Rogues assassinate ability - Any official ruling?

[LucianoAr]

what of these 2 is the definite ruling of the rogues assassin ability?

you are in hiding, you surprise and attack a target, you get advantage on the attack and critical hit on the first round


now, on the second round, considering you beat the opponent on the initiative roll, what do you get?

1- advantage on the attack roll, and a critical hit
2- advantage on the attack roll, and no critical hit, as the opponent doesnt count as surprised


TL;DR: Do you get a critical hit when you beat an opponent on the initiative roll? or just advantage?

interpretations are ok, but id like to know if theres any official word about it

[MrStabby]

I think I have seen a Crawford comment that surprised continues untill they take their first action. Untill then they are surprised and subject to criticals. Being surprised is worse than being Incapacitated!

[jkat718]

Mearls said here (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/10/08/how-long-surprise-last/) that surprise ends after a creature's first turn in combat. The thing is, "surprised" is not a condition, per se. The book says:
If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends. That is, there is no Surprised condition, just the fact that creatures can't do certain things if they were unaware of their attackers. The Assassinate ability calls out "any creature that hasn't taken a turn in the combat yet" and "a creature that is surprised" separately, which means that OP's second scenario is correct.

TL;DR: Option two.

[ad_hoc]

1- advantage on the attack roll, and a critical hit
2- advantage on the attack roll, and no critical hit, as the opponent doesnt count as surprised

Neither.

There are no more surprise rounds.

Everyone rolls initiative at the start of combat. If you are surprised then your turn simply consists of ending being surprised.

If a creature was surprised and is no longer surprised it is because they took a turn. Since they took a turn you don't get advantage against them anymore.

Or in other words you need to win initiative to be able to assassinate.

[jkat718]

@ad_hoc: "Not being surprised" =/= "not having taken a turn"
Here's an example:

Sneaky McStabbyStabs, world-renowned Assassin, is going to go kill Nick P. Cadwell, some poor shmuck.

+ Sneaky does what he does best (sneaking), and Nick doesn't notice him.
**Encounter begins**
+ Nick is surprised, Sneaky is not.
**Combat begins**
+ Sneaky gets a nat 20 (of course) and Nick GOT A FOUR (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0090.html).
+ Sneaky does what he does second best (stabbing). Because Nick hasn't taken a turn yet, he uses the level 3 Assassin ability to gain advantage on the attack roll, which he lands, declaring "sneak attack, b*tch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html)." He also auto-crits because of Assassinate.
+ Nick is surprised, so he cannot use his reaction to parry.
+ Nicks turn! He can't do anything; he's surprised. He does, however have a bonus action, but he doesn't have anything to use there.
+ Sneaky's turn! Nick is no longer surprised, but he hasn't taken an action yet, so Sneaky gets advantage, but not an auto-crit. He can, however, use the advantage to sneak attack. He does, Nick dies, all is good. Looting commences.

[Easy_Lee]

The book does not make this clear. It has two possible definitions of surprised, both from PHB 189:

"Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is susprised at the start of the encounter."
"If you're susprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends."

The first suggests that surprise is only valid at the very start of the encounter, meaning it would apply only to the assassin's first turn and he would have to win initiative to get it. The second suggests that "surprised" is a condition which lasts until the end of the surprised target's first turn.

What makes the most sense to me is that a creature is surprised and vulnerable until their first turn. The fact that being surprised prevents them from acting or even reacting until after that turn suggests that this is the reason why assassins are able to exploit their vulnerability.

[ad_hoc]

+ Nicks turn! He can't do anything; he's surprised. He does, however have a bonus action, but he doesn't have anything to use there.

He doesn't get to use a bonus action either.

"anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking bonus actions."


+ Sneaky's turn! Nick is no longer surprised, but he hasn't taken an action yet, so Sneaky gets advantage, but not an auto-crit. He can, however, use the advantage to sneak attack. He does, Nick dies, all is good. Looting commences.

He has taken a turn though so there is no advantage.

"You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn't taken a turn in the combat yet."

It makes no mention of whether or not they have taken an action.


The first suggests that surprise is only valid at the very start of the encounter, meaning it would apply only to the assassin's first turn and he would have to win initiative to get it. The second suggests that "surprised" is a condition which lasts until the end of the surprised target's first turn.

Both situations amount to the same thing.

*edit*

But yes, I agree with your reasoning.

[jkat718]

He doesn't get to use a bonus action either.

"anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking bonus actions."
Oh, yeah...sorry, I forgot about that. Thanks for the correction!



He has taken a turn though so there is no advantage.

"You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn't taken a turn in the combat yet."

It makes no mention of whether or not they have taken an action.
Correct again; my mistake.

[ad_hoc]

(: Glad we worked that out.

And to clarify this point in the OP


you are in hiding, you surprise and attack a target, you get advantage on the attack and critical hit on the first round

Even if you surprise an enemy you do not get to use your assassinate if they win initiative.

Here is a flowchart:

Did you win initiative against the enemy combatant?

Yes - Get advantage on all of your attacks for your first turn against that enemy.

--Did you also surprise them?

--Yes - All of your hits on your first turn against that combatant are critical hits.

--No - No further effect

No - No effect this combat against that combatant

[jkat718]

@ad_hoc: Here's a slightly easier-to-read version of your flowchart.



Won initiative?


Yes
No


Surprised target?
↓


Yes
No
↓


Adv. & crits
Adv.
--

[ad_hoc]

That's great. Well done.

[jkat718]

This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?341034-table-s-in-the-Playground-All-you-want-to-know-about-the-table-code) has some super helpful tricks for making BBCode tables. It's where I learned about the colspan attribute for table cells.

[LucianoAr]

i think its kind of ridiculous that you HAVE to win initiative, even with top notch hiding.


rp wise, the opponent is not even aware that youre there, how is he rolling or doing anything before you take an action (attack action)?

actually, losing initiative in hiding is even worse than charging your enemy upfront and winning it


is there any ruling saying that the surprise round does not exist anymore?

[ad_hoc]

i think its kind of ridiculous that you HAVE to win initiative, even with top notch hiding.


rp wise, the opponent is not even aware that youre there, how is he rolling or doing anything before you take an action (attack action)?

actually, losing initiative in hiding is even worse than charging your enemy upfront and winning it


is there any ruling saying that the surprise round does not exist anymore?

It never existed. Not in 5e. This is a new game. It's like asking if there is any ruling that thac0 doesn't exist anymore. The rules about surprise are on pg 189.

As for the logic of it, it makes sense to me. This kind of thing happens in espionage movies a lot. You sneak up on someone but just as the assassin is about to take them out they react and defend themselves. The assassin still has the edge at the beginning but a fight happens instead of an assassination.

Of course it is the DM's call too. An opponent being tired might get disadvantage to their initiative. There are all sorts of circumstances that could change things.

[Giant2005]

Initiative doesn't even get rolled unless combat starts and two parties cannot be in combat if one party doesn't even know the other exists.
To me, combat would go like this:
Hide
Attack
Initiative
Combat.


If you win on initiative then you could potentially get off two assassinates before your enemy is no longer surprised (One prior to the initiation of combat and one prior to their turn).

[ad_hoc]

Initiative doesn't even get rolled unless combat starts and two parties cannot be in combat if one party doesn't even know the other exists.
To me, combat would go like this:
Hide
Attack
Initiative
Combat.


If you win on initiative then you could potentially get off two assassinates before your enemy is no longer surprised (One prior to the initiation of combat and one prior to their turn).

So for a full 6 seconds the opponent is not allowed to even defend themselves because they didn't know about the enemy before their attacks start?

They can be attacked 8 or 9 times by 1 opponent, or heck, 50 times by a group of rogues and it isn't combat yet?

There is a Combat Step By Step sidebar on pg. 189 that spells it out.

[Giant2005]

They can be attacked 8 or 9 times by 1 opponent, or heck, 50 times by a group of rogues and it isn't combat yet?
Yes to the former, no to the latter (Although I guess if those 50 Rogues staggered their attacks long enough and remained hidden the entire time they might be able to pull it off).


There is a Combat Step By Step sidebar on pg. 189 that spells it out.

Sure does but it doesn't include anything that occurs prior to combat (such as stealthing and such).

[LucianoAr]

It never existed. Not in 5e. This is a new game. It's like asking if there is any ruling that thac0 doesn't exist anymore. The rules about surprise are on pg 189.

As for the logic of it, it makes sense to me. This kind of thing happens in espionage movies a lot. You sneak up on someone but just as the assassin is about to take them out they react and defend themselves. The assassin still has the edge at the beginning but a fight happens instead of an assassination.

Of course it is the DM's call too. An opponent being tired might get disadvantage to their initiative. There are all sorts of circumstances that could change things.

imagine a ranged attack

opponent is still and relaxed, rogue shoots an arrow, he gets adv on the roll because of that (i cant think of a way thats logical for you to lose that adv on a still opponent)

if you lose the initiative, the guy kinda notices the arrow and moves a bit, the arrow hits the arm instead of the heart, no critical, if you win the initiative, its a critical hit

that is logical and makes sense. however losing the advantage to someone who doesnt even know youre there is ridiculous

[ad_hoc]

Yes to the former, no to the latter (Although I guess if those 50 Rogues staggered their attacks long enough and remained hidden the entire time they might be able to pull it off).


Sure does but it doesn't include anything that occurs prior to combat (such as stealthing and such).

I think often the best way to figure out if it makes sense is to flip it around.

If the players were to be told that they are all dead now. That they didn't know the enemy was there and they were killed before they could defend themselves because their passive perception was high enough.

How would they feel?

Would it make a good story?

I can see a few ways that could make it better for certain groups or stories.

The easiest one is to allow the attacker to automatically win initiative.

Another is to give advantage on initiative or disadvantage to the one surprised.

My recommendation would be to play it based on the circumstances. A guard who expects assailants in the night is different than someone taking a stroll in a peaceful town even if they are both unaware of you.

I think being able to go 2 full turns of surprise is just too much though. The game isn't designed for that. Combats are already very short. I think it would be unfun for the players on either side.

[ad_hoc]

imagine a ranged attack

opponent is still and relaxed, rogue shoots an arrow, he gets adv on the roll because of that (i cant think of a way thats logical for you to lose that adv on a still opponent)

if you lose the initiative, the guy kinda notices the arrow and moves a bit, the arrow hits the arm instead of the heart, no critical, if you win the initiative, its a critical hit

that is logical and makes sense. however losing the advantage to someone who doesnt even know youre there is ridiculous

You still get advantage from attacking as an unseen attacker. You just don't get it from the assassinate power. This is on pgs. 194-195.

[Malifice]

You're surprised till you take your first turn in combat. You don't get a turn on the first round in your surprised.

Winning initiative isn't relevant on round 1 as you remain surprised till your turn on round 2.

The rogue gets advantage + Crits on round 1 regardless of initiative.

Come round 2 he only gets advantage (assuming his initiative is higher).

[jkat718]

You're surprised till you take your first turn in combat. You don't get a turn on the first round in your surprised.

Winning initiative isn't relevant on round 1 as you remain surprised till your turn on round 2.

The rogue gets advantage + Crits on round 1 regardless of initiative.

Come round 2 he only gets advantage (assuming his initiative is higher).

As ad_hoc and I parsed out above, the rule simply says that you can neither move nor take actions on your turn, rather than saying that you do not get a turn. Therefore, the turn still happens, ending surprise, but the creature cannot do anything.

[Malifice]

As ad_hoc and I parsed out above, the rule simply says that you can neither move nor take actions on your turn, rather than saying that you do not get a turn. Therefore, the turn still happens, ending surprise, but the creature cannot do anything.

I think that's a pretty narrow interpretation myself. RAI it seems that you get to autocrit with advantage on round 1 against a foe that is surprised that round. Surprise lasting till the start of round 2.

[ad_hoc]

I think that's a pretty narrow interpretation myself. RAI it seems that you get to autocrit with advantage on round 1 against a foe that is surprised that round. Surprise lasting till the start of round 2.

The language is actually very clear on this.

Surprise doesn't last until the end of the round, it lasts until the end of your turn.

"If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends."

So you can take a reaction during the first round, but only after your turn.

All of the effects of surprise end after your first turn, so why would you still be considered surprised?

Is anything in 5e keyed off of rounds? All I can remember are effects that care about the beginning and end of specific character's turns.

In any case, surprise certainly does. It does not mention the round at all. It is checked in step 1 of combat and then ends after your first turn. There is nothing in step 5 about ending surprise.