendish Heritage. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fiendish-heritage) This gives you a potentially wide variety of things you can swap out the darkness SLA for. While the feat defaults to your replacement ability being random, at the GM's option you can select from the list instead.

You can even change the type of Tiefling you are, adjusting your stat bonuses and penalty appropriately. By retraining your archetype to Eldritch Scion, you can select one of the Cha-based Tieflings like Kyton-Spawn.

[Vhaidara]

Right, moving on then.

@OP: Another option is to retrain your first-level feat to Fiendish Heritage. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fiendish-heritage) This gives you a potentially wide variety of things you can swap out the darkness SLA for. While the feat defaults to your replacement ability being random, at the GM's option you can select from the list instead.

You can even change the type of Tiefling you are, adjusting your stat bonuses and penalty appropriately. By retraining your archetype to Eldritch Scion, you can select one of the Cha-based Tieflings like Kyton-Spawn.

Honestly, ask your GM if you can do without the feat. Aasimar and Dhampir both have access to alternate heritages without spending a feat. This is just Paizo saying **** you to Tieflings. Again.

[Boci]

Honestly, ask your GM if you can do without the feat. Aasimar and Dhampir both have access to alternate heritages without spending a feat. This is just Paizo saying **** you to Tieflings. Again.

Apparently Blood of the Fiends already did that.

[Psyren]

Honestly, ask your GM if you can do without the feat. Aasimar and Dhampir both have access to alternate heritages without spending a feat. This is just Paizo saying **** you to Tieflings. Again.

You can do it without the feat - but there are no rules for retraining your race (unless you reincarnate or something.) So I brought up the feat as a way to do it if the game was already in progress.

(And without meaning to offend, it might be better to hold off on sweeping statements about Paizo until you have a firm grasp of what's out there option-wise.)

[Boci]

(And without meaning to offend, it's better to hold off on sweeping statements about Paizo until you have a firm grasp of what's out there option-wise.)

Its a pretty common attitude, as Assimar are considered a stronger race by Paizo's own race point system (I think its 15 for them vs. 12 for tieflings. My player felt they were being shafted for no good reason too. If you want to change that view, perhaps you could offer an alternative view or motivation, rather than a vague "master all of PF and then you can complain". Or don't, no ones forcing your hand.

[Psyren]

I guess I just don't see how offering a bevy of useful racials (like a tail that can hold metamagic rods, or natural attacks, or natural armor), as well as a bunch of alternate stat distributions, and finally a bunch of favored class bonuses - all for 0 LA - can be rationally described as "**** you to Tieflings." As good as Aasimar, maybe not, but the race is hardly suffering.

And I'm not stopping anyone from complaining, no matter how misguided those complaints might be when viewed empirically.

[Boci]

I guess I just don't see how offering a bevy of useful racials (like a tail that can hold metamagic rods, or natural attacks, or natural armor), as well as a bunch of alternate stat distributions, and finally a bunch of favored class bonuses - all for 0 LA - can be rationally described as "**** you to Tieflings."

Thanks you, those are actual points that can be understood.


As good as Aasimar, maybe not, but the race is hardly suffering.

The problem is how much the tiefling and aasimar race mirror each other. This isn't like human and elves, where the only important thing is that they both be good, they are two sides of the same coin, the same concept (poutsider blood in humanoids) so any anything one side gets that the other doesn't, like free racial variants vs. racial varaints for a feat, can be seen as shafting the tiefling, because unlike other races which can only be vaguely compared to all other race options, the tiefling can be directly compared to a single one.

[Psyren]

Thanks you, those are actual points that can be understood.

I didn't think I needed to enumerate things that are right there on the race page, but I guess I was mistaken.


The problem is how much the tiefling and aasimar race mirror each other. This isn't like human and elves, where the only important thing is that they both be good, they are two sides of the same coin, the same concept (poutsider blood in humanoids) so any anything one side gets that the other doesn't, like free racial variants vs. racial varaints for a feat, can be seen as shafting the tiefling, because unlike other races which can only be vaguely compared to all other race options, the tiefling can be directly compared to a single one.

Mirror or not, "Weaker than Aasimar" is not particularly damning. The majority of the PF races fall into that category. I don't, and likely won't, consider it to be a particularly meaningful descriptor.

[Boci]

I didn't think I needed to enumerate things that are right there on the race page, but I guess I was mistaken.

Its only good manners. PF is a big game, others don't magically know what you mean when you refer to "other stuff".


Mirror or not, "Weaker than Aasimar" is not particularly damning.

That's an entirely reasonable stance, but I feel that so is comparing humanoids with the blood of evil outsiders directly to humanoids with the blood good outsiders, as oppose to all other races in general. I certainly don't view that as "misguided".

[Psyren]

When I said "misguided," I was referring to the "omg Paizo hates tieflings!!11!" stance that, in my view, either came out of nowhere or is based on a misunderstanding of the game in general.

Regardless I think this particular digression has also been thoroughly debated.

[Boci]

When I said "misguided," I was referring to the "omg Paizo hates tieflings!!11!" stance that, in my view, either came out of nowhere or is based on a misunderstanding of the game in general.

I understand, I never thought you meant anything else by it. What I don't understand is how you can't see why some people think that giving the aasimar something for free the tiefling has to pay for is screwing over the latter, given the joint concept of outsider blood both races share. "Hate" is a strong word sure, but the internet thrives on unnecessarily strong language.


Regardless I think this particular digression has also been thoroughly debated.

Probably.

[Abd al-Azrad]

Moonlight Stalker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/moonlight-stalker-combat) seems the way to go, if the OP is still interested in making the most of his racial ability to create concealment. Three feats on a magus is a pretty large investment, but +2 to hit and damage, plus an option to boost his AC, plus rerolling miss chances, are all good.

I suspect you'll probably move to using Displacement or Greater Invisibility eventually, as more and more enemies appear with Darkvision. But humans won't have it, and you will likely always have human foes at any point in your career.

[Troacctid]

Why doesn't that make sense? From a world building perspective, why do you think its silly for a creature not be impervious to their own magic? Why is it weird that a creature can summon a darkness so black not even they can see through it?

We're talking about a rule that says if you're in the shadows, everyone has concealment from you, even if they're standing in daylight. :smalltongue:

[Boci]

We're talking about a rule that says if you're in the shadows, everyone has concealment from you, even if they're standing in daylight. :smalltongue:

I agreed that the rules on darkness were silly, I just found the idea that it was silly for a race to be able to summon darkness they can't see through strange.

[Anlashok]

Your best choice would probably have been the +2 int bonus, but some DMs are sketchy about it.


I already took prehensile tail, because not having to spend standard or move actions to find wands and trinkets is always good

I'm reasonably sure that tiefling subraces can still take alternate racial traits.

[atemu1234]

Evolving a disadvantage like that just seems silly to me.

But 3.5 darkness is silly in general, given that it can actually make the room brighter.

But Tieflings didn't evolve as a race.

[wizardpants]

This pixie has 2cp to add (and is sorry if anyone else has mentioned it already):

1st - Darkness grants you concealment, which allows for Stealth checks. Granted, people will notice that is has suddenly gotten darker when the cloud of Dim Lighting approaches, but it'll still make for a baller surprise round when they dispel the darkness and get jumped by a full PC party.

EDIT: I failed to mention that when combined with harassing your DM about the weather, you can stealth in broad daylight. At any point, if there's cloud in the sky, the sun is obfuscated and the lighting is considered "Normal" instead of "bright". Therefore, Darkness would reduce this to a further "Dim" level, allowing for concealment in the daytime, with no cover other than the spell.

This is assuming, of course, your DM doesn't just make it sunny at all times, forever, hail Pelor.

2nd - "Weaker than Aasimar" is not a fair way to judge races in Pathfinder. By their own Race Creator section, they tell us that Aasimars use the most points out of all the races (15 RP). By comparison, Races are considered to have an LA+1 at 20 RP, Drow use 14, Tieflings use 13, Humans use 9, and Kobolds use 5.

However, none of this really explains why they gave Aasimar so much power; I just wanted to say that comparing any non-LA race to pathfinder's Aasimar is a moot point.

[Vhaidara]

2nd - "Weaker than Aasimar" is not a fair way to judge races in Pathfinder. By their own Race Creator section, they tell us that Aasimars use the most points out of all the races (15 RP). By comparison, Races are considered to have an LA+1 at 20 RP, Drow use 14, Tieflings use 13, Humans use 9, and Kobolds use 5.

However, none of this really explains why they gave Aasimar so much power; I just wanted to say that comparing any non-LA race to pathfinder's Aasimar is a moot point.

The reason it's valid here is that Tiefling and Aasimar are supposed to be two sides of the same coin.

Also, considering that Humans are stronger than both Tieflings and Aasimar, this is just more evidence that Race Points were not thought out well.

[wizardpants]

Fair point, Keledrath. Sorry for speaking without first understanding. :\

On a related note, Darkness says that "Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness." Does this mean that if there was a completely dark area lit with torches and you used Darkness on the area, the torches would have no effect whatsoever and the area would be left completely dark?

Also, is the sun a non-magical light source? :s So many newbie questions, so little time.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

I appreciate the advice. Honestly, I think if the prehensile tail is on the table it makes Tieflings much stronger than anything the Aasimar can do. They do have the unique little trick of taking the lesser age resistance in place of their normal SLA, but that just amounts to a mini-dragonwrought kobold. Having an extra hand is a huge benefit. IIRC, it was a belt in 3.5 worth over 10k.

I think what I might do is ask my DM if I can take the fog cloud SLA from the random list in place of darkness.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Blinding Sneak Attack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/blinding-sneak-attack-combat) is one of the few sneak attack feats that's good. So there's that. Pretty much requires another feat to get additional uses per day to justify the investment. Or have a caster ally that can provide darkness / deeper darkness to you more often. Relying on wands/scrolls would be rather pricy.

That's pretty much the only decent use for it.