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Tenmujiin
2015-04-11, 10:57 AM
So this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?408418-Elan-race-converted-to-5-0-suggestions&p=19094768#post19094768) inspired me to make an Elan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#elans) race and psychic warrior subclass for the monk. This elan is specifically being designed to use Ki, there were other resources/lack of resources discussed in the original thread.

So first the Elan:




Elan Names

Elan keep the names they had as humans or take different human names.


Elan Traits

Ability Score Increase. Your Constitution score increases by 2, and your Intelligence score increases by 1

Age. Elan are created from humans and so are 'born' as adults. Elan carry a reservoir of psychic energy that prevents their bodies from aging. Elan who live for over 1000 years old are considered to be old.

Alignment. Elan tend towards Lawful alignments since they have a strong sense of community.

Size. Elan have the same physical charistics as humans though they tend to be tall rather than short with most being slightly less than 6 feet tall. Their size is medium.

Darkvision. Elan often make their homes underneath human cities and so they are given superior vision in dark and dim conditions as part of the conversion from humans. You can see in dim light within 60 ft of you as if it were bright light and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can't discern color in darkness, only shades of gray.

Naturally psionic. Elans' reservoir of psychic energy this gives them a pool of Ki like that of a monk's. You gain one Ki at first level and one additional Ki at levels 5, 11 and 17.

Unsure on the exact amount of Ki they should get but I think they should be getting more than one (since repletion costs 1 Ki) and need to start with at least one so that an elan without monk levels can use their racials so I tied it to cantrip scaling.

Repletion. Elans can gain sustenance from their psionic power. An Elan can spend 1 Ki to gain the effect of one day's food and water. If an Elan choses to do this they can also survive in extreme environments for 24 hours, this makes them immune to exhaustion from heat or cold.

Unsure on how to word repletion's extreme environment section. I don't want to make this always-on since I want elan to have a reason to eat and drink occasionally which is why I added the extreme environment section. It may be a little powerful now so perhaps

Resilience. You can spend one Ki as a reaction to taking damage. If they choose to do so they halve the damage taken by that attack.

This is basically just a translation of the 3.x ability into 5e terms. Two easy buffs would be either making it not cost a reaction or making it last until the start of the elan's next turn

Resistance. You can spend one Ki as a reaction to having to make a intelligence, wisdom or charisma saving throw against a magical effect to gain advantage on that saving throw.

Like Resilience this is just a translation to 5e terms. It works out as being strictly weaker than equivalent abilities on PBH races (such as gnome cunning which is the same thing with no cost) but I feel it needs a cost to match the feel of elan from 3.x

Conversion. Elans trained in magic can convert spell slots to Ki. Ki gained this way can only be used to power their racial abilities and not abilities from classes. You gain one Ki for every level of the spell slot converted. This can be done at any time and does not require an action. If the spell point variant for spellcasters is used, spell points can be used directly to fuel your racial abilities.

This ability has no precedent in the 3.x elan but the race needed something extra to bring them up to 5e standards and this seemed like a nice way to do it. The other reason for this ability is so that the closest thing we currently have to psionics, spellcasting, is compatible with elan abilities

Fluff sections coming soon.

Tenmujiin
2015-04-11, 10:58 AM
Psychic Warrior has been removed from this thread, I'll be giving it its own thread when it is ready for balancing.

1. Added darkvision and made repletion also allow the elan to survive comfortably in extreme environments (I don't want to make it always on so that elan have reason to eat and drink on occasion and also because the 3.x version had a cost). Also allowed Ki from conversion to be used for class abilities and added a clarifying statement to conversion to make it clear it uses no action.
2. Added a statement to conversion stating that spell points can be used directly, if that variant is used.

PotatoGolem
2015-04-11, 12:05 PM
This seems pretty underpowered to me. I'm not sure who would ever take this race. The bonus ki points towards monks, but the attribute bonuses are bad for monks- a tertiary stat and a dump stat. Bonus int points towards wizards, but a gnome is better for wizards in every way. Repletion will straight-up probably never be used; it's essentially an RP bonus unless your whole party can go without food or water, and it saves you a negligible amount of money on rations. Conversion is a waste of spell slots. The only actual bonus is a worse version of gnome cunning. Even if the psychic warrior is an Int-and-ki based gish, it seems like High Elf or gnome is better The idea is cool, but the race needs to be significantly stronger.

Off the top of my head, I'd make repletion always on, give them Darkvision, and remove the limit on using ki points from conversion on class abilities. Might cause issues with the psychic warrior depending on how that class works, but it would allow it to at least be useful for monk-gish builds, which would be a fun corner-case build.

ReturnOfTheKing
2015-04-11, 12:39 PM
Okay... I'm sure you meant something different, but now I'm imagining a whole race of :elan:.

Tenmujiin
2015-04-12, 01:07 AM
Okay... I'm sure you meant something different, but now I'm imagining a whole race of :elan:.

I thought the same thing when I first saw the race's name


This seems pretty underpowered to me. I'm not sure who would ever take this race. The bonus ki points towards monks, but the attribute bonuses are bad for monks- a tertiary stat and a dump stat. Bonus int points towards wizards, but a gnome is better for wizards in every way. Repletion will straight-up probably never be used; it's essentially an RP bonus unless your whole party can go without food or water, and it saves you a negligible amount of money on rations. Conversion is a waste of spell slots. The only actual bonus is a worse version of gnome cunning. Even if the psychic warrior is an Int-and-ki based gish, it seems like High Elf or gnome is better The idea is cool, but the race needs to be significantly stronger.

Off the top of my head, I'd make repletion always on, give them Darkvision, and remove the limit on using ki points from conversion on class abilities. Might cause issues with the psychic warrior depending on how that class works, but it would allow it to at least be useful for monk-gish builds, which would be a fun corner-case build.

I've had the same comments in the thread that inspired me to make this one. I was worried about the race being too strong and so erred on the side of making it weaker since it is easier to buff than to nerf. The other reason for it being weaker is because the first version didn't have Ki and so repletion and resistance were always-on and I didn't give any buffs to them when I gave them a cost, mostly because resilience was buffed from being a free blade-ward cantrip and i was worried about its power.

Edit: Apparently my reasoning got deleted from the post at some point, I'll add that back in soon.

Grek
2015-04-12, 06:15 AM
Have you considered making exhaustion levels themselves a resource? Something like:

Repletion: Elans can gain sustenance from their psionic power. If an Elan meditates during a short rest, she recovers from any levels of exhaustion she has gained regardless of if she has eaten or drank that day. This same meditation may be used to recover an Elan's Ki pool should she have one. Note that this ability renders the Elan effectively immune to starvation, dehydration and exposure - they may simply meditate to recover from the negative effects of these conditions.

Resilience: As a reaction to taking damage, an Elan may gain resistance to that source of damage for one round. Doing so inflicts one level of exhaustion.

Resistance: As a reaction to having to make a intelligence, wisdom or charisma saving throw against a magical effect, an Elan may gain advantage on their saving throw. Doing so inflicts one level of exhaustion.

weaseldust
2015-04-12, 11:04 AM
Is your intention that the racial Ki be freely convertible to the Ki you get from the Monk class? The wording of Conversion suggests that only the Ki gained from spell slots can't be used for Monk powers, so the other racial Ki can. I'd advise against that: depending on their level, an Elan would always have 20-50% more Ki than a Monk of another race, which is quite significant. E.g. for the sub-classes that cast spells using Ki it would be like an extra spell-slot or two per short rest. It would discourage would-be Monks from picking other races, even if the Elan doesn't boost Wisdom or Dexterity.

Perhaps this is a daft idea, but since Elans are made, not born, why not combine them with the Psychic Warrior sub-class? In other words, why not say 'well, you start off human (or, indeed, halfling, or dwarf, or whatever), but as your psychic powers develop you gain new abilities which are represented by your advancement in this monk tradition'? In particular, I like the idea that an elan gradually becomes more resistant to effects that target only humanoids, and then later changes its type to 'Aberration'.

Tenmujiin
2015-04-12, 09:08 PM
Have you considered making exhaustion levels themselves a resource? Something like:

Repletion: Elans can gain sustenance from their psionic power. If an Elan meditates during a short rest, she recovers from any levels of exhaustion she has gained regardless of if she has eaten or drank that day. This same meditation may be used to recover an Elan's Ki pool should she have one. Note that this ability renders the Elan effectively immune to starvation, dehydration and exposure - they may simply meditate to recover from the negative effects of these conditions.

Resilience: As a reaction to taking damage, an Elan may gain resistance to that source of damage for one round. Doing so inflicts one level of exhaustion.

Resistance: As a reaction to having to make a intelligence, wisdom or charisma saving throw against a magical effect, an Elan may gain advantage on their saving throw. Doing so inflicts one level of exhaustion.

That would be a neat way of implementing the cost but I feel like exhaustion would be too high a cost. Also this is specifically meant to be an elan with Ki, other versions of elan are explored in the thread I linked in the OP. I'll edit the main post to clarify.


Is your intention that the racial Ki be freely convertible to the Ki you get from the Monk class? The wording of Conversion suggests that only the Ki gained from spell slots can't be used for Monk powers, so the other racial Ki can. I'd advise against that: depending on their level, an Elan would always have 20-50% more Ki than a Monk of another race, which is quite significant. E.g. for the sub-classes that cast spells using Ki it would be like an extra spell-slot or two per short rest. It would discourage would-be Monks from picking other races, even if the Elan doesn't boost Wisdom or Dexterity.

The Ki from conversion can only be used to power the racials currently, its just meant to be a way to allow non-monk elans (especially wizards re-fluffed to psions). It has been suggested that the restriction be removed as the race is somewhat weak but I am still debating it since elan already make such strong monks. I realise that the bonus Ki makes them strong monks but I have tried to make the other bonuses of the race, especially the stat bonuses, nonoptimal for monks. I may swap the bonuses (so +2 int, +1 con) to weaken elan monks somewhat. Monk is meant to be the ideal class for them though, along with wizard.


Perhaps this is a daft idea, but since Elans are made, not born, why not combine them with the Psychic Warrior sub-class? In other words, why not say 'well, you start off human (or, indeed, halfling, or dwarf, or whatever), but as your psychic powers develop you gain new abilities which are represented by your advancement in this monk tradition'? In particular, I like the idea that an elan gradually becomes more resistant to effects that target only humanoids, and then later changes its type to 'Aberration'.

Its a cool idea but I am trying to match the feel of the 3.x class (and race) and so would like to keep them separate.

weaseldust
2015-04-12, 09:36 PM
Monk is meant to be the ideal class for them though, along with wizard.

I suppose what I was uncomfortable with was that, not only is Monk the ideal class for the Elan, but the Elan is the ideal race for the Monk. But it might be that that's part of what makes up your concept of the Elan, in which case extra Ki is a pretty good mechanism for them. Be aware, though, that an Elan Monk is actually less likely to use Ki on Resistance and so on, because they have other things to spend Ki on (and they have good defences anyway).

Tenmujiin
2015-04-12, 11:33 PM
I suppose what I was uncomfortable with was that, not only is Monk the ideal class for the Elan, but the Elan is the ideal race for the Monk. But it might be that that's part of what makes up your concept of the Elan, in which case extra Ki is a pretty good mechanism for them. Be aware, though, that an Elan Monk is actually less likely to use Ki on Resistance and so on, because they have other things to spend Ki on (and they have good defences anyway).

I am concerned that elans make too good a monk but the main things that I'm trying to do with them is to capture the flavor of the 3.5 race and to use Ki to do it. I think I'll drop the amount of Ki they get but front load it slightly more (still over a few levels so Elan monks aren't at moon druid levels of broken early game) and then buff up their racials so they are more competitive with other uses of Ki.

Amnoriath
2015-04-13, 09:33 AM
So this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?408418-Elan-race-converted-to-5-0-suggestions&p=19094768#post19094768) inspired me to make an Elan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#elans) race and psychic warrior subclass for the monk. This elan is specifically being designed to use Ki, there were other resources/lack of resources discussed in the original thread.

So first the Elan:




Elan Names

Elan keep the names they had as humans or take different human names.


Elan Traits

Ability Score Increase. Your Constitution score increases by 2, and your Intelligence score increases by 1

Age. Elan are created from humans and so are 'born' as adults. Elan carry a reservoir of psychic energy that prevents their bodies from aging. Elan who live for over 1000 years old are considered to be old.

Alignment. Elan tend towards Lawful alignments since they have a strong sense of community.

Size. Elan have the same physical charistics as humans though they tend to be tall rather than short with most being slightly less than 6 feet tall. Their size is medium.

Darkvision. Elan often make their homes underneath human cities and so they are given superior vision in dark and dim conditions as part of the conversion from humans. You can see in dim light within 60 ft of you as if it were bright light and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can't discern color in darkness, only shades of gray.

Naturally psionic. Elans' reservoir of psychic energy this gives them a pool of Ki like that of a monk's. You gain one Ki at first level and one additional Ki at levels 5, 11 and 17.

Unsure on the exact amount of Ki they should get but I think they should be getting more than one (since repletion costs 1 Ki) and need to start with at least one so that an elan without monk levels can use their racials so I tied it to cantrip scaling.

Repletion. Elans can gain sustenance from their psionic power. An Elan can spend 1 Ki to gain the effect of one day's food and water. If an Elan choses to do this they can also survive in extreme environments for 24 hours, this makes them immune to exhaustion from heat or cold.

Unsure on how to word repletion's extreme environment section. I don't want to make this always-on since I want elan to have a reason to eat and drink occasionally which is why I added the extreme environment section. It may be a little powerful now so perhaps

Resilience. You can spend one Ki as a reaction to taking damage. If they choose to do so they halve the damage taken by that attack.

This is basically just a translation of the 3.x ability into 5e terms. Two easy buffs would be either making it not cost a reaction or making it last until the start of the elan's next turn

Resistance. You can spend one Ki as a reaction to having to make a intelligence, wisdom or charisma saving throw against a magical effect to gain advantage on that saving throw.

Like Resilience this is just a translation to 5e terms. It works out as being strictly weaker than equivalent abilities on PBH races (such as gnome cunning which is the same thing with no cost) but I feel it needs a cost to match the feel of elan from 3.x

Conversion. Elans trained in magic can convert spell slots to Ki. Ki gained this way can only be used to power their racial abilities and not abilities from classes. You gain one Ki for every level of the spell slot converted. This can be done at any time and does not require an action. If the spell point variant for spellcasters is used, spell points can be used directly to fuel your racial abilities.

This ability has no precedent in the 3.x elan but the race needed something extra to bring them up to 5e standards and this seemed like a nice way to do it. The other reason for this ability is so that the closest thing we currently have to psionics, spellcasting, is compatible with elan abilities


1. Added darkvision and made repletion also allow the elan to survive comfortably in extreme environments (I don't want to make it always on so that elan have reason to eat and drink on occasion and also because the 3.x version had a cost). Also allowed Ki from conversion to be used for class abilities and added a clarifying statement to conversion to make it clear it uses no action.
2. Added a statement to conversion stating that spell points can be used directly, if that variant is used.


Fluff sections and additional reasoning spoilers coming soon.

This race as is overpowered. While the ki abilities and conversion is specific resilience is way too much. Essentially you are giving them a better Uncanny Dodge. Yes it is limited but it won't take long to get enough ki points to sustain it. While it is the only real thing it has without class synergy it just makes it that awkward to use kind of like a Necrocarnum Harvest and Heart of Essentia.

Tenmujiin
2015-04-13, 10:19 AM
This race as is overpowered. While the ki abilities and conversion is specific resilience is way too much. Essentially you are giving them a better Uncanny Dodge. Yes it is limited but it won't take long to get enough ki points to sustain it. While it is the only real thing it has without class synergy it just makes it that awkward to use kind of like a Necrocarnum Harvest and Heart of Essentia.

It is also limited by their reaction so they can use it at most once per round. For 5 Ki 4 elements monks get access to stoneskin for resist to B/P/S so if they get hit 5 times while it is up they are better off using that than resistance. Rather than just saying the race is overpowered I would appreciate feedback on how to make the race balanced.:frown:

Edit 3: looking at uncanny dodge, this is a strictly WORSE version as it does the same thing but costs Ki. An elan monk could use the ability 24 times per short rest at 20th level assuming they never use any other abilities. A more realistic example (since most games don't go to twenty and casters are going to outclass almost anyone at that point anyway) is at 14th level they can use it 17 times, assuming no other ability use. Compare to other uses of Ki such as stunning strike and patient defense. Compare to other uses of a monk's reaction such as deflect missiles and a simple opportunity attack (possibly followed with a stunning strike). Compare with an equivelent 1st level spell, shield. Shield gives +5 AC for the WHOLE ROUND while this only triggers on one attack.

Amnoriath
2015-04-13, 02:36 PM
It is also limited by their reaction so they can use it at most once per round. For 5 Ki 4 elements monks get access to stoneskin for resist to B/P/S so if they get hit 5 times while it is up they are better off using that than resistance. Rather than just saying the race is overpowered I would appreciate feedback on how to make the race balanced.:frown:

Edit 3: looking at uncanny dodge, this is a strictly WORSE version as it does the same thing but costs Ki. An elan monk could use the ability 24 times per short rest at 20th level assuming they never use any other abilities. A more realistic example (since most games don't go to twenty and casters are going to outclass almost anyone at that point anyway) is at 14th level they can use it 17 times, assuming no other ability use. Compare to other uses of Ki such as stunning strike and patient defense. Compare to other uses of a monk's reaction such as deflect missiles and a simple opportunity attack (possibly followed with a stunning strike). Compare with an equivelent 1st level spell, shield. Shield gives +5 AC for the WHOLE ROUND while this only triggers on one attack.

Stoneskin is worse than Rage as not only is just the same kind of damages that it protects but it is also bypassed by magic weapons. This ability is better than Uncanny Dodge because it triggers against anything while the other is only against attacks. Of course this depends on whether or not the sentence explaining the trigger overrides the next sentence and the word attack is just a figure of speech. Either way it needs a little cleaning up. However let me put this into perspective on just how much this ability means. Currently the most hardy choice is a Hill Dwarf giving you an effective +2 hit points per level. This though can protect you from more damage than the Hill Dwarf. can accumulate and only becomes exponential as it gains ki.
In most cases 5e races look very different from their 3.X counterparts so you may want to consider delving more into Aberrations for more material. Though you could simply change the Resilience into more of a bonus action temporary hit point boost.

Tenmujiin
2015-04-13, 10:16 PM
snip

I'm not tryi g to duplicate the 3.x race, just its feel. Since I also have the goal of using Ki to do it this means they need 4 things.

1. Bonus ki
2. Don't need to eat or drink, preferably at the cost of ki
3. Can reduce damage taken at the cost of ki, after a hit lands
4. Can gain a bonus on a save at the cost of ki

As long as those things exist on the race in a form that fits 5e and keeps the general feel of the race (and isn't overpowered) I'll be happy. The fact they were abberations in 3.x never seemed that important to me and since all races in 5e are humanoids it seems best to drop it.

Edit: looking at the closest race we have so far, the goliath, they get to reduce an attack by 1d10+con once per short rest, they also get similar but much better for non-wizard stat bonuses and a few other smaller abilities as well as athletics proficiency.

So taking 1d10+con per short rest as our baseline

Elan get 1 use of this ability at 1st level, maxing for non-monks at 4 at 17th. Balancing for monks it needs to be slightly weaker that similar options.

So throwing a number out to see if it sticks, how is 1d6 per ki spent with a max of 1/2 damage taken as a reaction. This means that the elan will reduce on average 4.5 damage per ki and at most 1/2 the damage taken on a single attack per round. A similar ability on the monk is dodge as a bonus action, costs them 1 ki and their bonus action rather than reaction to give disadvantage to any attackers for the whole round.

At its most powerful (for a non-monk) we are looking at 14 average damage max 1/2 damage taken as opposed to 10.5 (goliath with 20 con). At its weakest we are looking at 3.5 average max 1/2 taken as opposed to 4.5 (goliath with 9 con)

Edit: an elan monk 20 could dump his entire ki pool, giving up any abilities he has to reduce the damage of an attack by 84 but still maxed at 1/2 the damage taken i'll also add a clause saying it is before damage is rolled but after you know damage is about to happen.

Amnoriath
2015-04-14, 06:11 AM
Creatures are going to deal more than 28 damage against you especially if it includes AoE's. This also can be done 4 times vs. once for the Goliath which still has less overall stamina than the Hill Dwarf even if he gets the health boost.

Tenmujiin
2015-04-15, 04:43 AM
Creatures are going to deal more than 28 damage against you especially if it includes AoE's. This also can be done 4 times vs. once for the Goliath which still has less overall stamina than the Hill Dwarf even if he gets the health boost.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

Goliaths also get Athletics proficiency, a more predictable reduction in damage (min 6 max 15) as opposed to min 4 max 24 or 1/2 damage taken, powerful build and mountain born. The last two are mostly fluff but are still always on as opposed to the elan's repletion which reduces the power of resilience and resistance which is also somewhat weak.

Edit: oh and that is only at max level, the goliath is just better from 1-16

Comparing resilience to the dwarf:

Level 1: 1 vs 3.5
Level 5: 5 vs 7
Level 11: 11 vs 10.5
level 17: 17 vs 14

So the dwarf is slightly less hardy at low levels and slightly more hardy at high levels. This assumes that the elan choses to basically only have one racial and so if they use repletion or resistance the dwarf pulls ahead. Dwarves also get darkvision, poison resistance, free weapon proficiencies, a free tool proficiency, stonecunning and the ability for low strength dwarves to wear heavy armor at the cost of 5 movement speed.

Edit: I realise the elan gets stronger if they are a monk or caster but then their abilities come at the opportunity cost of a spell or ki ability which is generally going to be an unfavorable trade, compare 1d6 damage to any 1st level damage spell say magic missile. Magic missile does 3.5 average damage, the same as resilience blocks and shield is a direct competitor against resilience for the user's reaction and gives +5 AC against every attack that round. Higher level spells are even more efficient per would-be-ki and so are almost never going to be the right move to convert.

Amnoriath
2015-04-15, 08:38 AM
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

Goliaths also get Athletics proficiency, a more predictable reduction in damage (min 6 max 15) as opposed to min 4 max 24 or 1/2 damage taken, powerful build and mountain born. The last two are mostly fluff but are still always on as opposed to the elan's repletion which reduces the power of resilience and resistance which is also somewhat weak.

Edit: oh and that is only at max level, the goliath is just better from 1-16

Comparing resilience to the dwarf:

Level 1: 1 vs 3.5
Level 5: 5 vs 7
Level 11: 11 vs 10.5
level 17: 17 vs 14

So the dwarf is slightly less hardy at low levels and slightly more hardy at high levels. This assumes that the elan choses to basically only have one racial and so if they use repletion or resistance the dwarf pulls ahead. Dwarves also get darkvision, poison resistance, free weapon proficiencies, a free tool proficiency, stonecunning and the ability for low strength dwarves to wear heavy armor at the cost of 5 movement speed.

Edit: I realise the elan gets stronger if they are a monk or caster but then their abilities come at the opportunity cost of a spell or ki ability which is generally going to be an unfavorable trade, compare 1d6 damage to any 1st level damage spell say magic missile. Magic missile does 3.5 average damage, the same as resilience blocks and shield is a direct competitor against resilience for the user's reaction and gives +5 AC against every attack that round. Higher level spells are even more efficient per would-be-ki and so are almost never going to be the right move to convert.
At what point do you think that all that reaction can do is reduce 14 damage(Hence why do you believe an effect will only deal 28 damage)? Look at your creature's various AoE's, additional damage boosts..etc at what point do you think this is random when you would use it? You know how much you take when you take damage. Besides you want to talk about how Shield is so much better the problem though is that there is only 1 class that can spam it and they don't get effective AC without a certain race and a feat as well as a high level. Also while a +5 is great it isn't all that much of a guarantee in the long run. The problem here isn't so much that it is really broken it is that it begs the use of a certain class too much.

Tenmujiin
2015-04-15, 11:48 AM
First, I didn't notice when I wrote my last post but:


Creatures are going to deal more than 28 damage against you especially if it includes AoE's. This also can be done 4 times vs. once for the Goliath which still has less overall stamina than the Hill Dwarf even if he gets the health boost.

Emphasis mine. They can reduce 3.5 damage 4 times at level 17 not 14 damage 4 times at level 1.

Second:

At what point do you think that all that reaction can do is reduce 14 damage(Hence why do you believe an effect will only deal 28 damage)?
It is 14 AVERAGE damage since that is much faster to type than the min and max and is much more useful for calculating balance. I am not including the max 1/2 damage taken in any of my calculations (it would be basically impossible since attacks vary so much) and so am just listing it for completeness.


Look at your creature's various AoE's, additional damage boosts..etc at what point do you think this is random when you would use it?
What do you mean my creatures various AoEs? Are you assuming the player has acces to their attackers stat block? By random I assume you are talking about when I said golilath is more predictable? What I meant by that is there is less variation in the amount of damage that is reduced in a given use of the ability.


You know how much you take when you take damage.
Did you not read where I said the ability is going to have a clause stating the reaction is in response to an attack landing/save being failed and so is before damage is rolled?


Besides you want to talk about how Shield is so much better the problem though is that there is only 1 class that can spam it and they don't get effective AC without a certain race and a feat as well as a high level.
Elan have to spend the equivelent of a level one spell slot to activate resilience (per d6 of reduction) with this version of the ability.


Also while a +5 is great it isn't all that much of a guarantee in the long run.
You use shield after you see the attack roll, yes it is a garentee and it also then applies to any further attacks made aginst you. You don't spend the resource if the attack would have missed anyway.


The problem here isn't so much that it is really broken it is that it begs the use of a certain class too much.
So your problem isn't resilience it is conversion?

Just to make sure you realise, I haven't updated the OP yet because I am still trying to work out what a balanced version of the ability is.

Lastly, rather than just saying 'its broken, its broken' could you please suggest something you would consider not broken?

Amnoriath
2015-04-15, 02:50 PM
First, I didn't notice when I wrote my last post but:



Emphasis mine. They can reduce 3.5 damage 4 times at level 17 not 14 damage 4 times at level 1.

Second:

It is 14 AVERAGE damage since that is much faster to type than the min and max and is much more useful for calculating balance. I am not including the max 1/2 damage taken in any of my calculations (it would be basically impossible since attacks vary so much) and so am just listing it for completeness.


What do you mean my creatures various AoEs? Are you assuming the player has acces to their attackers stat block? By random I assume you are talking about when I said golilath is more predictable? What I meant by that is there is less variation in the amount of damage that is reduced in a given use of the ability.


Did you not read where I said the ability is going to have a clause stating the reaction is in response to an attack landing/save being failed and so is before damage is rolled?


Elan have to spend the equivelent of a level one spell slot to activate resilience (per d6 of reduction) with this version of the ability.


You use shield after you see the attack roll, yes it is a garentee and it also then applies to any further attacks made aginst you. You don't spend the resource if the attack would have missed anyway.


So your problem isn't resilience it is conversion?

Just to make sure you realise, I haven't updated the OP yet because I am still trying to work out what a balanced version of the ability is.

Lastly, rather than just saying 'its broken, its broken' could you please suggest something you would consider not broken?
1. This "completeness" you talk about is then misleading as you put up a halved figure which is based upon an average of your potential enemies and isn't taking into full account of the new creatures damage potential.
2. What makes you think that you need to know the stat block on whether to use it when you take damage from an AoE? No, a Goliath is more random because you know what you take in damage.
3. You have never said that here.
4. Do you know the creature's stats to know that is in fact the case? I think that is far more relevant here. The argument of equivalency is only valid if you could use ki to make spell slots but you can't.
5. I have, "In most cases 5e races look very different from their 3.X counterparts so you may want to consider delving more into Aberrations for more material. Though you could simply change the Resilience into more of a bonus action temporary hit point boost."

Tenmujiin
2015-04-16, 02:20 AM
1. This "completeness" you talk about is then misleading as you put up a halved figure which is based upon an average of your potential enemies and isn't taking into full account of the new creatures damage potential.
What? I'm posting the average that the elan would block and then stating that if the attack hit for less than double the amount rolled then the ability will be weakened. The ability will be triggered after the attack roll/failed save but before the damage roll.


2. What makes you think that you need to know the stat block on whether to use it when you take damage from an AoE? No, a Goliath is more random because you know what you take in damage.

As above



3. You have never said that here.
Yes I did

Edit: an elan monk 20 could dump his entire ki pool, giving up any abilities he has to reduce the damage of an attack by 84 but still maxed at 1/2 the damage taken i'll also add a clause saying it is before damage is rolled but after you know damage is about to happen.


4. Do you know the creature's stats to know that is in fact the case? I think that is far more relevant here.


The argument of equivalency is only valid if you could use ki to make spell slots but you can't.
Ki and spell slots are treated as equivalent, monk abilities that duplicate spells cost 1 ki for a level 1 spell, 2 ki for a level 2 spell, etc.


5. I have, "In most cases 5e races look very different from their 3.X counterparts so you may want to consider delving more into Aberrations for more material.
And I replied that I am not trying to make an aberration race, I am trying to make an elan race, the first thing I would throw out from the 3.x elan is the fact they are aberrations.


Though you could simply change the Resilience into more of a bonus action temporary hit point boost."
I admit I missed this part. What about it being a bonus action to essentially reduce the next attack against you by x better/more balanced than a reaction, reduce the current attack against you by x? (I use x as the numbers are free to change as needed to balance the race)