Warlock Tricks

[Bad Wolf]

Any optimization tricks I can pull with Warlock, besides Imbue Item and pumping UMD to get scrolls of ninth-level spells? Planning to go Warlock 12/Hellfire Warlock 3/Warlock 5.

[Blackhawk748]

Any optimization tricks I can pull with Warlock, besides Imbue Item and pumping UMD to get scrolls of ninth-level spells? Planning to go Warlock 12/Hellfire Warlock 3/Warlock 5.

Grab a level of Binder and Imp Binding? (the one that lets you bind Vestiges 2 levels higher than normal) and get Naberius. He'll heal that Con Damage your gonna be eating. Also its a very fluffy combo.

[AmberVael]

How optimized do you want, and what do you want to optimize?

A way to deal with the constitution damage from Hellfire would be a pretty obvious start. Personally I like picking up Shape Soulmeld and getting Strongheart Vest to take care of it, though the other popular method is a single level dip into Binder so you can bind Naberius.

If you want to optimize eldritch blast damage, you could do shenanigans with legacy champion and/or bloodlines to increase your effective hellfire warlock levels, rapidly increasing the damage from your hellfire blasts.

If you want to go the item crafting route, a popular thing to do is to enter the Chameleon PrC, which gives you a feat that you can change every day. You can use this to pick up different item creation feats, allowing you to create basically any item you want.

Depending on whether your DM allows it, you could potentially use Supernatural Transformation to make your eldritch blast into a Supernatural ability rather than a spell-like, which can be helpful.

[Chronos]

Note that you don't actually need Improved Binding, since Naberius is a first-level vestige. Ordinarily, it's a great feat for a binder anyway, except that with only a one-level dip, you'll only get one vestige, and you'd almost always want to use that for Naberius anyway.

The Strongheart Vest method is of dubious legality. Hellfire Blast doesn't work if you're immune to the Con damage it causes, and having that damage always be reduced to 0 can be interpreted as immunity to it. You could still take Con damage from some source that causes more than one point at a time, but Hellfire Blast isn't such a source. But of course, ask your DM, as interpretations do vary on this.

[Blackhawk748]

Note that you don't actually need Improved Binding, since Naberius is a first-level vestige. Ordinarily, it's a great feat for a binder anyway, except that with only a one-level dip, you'll only get one vestige, and you'd almost always want to use that for Naberius anyway.

Whoops, musta been thinking of another trick. The the Binder route is still the best IMO because it is not of dubious legality.

[Snowbluff]

Grab a level of Binder and Imp Binding? (the one that lets you bind Vestiges 2 levels higher than normal) and get Naberius. He'll heal that Con Damage your gonna be eating. Also its a very fluffy combo.

You don't even need a binder level. Dip into Anima Mage, or meld a Strongheart vest.

Strongheart Vest? Why do you say that, Snowbluff? Because everyone who thinks it doesn't work, is factually wrong.

[Troacctid]

Replace the last 5 Warlock levels with Paragnostic Apostle, maybe. Warlock class features are junk after 12th level, so there's no harm in taking a full-casting prestige class that you're already automatically qualified for. You lose some HP and BAB, but at 16th level, unless you're a glaivelock, you really don't care about either of those things in the slightest.

I'm not usually a fan of the Binder dip unless it's leading into an Ur-Priest/Eldritch Theurge build that's already forced to dip for the base Fort save, or an Anima Mage build where it's the whole focus. It's a lot less effort to just take Shape Soulmeld if your DM allows it, and if they don't allow it, just heal up with wands of lesser restoration--they're not very expensive, and spending a little bit of gp is usually preferable to spending class levels.

You could try taking bloodline levels if you want to get some extra punch out of the hellfire. Hellfire Warlock gives you 2d6 hellfire damage per class level, and bloodline levels count as class levels in calculations like that, so you could potentially get an extra 6d6 hellfire damage with a major bloodline. The main issue, of course, is that bloodlines are highly dysfunctional rules-wise, so talk to your DM about how they work; depending on the ruling, it may or may not be worth it.

A good trick on a UMD-focused Warlock is to get a familiar. Familiars share your UMD ranks, so they can use wands. Give them some wands to play with and you've doubled your actions in combat.

[Bad Wolf]

I was planning on getting a Wand of Lesser Restoration and having a familiar hold it. Cheaper, and I get one more level of Warlock.

[Socratov]

You don't even need a binder level. Dip into Anima Mage, or meld a Strongheart vest.

Strongheart Vest? Why do you say that, Snowbluff? Because everyone who thinks it doesn't work, is factually wrong.

not according to the FAQ. And it's best to level with your GM anyway about such matters.

[Brova]

Well, instead of pumping Abuse Magic Device to use high level scrolls, you could use it to do other things. The obvious choice is a staff of body outside body to quadruple your damage output. That's pretty sweet. It doesn't last very long though, so you might want to look into somehow getting it persisted (can Warlock qualify for Incantatrix?). You could also do something even more abusive, like using a candle of invocation to cast as a Cleric.

[Snowbluff]

not according to the FAQ. And it's best to level with your GM anyway about such matters.

FAQ.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

I can't breath...

HAHAHAHAH!

Do you think the FAQ people read the ability? It's clear that they did not. Do you think the FAQ is RAW? It's clear that is not.

GMThis isn't laughter. Just apply some logic here.

"Oh man, this T4 is doing decent damage. I can't handle this. Obviously the way to curb this is a point of Con damage." :smalltongue:

[Grod_The_Giant]

The actual, RAW legality of Strongheart Vest isn't really relevant. The real question is whether or not the DM will allow it. And in my experience, combos that depend on extremely close reading of RAW don't tend to fly, especially when they contradict fairly clear intent.

Besides, a level of Binder is nice, especially if you go Anima Mage. (Though you might need Magical Training+Precocious Apprentice to qualify, unless your GM is feeling nice). Even if you only ever bind Naberius, he still gives you a ton of useful stuff for a social Warlock- Disguise Self at will, taking 10 on Bluff and Diplomacy checks, and the ability to use a bunch of skills untrained.

[Snowbluff]

The actual, RAW legality of Strongheart Vest isn't really relevant. The real question is whether or not the DM will allow it. And in my experience, combos that depend on extremely close reading of RAW don't tend to fly, especially when they contradict fairly clear intent. If they intended to damage the warlock, they shouldn't have specified immunity and they should have put a note about Naberius, too. Not to mention that RAW is really the only thing we have to go on, and the "Strongheart Vest Doesn't Work" sham needs to stop.

If the DM says no, he's already hostile anyway. This would be the least of your problems.



Besides, a level of Binder is nice, especially if you go Anima Mage. (Though you might need Magical Training+Precocious Apprentice to qualify, unless your GM is feeling nice). Even if you only ever bind Naberius, he still gives you a ton of useful stuff for a social Warlock- Disguise Self at will, taking 10 on Bluff and Diplomacy checks, and the ability to use a bunch of skills untrained. If you're needing Precocious Apprentice (you have schools as a warlock, and not having one would require you to ban it, so you don't need the training), you should just go ahead and skip the binder level, too. :smalltongue:

[Blackhawk748]

If they intended to damage the warlock, they shouldn't have specified immunity and they should have put a note about Naberius, too. Not to mention that RAW is really the only thing we have to go on, and the "Strongheart Vest Doesn't Work" sham needs to stop.

If the DM says no, he's already hostile anyway. This would be the least of your problems.

Ya i see no problem with Strongheart Vest either as it isnt immunity, its just reducing it by 1, it just happens to reduce to 0. Honestly Naberius winds up almost doing the same thing its just he does it at the beginning of your next turn instead of immediately. This is how i rule it as a DM.

Personally i take Naberius because i like the other toys it gets me and the rapid damage healing is great as it applies to all Damage as well as Drain. Yes i can just get a wand of Restoration and do the same thing but its passive and always on for me which has its own benefits.

[Snowbluff]

Naberius is nice because it works on other things, too. However, I prefer the binderless anima mage.

[Blackhawk748]

Naberius is nice because it works on other things, too. However, I prefer the binderless anima mage.

How do you do that exactly? Take the feat Bind Vestige?

[Grod_The_Giant]

If they intended to damage the warlock, they shouldn't have specified immunity and they should have put a note about Naberius, too. Not to mention that RAW is really the only thing we have to go on, and the "Strongheart Vest Doesn't Work" sham needs to stop.
For what it's worth, I agree with you that, by RAW, damage resistance isn't the same thing as immunity, and that the soulmeld doesn't legally prevent you from using the ability. However,


Each time you use this ability, you take 1 point of Constitution damage. Because the diabolical forces behind the power of hellfire demand part of your essence in exchange for this granted power, if you do not have a Constitution score or are somehow immune to Constitution damage, you cannot use this ability.
I think the intent is fairly clear, given that they, you know, spelled it out. Powering the ability requires giving up your own vitality. With the vest, you aren't losing anything. With Naberius, you are, even if it comes back next round.

So, again, it's a question of RAW verses RAI. Ask your DM before showing up, a "no" is at least as likely as a "yes."

[Chronos]

By RAW, the strongheart vest doesn't work, and anyone who says it does needs to just stop, because they're wrong.

See that? The other side can use that argument, too. But it works a lot better when you back it up with actual evidence and reasoning, instead of just asserting it. Like this:

When you have Strongheart Vest bound, it is impossible for you to take Con damage from using Hellfire. Therefore, you are immune to the damage caused by Hellfire. You are not immune to all Con damage, but the Hellfire description doesn't care about that: It just says "If you are immune to this damage", and you are immune to that damage.

[Snowbluff]

I speak with authority because I am an authority. You're argument is wrong because it specifics "immunity to con damage," not "immunity to this damage."

if you do not have a Constitution score or are somehow immune to Constitution damage, you cannot use this ability.


How do you do that exactly? Take the feat Bind Vestige?
With the Improved version. Then you lose those feats (you don't qualify, so retrain them), so you have to take the one that lets you bind at level +2. :smalltongue:




I think the intent is fairly clear, given that they, you know, spelled it out. Powering the ability requires giving up your own vitality. With the vest, you aren't losing anything. With Naberius, you are, even if it comes back next round.

So, again, it's a question of RAW verses RAI. Ask your DM before showing up, a "no" is at least as likely as a "yes."

The vest is made out of your soul, dude. It doesn't get more essency than that.

[Blackhawk748]

With the Improved version. Then you lose those feats (you don't qualify, so retrain them), so you have to take the one that lets you bind at level +2. :smalltongue:

How does that qualify you for Anima Mage??

[Snowbluff]

How does that qualify you for Anima Mage??



Special: Ability to bind a 2nd-level vestige

Thus, you have access to vestiges up to 3rd level, though you still can bind only one at a time and gain only one power from it.

Like that. You have the feat, which let's you bind vestiges.

[Blackhawk748]

Like that. You have the feat, which let's you bind vestiges.

Then you ditch the feats after your in, now i get.

[AmberVael]

When you have Strongheart Vest bound, it is impossible for you to take Con damage from using Hellfire. Therefore, you are immune to the damage caused by Hellfire. You are not immune to all Con damage, but the Hellfire description doesn't care about that: It just says "If you are immune to this damage", and you are immune to that damage.

Being resistant and being immune are not the same thing, regardless of whether or not a specific instance could harm you. Having fire resistance 10 means you can stick your face in a torch every time and be fine, but you're not immune to fire. Also, it doesn't even specify immunity to the con damage from hellfire anyway, it does just say immune to constitution damage.

Because the diabolical forces behind the power of hellfire demand part of your essence in exchange for this granted power, if you do not have a constitution score or are somehow immune to Constitution damage, you cannot use this ability.
Strongheart Vest does not make you immune to constitution damage, and you still have a constitution score. Therefore, you can use hellfire if you have strongheart vest shaped.


Its rational to say "that seems to defy intent" or "I don't like it," but thats a much different argument than "its not RAW."

[Snowbluff]

Then you ditch the feats after your in, now i get.

Yes, because having a level in Anima Mage gives soulbinding, so you don't actually qualify. Then you have to take Improved Binding (not to be confused to Improved Bind Vestige) to qualify again. XD

[Blackhawk748]

Yes, because having a level in Anima Mage gives soulbinding, so you don't actually qualify. Then you have to take Improved Binding (not to be confused to Improved Bind Vestige) to qualify again. XD

Ah the joys of circumventing entry requirements with retraining. :smalltongue:

[Bad Wolf]

What's the best familiar for a warlock?

[Blackhawk748]

What's the best familiar for a warlock?

Personal preference mostly, Bats are sweet for the blindsense and Ravens for cracking jokes and for easily holding wands.

[Troacctid]

What's the best familiar for a warlock?

I think the best standard familiar is the bat. It has blindsense, which is like an extra lesser invocation! And it's the only one with good maneuverability on its fly speed.

Ravens and parrots have the additional utility of being able to speak, which can come in handy in some situations.

Weasels and rats are both okay too. They can't fly, but they can climb, and the bonus to saves is very helpful, and they have scent, which is like an extra least invocation. Just don't expect them to be maneuvering around very much.

Snakes aren't the worst if you want the +3 Bluff. Again, they can climb (and swim), and they have scent.

If you want a familiar that's fast, the best is the arctic gyrfalcon from Frostburn. Having a high speed is useful if you use the Floating Disk trick. (Give your familiar a talisman of the disk, ride on the disk, and have it chauffeur you around; the disk will follow it at its speed instead of yours.) However, if you're not staying close to the ground and landing at the end of every turn, I'd prefer the good maneuverability of the bat for the ability to ascend more quickly, hover, and turn around in midair.

[Bad Wolf]

I think the best standard familiar is the bat. It has blindsense, which is like an extra lesser invocation! And it's the only one with good maneuverability on its fly speed.

Ravens and parrots have the additional utility of being able to speak, which can come in handy in some situations.

Weasels and rats are both okay too. They can't fly, but they can climb, and the bonus to saves is very helpful, and they have scent, which is like an extra least invocation. Just don't expect them to be maneuvering around very much.

Snakes aren't the worst if you want the +3 Bluff. Again, they can climb (and swim), and they have scent.

If you want a familiar that's fast, the best is the arctic gyrfalcon from Frostburn. Having a high speed is useful if you use the Floating Disk trick. (Give your familiar a talisman of the disk, ride on the disk, and have it chauffeur you around; the disk will follow it at its speed instead of yours.) However, if you're not staying close to the ground and landing at the end of every turn, I'd prefer the good maneuverability of the bat for the ability to ascend more quickly, hover, and turn around in midair.

Nice, thanks for the advice.

I'm also planning on taking Improved Familiar, so that might change things.

[Troacctid]

The best all-around Core option for an Improved Familiar is the imp. It has good stats, perfect flight, and powerful spell-like/supernatural abilities. Invisibility and detect good at will, suggestion once per day, commune once per week, and the ability to take monstrous spider form and shoot webs at people. All very useful.

Quasits are pretty much the same as imps, except they have cause fear instead of suggestion and they turn into a monstrous centipede instead of a monstrous spider. Both of those are downgrades, so the imp is generally better, but not by a wide margin.

Moving outside Core, lantern archons, available with Planar Familiar, have greater teleport at will, which is amazing even though it's self-only. They can pop away to any other location in the world, pick up your groceries for you, and pop back, all in the span of about 12 seconds. They're also constantly surrounded by a magic circle against evil, so you get +2 to AC and saves and are immune to mental control as long as they're near you, which is nice. They can speak and understand any language, which is a big help if you are the party face, since they share your Diplomacy, Bluff, and Sense Motive ranks. And they're even useful in combat, both offensively and defensively--their aid spell-like ability allows them to give you a morale bonus to attack rolls and a constant drip of temporary hit points, and their light ray attack may not do much damage, but it ignores armor, DR, and spell resistance, so it's at least pretty reliable.

Coure eladrins, available with Celestial Familiar, are a personal favorite of mine. They can turn into an incorporeal ball of light at will, which allows them to pass through physical barriers and move in complete silence, making them one of the best scouts you can get. They have the same tongues, detect evil, and magic circle abilities as lantern archons. They also have dancing lights and faerie fire at will to light up your enemies.

Those are my top 4.

[Bad Wolf]

Okay, thanks for the info.

[atemu1234]

You don't even need a binder level. Dip into Anima Mage, or meld a Strongheart vest.

Strongheart Vest? Why do you say that, Snowbluff? Because everyone who thinks it doesn't work, is factually wrong.

Logic behind this, please?

[Snowbluff]

Logic behind this, please?

Um, the rules. Strongheart Vest prevents small portions of ability damage. Hellfire Warlock's text leaves that loophole open. It's been pointed out above. RAW, no argument exists against the vest. Fluffwise, there is an argument, but that's no more valid than the opposition.

[torrasque666]

Logic behind this, please?

Basically he's saying that the first sentence of the description of the soulmeld is merely fluff and not to be followed. However, its in the same paragraph as the mechanical benefit, and the first paragraph in any soulmeld description is a fluff one( i may be mistaken, but I don't have time right now to comb through the entire section) If it was to be separate from the benefit of protecting from ability damage then it would likely have looked like this:

The strongheart vest protects you from attacks that wouldreduce your ability scores.
Any time you would take ability damage, such as Constitution damage or Strength damage, the amount of the damage is reduced by 1 point, to a minimum of 0. For example, if you fail a saving throw against the poison of a monstrous centipede and would normally take 2 points of Dexterity damage from its poison, you take 1 point instead. Ten rounds later, if you fail a second saving throw against the poison and would normally take 1 point of Dexterity damage, you take no Dexterity damage instead.

[Snowbluff]

Basically he's saying that the first sentence of the description of the soulmeld is merely fluff and not to be followed. However, its in the same paragraph as the mechanical benefit, and the first paragraph in any soulmeld description is a fluff one( i may be mistaken, but I don't have time right now to comb through the entire section) If it was to be separate from the benefit of protecting from ability damage then it would likely have looked like this:
Even if the first sentence wasn't fluff, the second sentence would contradict the first when it comes to ability damage from non-attack sources.

[Zaq]

The best all-around Core option for an Improved Familiar is the imp. It has good stats, perfect flight, and powerful spell-like/supernatural abilities. Invisibility and detect good at will, suggestion once per day, commune once per week, and the ability to take monstrous spider form and shoot webs at people. All very useful.

This is true, and imps are useful for the reasons mentioned here.

A pitfall that I fell into with my experiences using an imp familiar, though: If you're a reader of OotS, you may think that imps have teleportation abilities (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html). As it turns out, imps get no such thing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#imp). (Qarr is apparently just special.) I had a character with an imp familiar, and I assumed that it could do what Qarr could do, and I had it teleport around and solve some kind of problem that way. When I went back and checked what imps could actually do, I felt absolutely horrible—it may not have been intentionally cheating, but it was still definitely cheating, and it drastically altered the way we approached the problem. It's one thing to neglect a penalty or double-count a bonus or something, since those don't fundamentally change how you're approaching a problem, but this was another matter altogether. (I ended up retiring the character in shame, since that wasn't actually the first time that I thought he could do something he shouldn't have been allowed to do—my GM didn't demand it or anything, but I just didn't feel right continuing to play that character.)

Anyway, imps are cool, but use the Monster Manual as your source for what they can do, not OotS. Don't end up unintentionally cheating the way I did.

[Segev]

My favorite trick is one I don't see mentioned often: Take the Darkness and Devil's Sight invocations together, and make it hard for your enemies to see.

As a Dragonfire Adept, get Blindsense somehow and drop fog and darkness. You don't need to worry about miss chances if you can tell what square(s) to drop your breath weapon on.


You don't even need a binder level. Dip into Anima Mage, or meld a Strongheart vest.

Strongheart Vest? Why do you say that, Snowbluff? Because everyone who thinks it doesn't work, is factually wrong.


not according to the FAQ. And it's best to level with your GM anyway about such matters.

Snowbluff, saying somebody is "factually wrong" doesn't make it so, especially when the RAW is pretty clear the other way. The Hellfire Warlock's ability specifically says that it takes of your vital substance, and that it DOES NOT WORK if you don't give of that substance. There's no unambiguous "this is fluff, you can ignore it" and "this is mechanical, you cannot" in the rules text. It says what makes the power work, and spells out how that manifests.

Strongheart Vest makes you immune to the specific ability damage that HFW would inflict. Thus, it makes you not able to benefit from hellfire blast.

Naebarius works, because you take the damage.

[Troacctid]

My favorite trick is one I don't see mentioned often: Take the Darkness and Devil's Sight invocations together, and make it hard for your enemies to see.

I prefer the At Home in the Deep feat for this purpose; a low-level feat slot is a cheaper resource to spend than an invocation.

[Ruethgar]

The Dung Snake is the best standard familiar and is comparable to some of the weaker improved familiar options.

As to the Strongheart Vest, as stated before, Hellfire does not specify if you are immune to its Con damage but rather if you are immune to Con damage entirely, which you are not, only resistant. Furthermore you are still expending a portion of the power inherent in your soul to produce the Hellfire effect, you just have it manipulated in such a manner that it has no detrimental effect.

[ComaVision]

I don't think there's any point in debating the Vest bit. Both sides feel strongly and I don't imagine either is likely to change their mind.

[Sith_Happens]

Um, the rules. Strongheart Vest prevents small portions of ability damage. Hellfire Warlock's text leaves that loophole open. It's been pointed out above. RAW, no argument exists against the vest. Fluffwise, there is an argument, but that's no more valid than the opposition.

Fluffwise there's also a counterargument. Soulmelds are made of raw soul energy. So the diabolical forces come calling for that piece of your vitality you owe them, and you give them some incarnum instead. Even if they can tell the difference they probably don't care, vital essence is vital essence.


(Qarr is apparently just special.)

Qarr has sorcerer levels.


Strongheart Vest makes you immune to the specific ability damage that HFW would inflict.

Except it doesn't. It makes you resistant. Fully resistant, but that's not the same thing as immune. It just means the unspecified forces trying to sap away your vitality aren't sapping hard enough.

[TrollCapAmerica]

Interesting debate about limiting the power of a tier 4 class becoming somewhat more efficient at an inefficient way to win fights

[Snowbluff]

Fluffwise there's also a counterargument. Soulmelds are made of raw soul energy. So the diabolical forces come calling for that piece of your vitality you owe them, and you give them some incarnum instead. Even if they can tell the difference they probably don't care, vital essence is vital essence.

That's what I was referring to.


Interesting debate about limiting the power of a tier 4 class becoming somewhat more efficient at an inefficient way to win fights

This is what I mean when I say a DM would have to be hostile. :smalltongue:

[darksolitaire]

Real Warlocks take the Con damage and walk it off.

[Bad Wolf]

Real Warlocks take the Con damage and walk it off.

Real warlocks make the forces of hell give the points back.

[Mr Adventurer]

Qarr has sorcerer levels.

Was this confirmed somewhere? He doesn't say "teleport" so presumably he's casting it Silently. If it's Greater Teleport he's casting, that makes it an 8th level spell and Qarr a 16th level Sorcerer Imp. You'd think a minion of Hell that powerful would have been promoted by now.