3.5e Battle Jump RAI question

[Newtor]

I've been DMing a campaign for a while with a player who's by far the best at optimising, playing a melee character and using relatively broken tricks, reasoning that this is to make up for how later on the wizard will be stronger. His most recent move was to take battle jump. It states that you can initiate a charge by falling five feet instead of moving forward 10ft. I thought this meant that when you charge as a full round action, you can fall five feet instead of running forwards 10ft. He says, however, that the charge is a free action, and thus if he can continuously fall past enemies with a huge speed he can make 20 full attacks (using pounce).

Now, he refuses to be faulted on this section, but there's another bit I find odd. It says in the text of Battle Jump that you have to 'hurl yourself' and therefore cannot initiate it after levitating or flying up. Furthermore you can't fall too far before initiating the charge. I assume this is because you lose the hurling momentum. Therefore, I assume, you cannot jump up and fall to start it, because you wouldn't have the momentum. He disagrees, because it is called Battle Jump, and specifically allows you to make jump rolls to resist the fall damage, but I think that this is for the falling, and only the falling, a special usage of jump.

Anyway, we've agreed to leave it up to you to determine if I have enough of a case to forbid his usage without resorting to Rule 0.

[Doctor Awkward]

The intent on Battle Jump was clearly to let a character use his momentum from falling off of high ground as the normal forward momentum you would have from running to charge.

Unfortunately, the specific wording does allow for some ludicrous interpretations, such as charging as a free action. I would never allow that.

This is probably just my love of Final Fantasy dragoons talking, but I have no problem with allowing a character to initiate a charge by leaping off the ground at an opponent and dropping down on them, providing they can reach the required height. I have played a character in a game that did this, and run a game with a similar character. Neither instance was terribly overpowered, as you need to make some pretty ridiculous checks to use this tactic against larger monsters, or find high ground which you would have to do anyway. While it's still likely against the intent of the feat, again there is nothing in the specific wording that would prevent it.

EDIT: In my game I ruled it as charging is still a full-round action. You can just now initiate one like this instead of having to get a running start first.

[Curmudgeon]

IHe says, however, that the charge is a free action, and thus if he can continuously fall past enemies with a huge speed he can make 20 full attacks (using pounce).
There's nothing in Battle Jump which says anything about free actions; this guy is making stuff up. Battle Jump doesn't mention actions at all, which means the basic rule (Charge being a special full-round action) still applies.

[sleepyphoenixx]

By RAW you can only initiate a battle jump by jumping from a place higher than your enemy, not by jumping from the ground. That limits the feat a lot though, so i'd personally allow the "Dragoon Charge" Tonymitsu mentioned.

In any case, jumping is not a free action. It's part of a move action, so at the most you'd get 2 charges per round, one per jump & following fall.

Since you need to jump at least 5ft higher than your opponent (10ft for medium, 15ft for large, etc.) you'll also need a massive jump check, since you're trying to clear vertical distance. That's a DC 40 to battle jump a medium creature if you have no high ground to jump off of, or a DC 60 for a large opponent.
It's also limited by your movement, so you'd better wear light armor and/or buff your speed because if you run out of movement mid-jump you won't get a charge from that move action. And you will, because those DCs are for a running start.

I think that's a pretty fair interpretation. You get up to 2 full attacks/round with an additional multiplier after all, so you better invest something. More likely without a lot of jump and movement boosting he'll get one battle jump every now and then when he finds a ledge or something similar to jump down from.

I really don't know how he came to the conclusion that he'd get 20 attacks/round, or how he managed to convince himself that that's a valid interpretation for actual play. And i probably don't want to.
If he wants to insist on it i'd just flat-out ban it, because that's just unreasonable.

[Newtor]

Phoenix, here's the thing. He can clear a DC 40 jump check (or will be able to) and when he can, he can jump and fall and jump and fall and jump and fall quite a few times, because by then he will be fast. I agree that cinematically, a Dragoon Charge sounds awesome, and I will suggest it to him.

As for charging as a free action, the argument is that it specifically states you can execute a charge by falling. That means that the charge is part of the action, not separate. If it were still a full action, this feat would be unusable.

[Curmudgeon]

As for charging as a free action, the argument is that it specifically states you can execute a charge by falling. That means that the charge is part of the action, not separate.
That doesn't make sense, because falling isn't an action.

[Darrin]

Battle Jump doesn't mention actions at all, which means the basic rule (Charge being a special full-round action) still applies.

Curmudgeon and I have a difference of opinion on this (or rather, my opinion differs from what he would consider a statement of fact). I believe the way this feat was intended to work is that any action that results in at least a 5' drop from above your opponent can be turned into a charge. But as others have already said, there is nothing free about the action: the movement must come from some type of action: swift, move, or standard. Unless your Battle Jumper has some method to generate extra actions (RKV's Divine Impetus or Factotum's Cunning Surge), then at best this limits you to three battle jumps per turn.

If this is how your group understands Battle Jump to work, then some of the more notable methods to activate it is with the Shadow Jaunt/Shadow Step/Shadow Blink maneuvers (Tome of Battle). Psionic powers such as dimension hop or hustle might also come into play, as well as the Blink Shirt soulmeld from Magic of Incarnum. While these various "teleport" methods don't directly involve a Jump check, they don't explicitly forbid one either (specifically, a "Jumping Down" check).


By RAW you can only initiate a battle jump by jumping from a place higher than your enemy, not by jumping from the ground.

The RAW is murky. You could also argue that a ledge is required, which actually prevents then charge, since you can't charge "around the corner" of the ledge.



In any case, jumping is not a free action. It's part of a move action, so at the most you'd get 2 charges per round, one per jump & following fall.


You can add hustle for a third move action. Maybe more, if Marshall/Factotum get involved.



Since you need to jump at least 5ft higher than your opponent (10ft for medium, 15ft for large, etc.) you'll also need a massive jump check, since you're trying to clear vertical distance. That's a DC 40 to battle jump a medium creature if you have no high ground to jump off of, or a DC 60 for a large opponent.


Thri-Kreen can get to a Jump check DC 40 almost out of the starting gate. That's what I used for T'chub-t'chub (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18981080&postcount=23), my first entry for Jormengand's Slam Dunk contest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?402795). Actually, I purposefully avoided using Battle Jump just because the RAW/RAI is so unclear. For T'chub-t'chub, I started with Mantis Leap, because it gives a little more detail on how it's activated: any move action which involves a "normal Jump check" can be turned into a charge (assuming you can explicitly define what a "normal Jump check" is). This gives T'chub-t'chub two pounces per turn if he's out of PP, or three if he can activate hustle.

My second method to get around Battle Jump was to use Roof-Jumper (Cityscape) with Thumpelina (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18984751&postcount=25), but the text on how to activate that feat isn't any clearer than Battle Jump. But I figured Roof-Jumper would be less problematic than Battle Jump because it's not tied to a specific setting or region within that setting. Roof-Jumper also has more annoying prereqs, which means it takes a little more effort to get a decent "Death From Above" combo working.

As far as resolving the argument with your player... the levitate/fly restriction only applies to magical effects. If the Battle Jumper has a "natural" (or at least non-magical) fly speed (Dragonborn comes to mind), then presumably he can deliberately "stall" above an opponent, causing a fall and triggering Battle Jump. Presumably this is because the whole purpose of a magical levitate/fly effect is to deliberately avoid slamming into the ground at high speed. (Note: Curmudgeon will insist a full action is still required, so the target would have to be dumb enough to be directly below the Battle Jumper at the start of his turn, or he'll need some sort of swift-action movement to get into position for the drop, such as Travel Devotion, hustle, etc.)

My advice would be to tell the player that any action that results in a fall can be turned into a charge, but he's sniffing glue if he thinks he can get 20 pounce attacks out of it. One charge attack per fall. If he can figure out how to fall more than once per turn, good for him. There's still the issue of how to resolve the stacking issue when he falls into another creature's square (maybe an opposed Str/Dex check to see who gets knocked prone?) and whether he lands on his feet. If he doesn't have Boots of Landing or the Landing property on his armor, then he may have to spend a move action to get back on his feat or crawl out of his opponent's square.


Phoenix, here's the thing. He can clear a DC 40 jump check (or will be able to) and when he can, he can jump and fall and jump and fall and jump and fall quite a few times, because by then he will be fast.


It would cost him at least 30' per jump (15' up, 15' down). To get 20 jumps, he'd have to have 600' base speed. And while that's not entirely impossible (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17943699&postcount=115), it sounds unlikely.

However, I think we can bring up another argument that prevents any movement after the charge happens. Take a look at the text for Pounce (Ex):

"When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack--including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability."
(emphasis added)

"Follow" means the Pounce has to happen after his movement is completed. If you allow movement after the full attack happens, then that makes Spring Attack even more pointless than it already is.

If he actually insists on getting Spring Attack, even then I think I'd draw the line at "move, attack, move, period", rather than "move, attack, move, attack, move, attack, etc." because I don't see how Spring Attack allows that.

[Twurps]

Darrin makes a good point regarding pounce. Just to add to that:
"When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack--including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability." (emphasis added)

Making a full attack is a full round action.
Pounce gives you the ability to move (charge) before this full round action, and so basically makes the movement (up to the point where you make your full round attack!) free. It does nothing however to prevent the full-attack from being a full-round action. Therefore: Once the pounce has been initiated you don't have any actions left. (not even a 5 foot step, as you've already moved in the turn)

[Curmudgeon]

If he actually insists on getting Spring Attack, even then I think I'd draw the line at "move, attack, move, period", rather than "move, attack, move, attack, move, attack, etc." because I don't see how Spring Attack allows that.
It doesn't. If you've got the Premium Player's Handbook, you'll find the updated version of Spring Attack there:
When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can split your move action in that round in order to move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can't use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.

You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Darrin makes a good point regarding pounce. Just to add to that:
"When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack--including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability." (emphasis added)

Making a full attack is a full round action.
Pounce gives you the ability to move (charge) before this full round action, and so basically makes the movement (up to the point where you make your full round attack!) free. It does nothing however to prevent the full-attack from being a full-round action. Therefore: Once the pounce has been initiated you don't have any actions left. (not even a 5 foot step, as you've already moved in the turn)

So by your interpretation it only gives a x2 damage multiplier? That's still a pretty decent bonus if you think about it.

Even if you allow the attack to trigger for free after a jump/fall it's still not any worse than shadowpounce though, you're just replacing teleports with jump checks. It's easier to get 3 jumps/round than 3 teleports, but you also need to get enough movement to actually use all 3. Though you also get the damage bonus.

If shadowpounce is too much for your game you should probably go with your interpretation of Battle Jump.

[atemu1234]

So by your interpretation it only gives a x2 damage multiplier? That's still a pretty decent bonus if you think about it.

Even if you allow the attack to trigger for free after a jump/fall it's still not any worse than shadowpounce though, you're just replacing teleports with jump checks. It's easier to get 3 jumps/round than 3 teleports, but you also need to get enough movement to actually use all 3. Though you also get the damage bonus.

If shadowpounce is too much for your game you should probably go with your interpretation of Battle Jump.

Either way, it should still not alter the fact that charges take a full round :smallconfused:.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Either way, it should still not alter the fact that charges take a full round :smallconfused:.

Why not? There's plenty of class features and feats that change what kind of action something takes.
The first sentence of Battle Jump is "You can execute a charge by simply dropping from a height of at least 5 feet above your opponent." after all.

That can certainly be interpreted as "no matter how you got there, as long as you drop on your enemy from above you can turn it into a charge". Like with the Sudden Leap maneuver.
Getting more than one full attack per round may not be appropiate for the power level of every table, but it's appropiate for some, and certainly not unique (Shadowpounce).
So it's up to the DM to decide if that's in line with the power level of the campaign he's trying to run.