Dreamscarred Press Presents: Akashic Mysteries, Thread 2

[Ssalarn]

The Akashic Mysteries playtest is now officially closed! Our final version is available to subscribers on DriveThruRPG, Paizo, and directly through DSP's website. We're currently looking for any feedback on layout glitches, spelling or grammar errors, or similar issues in the .pdf release before we go to print. Thank you to everyone who participated in this long-running playtest!

[Ssalarn]

I also wanted to note this separately from the OP; I'm leaving for my wedding and honeymoon and will be out through pretty much the rest of April. Please still feel free to leave comments, playtest feedback, etc. in my absence and I'll answer when I return. Psybomb is one of my premier playtesters and the author of several guides for the released classes, so he may be able to answer basic rules questions. Stack is a contributor, most notably of the Swarm Master archetype, so any updates or insight he gives on that or relate subjects should be respected as direct designer feedback. Lord_Gareth will be the Dreamscarred Press representative in my absence and can handle anything related to the project that needs to be directly addressed by someone from DSP and can't wait until my return.

Thanks everyone!

***Edit***

For some reason it said February instead of April when I originally said when I'd be gone, then it tried to turn my corrected April back to February. Computers are weird.

[PsyBomb]

Posting early to add this note: Anyone who needs a basic run-down of any of the classes can find the link to my guides down in my signature. All of them are within the context of their own class, however, and several of the Veils have much greater (or deeply diminished) value outside of them (for example, when taken by the Shape Veil feat on a non-Veilweaving class). Any questions or requests for advice, I will answer ASAP. I look at this thread daily at least, so if a question isn't answered immediately by someone you can rest assured I'll get around to it soon.

Much of what I say is going to be backed by RAI straight from Ssalarn, for every comment you see here I've probably asked him three questions to that effect.

Finally, I welcome any constructive comments and criticisms, whether here of in my guides. More voices can only improve the final product, and I want anyone picking up a Veilweaver for the first time to be one read away from rocking out with the best of them.

[Lord_Gareth]

I am here! Let us populate this thread with questions and feedback.

[Powerdork]

So the fluff describes veilweaving as old "arcane magic" and I'm wondering if I can allow it in my Third Dawn game. Any insight?

[Mithril Leaf]

Posting early to add this note: Anyone who needs a basic run-down of any of the classes can find the link to my guides down in my signature. All of them are within the context of their own class, however, and several of the Veils have much greater (or deeply diminished) value outside of them (for example, when taken by the Shape Veil feat on a non-Veilweaving class). Any questions or requests for advice, I will answer ASAP. I look at this thread daily at least, so if a question isn't answered immediately by someone you can rest assured I'll get around to it soon.

Much of what I say is going to be backed by RAI straight from Ssalarn, for every comment you see here I've probably asked him three questions to that effect.

Finally, I welcome any constructive comments and criticisms, whether here of in my guides. More voices can only improve the final product, and I want anyone picking up a Veilweaver for the first time to be one read away from rocking out with the best of them.

On that note, the recent FAQ about size increases broke my old damage builds. I'm feeling a natural attack build coming up.

[Kaidinah]

So the fluff describes veilweaving as old "arcane magic" and I'm wondering if I can allow it in my Third Dawn game. Any insight?
I also have this question. Third Dawn looks very interesting to me.

[stack]

So the fluff describes veilweaving as old "arcane magic" and I'm wondering if I can allow it in my Third Dawn game. Any insight?

Third Dawn is the psionics only setting, correct? It would simply be a matter of fluff, if you want to use it. Psionics, magic, akasha, they are largely mechanical terms, in the game world a commoner wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I don't see any barrier to refluffing Akashic energy as being channeled from within, fluffing it as psionic in nature.

I've given some thought to psionic veils and think they will work well, while we are on the subject. Augments similar to the Sleeping Goddess discipline or the zealot's class features seem to integrate well.

[Powerdork]

Third Dawn is the psionics only setting, correct? It would simply be a matter of fluff, if you want to use it. Psionics, magic, akasha, they are largely mechanical terms, in the game world a commoner wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I don't see any barrier to refluffing Akashic energy as being channeled from within, fluffing it as psionic in nature.

Unfortunately, the group I'm running it for isn't so hot on refluffing. I'd love to encourage them to use akashic material, but I feel it might leave a bad taste in their mouths.

[Lord_Gareth]

In Third Dawn, akashic power is psionic in nature and inspired by the Flowshaper of Ksaren. Rename Essence to Flow, and the overall ability is known as Flowshaping. It is not otherwise changed.

[Deadkitten]

Binding Essence: Some feats and veils will require you to bind, rather than invest, essence into them. When essence is bound into a receptacle, it cannot be recovered or reassigned to another receptacle until 24 hours have passed, or the next time the user shapes their veils for the day, whichever comes first. If the receptacle is sundered or disjoined, the user immediately takes essence burn equal to the total essence invested in the veil. Once the burn has recovered, they can reinvest the essence normally



Treewalker [Akashic]You can run up trees and other living vertical surfaces as though they were solid ground.
Prerequisites: Con 15 or veilweaver level 1, ability to bind veils to your Feet slot.
Benefit: You gain the ability to bind your essence to trees, plants, and other non-sentient living things, allowing you to move up and down the surfaces of these as though you had a climb speed equal to your base land speed.You gain 1 point of essence.

This seems to say that once you use this feat, you cannot regain the essence until24 hours later.
Perhaps it needs to say invest instead of bind?

[Deadkitten]

Also, I would LOVE a feat that granted like maybe a 1/day use of the Viziers veilshifting just so I have an option sometimes when something unexpected is encountered by the Guru or Daevic.

[Kaidinah]

In Third Dawn, akashic power is psionic in nature and inspired by the Flowshaper of Ksaren. Rename Essence to Flow, and the overall ability is known as Flowshaping. It is not otherwise changed.
Sweet. Very good to know.

[Ssalarn]

This seems to say that once you use this feat, you cannot regain the essence until24 hours later.
Perhaps it needs to say invest instead of bind?

Both bind and invest are actually bad terms here; "briefly fuse" or something to that effect would be better since Treewalker doesn't require any invested essence at all for its function.

Also, Gareth explained Akasha's relation to Third Dawn perfectly.

Anyways, Florida's great, Universal Studios is a blast, and my fiancee' just finished spending an inordinate amount of money on perfume, so I've gotta dip.

Later guys!

[stack]

Get out of here, go have fun with real people! We'll try not to burn anything down while you are away.

[Mithril Leaf]

Get out of here, go have fun with real people! We'll try not to burn anything down while you are away.

I make no such promises personally. :smalltongue:

[Biapolis]

Salutations. So, I am likely to be throwing together a Swarm Master for a game (sadly, the game won't be going on much longer, likely only one more session, but wanted to try Akashic stuff at least once before we switch to testing a friend's homebrew system/setting). Anyways, was wondering if there was a plan to change the Swarm Master in the document any time soon? I know there was a lot of talk about it some time ago, but most of it seems to have not been added to the document yet. As shown there, they still have powerpoints with little to do with them, no native way to increase the essence capacity of pestilence cloak, and a fairly squishy swarm at 10hp per essence. If there aren't any plans to update the document (particularly over the weekend), are there any changes that would be suggested that are likely to be made? I understand that Ssalarn is off on vacation, so no pressure. :]

[stack]

I sent some revisions in awhile back, but I think the document update was pending some other stuff, like Ssalarn having time. When I am not on my phone I will try to remember to send over my proposed changes, if you like.

[Biapolis]

I sent some revisions in awhile back, but I think the document update was pending some other stuff, like Ssalarn having time. When I am not on my phone I will try to remember to send over my proposed changes, if you like.

That would be helpful, thanks. :]

[soulsabre345]

Question about Crusader's Shield. If a Vizier grabs it through shape veil, and he shares it through path of the seer, do the allies affected use their meldshaper level or the Vizier's to determine the shield's hardness and HP? It seems to imply it should given you use the Vizier's saves on shared veils, but it doesn't seem to be explicitly mentioned.

Also, I think I know the answer to this already, but it's worth asking regardless. If you take shape veil to get a veil from the list of a different veilweaving class, it just gets added to the known veil list for that class correct? It doesn't give you anything further beyond that. (As in if you can normally have 4 veils active, taking shape veil doesn't let you have 4 active veils + the veil from shape veil.)

[Milo v3]

How good of a healer can a low to mid-level guru be?

[PsyBomb]

How good of a healer can a low to mid-level guru be?

Mediocre, I guess? They don't actually have too terribly much in the way of direct healing, just access to the Martyr's Toga and Immaculate Touch veils. You can clear some debuffs depending on your Philosophy as well. If you want to heal using Akasha, though, Guru makes a good dip for a Cleric in order to enable a couple of channeling feats.

[Milo v3]

Mediocre, I guess? They don't actually have too terribly much in the way of direct healing, just access to the Martyr's Toga and Immaculate Touch veils. You can clear some debuffs depending on your Philosophy as well. If you want to heal using Akasha, though, Guru makes a good dip for a Cleric in order to enable a couple of channeling feats.

Hmm... abit disappointing but understandable. I was going akasin for philosophy, since it gets removing blindness/deafness and raise dead. I'm not really interested in any of the akashic channeling feats, since none of them have anything to do with improving healing.

[Ssalarn]

Question about Crusader's Shield. If a Vizier grabs it through shape veil, and he shares it through path of the seer, do the allies affected use their meldshaper level or the Vizier's to determine the shield's hardness and HP? It seems to imply it should given you use the Vizier's saves on shared veils, but it doesn't seem to be explicitly mentioned.

Also, I think I know the answer to this already, but it's worth asking regardless. If you take shape veil to get a veil from the list of a different veilweaving class, it just gets added to the known veil list for that class correct? It doesn't give you anything further beyond that. (As in if you can normally have 4 veils active, taking shape veil doesn't let you have 4 active veils + the veil from shape veil.)

Allies of Vizier sharing Crusader's Shield would use the Vizier's veilweaving level to determine hardness and hp.

Yes, Shape Veil for someone who's already a veilweaver just adds the veil to their list.

[Vhaidara]

I've decided I'm going to try a veilweaver for paybombs new game. Probably guru. Also, subbing to the thread.

Also, have fun Ssalarn. Best of luck to you and to your fiancee.

[stack]

Psybomb has a new game? Why was I not informed?

[Vhaidara]

Psybomb has a new game? Why was I not informed?

Spawned out of GitP as Gods. I think he's still taking for now.

[PsyBomb]

Spawned out of GitP as Gods. I think he's still taking for now.

Indeed I am, right now at 2.5 apps in.

But back to the topic, shall we?

[Milo v3]

Is there any chance of their being a feat that will let you add in additional weapons to a philosophy? It seems like they're flavourful but abit restrictive, especially with only one having unarmed.

Edit: What's the range for the Akasin's luminosity ray?

[stack]

Is there any chance of their being a feat that will let you add in additional weapons to a philosophy? It seems like they're flavourful but abit restrictive, especially with only one having unarmed.

Edit: What's the range for the Akasin's luminosity ray?

Philosophy weapons and additions to them were discussed around here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?349964-Dreamscarred-Press-Introduces-Akashic-Mysteries&p=18416617&highlight=discipline+weapon+feat#post18416617). I do not believe we have seen the final result of the discussion though.

[Ssalarn]

I'm back(ish)! Back in the states anyways. A feat allowing Gurus to treat additional weapons as philosophy weapons will be in the compiled Supplemental release. It's called Martial Union, requires you to have Weapon Focus in the weapon you want to focus your Philosophy through, and adds 1/2 the Essence invested in your Gentle Touch as an untyped bonus to your to-hit with Philosophy weapons.

Looks like we missed including the range for the ray option of Luminosity; it should be 60 feet. I'll see that that gets addressed when we run the compilation updates.

[Kaidinah]

Welcome back(ish)! Glad to have you back(ish).

Sounds like a pretty good feat. I probably wouldn't build a Guru without it, considering how much I like smacking dudes around.

[Taveena]

WHEEE EMPTY PYRAMID HYPE

Okay! So. Main thing I'd like to bring up is the slightly odd way Font of Vitality functions, in that it only ends when the DISCIPLE goes above half HP. Which results in the slightly bizarre situation where a Pharaoh has it within his interests to repeatedly stab himself so he can keep healing the party.

[PsyBomb]

That feat makes my Guru sense tingle, looking at about a +4 untyped attack bonus for people who are serious about that kind of thing. I like it, though, helps compensate for mid-BAB and the ability to get different weapons in the Philosophies is a great thing.

[stack]

I like it as well, though requiring weapon focus is a bit annoying. I don't think the feat is so overpowering that it needs a weak pre-req.

[PsyBomb]

I like it as well, though requiring weapon focus is a bit annoying. I don't think the feat is so overpowering that it needs a weak pre-req.

If it didn't require weapon focus, it would be an auto-pick for all Gurus who wanted to do any combat, period, starting from level 3. I'm not a fan of it, but I can see where it's coming from.

[Lord_Gareth]

If it didn't require weapon focus, it would be an auto-pick for all Gurus who wanted to do any combat, period, starting from level 3. I'm not a fan of it, but I can see where it's coming from.

Are we certain that's not a problem with Guru and not the feat concept?

[PsyBomb]

Are we certain that's not a problem with Guru and not the feat concept?

I'm pretty certain of it. The feat is worth the +1 on any Philosophy weapon from level 3 on, and and ends with +3 (or 4 if you, like many combat-oriented Gurus should, take Expanded Capacity on your Gentle Touch). This beats a flat +1 by a mile and a half, before counting the ability to tack exotic weapons onto your main fighting style. Put it this way, I voluntarily give up 4 AC on blitz builds for a +2 (Reckless Assault). It would be a lot like if Weapon Group Adaptation also gave you a +1/5 IL to attack with discipline weapons, people would take it regardless of if they needed to actually adapt a weapon group.

The feat tax isn't ideal, but something to that effect is needed on this feat concept.

EDIT: The flip side of this is that it turns true Exotic additions into a 3-feat sink (Proficiency, Focus, then Adaptation) to add. Tough position.

[Ssalarn]

Are we certain that's not a problem with Guru and not the feat concept?

It's not a "have to have to function" thing, it's a "so good you'd always take it at that price" thing. The Weapon Focus tax at least has some benefit, and gates the ability to the appropriate access point. It's also at that right cost where it's worth getting if you want to go combat brute, but not so good that every single build is going to take it.

[Kaidinah]

If there were a melee combat focused Guru archetype later on, I could see that feat being part of it, but I don't feel that it should have been a core Guru class feature.

[Vhaidara]

I would say that it sounds comparable to Grasp of Darkness for Harbingers or Elements as One for a mixed element Mystic. Namely, you CAN work without this, but why would you, when having it is so much better?

Or, for another comparison, Natural Spell for 3.5 druids. The most obvious example of "Are you good without this? Yes. Are you nigh infinitely better with this? Obviously."

[PsyBomb]

I would say that it sounds comparable to Grasp of Darkness for Harbingers or Elements as One for a mixed element Mystic. Namely, you CAN work without this, but why would you, when having it is so much better?

Or, for another comparison, Natural Spell for 3.5 druids. The most obvious example of "Are you good without this? Yes. Are you nigh infinitely better with this? Obviously."

Not QUITE at "class feature that replaces a feat" level, but a natural choice. It'll be high-priority for people wanting to use racial proficiencies (an Elf Vayist, for example) and for anyone aiming for heavy me lee regardless.

[Lord_Gareth]

Figured I'd post this here, solely in my capacity as a playtester and not as a member of Dreamscarred Press, as an idea:

What about a feat (or veil) that lets mind-affecting veils hit creatures normally immune to mind-affecting? Such creatures retain a bonus vs. the effects (investing essence reduces this bonus?) and mindless creatures remain immune.

[Kaidinah]

Figured I'd post this here, solely in my capacity as a playtester and not as a member of Dreamscarred Press, as an idea:

What about a feat (or veil) that lets mind-affecting veils hit creatures normally immune to mind-affecting? Such creatures retain a bonus vs. the effects (investing essence reduces this bonus?) and mindless creatures remain immune.There is a certain joy experienced when you cause fear in the undead. I think it could make a cool veil. The chakra bind could allow you to affect mindless creatures too, after a certain level of investment.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Somewhat OT, but it's only been up here, Ssalarn, when we gonna see Psitech / Shadewalker playtests? I have plans that involve playtesting and putting my players through hell. :smallamused:

[Ssalarn]

Somewhat OT, but it's only been up here, Ssalarn, when we gonna see Psitech / Shadewalker playtests? I have plans that involve playtesting and putting my players through hell. :smallamused:

I could have Shadewalker up this week if Andreas gives me the green light. I need about a dedicated week where I'm not working on anything other than Psitech to get it ready though; so that could be a little longer.

[Deadkitten]

Since we are talking about a possible feat for the guru I will re-post to see if there is any opinion on it....

So would it be terribly broken on unbalanced for there to be a feat or something that allowed a veil-weaving class such as the Guru or Daevic to have a 1/day or so use of the Vizier's Veil-shifting?

My main worry is a class such as the Daevic,which gets so few veils per day while having to shape specific ones as well, could really benefit from such a feat if they were thrown into a situation in which they were not fully prepared for.

[Ssalarn]

Since we are talking about a possible feat for the guru I will re-post to see if there is any opinion on it....

So would it be terribly broken on unbalanced for there to be a feat or something that allowed a veil-weaving class such as the Guru or Daevic to have a 1/day or so use of the Vizier's Veil-shifting?

My main worry is a class such as the Daevic,which gets so few veils per day while having to shape specific ones as well, could really benefit from such a feat if they were thrown into a situation in which they were not fully prepared for.

I've been looking into it. My biggest concern is that even once a day, that can make a huge impact in combat, so I've been doing some scenario testing and seeing what the best way to maybe do something like that would be. I don't want it to be so prereq intensive that no one takes it, but I also don't want it being on the "every veilweaver who's not a Vizier will always take this" list.

[soulsabre345]

I have a couple questions about the Crusader's Shield veil. First though, I do love the veil and the options it enables, but it doesn't say what happens when the shield breaks from damage, and if you use it in a space too small for it. So, my questions are;

1. If the shield is destroyed, does the extra damage from that attack go anywhere? (shield has 20 hp, gets hit for 40, does the extra 20 damage hit the user?)
2. If the shield is blocking off a passage, but is destroyed by a burst effect, does the attack proceed past the user or is it halted by the shield? What about a spread effect?
3. If using the shield in a area too small for it (5' high and wide passageway, and you use the basic version which covers a 10' square), does it just fill the area as much as it can, or does it need to be created in a area large enough for it?
4. If there are two veilweavers using the shield, what happens if the shields intersect? (such as two veilweavers side by side and placing it at a 45 degree angle to their sides, making it cross in a x in front and between them)

[Deadkitten]

I've been looking into it. My biggest concern is that even once a day, that can make a huge impact in combat, so I've been doing some scenario testing and seeing what the best way to maybe do something like that would be. I don't want it to be so prereq intensive that no one takes it, but I also don't want it being on the "every veilweaver who's not a Vizier will always take this" list.

Mayhaps have the feat take like 1-10 minutes to reshape a veil?
Kinda like the Binder feat from tome of magic.

[PsyBomb]

Figured I'd post this here, solely in my capacity as a playtester and not as a member of Dreamscarred Press, as an idea:

What about a feat (or veil) that lets mind-affecting veils hit creatures normally immune to mind-affecting? Such creatures retain a bonus vs. the effects (investing essence reduces this bonus?) and mindless creatures remain immune.

I'd love to see that effect on a Veil or Feat. There are a few of them that could really use the help, notably all the Pattern and Fear-Based ones (opens up a ton of BFC options for everyone, especially Swarm Master Dreads).


Mayhaps have the feat take like 1-10 minutes to reshape a veil?
Kinda like the Binder feat from tome of magic.

I was thinking exactly the same thing. If it took a minute of concentration, it would be unusable in combat but enough to be able to shift a needed resource otherwise.

[Ssalarn]

Mayhaps have the feat take like 1-10 minutes to reshape a veil?
Kinda like the Binder feat from tome of magic.

I could see that working. Make it more of an out of combat thing, but still useful if you, say, shape Circlet of Brass for what you think is an adventure into the icy peaks but turns out to be a delve into the heart of an active volcano full of salamanders and their red dragon overlord.

[Deadkitten]

I could see that working. Make it more of an out of combat thing, but still useful if you, say, shape Circlet of Brass for what you think is an adventure into the icy peaks but turns out to be a delve into the heart of an active volcano full of salamanders and their red dragon overlord.

another option would be that if you were fine with it possibly being able to be used in combat, that using the feat would do some constitution damage or something similar.

kinda like trying to reshape a veil that way damages your life energy or something like that.
you could maybe do some unhealable essence burn too.

[Deadkitten]

From the Cincture of the Dragon:


Chakra Bind (Belt): [D16] Binding this potent defensive veil to your Belt chakra causes the scales to grow in size and whirl around you, intercepting even some magical attacks. As a standard action you can activate a stunning barrier ACG effect as an at-will spell-like ability. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to your primary veilweaving modifier plus the number of points of essence invested in this ability.

Was this maybe supposed to be the greater version of this spell?
I was wondering because the belt bind does not come online until 13th level.

Here are the two spells for quick reference just cause I feel like it. :smallbiggrin:


Stunning Barrier
Source Advanced Class Guide pg. 194 (Amazon)
School abjuration; Level arcanist 1, cleric/oracle 1, inquisitor 1, paladin 1, sorcerer/wizard 1, warpriest 1
Casting
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Effect
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 round/level or until discharged
Saving Throw none and Will negates (see text); Spell Resistance no and yes (see text)
Description
You are closely surrounded by a barely visible magical field. The field provides a +1 deflection bonus to AC and a +1 resistance bonus on saves. Any creature that strikes you with a melee attack is stunned for 1 round (Will negates). Once the field has stunned an opponent, the spell is discharged.


Stunning Barrier, Greater
Source Advanced Class Guide pg. 195 (Amazon)
School abjuration; Level arcanist 3, cleric/oracle 3, inquisitor 3, paladin 3, sorcerer/wizard 3, warpriest 3
Casting
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Effect
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 round/level or until discharged
Saving Throw none and Will negates (see text); Spell Resistance no and yes (see text)
Description
This spell functions as stunning barrier, except as noted above, and it provides a +2 bonus to AC and on saving throws. It is not discharged until it has stunned a number of creatures equal to your caster level.


Honestly, no matter what you do the duration is going to be less than the original spells.
Getting the 1st level version of Stunning barrier at 13th level seems kinda weak considering you have to spend a standard action to maybe negate a single attack. You could make it a swift action and it would be tolerable and probably balanced since it keeps you from shifting essence that turn.

Or if you meant it to be the 3rd level version that would be neat as well, but it should stay a standard for obvious reasons. :smallbiggrin:

[NomGarret]

I could see that working. Make it more of an out of combat thing, but still useful if you, say, shape Circlet of Brass for what you think is an adventure into the icy peaks but turns out to be a delve into the heart of an active volcano full of salamanders and their red dragon overlord.

Yeah. This is way closer to what happened to my Vizier in last week's game than I'm comfortable with. I had Circlet of Brass shaped. We were chasing BBEG through his lair but had to cross the pit of lava. And I was all out of veil shifting.

[PsyBomb]

Anyone else looking at Pathfinder Unchained and looking at applications among these classes? Wrath (Justice) gets a big boost from Stamina system if it's allowed, rerolling bad dice on Vital Strike can be clutch.

[Ssalarn]

Anyone else looking at Pathfinder Unchained and looking at applications among these classes? Wrath (Justice) gets a big boost from Stamina system if it's allowed, rerolling bad dice on Vital Strike can be clutch.

Whoo, yeah, that could be a big freaking deal.

I'm trying to figure out how some of the new skill mastery stuff fits in.

[PsyBomb]

Skill mastery, nothing really jumped out at me. Even with the bonuses the Veils give, you still have to unlock it in the first place and the effects aren't really game-breaking.

[Taveena]

Sorry for asking for the clarification here - but are creatures granted through Veils valid targets for Share Veil?
Also, is it intended that you can set up a chain of undead commanded with Dark Lord's Ring of Essence Binding with the Plague Zombie or Cairn Wight?

[Ssalarn]

Sorry for asking for the clarification here - but are creatures granted through Veils valid targets for Share Veil?


Yes.



Also, is it intended that you can set up a chain of undead commanded with Dark Lord's Ring of Essence Binding with the Plague Zombie or Cairn Wight?

No. There will be an update to the core doc reflecting a change that was actually announced some time ago but for some reason got lost in layout:
Wights created by the veil cannot create spawn. Also of note, you wouldn't have any control over plague zombies created by the disease.

[Adslahnit]

What is the intended benefit of the basic effect of the Collar of Skilled Instruction?

As far as I am aware, the Aid Another action for skill checks and ability checks has no concrete range listed, so allowing Aid Another to be used upon such checks from 10 feet away hardly seems like an actual advantage.

If it was for Aid Another in combat, I could understand, since that has a somewhat concrete range, but the Collar of Skilled Instruction is specifically only for skill checks and ability checks.

[DrunkenMists]

I have to say; Every time Dreamscarred press puts out something; I become more and more impressed.
I enjoyed the Psionics, Love the Path of War.

And now? I haven't even made it far into reading the Vizer; and I'm already impressed about one ability it has.

Eldritch Insight.
Not the most impressive ability for the class; very dependent on having charge magic items and such in the first place...

But.. I was quickly enamored with the thought of being able to use it with a staff!.
Paizo already did a reasonable bit enough to make this concept useable; But it still had the problem concept that the start of the Vizer Book mentions "On another occasion, I played in a group where the dreaded “15 minute adventuring day” wasn’t just a common occurrence, it was how several of the players honestly thought the game was meant to be played, much to the dismay of the group’s fighter."

It was have your staff recharged and hope for a quiet day; or keep your spells and never recharge your staff.
Not only that; but RaW; it seems to allow you to at the least; use a single essense into a charge item..and use Divine OR arcane magic without UMD checks :d

the only thing that strikes me as odd is how late the path of the crafter gets "At 17th level, the vizier reduces the cost to create
wondrous items, rings, and staves by 25%."

By level 17. you've probally done the majority of crafting (85% of your way to level 20...)
This seems like more an ability to give a lower lever..

[Taveena]

Is the change to Empty Pyramid to make it grant essence rather than require it actually a thing that's happening, or is it something that I just heard suggested a lot and thought it was accepted?

[NineThePuma]

In my never ending quest to find a way to play a Non-Leader (in 4e terms) Initiator, I swung in to take a look at the Pharoah when someone mentioned it offhandedly (along with a statement that the Pharoah was super duper Alpha) and I noticed that, by the wonky writing of the Maneuvers feature, it cannot gain any maneuvers after level 1, because by the way the ability is written it does not have access to any disciplines.

Looking forward to more though.

[Ssalarn]

What is the intended benefit of the basic effect of the Collar of Skilled Instruction?

As far as I am aware, the Aid Another action for skill checks and ability checks has no concrete range listed, so allowing Aid Another to be used upon such checks from 10 feet away hardly seems like an actual advantage.

If it was for Aid Another in combat, I could understand, since that has a somewhat concrete range, but the Collar of Skilled Instruction is specifically only for skill checks and ability checks.

Aid another includes this clause " In many cases, a character's help won't be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once." Collar of Skilled Instruction is intended to lend some structure, basically putting it in the player's hands that you can always do the desired action within the given area. So, if your GM asks you how exactly you're helping the Rogue pick a lock from the other side of the room while you're also solving a separate puzzle, the answer is "My veil says I can". The base ability's usefulness may vary a bit from table to table depending on playstyle, but so far the veil's been pretty well received, and it does what it's supposed to do.


Is the change to Empty Pyramid to make it grant essence rather than require it actually a thing that's happening, or is it something that I just heard suggested a lot and thought it was accepted?

It's happening.


In my never ending quest to find a way to play a Non-Leader (in 4e terms) Initiator, I swung in to take a look at the Pharoah when someone mentioned it offhandedly (along with a statement that the Pharoah was super duper Alpha) and I noticed that, by the wonky writing of the Maneuvers feature, it cannot gain any maneuvers after level 1, because by the way the ability is written it does not have access to any disciplines.

Looking forward to more though.

I'll double-check the wording on that, but the Pharaoh does list the disciplines it has access to.

[Vhaidara]

I'll double-check the wording on that, but the Pharaoh does list the disciplines it has access to.

Actually, Nine has a point {scrubbed} At level one, you get two maneuvers from Pyramid and 2 from a set of other listed disciplines. However, it never says you have access to them, just that you get them at level 1.

[NineThePuma]

I'll double-check the wording on that, but the Pharaoh does list the disciplines it has access to.


Maneuvers: A pharaoh begins his career with knowledge of two martial maneuvers from the Empty Pyramid discipline and may select two additional maneuvers from the following available disciplines: Empty Pyramid, Golden Lion, Piercing Thunder, and Solar Wind. Once he knows a maneuver, he must ready it before he can use it (see Maneuvers Readied, below). The pharaoh’s maneuvers are not affected by spell resistance, and he does not provoke attacks of opportunity when he initiates one. He learns additional maneuvers at higher levels, as shown below. The pharaoh must meet a maneuver’s prerequisite to learn it.
Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even numbered pharaoh level after that, he can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one he already knows, but he must always know at least 1 maneuver from the Empty Pyramid discipline for every 4 class levels he possesses. In effect, the pharaoh loses the old maneuver in exchange for the new one. He can choose a new maneuver of any level he likes, and as long as he observes his restriction on the highest-level maneuvers he knows, the pharaoh need not replace the old maneuver with a maneuver of the same level. The pharaoh can swap only a single maneuver at any given level. A pharaoh’s key initiator attribute is Charisma.

Technically, as written, the "available disciplines" are only ale to be selected from at first level. Compare the language used in Warlord:


Maneuvers: A warlord begins his career with knowledge of six martial maneuvers. The disciplines available to him are Golden Lion, Primal Fury, Scarlet Throne, Solar Wind, and Thrashing Dragon. Once he knows a maneuver, he must ready it before he can use it (see Maneuvers Readied, below). A maneuver usable by warlords is considered an extraordinary ability unless otherwise noted in its description. His maneuvers are not affected by spell resistance, and he do not provoke attacks of opportunity when he initiates one. He learns additional maneuvers at higher levels, as shown on Table 1-3: The Warlord. The warlord must meet a maneuver's prerequisite to learn it. See the Systems and Use chapter for more information.
Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even numbered warlord level after that, he can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one he already knows. In effect, the warlord loses the old maneuver in exchange for the new one. He can choose a new maneuver of any level he likes, as long as he observes his restriction on the highest-level maneuvers he knows. The warlord need not replace the old maneuver with a maneuver of the same level. The warlord can swap only a single maneuver at any given level. A warlord's initiation modifier is Charisma.

Essentially, as written, he starts his career knowing 4 maneuvers from a fairly generous number of disciplines, but doesn't actually have any disciplines available to him. (Pharoah also has the problem of, if you Martial Tradition or Trait away Empty Pyramid for any reason, not being able to learn any maneuvers ever.)

[soulsabre345]

Oh, and I a couple questions posted earlier in the thread that I think got missed in the posts since, so I'm reposting them. I'd still really like to have these answered, just so that when I'm using this veil I don't have to turn to the DM and say I don't know what happens when it breaks.

I have a couple questions about the Crusader's Shield veil. First though, I do love the veil and the options it enables, but it doesn't say what happens when the shield breaks from damage, and if you use it in a space too small for it. So, my questions are;

1. If the shield is destroyed, does the extra damage from that attack go anywhere? (shield has 20 hp, gets hit for 40, does the extra 20 damage hit the user?)
2. If the shield is blocking off a passage, but is destroyed by a burst effect, does the attack proceed past the user or is it halted by the shield? What about a spread effect?
3. If using the shield in a area too small for it (5' high and wide passageway, and you use the basic version which covers a 10' square), does it just fill the area as much as it can, or does it need to be created in a area large enough for it?
4. If there are two veilweavers using the shield, what happens if the shields intersect? (such as two veilweavers side by side and placing it at a 45 degree angle to their sides, making it cross in a x in front and between them)

I also have another set of questions on the Shared Veil feat. How does Shared Veil work when your companion isn't a summon? It's fairly clear how it works if your sharing it once to a companion that isn't going to be there for several days. It's much less clear on if your companion is permanent. Namely;
5. If a Daevic has a Paramour, how often can he share a veil to a Paramour?
6. Can the veil being shared change within the same day?
7. If the veil shared can't be changed within the same day, what happens if say a Vizier has a familiar and veilshifts the veil he's sharing into something else. Can he pick a new veil to share, or does he now have to share the veil he replaced?
8. How do veils with limited uses per day interact with shared veil? As in, if you summoned a zombie with the Dark Lords Ring of Essence Binding , and shared immaculate touch with them and had them heal a party member, what's stopping you from animating a different zombie and doing it again?

[AGrinningCat]

I have to say; Every time Dreamscarred press puts out something; I become more and more impressed.
I enjoyed the Psionics, Love the Path of War.

And now? I haven't even made it far into reading the Vizer; and I'm already impressed about one ability it has.

Eldritch Insight.
Not the most impressive ability for the class; very dependent on having charge magic items and such in the first place...

But.. I was quickly enamored with the thought of being able to use it with a staff!.
Paizo already did a reasonable bit enough to make this concept useable; But it still had the problem concept that the start of the Vizer Book mentions "On another occasion, I played in a group where the dreaded “15 minute adventuring day” wasn’t just a common occurrence, it was how several of the players honestly thought the game was meant to be played, much to the dismay of the group’s fighter."

It was have your staff recharged and hope for a quiet day; or keep your spells and never recharge your staff.
Not only that; but RaW; it seems to allow you to at the least; use a single essense into a charge item..and use Divine OR arcane magic without UMD checks :d

the only thing that strikes me as odd is how late the path of the crafter gets "At 17th level, the vizier reduces the cost to create
wondrous items, rings, and staves by 25%."

By level 17. you've probally done the majority of crafting (85% of your way to level 20...)
This seems like more an ability to give a lower lever..
All of Path of the Crafter's abilities are strangely delayed.

Craft wondrous item you can get as early as 3rd, but Vizer gets it 2 levels later. Same with Forge Ring and Craft Staff. The Vizer gets 1/2 his level to crafting checks, which is nice, but considering the DC is going to be raised by 5 for each missing requirement in item crafting, you (assuming making this without other player's help) either have to get 1 scroll per 1000gp of the item or pay for spellcrafting services. The -25% would come in handy here, but having access to cheaper items if you DID have someone who could help, such as a bard or wizard, would upset early game balance pretty quickly if you had the down time to make it.

Consider the following:
The party rogue wants Boots of Striding and Springing. The relevant bits of this is that it's CL 3rd, costs 5,500gp/2,750gp, requires Longstrider (level 1 druid/ranger/travel spell), and the crafter must have 5 ranks in acrobatics. To create the item, the DC is 5 + CL, so 8. For the sake of argument, we will assume that both crafters (The Wizard and Vizer, below) have an int of 18.

A wizard, at 3rd level, can pick up Craft Wondrous Item. With 3 ranks in spellcraft and his +4 int, the Wizard, at minimum, can roll an 8. However, the Wizard does not have access to a Druid, Ranger, or Cleric that has access to the Travel domain, which means that the DC will increase by 5. He also doesn't have 5 ranks in acrobatics, increasing the DC by 5 again, for a total of 18 DC.
The wizard IS crafting focused, however. He is a universalist/Arcane Crafter with Metacharge(Free crafting feat at 3, +2 to making magic items), and his Familiar is a Valet archetype, which means that it can provide a +2 to craft checks and doubles the GP progress per day (2000gp per 8 hours instead of 1000gp).
All things considered, a Wizard could make the item in 2 days with a +11 to his check and a DC of 18.

A Vizer, at 3rd level, could attempt this, but it's in a weird spot where he's taking a feat that he'll get for free in 2 levels. Oddness aside, let's continue. Like the Wizard, he is crafting focus (Path of the Crafter), and like the wizard, he does not have access to Druid, Ranger, or Cleric/travel spells. Nor does he have 5 ranks in acrobatics. The DC for him is also set to 18, and much like the wizard, he has only 3 ranks in spellcraft and +4 int. Here's a bit of a grey area though: Eldritch Insight says that Vizer treats his Vizer levels as Arcane spell caster for Feats and Abilities. Nothing in here about Caster levels or items. I'll assume that the Vizer DOES count as a CL 3rd for this, otherwise the DC will be at 23 instead of 18.

As of 3rd level, a Vizer gets +1 from his Path, bringing his total up to +8. So a Vizier would have a total of +8 for a DC 18 (or 23) check. You *Might* be able to get away with using Eye of the Oracle since you can free-action it around, but since it requires a constant upkeep, a GM might rule that you can't use it for item crafting since it detracts your focus every 6 seconds. If so, it'll bring it up to a bit more reasonable levels. (+10 with 1 essence invested). However, it'll still take 3 days to complete compared to the Wizard's 2.

This is also assuming the Vizer and Wizard are on equal grounds considering the item creation requirements. If the Wizard has it on his wizard spell list, for a bit of gold he can go out, add it to his spellbook(Copying is cheap as hell, while scrolls are bit more pricy), then be able to drop the DC of the cost by 5. If the Wizard wants to burn another feat, he can take the Arcane Discovery Arcane Builder to gain a +4 to a type of magic item (Potions, Wonderous, etc) and reduce the time it takes by 25%.

This is, of course, assuming you just don't drop the 20/30gp(Spell level x caster level x 10gp) on someone who can cast it to just drop the DC by 5. You do have to find one though, which may become issues in certain campaigns (Pirates, for example, has you spending a ton of time alone on a boat.
---

If I could suggest something for the Vizer, rather than crafting bonuses, how about something close to the Impossible Bloodline 3rd level ability? Bolding mine:

Spontaneous Generation: At 3rd level, you gain Craft Wondrous Item as a bonus feat. In addition, when you craft a magic item (except a potion, a spell-trigger item, or a spell-completion item), you may ignore one spell prerequisite without increasing the creation DC. You can ignore an additional spell prerequisite at 9th, 15th, and 20th levels.


Being able to ignore item requirements will reduce the DC for the Vizier's item creation, meaning he can ignore spell requirements for the spells. Since the growth goes upwards, at 9th, 15th, and 20th, he'll be able to keep up with items that require multiple spells to create.

[DrunkenMists]

LinkQuoted for Size (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19201061&postcount=69)

Hmm. Right; Wizard get to make, at least arcane spells they can spellbook, easier. But They have a smaller pool of abilities they can produce in a day (aka, spell counts)

a Vizer; could ideally go all day just on veilweaving before touching the Item Creation Stuff. So having a somewhat less easy time does make sense.

I think I might crunch a Creationist Vizer just to see what I can do; compare it to a Wizard of the same style.

[Ssalarn]

Because it's relevant to the conversation, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18306638&postcount=25), is the errata list for the Vizier, and the .pdf will be updated with these changes.

[Milo v3]

Being able to make spell trigger and spell activation items will help my character concept a great deal. Also, is there any chance of a psionic crafter vizier archetype being made in the future? Universal items rather than wondrous. For viziers in high psionic settings.

[stack]

The same crafting feats are used for psionic items as magic items. Universal items are made with craft wonderous already.

[Milo v3]

The same crafting feats are used for psionic items as magic items. Universal items are made with craft wonderous already.

Huh, I thought it they all had different feats like in 3.5e since I recall a player taking the feat that makes those tattoos. This is very good news for my tony stark expy. :smallbiggrin:

[Ilorin Lorati]

Craft Tattoos is a different feat from Craft Potions, but that's the only one.

[NineThePuma]

... oh, right. Being constructive. Someone smacked me about it and I realized I dropped the ball here.


Maneuvers: A pharaoh begins his career with knowledge of four martial maneuvers, at least two of which must be from the Empty Pyramid discipline. The disciplines available to him are Empty Pyramid, Golden Lion, Piercing Thunder, and Solar Wind. Once he knows a maneuver, he must ready it before he can use it (see Maneuvers Readied, below). The pharaoh’s maneuvers are not affected by spell resistance, and he does not provoke attacks of opportunity when he initiates one. He learns additional maneuvers at higher levels, as shown below. The pharaoh must meet a maneuver’s prerequisite to learn it.
Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even numbered pharaoh level after that, he can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one he already knows, but he must always know at least 1 maneuver from the Empty Pyramid discipline for every 4 class levels he possesses. In effect, the pharaoh loses the old maneuver in exchange for the new one. He can choose a new maneuver of any level he likes, and as long as he observes his restriction on the highest-level maneuvers he knows, the pharaoh need not replace the old maneuver with a maneuver of the same level. The pharaoh can swap only a single maneuver at any given level. A pharaoh’s key initiator attribute is Charisma.

This changes the language to be "per code" in regards to PoW content in general while keeping the "Empty Pyramid takes up at least half your starting maneuvers" restriction.

[AGrinningCat]

Hmm. Right; Wizard get to make, at least arcane spells they can spellbook, easier. But They have a smaller pool of abilities they can produce in a day (aka, spell counts)

a Vizer; could ideally go all day just on veilweaving before touching the Item Creation Stuff. So having a somewhat less easy time does make sense.

I think I might crunch a Creationist Vizer just to see what I can do; compare it to a Wizard of the same style.

Due to the way item creation works, you don't want to start crafting on a day you've done adventuring on, since you can only put in 4 hours, and only get 2 hours worth of item creation.


If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work.

Generally you want to devote entire downtime day(s) to it.


pg. 5 - Path of the Crafter should read "The vizier gains a bonus equal to 1/2 his class level on all skill checks made as part of the crafting process, and can bypass the normal restrictions for spell prerequisites on spell trigger and spell activation items by adding 3 + spell level to the crafting DC".

What exactly is Spell activation? :smallconfused:

[Milo v3]

What exactly is Spell activation? :smallconfused:

A type of item, wands are spell activation items iirc

[AGrinningCat]

Wands are spell trigger, though. Unless spell trigger = spell activation, in which case I'm just dumb.

[Milo v3]

Just checked, potions are activated items, but it's Use-Activated not Spell-Activation.

[Ssalarn]

What exactly is Spell activation? :smallconfused:

/facepalm

Spell completion items. I have errata'd the errata...




the only thing that strikes me as odd is how late the path of the crafter gets "At 17th level, the vizier reduces the cost to create
wondrous items, rings, and staves by 25%."

By level 17. you've probably done the majority of crafting (85% of your way to level 20...)
This seems like more an ability to give a lower lever..

I've actually found that around 17th level is where crafting gets hardest to prioritize and most benefits from that ability. I've spent most of my career making the things I have to have, and suddenly I'm at a level where I have a ton of disposable income, an aching need to spend it because I'm getting close to retirement, and a whole world of cool goodies to choose from. I assume a Crafter vizier is probably going to have a ridiculous arsenal of staves, rods, and other goodies that he wants to drag around with him, and the 25% reduction in cost lets him pick a few extra high level staves or rods to add to his arsenal and also lowers the crafting time by roughly 25% (since crafting time is based on cost), so he can pump those things out at a pretty quick rate, even without the full use of the crazy shenanigans that a classic wizard would use to cut down on his production times.

The Crafter also gets that 1/2 level bonus to crafting checks; if he doesn't need to spend that bonus to cover spell prereqs, he can instead use it to cover the +5 DC bump to cut the required crafting time in half. He ultimately has the resources to cut crafting time way, way down, spread out over the whole life of the build.

[AGrinningCat]

At level 17, a wizard(Well, anyone who can take crafting feats) can reduce prices down to 14%(I believe it's around there, math tomorrow) by RAW. A Vizier gets to throw in his 25% to crafting cost as well(I'm fixing to head to sleep, so no math right now). The big comparison is that a level 17 wizard can make items in minutes due to Create Greater Demiplane and time shenanigans. Just for an example, 1 day in 'Wizard demiplane' could be 1 round in the material plane. With the exception of aging rules slowing you down(If you even age, I'm looking at you Elans), you could spend a month making items only to have 3 minutes pass in the real world. That kind of speed cannot be matched by the Vizier.

I'll post up a full write when I get up in the morning on Vizier and Wizard going at it head to head, but the gut feeling is that Path of the Crafter is a larger resource investment to the Vizier than it is for the Wizard, who will be able to do it better.

[Taveena]

WHILE WE'RE ERRATAING THE DARK LORD'S RING OF ESSENCE BINDING...

Plague Zombie isn't a template, and as such cannot be applied to the Cairn Wight. It'd be pretty damn easy for a DM to rule that the Cairn Wight wouldn't get the Plague ability.

Further, due to how Zombie Rot works, it won't... ever get to do damage, dissipating harmlessly before the 24 to 96 hour onset period has time to tick over. And even if somehow it DOES do damage (say, you roll the 1d4 days and it ticks damage once before fading, or your DM rules that it's one day after the onset ends)... it's going to do 1d2 con damage and then just. Disappear.

1d2 con damage after 24 hours minimum isn't going to do anything.
Nevermind the only people who might be AFFECTED by the disease who matter to the PCs after a combat ends are... the PCs, too close to the zombie when it died and exploded.

It'd require them to be on 1 con to reliably get any zombies. This is going to be VERY HARD, because even a 1st level Commoner with 10 con is going to take about 14 infections over two weeks to become a zombie.

Long story short, the Plague upgrade, aside from not working at all with the Cairn Wight, is borderline impossible to make ANY use of.

EDIT: I've reread and it turns out I was wrong due to the 'dying while infected' clause. You could in theory get quite an army of Plague Zombies this way.

And by army I mean 'uncontrolled shambling horde that just eats people'.

It's a good way to, uh.

Create encounters for other adventuring parties?

I'm not sure what the Plague Zombie template is meant to do here.

EDIT 2: You know the real problem here is that if you DO use the logical method to create zombies with this - smack them till they fail, then kill them - you now have a zombie that's not loyal to you at all. So you're going to be going to a LOT of effort to try to safely create this, because your zombie has to wade in and smack them, THEN you have to snipe them, and the end result is a kind of crappy 2 HD mook.

EDIT 3: Also the Cairn Wight, even with 8 essence and Tainted Chakra, is almost entirely useless in the lategame. It's very, very squishy and doesn't hit hard at all, and the inability to customize it at all (unlike an Animal Companion) makes it... really bad. We'll grab the Wolf, the most generic companion.
The Wight has 79 HP, hits once a turn at +14 for 2d6+12 with a DC 25 save against a negative level, has two feats locked in already, AC 27, and +14/+13/+16 saves.
The Wolf has 136 HP, hits twice a turn at +19/+14 for 1d8+12 with a trip attempt at DC 21, has eight choosable feats, AC 27, and +14/+14/+6 saves. This is NOT including the +4 to stats from advancing in HD.

This is also one of the weaker animal companions. A Spinosaurus has 3 attacks and a whopping 32 strength, and an Electric Eel can wind up with 48 more health. (Why is the Electric Eel amphibious? Paizo what.)

Wwwith... Greater Magic Weapon and Inspire Courage +5, that's... hitting on a 12 or higher. And the Balor only fails the save against the negative level on a nat 1.

Okay. Level 10! More likely to see play. DLRoEB has 4 points invested at most. So +5 profane bonuses. Wight has 54 HP, +10 for 2d6+8, DC 21 save, 10/9/12 saves.

Wolf has 60 HP, +13/+8 for 1d8+10, trip CMB +15, 10/9/4. It's a little fairer at this level. Maybe I should have started here.

Now. Level 5. Hooboy.

We've got 3 essence in this, so a +4 bonus. No Cairn Wight or Plague Zombie, though.
32 HP, +8 to hit for 1d6+8, constantly Staggered, 4/4/7, 16 AC

Wolf has 32 HP, +5 to hit for 1d6+3, +5 to trip, 6/7/2, 17 AC. It's pretty fair at this level, especially with standard-action charging being an option and the zombie's DR being harder to pierce.

Ultimately the Wight keeps up until around level 15 or so - I think it might need a bonus attack for hitting 6 essence (to keep up with the Animal Companion's multiattack), and SOME way to make up for its pitiful health in the endgame.

[Deadkitten]

Posting to update my opinion on the bind for the Cincture of the Dragon.

I now realize that having it work as Greater Stunning Barrier is just plain dumb, that would be too annoying of an ability.

However, I do believe that as it is written, it is on the weak side.
Currently its a standard action to maybe negate and stun a single enemy at level 12.

I'd suggest maybe changing the wording on it to be similar to the crusaders shield bind but make it a swift action instead.
That would give you a limited number of times per day that you could do it reasonably without getting out of hand.

[Ssalarn]

DLRE works best on multiclass Vizier/Necromancers currently, it's true. I'll ask you to wait for the Supplemental before we change /too/ much from the current course though, there's going to be more toys that will make things a bit more interesting (like the Plaguebringer Gauntlets and Crown of Inevitable Command).

[Milo v3]

Crown of Inevitable Command
This makes me think of a crown formed from cogs that lets you control Inevitables... but the context of "improving dark ring of essence binding" makes that rather unlikely... Disappointing.

[Taveena]

I. Added in some comparisons between the DLRE and a Druid's wolf animal companion. It's actually not too bad numbers-wise until later on, where the Wolf's multiattack and health leave it in the dust.

Of course the problem is the Wolf is terrible.

EDIT: ALSO I forgot the Wight is much harder to buff. No Animal Growth, no morale bonuses.

[master4sword]

WHILE WE'RE ERRATAING THE DARK LORD'S RING OF ESSENCE BINDING...

Plague Zombie isn't a template, and as such cannot be applied to the Cairn Wight. It'd be pretty damn easy for a DM to rule that the Cairn Wight wouldn't get the Plague ability.

Further, due to how Zombie Rot works, it won't... ever get to do damage, dissipating harmlessly before the 24 to 96 hour onset period has time to tick over. And even if somehow it DOES do damage (say, you roll the 1d4 days and it ticks damage once before fading, or your DM rules that it's one day after the onset ends)... it's going to do 1d2 con damage and then just. Disappear.

1d2 con damage after 24 hours minimum isn't going to do anything.
Nevermind the only people who might be AFFECTED by the disease who matter to the PCs after a combat ends are... the PCs, too close to the zombie when it died and exploded.

It'd require them to be on 1 con to reliably get any zombies. This is going to be VERY HARD, because even a 1st level Commoner with 10 con is going to take about 14 infections over two weeks to become a zombie.

Long story short, the Plague upgrade, aside from not working at all with the Cairn Wight, is borderline impossible to make ANY use of.

EDIT: I've reread and it turns out I was wrong due to the 'dying while infected' clause. You could in theory get quite an army of Plague Zombies this way.

And by army I mean 'uncontrolled shambling horde that just eats people'.

It's a good way to, uh.

Create encounters for other adventuring parties?

I'm not sure what the Plague Zombie template is meant to do here.

EDIT 2: You know the real problem here is that if you DO use the logical method to create zombies with this - smack them till they fail, then kill them - you now have a zombie that's not loyal to you at all. So you're going to be going to a LOT of effort to try to safely create this, because your zombie has to wade in and smack them, THEN you have to snipe them, and the end result is a kind of crappy 2 HD mook.

Not to mention that a plague zombie loses its DR, so that second point of essence is kinda painful to invest. Any chance we can make the plague zombie "upgrade" optional at 2 essence?

[Taveena]

The logical choice is to say that the zombie instead gains the Disease and Death Burst abilities of the Plague Zombie. This would avoid it losing DR and also allow it to apply to the Cairn Wight.

(Disease is still terrible, but at least now it's not making your zamboni WORSE!)

[Ssalarn]

The logical choice is to say that the zombie instead gains the Disease and Death Burst abilities of the Plague Zombie. This would avoid it losing DR and also allow it to apply to the Cairn Wight.

(Disease is still terrible, but at least now it's not making your zamboni WORSE!)

I think that's a perfectly workable solution. Consider it done.


I. Added in some comparisons between the DLRE and a Druid's wolf animal companion. It's actually not too bad numbers-wise until later on, where the Wolf's multiattack and health leave it in the dust.

Of course the problem is the Wolf is terrible.

EDIT: ALSO I forgot the Wight is much harder to buff. No Animal Growth, no morale bonuses.

Uhm, I seriously disagree about the wolf ever leaving the wight in the dust. 1st, the wight is intelligent (15 INT as soon as he becomes a wight) and doesn't require Handle Animal checks (something you cannot get around with animal companions in Pathfinder). Second, he gets a real weapon that can be enchanted as normal (way cheaper than an Amulet of Mighty Fists), which channels his energy drain ability, which should cap out with a DC around 28 (potentially higher). Hit points are basically equal, with the wolf maybe having a small edge thanks to his Con bonus, though the Cairn Wight more than makes up for this with a huge host of immunities. The wight will have about a 30 AC before you gear him up (10 base, +3 DEX, +6 natural armor, +10 essence, +1 for Tainted Chakra), to the wolf's 27 (10 base, +1 DEX, +16 natural armor), and it's easier to gear up the wight. The wight also has a better attack bonus and better saves (assuming dedicated investment when using it in combat).

[Taveena]

Fair enough. I assumed you'd use the default stats, which come with weapons and armor, which is apparently false!

However the Wolf can gain Int 3 by spending a stat increase into Int, which makes it intelligent and able to understand one language, and as a result Handle Animal checks are no longer required.

Anyway I did actually post some stat comparisons earlier.


The Wight has 79 HP, hits once a turn at +14 for 2d6+12 with a DC 25 save against a negative level, has two feats locked in already, AC 27, and +14/+13/+16 saves.
The Wolf has 136 HP, hits twice a turn at +19/+14 for 1d8+12 with a trip attempt at DC 21, has eight choosable feats, AC 27, and +14/+14/+6 saves. This is NOT including the +4 to stats from advancing in HD.

This is with the default weapons and armor. As the SRD says on Undead
"Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor." So it's only proficient with Light Armor, Shields (a decent investment here, I suppose), Longswords, and Simple Weapons.

The Cairn Wight has, unless I'm mistaken, its 34 base HP, +40 from 8 essence invested. Compared to the wolf, which has 16d8+48 minimum, the Wolf comes away a fair bit ahead.

Please see my earlier post for a comparison at levels 20, 10, and 5.

EDIT: Also a note that Shield Slam in combination with the Justice Daevic's vital strike ability on a Shield Slam allows infinite Shield Slams until you fail the CMB roll.

EDIT 2: The reason Handle Animal is required normally is because convincing an animal to perform a trick requires a Handle Animal roll. At int 3 or higher, it no longer needs tricks and simply understands you. There might be a ruling in PF that overrides the ability to just tell your pet what to do as a normal free action, but I'm not aware of it - if you are, then my apologies for being uninformed.

[Ssalarn]

However the Wolf can gain Int 3 by spending a stat increase into Int, which makes it intelligent and able to understand one language, and as a result Handle Animal checks are no longer required.
EDIT 2: The reason Handle Animal is required normally is because convincing an animal to perform a trick requires a Handle Animal roll. At int 3 or higher, it no longer needs tricks and simply understands you. There might be a ruling in PF that overrides the ability to just tell your pet what to do as a normal free action, but I'm not aware of it - if you are, then my apologies for being uninformed.

This isn't actually true in Pathfinder.


Smart Kitty: If you have increased your animal companion's intelligence score to 3 using various means, then great! You can now have your companion learn any feat it can physically perform, and it can put ranks into any skill. What this increase does not accomplish, however, is any advantage in commanding your companion whatsoever. It's still the same DC 10 to handle and DC 25 to push. It may still only learn six tricks plus your druid bonus tricks. However, for every point of Intelligence it gains above 2, that is three more tricks it can learn. A smart animal will have more versatility without needing to rely on pushing. (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lejb?Animals-and-Their-Tricks)

Also, the cairn wight is described as using "a sword" not a longsword; so it's technically proficient with any weapon that matches that description (the cairn wight in Lords of the Night uses a greatsword, I believe).
So you've got the wolf with his 120 hit points compared to the wight with his 78 - 98 hit points, but the wight will also have superior defenses, a host of immunities, and every swing he connects with sucks a level off of his opponent with a very high DC, lowering their ability to attack and defend and feeding the wight with temporary hit points. The wight is a much more effective and efficient murder machine against anything not immune to energy drain, and still competitive even when it can't leverage its energy drain to full effect. The only situation where the wolf's higher base hit points are relevant is if they're facing a creature capable of dropping the wight in a single hit; fortunately, if that happens the vizier can just grab another corpse, while the druid has to perform a 24 ceremony in an appropriate environment to replace his wolf.

[NineThePuma]

Also, the cairn wight is described as using "a sword" not a longsword; so it's technically proficient with any weapon that matches that description (the cairn wight in Lords of the Night uses a greatsword, I believe).

The default Cairn Wight statblock uses a Longsword. I think that it would be safe to assume that the Cairn Wight has proficiency with a single martial weapon, rather than "any weapon in the heavy blades and light blades weapon groups" but it might be worth while to note that Cairn Wights created through the relevant ability have martial weapon proficiency with one weapon type.

[Kaidinah]

Also, if the Wight is destroyed, the character can reallocate essence elsewhere until the replacement Wight is found. If a Vizier, they could even put a new veil in place. The Wight is worth less resources to a veilweaver than an animal companion is to another character.

[Ssalarn]

The default Cairn Wight statblock uses a Longsword. I think that it would be safe to assume that the Cairn Wight has proficiency with a single martial weapon, rather than "any weapon in the heavy blades and light blades weapon groups" but it might be worth while to note that Cairn Wights created through the relevant ability have martial weapon proficiency with one weapon type.

There is no default cairn wight stat block; I assume you're referring to the user created content at d20pfsrd, which is not publisher source material. The only official cairn wight from a recognized publisher is shown wielding a greatsword (the Barrow King from the Harrowing module), which he channels his energy drain through. I'd agree that the intent is that he's proficient with one martial weapon of the creator's choice though. I can note that the zombie gains specific proficiencies when it becomes a cairn wight directly in the veil if that would clear things up.

[NineThePuma]

I can note that the zombie gains specific proficiencies when it becomes a cairn wight directly in the veil if that would clear things up.

It is better to be clear rather than have things be inferred.

[Ssalarn]

It is better to be clear rather than have things be inferred.

Agreed. I'll update the veil to specifically note what proficiencies the transformation to cairn wight confers and add it to the errata.

[soulsabre345]

Effectively reposting these questions again because I'd really like a opinion on these. The crusaders shield one especially has come up in a group I'm in and we had no idea how to specifically adjudicate it, so I'd really like some input on what happens from those who are more knowledgeable on the veils than I am.



I have a couple questions about the Crusader's Shield veil. First though, I do love the veil and the options it enables, but it doesn't say what happens when the shield breaks from damage, and if you use it in a space too small for it. So, my questions are;
1. If the shield is destroyed, does the extra damage from that attack go anywhere? (shield has 20 hp, gets hit for 40, does the extra 20 damage hit the user?)
2. If the shield is blocking off a passage, but is destroyed by a burst effect, does the attack proceed past the user or is it halted by the shield? What about a spread effect?
3. If using the shield in a area too small for it (5' high and wide passageway, and you use the basic version which covers a 10' square), does it just fill the area as much as it can, or does it need to be created in a area large enough for it?
4. If there are two veilweavers using the shield, what happens if the shields intersect? (such as two veilweavers side by side and placing it at a 45 degree angle to their sides, making it cross in a x in front and between them)

I also have another set of questions on the Shared Veil feat. How does Shared Veil work when your companion isn't a summon? It's fairly clear how it works if your sharing it once to a companion that isn't going to be there for several days. It's much less clear on if your companion is permanent. Namely;
5. If a Daevic has a Paramour, how often can he share a veil to a Paramour?
6. Can the veil being shared change within the same day?
7. If the veil shared can't be changed within the same day, what happens if say a Vizier has a familiar and veilshifts the veil he's sharing into something else. Can he pick a new veil to share, or does he now have to share the veil he replaced?
8. How do veils with limited uses per day interact with shared veil? As in, if you summoned a zombie with the Dark Lords Ring of Essence Binding , and shared immaculate touch with them and had them heal a party member, what's stopping you from animating a different zombie and doing it again?

[Taveena]

Whoo. Sorry for all my misinformation. In general, yeah, seems a bit better balanced, though I'm still not sure even with those immunities it quite makes up for the relatively tiny healthpool.

[Ssalarn]

Effectively reposting these questions again because I'd really like a opinion on these. The crusaders shield one especially has come up in a group I'm in and we had no idea how to specifically adjudicate it, so I'd really like some input on what happens from those who are more knowledgeable on the veils than I am.

1) Since the wall intercepts attacks, I have any excess damage carry on to the original target, whether that's the veilweaver or an ally. Treating it that the attack has been intercepted and excess damage wouldn't go anywhere any more than excess damage on a standard sunder attempt would is a legit way to read it too though.

2) See 1. I'd have the diminished effect carry on, but "blocked is blocked" is a fair interpretation that's probably easier to run.

3) It fills up as much as it can, up to the space available and its maximum area.

4) The shields cannot penetrate each other, so they'd both end at the point of intersection.

5) Whenever he shapes his veils he can share one with his Paramour.

6) Only if you have the time, or ability to reshape the original shared veil, like a Vizier’s veilshifting.

7) If the Vizier veilshifts a shared veil, the companion's shared, or "echo", veil is shifted as well.

8) They're a per character / day limitation. If you and your companion exhaust your uses of Immaculate Touch and veilshift, you don't get a new refresh of Immaculate Touch, you're going back to a veil whose daily potential is already spent on those people. If you swap the shared veil to a different companion, it's still the same shared veil with the same limitations.


Whoo. Sorry for all my misinformation. In general, yeah, seems a bit better balanced, though I'm still not sure even with those immunities it quite makes up for the relatively tiny healthpool.

Remember that he's also gaining 5 temp hp every round it inflicts energy drain (which should be most rounds), so he's got a constantly replenishing pool of extra hit points that isn't printed in the box. If he goes 5 rounds in an entire day of adventuring where he takes and deals damage, he's tied with the wolf for hp. If he goes one more round, he pulls ahead, and every round after that he pulls farther. There's also the virtual hit points of the damage he doesn't take thanks to higher saves, higher AC, and a built in debuffer that makes it harder for enemies he hits to hit him back. That's harder to quantify since it varies from day to day, but it's not insubstantial. Like I mentioned before, it really only matters if an attack would consistently drop the wight in one round but leave the wolf standing (unlikely since the wight will be harder to hit, so the math actually swings in his favor).

The wolf is probably better if you're dealing with enemies with firearms, so there's that.

[Milo v3]

Would you retain the benefits of veils that are passive while in a polymorph effect in the same way you retain magic item benefits that are passive?

[Ssalarn]

Would you retain the benefits of veils that are passive while in a polymorph effect in the same way you retain magic item benefits that are passive?

Unless the veil benefit happens to be a polymorph effect, yes.

[Milo v3]

Unless the veil benefit happens to be a polymorph effect, yes.

Great, was playtesting the deo races and I realised I hadn't even checked if veils and it's change shape abilities even work together...

[Taveena]

Remember that he's also gaining 5 temp hp every round it inflicts energy drain (which should be most rounds), so he's got a constantly replenishing pool of extra hit points that isn't printed in the box. If he goes 5 rounds in an entire day of adventuring where he takes and deals damage, he's tied with the wolf for hp. If he goes one more round, he pulls ahead, and every round after that he pulls farther. There's also the virtual hit points of the damage he doesn't take thanks to higher saves, higher AC, and a built in debuffer that makes it harder for enemies he hits to hit him back. That's harder to quantify since it varies from day to day, but it's not insubstantial. Like I mentioned before, it really only matters if an attack would consistently drop the wight in one round but leave the wolf standing (unlikely since the wight will be harder to hit, so the math actually swings in his favor).

The wolf is probably better if you're dealing with enemies with firearms, so there's that.

All checks out, really. Totally missed Energy Drain granting temp HP, and at this point I'm fairly satisfied that my friend's necro-vizier won't feel useless!
Thoughts on the Cairn Wight losing the (arguably more reliable) DR of the Zombie?

[Milo v3]

Any chance of there being an Akashic Mysteries compatibility graphic on the Dreamscarred Press website once it is out?

[Ssalarn]

Any chance of there being an Akashic Mysteries compatibility graphic on the Dreamscarred Press website once it is out?

I certainly hope so....


All checks out, really. Totally missed Energy Drain granting temp HP, and at this point I'm fairly satisfied that my friend's necro-vizier won't feel useless!
Thoughts on the Cairn Wight losing the (arguably more reliable) DR of the Zombie?

Honestly, while I don't think it would be OP or anything for the wight to keep the zombie's DR, I don't think it's strictly necessary either. The wight has a lot of advantages that the zombie just doesn't, including the ability to move and attack in the same round (with an attack that is way better than what the zombie gets).

[stack]

So, items, are they going in an official doc soon?

[AGrinningCat]

More importantly, for me at least, item pricings? At neat little chart for how much Akashic abilities cost?

[Ssalarn]

So, items, are they going in an official doc soon?


Yes.

Speaking of, let me know what you think of this:

Essence Forged: Essence forged weapons are designed as training tools for users of akasha. The unusual nature of essence forged weapons prevents them from being enchanted normally and a weapon must be created as an essence forged weapon as part of the crafting process, transforming them into essence receptacles that use their wielder’s power to determine their abilities. Essence forged weapons are always of masterwork quality, and gain an enhancement bonus to attack and damage equal to the amount of essence invested in them (maximum +5). Essence forged weapons are also prebuilt with a set of weapon special abilities that can be activated by wielders who have learned how to bind essence to specific slots. When an essence forged item is created, choose 3 weapon special abilities (such as flaming, frost, or speed), whose combined total does not exceed a +5 enhancement bonus. A wielder capable of binding to the hands slot may access up to +1 enhancement bonus' worth of these abilities, a wielder capable of binding to the wrists slot may access up to +3, and a character capable of binding to the shoulders slot may access up to +5. The weapon must have an amount of essence invested equal to the total enhancement bonus of any accessed abilities for those to be used (for example, an akashic warrior able to bind to his shoulders slot and wielding an essence forged weapon with the speed property would need to have at least 3 points of essence invested). Each time the wielder reassigns essence to the weapon, he may change which of the available weapon properties are active.

Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor; Price 3000 gp


It's kind of like a weapon property that creates a weapon of legacy for akasha users.

[stack]

Hmm, interesting. The hard part will be scrounging that much essence on a weapon-based character. Akasin guru's should love it (unless getting a weapon from a veil). No clue how to price something like that.

[PsyBomb]

Yes.

Speaking of, let me know what you think of this:

Essence Forged: Essence forged weapons are designed as training tools for users of akasha. The unusual nature of essence forged weapons prevents them from being enchanted normally and a weapon must be created as an essence forged weapon as part of the crafting process, transforming them into essence receptacles that use their wielder’s power to determine their abilities. Essence forged weapons are always of masterwork quality, and gain an enhancement bonus to attack and damage equal to the amount of essence invested in them (maximum +5). Essence forged weapons are also prebuilt with a set of weapon special abilities that can be activated by wielders who have learned how to bind essence to specific slots. When an essence forged item is created, choose 3 weapon special abilities (such as flaming, frost, or speed), whose combined total does not exceed a +5 enhancement bonus. A wielder capable of binding to the hands slot may access up to +1 enhancement bonus' worth of these abilities, a wielder capable of binding to the wrists slot may access up to +3, and a character capable of binding to the shoulders slot may access up to +5. The weapon must have an amount of essence invested equal to the total enhancement bonus of any accessed abilities for those to be used (for example, an akashic warrior able to bind to his shoulders slot and wielding an essence forged weapon with the speed property would need to have at least 3 points of essence invested). Each time the wielder reassigns essence to the weapon, he may change which of the available weapon properties are active.

Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor; Price 3000 gp


It's kind of like a weapon property that creates a weapon of legacy for akasha users.

Hrm. 3000gp is comically cheap for a potentially +10 weapon if I'm reading it right. Ten times that would still be cheap, my Nunchaku TWF Vayist would buy two and never look back at 30k. Love the concept, the balance just needs work.

[Ssalarn]

Hmm, interesting. The hard part will be scrounging that much essence on a weapon-based character. Akasin guru's should love it (unless getting a weapon from a veil). No clue how to price something like that.

Yeah, I threw in 3000 gp as kind of a placeholder price; it should be more expensive than a simple +1 enhancement, but at the same time it's nothing but a masterwork weapon in the hands of anyone who can't use akasha, and a regular character who gained an essence pool through feats would never be able to use it as more than a simple +4 weapon. 3000 gp is kind of a ridiculous steal for the right character though...
Note that the special abilities don't actually require you to bind the weapon; they just require you to be able to bind in that slot (as kind of a representation of your skill in the martial uses of akasha).

[AGrinningCat]

Phone posting here.

Why not have a maximum investment limit to help scale pricing? Would help with balance.

[Ssalarn]

Phone posting here.

Why not have a maximum investment limit to help scale pricing? Would help with balance.

Not a bad idea. I'm also out and about right now, but I'm going to check the pricing on other DSP legacy weapons and then see if there's an easy way to extrapolate a price from there. If not, your idea of breaking it up into investment limits will probably be what I go with.

[AGrinningCat]

Whoa slow down; there are other DSP legacy weapons?

If you're looking for a price, I'd point at normal weapon enhancements and the little blurb in the item creation section that allows you to take 10% or 30% off the cost due to needing a skill use or needing to be a class or alignment, respecitvely.

[Ssalarn]

Whoa slow down; there are other DSP legacy weapons?


Yeah, like the Tempest's Blade from Ultimate Psionics. Turns out since it uses the Legendary item rules there's no listed price though....

What if we did it a little like composite longbows, where you've got a base essence capacity of 1 (1800 gp), and you can increase the essence capacity by an additional 1 by paying 1000 gp x new capacity for each upgrade (so upgrading from 1 - 5 would actually cost 16,000 gp)? I'd still probably want the abilities preset though, so you don't end up with a situation where most players can only ever afford to add 5 +1 special abilities if they upgrade the weapon one capacity at a time.

**EDIT**
Was running the numbers on that, realized the formula is still way too cheap. Hmmm.... I'd prefer a simpler way to do this than having +1 - +5 versions of the weapon, since the scaling is already built into the system and requires investment of class resources. They may be a simple flat cost item that's super beneficial if you happen to be a primary veilweaver who's starting the game at a higher level.

[AGrinningCat]

Capacity 1: 1800 gp
Capacity 2: 3800 gp
Capacity 3: 6800 gp
Capacity 4: 10,800 gp
Capacity 5: 15,800 gp

Going by Wealth by level, a character could barely afford that by 6th level (5th level if crafting), but by 9-10ish (When shoulder binds come online), it's about 25% of your WBL.

Unless you take a feat to allow you to increase your Magic item essence capacity(By the way, Does the enhanced capacity feat affect all magic items or just one?), you investment would look like this:

6th level
2 Capacity(Can only invest 1 due to binds)
+1 weapon, with up to +1 bonus
Paid 1800gp ,8000gp worth

10th level
2 Capacity (Can invest 5)
+2 Weapon, with up to +2 bonus
Paid 3800gp, 32,000gp worth

12th level
3 Capcity
+3 Weapon, with up to +3 bonus
6,800gp, with 72,000gp worth

The numbers get steadily more silly from there, doubly so with Enhanced Capacity veil.
Two odd notes: The Guru goes from Hands to Shoulders and skips wrists all together, and the Pharaoh can't get access to it either without feats.

How about a price reduction instead? Following the Magic Weapons table and taking 30% off the price, we get..


Weapon Bonus
Base Price


+1
1400


+2
5600


+3
12600


+4
22400


+5
35000


+6
50400


+7
68600


+8
89600


+9
113400


+10
140000



Following this, Essence capacity of a weapon could be it's total weapon bonus divided by 2, and each essence would grant you a +2 investment bonus to split up how you like. Cheaper than normal weapons, still follows (mostly) the same rules, and you don't have any weirdness where a 12th level character can get 128,000gp weapon for 6,800gp + extra capacity feat.

Edit: Beaten by an edit while I was making the table look pretty!

[stack]

The problem is it isn't a +10 weapon that is limited to a few classes. It is instead a weapon fueled by a limited resource that can act as a +10 weapon. Fueling it with 5 essence is a huge expenditure of resources, especially for a daevic but still major for a non-akasin guru. Vizier's care less, but even for a weapon-using vizier it is a decent chunk. Imagine if a cleric was fueling their weapon with 9nth level spells?

Really, pricing doesn't match up to any existing item I am aware of. I could see it working as a feat or class feature.

[Kaidinah]

I don't mind a cheaper cost. A daevic expends half their essence getting this weapon up to full power. 5 essence is a lot.

[AGrinningCat]

I guess the question of the hour then, is how much is 1 essence worth?

A trait is worth about 50% of a feat. (Improved initiative feat vs Reactionary trait)
Extra essence feat grants 2 Essence.
Therefore, we can assume that 1 Essence = 1 Trait.

A cracked Dusty Rose Ioun stone is 500gp, for a +1 initiative.
We know that slotless items (Such as Ioun Stones) are 2x the normal cost.
We also know that item bonuses follow the formula of Bonus² x Cost.
Determining this, a +1 Initiative would cost Bonus x 250gp.
An initiative Trait is +2 to initiative, therefore following the above formula it'd be 2² x 250 or 1000gp GP.

Thus, with 2 Initiative = Trait = 1/2 feat = 1 Essence, we can determine that the formula for an Essence would be Bonus²x1000gp

For a +5 Essence investment, you're looking at 5² x 1000gp or 25,000gp+Enhanced capacity feat. Going by that math you're getting a steal.

Although my math is probably wrong. Might try to price it here using the feat granting ioun stone instead. Hold on...

Edit:

Feat is worth 10,000gp on an ioun stone(Alertness, Endurance, Weapon proficiency)
Extra Essence is 2 Essence. We can assume that 1/2 feat is 1/2 the gold.
5000gp / Slotless essence, or 2500gp for a single essence.
Bonus² x 2500gp or 62,500gp for 5 essence.

Considering that cost, it's more expensive to get a +10 sword since you have to spend the feat on it.
If Essence was Bonus² x 2000gp, then it's 50000 + feat, meaning that the sword would cost you a grand total of 190,000gp + feat, which is damn near dead center for an actual +10 weapon.

[Ssalarn]

The problem is it isn't a +10 weapon that is limited to a few classes. It is instead a weapon fueled by a limited resource that can act as a +10 weapon. Fueling it with 5 essence is a huge expenditure of resources, especially for a daevic but still major for a non-akasin guru. Vizier's care less, but even for a weapon-using vizier it is a decent chunk. Imagine if a cleric was fueling their weapon with 9nth level spells?

Really, pricing doesn't match up to any existing item I am aware of. I could see it working as a feat or class feature.


Yeah, that's the odd bit; an essence pool is a class feature, one that can also be created with feats. You're not really paying for a +X weapon, you're paying for the ability to convert your existing resources into weapon enhancements. As Stack notes, a Guru using a fully invested essence forged is dedicating around a quarter of his primary resource to it; that'd be like a cleric giving up two or more spell slots per level to use a magic mace. Hmmm...

It's almost more like a wondrous item in that way. You're not getting a ridiculously cheap magic weapon, you're getting a new option for utilizing your existing resources, making an essence forged weapon more similar to a Fighter's Gloves of Dueling.

I'd like to keep this weapon ability as is, since I think it brings some cool things to the game and provides a way to get "legacy weapons" that aren't crazy powerful or require a huge back story all their own. That being said, I also get where people are coming from when they say this is more like a class feature than a weapon special ability, and maybe it just doesn't belong in this part of the game and would be better suited as, for example, an Akashic Warrior ability.

What does everyone think? I'd honestly prefer to keep them basically as is, with maybe a few tweaks to the pricing. I like the idea of an AkWar getting to pick up an essence forged weapon fairly early on, and then as his akashic abilities get stronger the weapon does as well. We're still talking about basically anyone who's not a Daevic or Vizier having to spend 1-3 feats to unlock the weapon special abilities and actually hit the +5/10 cap, and even they are having to wait to accrue sufficiently large essence pools and hit high enough levels to have the full capacity.



***
For a +5 Essence investment, you're looking at 5² x 1000gp or 25,000gp+Enhanced capacity feat. Going by that math you're getting a steal.
***
Feat is worth 10,000gp on an ioun stone(Alertness, Endurance, Weapon proficiency)
Extra Essence is 2 Essence. We can assume that 1/2 feat is 1/2 the gold.
5000gp / Slotless essence, or 2500gp for a single essence.
Bonus² x 2500gp or 62,500gp for 5 essence.

Considering that cost, it's more expensive to get a +10 sword since you have to spend the feat on it.
If Essence was Bonus² x 2000gp, then it's 50000 + feat, meaning that the sword would cost you a grand total of 190,000gp + feat.



I think the issue I have with those formulas, is that the weapon isn't giving you essence, it is actively costing you essence to gain its abilities. The 190,000 + a feat isn't giving you more essence, it's allowing you to spend essence you already have in a different way, at the cost of not having that essence available to spend on your other abilities. Considering a normal +10 weapon is 200,000 gp, that means you're actually getting royally boned and would have been better off with a normal magic weapon.

If it helps the conversation any, here's another magic item that serves as an essence receptacle:

Suqur’s Gift
Aura: Moderate Transmutation; CL 8th; Weight -
Slot: none Price: 18,000 gp
Suqur’s gifts are specially enchanted feathers freely given from a suqur to beings of non-flying races who do a great service for a suqur family or community. A creature holding a suqur’s gift given to him by a suqur is protected as though by a feather fall spell that activates immediately if the holder falls more than 5 feet. If the holder has an essence pool, he may invest essence into a suqur’s gift for additional benefits; if at least one point of essence is invested in the gift, the holder gains a fly speed of 10 feet with poor maneuverability. For each additional point of essence invested, the fly speed increases by 5 feet and the maneuverability improves by 1 step. If a suqur’s gift is stolen or sold, it becomes simply a normal feather until such time as it is returned to the person it was originally given to, or a suqur gifts it to a new individual.
Requirements: suqur race, Craft Wondrous Item, fly; Cost: 9,000 gp

The Suqur's Gift is actually priced at the same amount as a pair of Winged boots, and even has similar prereqs. The racial bit is mostly for flavor and story enhancement, the pricing I went with because without essence, the SG is notably weaker than the winged boots (more like a ring of feather falling) but with investment it can actually be a bit better. So it's definitely more expensive than its base ability would imply, but ultimately a cheaper investment if you have the character resources to bring out its full potential. That's where the rough price of 3k gp came from on the essence forged weapons, an attempt to bring the price above its base bonuses starting, but where the ultimate payout is a better investment over the life of a character.

[AGrinningCat]

Before I answer that question, is it possible to get Extra essence through magic items? That'll help determine my answer.

[Ssalarn]

Before I answer that question, is it possible to get Extra essence through magic items? That'll help determine my answer.

The closest thing is this:

Akashic Catalysts
Aura: Moderate Transmutation; CL 5th; Weight -
Slot: Varies Price: 4,000 gp (Least), 16,000 gp (Lesser), 36,000 gp (Greater)
Akashic catalysts are woven bands of gem studded cloth or metal inscribed with glowing mandalas. A veilweaver may wear the catalyst around either their hands, feet, head, headband, shoulders, wrist, neck, belt, or body to reinforce and fortify the power of invested essence within a veil shaped in that slot. If the veilweaver is capable of shaping a veil in the Ring slot, he may assign the bonus from a catalyst wrapped around his hands to one such veil. If a veilweaver invests essence in any veil formed on a chakra that is wrapped with an akashic catalyst, the essence invested in the veil may be treated as being higher for all mechanical effects (+1 least, +2 lesser, +3 greater), though this does not change the veilweaver's total essence pool. A character cannot wear more than one akashic catalyst of each type (least, lesser, and greater). Putting on or taking off a catalyst is a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item; Cost: 2,000 gp (Least), 8,000 gp (Lesser), 18,000 gp (Greater)

[Ilorin Lorati]

By RAW that seems to be able to make things go over the normal limit - seems a bit strong for such a cheap item.

[PsyBomb]

The closest thing is this:

Akashic Catalysts
Aura: Moderate Transmutation; CL 5th; Weight -
Slot: Varies Price: 4,000 gp (Least), 16,000 gp (Lesser), 36,000 gp (Greater)
Akashic catalysts are woven bands of gem studded cloth or metal inscribed with glowing mandalas. A veilweaver may wear the catalyst around either their hands, feet, head, headband, shoulders, wrist, neck, belt, or body to reinforce and fortify the power of invested essence within a veil shaped in that slot. If the veilweaver is capable of shaping a veil in the Ring slot, he may assign the bonus from a catalyst wrapped around his hands to one such veil. If a veilweaver invests essence in any veil formed on a chakra that is wrapped with an akashic catalyst, the essence invested in the veil may be treated as being higher for all mechanical effects (+1 least, +2 lesser, +3 greater), though this does not change the veilweaver's total essence pool. A character cannot wear more than one akashic catalyst of each type (least, lesser, and greater). Putting on or taking off a catalyst is a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item; Cost: 2,000 gp (Least), 8,000 gp (Lesser), 18,000 gp (Greater)

Interesting. May I request a means to key it to Blood as well, or does that present balance issues?

EDIT: Ilorin, it can pull a slot over the normal upper limit, but I know I've mathed it out. The effect is non-negligible, but not grossly overpowered. Even on the strongest output veils possible, even abusing crafting rules and language to stack all three for a +6 (which I see is no longer possible due to a wording change), it was barely within the realm of balanced. Without the abusive stunts, it's an important investment for Akashic characters but not overpowered.

[Ssalarn]

Slightly different subject, anyone want to make $20? It would be super helpful to me if someone was willing to go through all three class playtest docs, combine the veil tables and full lists into one master table and alphabetized entries for all the veils, and then highlight any veils that need to be updated with the errata discussed in Psybomb's guide thread. I can't find an easy way to knock this out in Google docs, and the Supplemental release needs one master table and section with all the veils from all three classes. Trying to do that manually while also getting actual design done is turning into a real pain in the ass.

Funds to be sent through PayPal upon receipt and approval of completed document. As there's a bit of a time crunch for me here, whoever gets something I'm willing to approve put together and in my hands first (PM me for my e-mail address) gets the cash. Doing it in a Google doc so I can copy/paste directly into the working doc is a plus.


***EDIT***

So just to be clear, the way that each playtest doc has a table of all the veils for that class organized by bind with my brief descriptions, and then all of the veils laid out alphabetically below? I want that, but with the table and the entries all organized with the complete list of veils for all classes.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Alright, I'll trust your math on this.

[AGrinningCat]

To answer your question, Ssalarn, I like the concept, but ultimately it comes down to price. If I can afford it + The Akashic Catalysts so that there's not a net loss to my overall essence pool and it's not more expensive than a +10 weapon combined, I'll probably grab it.


Slightly different subject, anyone want to make $20? It would be super helpful to me if someone was willing to go through all three class playtest docs, combine the veil tables and full lists into one master table and alphabetized entries for all the veils, and then highlight any veils that need to be updated with the errata discussed in Psybomb's guide thread. I can't find an easy way to knock this out in Google docs, and the Supplemental release needs one master table and section with all the veils from all three classes. Trying to do that manually while also getting actual design done is turning into a real pain in the ass.

Funds to be sent through PayPal upon receipt and approval of completed document. As there's a bit of a time crunch for me here, whoever gets something I'm willing to approve put together and in my hands first (PM me for my e-mail address) gets the cash. Doing it in a Google doc so I can copy/paste directly into the working doc is a plus.


***EDIT***

So just to be clear, the way that each playtest doc has a table of all the veils for that class organized by bind with my brief descriptions, and then all of the veils laid out alphabetically below? I want that, but with the table and the entries all organized with the complete list of veils for all classes.

I'll see what I can do.

[AGrinningCat]

I think the issue I have with those formulas, is that the weapon isn't giving you essence, it is actively costing you essence to gain its abilities. The 190,000 + a feat isn't giving you more essence, it's allowing you to spend essence you already have in a different way, at the cost of not having that essence available to spend on your other abilities. Considering a normal +10 weapon is 200,000 gp, that means you're actually getting royally boned and would have been better off with a normal magic weapon.

Right; The formulas were just figuring out how much an individual point of essence was worth to try to help determine the pricing of Essence forged.

A point of essence is worth roughly about Bonus² x 2500.
A feat is roughly about 5k.

If I'm getting a +5 enhancement bonus to my essence pool through a slotless item; that's worth (Using the above formula x2 for slotless), 100,000gp.
That means that getting a +10 weapon out of Essence Forge have to cost me 155,000gp or less for it to be worth picking up. (200k minus 10k(feat) minus 100,000gp(Essence)) as that's my 'investment cost' towards the weapon, so to speak. So a +10 weapon should be worth 90k, which is roughly a 55% reduction cost. Except that's wrong if we're using the above essence formula so I'm deleting a ton of math and moving onto this post:





Akashic Catalysts
Aura: Moderate Transmutation; CL 5th; Weight -
Slot: Varies Price: 4,000 gp (Least), 16,000 gp (Lesser), 36,000 gp (Greater)
Akashic catalysts are woven bands of gem studded cloth or metal inscribed with glowing mandalas. A veilweaver may wear the catalyst around either their hands, feet, head, headband, shoulders, wrist, neck, belt, or body to reinforce and fortify the power of invested essence within a veil shaped in that slot. If the veilweaver is capable of shaping a veil in the Ring slot, he may assign the bonus from a catalyst wrapped around his hands to one such veil. If a veilweaver invests essence in any veil formed on a chakra that is wrapped with an akashic catalyst, the essence invested in the veil may be treated as being higher for all mechanical effects (+1 least, +2 lesser, +3 greater), though this does not change the veilweaver's total essence pool. A character cannot wear more than one akashic catalyst of each type (least, lesser, and greater). Putting on or taking off a catalyst is a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item; Cost: 2,000 gp (Least), 8,000 gp (Lesser), 18,000 gp (Greater)

Considering this, it's a bit messy.
Since Essence is fluid, a +1 investment to a single veil can (weakly)be considered a +1 essence to your pool (For all things, minus the pool size itself). Due to the fact you can wear multiples, the price of essence looks something like...

2,000gp (+1)
8,000gp (+2)
10,000gp (+3 = +1, +2)
18,000gp (+3)
20,000gp (+4 = +3, +1)
26,000gp (+5 = +3, +2)
28,000gp (+6 = +3, +2, +1)

To a max cap of 6.
Thus, quick and dirty, I'll say that I'd want to see a +10 equivalent Essence forged cost roughly 200,000-(26,000x2)-(5000x2) for the full 'investment' of the items.

[Ssalarn]

Interesting. May I request a means to key it to Blood as well, or does that present balance issues?


Blood was... problematic. It's not like Blood veils are stronger than other veils, but the versatility of the slot made for some really weird results in playtesting when catalysts were allowed to apply to Blood, and it was a little harder to pick what to lock out (like for the Vizier, using the catalyst to amp his rings prevents him from amping his hands since the catalyst is already taking up his hands slot, which made it easy to predict what he was giving up and what he was gaining since the general purpose of veils in those slots is relatively predictable). There was also just the funky thematic weirdness of explaining why wrapping a catalyst around any particular part of your body buffed Blood. I'm still trying to work on something else that will serve that general purpose but fit the Daevic a bit better, like maybe a weapon property that feeds on the blood of your opponents making your own Blood veils stronger.

[PsyBomb]

Right; The formulas were just figuring out how much an individual point of essence was worth to try to help determine the pricing of Essence forged.

A point of essence is worth roughly about Bonus² x 2500.
A feat is roughly about 5k.

If I'm getting a +5 enhancement bonus to my essence pool through a slotless item; that's worth (Using the above formula x2 for slotless), 100,000gp.
That means that getting a +10 weapon out of Essence Forge have to cost me 155,000gp or less for it to be worth picking up. (200k minus 10k(feat) minus 100,000gp(Essence)) as that's my 'investment cost' towards the weapon, so to speak. So a +10 weapon should be worth 90k, which is roughly a 55% reduction cost. Except that's wrong if we're using the above essence formula so I'm deleting a ton of math and moving onto this post:





Considering this, it's a bit messy.
Since Essence is fluid, a +1 investment to a single veil can (weakly)be considered a +1 essence to your pool (For all things, minus the pool size itself). Due to the fact you can wear multiples, the price of essence looks something like...

2,000gp (+1)
8,000gp (+2)
10,000gp (+3 = +1, +2)
18,000gp (+3)
20,000gp (+4 = +3, +1)
26,000gp (+5 = +3, +2)
28,000gp (+6 = +3, +2, +1)

To a max cap of 6.
Thus, quick and dirty, I'll say that I'd want to see a +10 equivalent Essence forged cost roughly 200,000-(26,000x2)-(5000x2) for the full 'investment' of the items.

You have the handle on this, so I'll ask you for it and give my reasoning on the numbers:

Can you give the totals for expected price on +2, +6, and +10 weapons using this system? This would allow for three distinct price points for system comparison, at 1-3-5 investment cap, and give a potential low-version of the weapon for, say, a level-6 Justice Daevic to sink his teeth into.

The language would need a slight brush-up to account for it, but I can see it working out.

[Ssalarn]

Interesting. May I request a means to key it to Blood as well, or does that present balance issues?


What about something like this for Blood?

Blood Funnels
Aura: Moderate Necromancy; CL 5th; Weight -
Slot: see text; Price: 16,000 gp
These cruel bands of twisted metal are designed to be attached to a natural weapon capable of rending flesh, such as a claw, bite, or gore. Attaching a blood funnel requires the wearer to twist the band over the tearing end of his natural weapon and through the nearest bit of his own flesh, dealing 1 point of damage; this damage does not heal as long as the blood funnel is attached. Once attached, a blood funnel allows the wearer to drain his enemy’s blood and strengthen his own; whenever a character with a Blood veil shaped deals bleed damage with the natural attack his blood funnel is attached to, he treats the total amount of essence invested in his Blood veil as 1 higher for the next 3 rounds, even if that would raise the veil above its normal capacity. If the wearer scores a critical hit with that natural attack, he instead treats the Blood veil as having 3 additional points of essence invested. Multiple instances of the benefit from blood funnels do not stack, but instead overlap, with the most beneficial instance given priority (for example, a wearer who scored a critical hit with a bleeding attack in round 1 and a regular hit with a bleeding attack in round 2 would continue to use the larger benefit until that instance expired).
Requirements: must have an essence pool, Craft Wondrous Item; Cost: 8,000 gp

[PsyBomb]

What about something like this for Blood?

Blood Funnels
Aura: Moderate Necromancy; CL 5th; Weight -
Slot: see text; Price: 16,000 gp
These cruel bands of twisted metal are designed to be attached to a natural weapon capable of rending flesh, such as a claw, bite, or gore. Attaching a blood funnel requires the wearer to twist the band over the tearing end of his natural weapon and through the nearest bit of his own flesh, dealing 1 point of damage; this damage does not heal as long as the blood funnel is attached. Once attached, a blood funnel allows the wearer to drain his enemy’s blood and strengthen his own; whenever a character with a Blood veil shaped deals bleed damage with the natural attack his blood funnel is attached to, he treats the total amount of essence invested in his Blood veil as 1 higher for the next 3 rounds, even if that would raise the veil above its normal capacity. If the wearer scores a critical hit with that natural attack, he instead treats the Blood veil as having 3 additional points of essence invested. Multiple instances of the benefit from blood funnels do not stack, but instead overlap, with the most beneficial instance given priority (for example, a wearer who scored a critical hit with a bleeding attack in round 1 and a regular hit with a bleeding attack in round 2 would continue to use the larger benefit until that instance expired).
Requirements: must have an essence pool, Craft Wondrous Item; Cost: 8,000 gp

Hrm... MUCH more niche than the Catalyst, this only really works well for Wrath, and only if they're using the Bloody Shroud (which is typically a waste for them, since Bleeds don't stack). I wouldn't use it, personally. I'll look at the Blood veils more closely, in particular Daevic Essence, to see if it has a break point somewhere. Off-hand, I know that Infernal Blood and Heartsblood Caress wouldn't use it that much, the former since it is pure-retributive and the latter since its typical combat style is not really suitable for melee.

[stack]

Need to adjust items on my guru if those are the correct catalyst costs. No complaint, I think that is a good price point for catalysts.

I agree with Psybomb on the funnel.

[Ssalarn]

Thanks to AGrinningCat for knocking out combining the veil lists!

Stack & Psybomb -

I'll look at opening up the Blood funnels a bit, maybe allow them to be attached to weapon hilts or something so it works for more of the builds out there.

Stack -

I'm working on updating the Swarm Master with your changes as part of getting the Supplemental release prepped.

[AGrinningCat]

Thanks to AGrinningCat for knocking out combining the veil lists!

Stack & Psybomb -

I'll look at opening up the Blood funnels a bit, maybe allow them to be attached to weapon hilts or something so it works for more of the builds out there.

Stack -

I'm working on updating the Swarm Master with your changes as part of getting the Supplemental release prepped.

Don't forget Essence of the Succubus doesn't have short text. Sections highlighted in yellow need fixing (Either in short or long).

[AGrinningCat]

You have the handle on this, so I'll ask you for it and give my reasoning on the numbers:

Can you give the totals for expected price on +2, +6, and +10 weapons using this system? This would allow for three distinct price points for system comparison, at 1-3-5 investment cap, and give a potential low-version of the weapon for, say, a level-6 Justice Daevic to sink his teeth into.

The language would need a slight brush-up to account for it, but I can see it working out.

2,000gp (+1)
8,000gp (+2)
10,000gp (+3 = +1, +2)
18,000gp (+3)
20,000gp (+4 = +3, +1)
26,000gp (+5 = +3, +2)
28,000gp (+6 = +3, +2, +1)

Remember that slotless items cost double, so for the purposes of this calculation, we're doubling gp values for essence.
With Essence Forge as is, a +2 weapon would be 1 essence invested, a +6 would be 3 essence, and a +10 would be 5 essence + feat.

+2 weapon
8,000-(4,000) = 4,000gp
+6 weapon
72,000-(20,000) or -(36,000) = 52,000gp or 36,000gp, depending on how you price 3 essence. Later work shows that it should be using the +3 value instead of the +1, +2.
+10 weapon
200,000 -(52,000)-(10,000[feat]) = 138,000gp

Same idea, but using the essence formula "Essence = (typed)Bonus² x 2500gp" (Multiplied by 2 for slotless)
+2 Weapon
8000-(5,000)= 3,000gp
+6 Weapon
72000-(45,000) = 27,000gp
+10 Weapon
200,000-(125,000)-(10,000[feat]) = 65,000gp

"Essence = (typed)Bonus² x 2,000gp" (Multiplied by 2 for slotless)
+2
8000-(4000) = 4,000gp
+6
72000-(36000) = 36,000gp
+10
200,000-(100,000)-(10,000[feat]) = 90,000gp

[Ssalarn]

Don't forget Essence of the Succubus doesn't have short text. Sections highlighted in yellow need fixing (Either in short or long).

Yep, already on it, as well as integrating the new veils like Lashing Spinnerets, Wasp's Sting, Plaguebringer Gauntlets, Crown of Inevitable Command, Utterdark Shield, Loyal Paladin's Spear of Light, Frostbite Halo, Crimson Totem, and more!

Frostbite Halo and LP's Spear of Light were actually from the contest we had over in the GitP regulars as veils thread, and Utterdark Shield and Crimson Totem were also both originally presented by me in that thread.

[PsyBomb]

Yup, stack and I wrote Loyal Paladin's Spear of Light and Frostbite Halo to represent LoyalPalading and Snowbluff, respectively. I was rather proud of the Halo, gives a reason to potentially shape Polar Snowshoes.

Actually, that brings up an item question. You mentioned in the original post with the Akashic Catalysts way back when (HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18383869&postcount=437)) that there was a potential for the item to gain variations, such as changing the element of the Veil's energy damage. Is that still on the table? It matters a whole heck of a lot more now.

[AGrinningCat]

http://i.imgur.com/XBSiorM.png

The full costs, all things considered. Using Akashic Catalyst Essence cost is messy considering there isn't anything past +3, meaning that essence becomes weirdly cheaper as you go past 3 (To a cap of 6).

Is it the intention of the Akashic Catalysts to push a veil past it's capacity limit? If so, that'd change calculations considerably.

[Kaidinah]

I don't think calculating essence cost with feats is fair. Extra essence is worth more game balance wise because it can be moved around. Essence forged should be priced with the fact that its a destination, essentially a veil you can buy with gold.

[AGrinningCat]

I don't think calculating essence cost with feats is fair. Extra essence is worth more game balance wise because it can be moved around. Essence forged should be priced with the fact that its a destination, essentially a veil you can buy with gold.


Suqur’s Gift
Aura: Moderate Transmutation; CL 8th; Weight -
Slot: none Price: 18,000 gp
Suqur’s gifts are specially enchanted feathers freely given from a suqur to beings of non-flying races who do a great service for a suqur family or community. A creature holding a suqur’s gift given to him by a suqur is protected as though by a feather fall spell that activates immediately if the holder falls more than 5 feet. If the holder has an essence pool, he may invest essence into a suqur’s gift for additional benefits; if at least one point of essence is invested in the gift, the holder gains a fly speed of 10 feet with poor maneuverability. For each additional point of essence invested, the fly speed increases by 5 feet and the maneuverability improves by 1 step. If a suqur’s gift is stolen or sold, it becomes simply a normal feather until such time as it is returned to the person it was originally given to, or a suqur gifts it to a new individual.
Requirements: suqur race, Craft Wondrous Item, fly; Cost: 9,000 gp

Suruq's gift is a Slotless item that has a Continuous Featherfall that it bestows upon it's owner.

Featherfall, 1st level spell. Continuous is a 2000 gp multiplier
1x1x2000 = 2000gp, doubled for being slotless (4000gp). This is practically a ring of Feather Fall (2,200gp, but the math doesn't add up when you realize it's rounds/level and have to multiply by 4. Either way).

This leaves 14,000gp worth of gold for this Akashic Container. Let's look at fly.



The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet (or 40 feet if it wears medium or heavy armor, or if it carries a medium or heavy load). It can ascend at half speed and descend at double speed, and its maneuverability is good.


A ring of flight would cost you 5(CL)x3(Spell level)x2000 or 30,000gp. However, flight gives a better speed than Suqur's gift. With 4 essence invested into the gift, the flight becomes 30ft, 1/2 of fly's 60ft. Double it for a slotless item, and we have:

60,000gp Slotless flight 60ft (Ring of Fly)
14,000gp Slotless flight 25ft. (Suqur's Gift)

When we compare speeds, we get that Suqur's gift is roughly 41.667% of Ring of Flight, so logically that means that the gold price should match the same. So 41.667% of 60,000gp is..

25,000gp Slotless flight 25ft
14,000gp Slotless flight 25ft w/ essence.

So now we have a difference of 11,000gp.

The first essence you invest into Suqur's is worth twice as much as any other essence -- Therefore we can assume that the container itself is worth the price of 1 essence. With 5(4+container). Consider that we need to invest essence into this to work, we are *losing* a feature, which means that we would probably be getting a discount on the item. Hence, the 11,000gp Discount. Considering that we have '5' essence into the item for it to get to where it's at, we can say that 11,000 (The discount)/ 5 (4+ container) = how much each essence is worth in this case.

Which is roughly 2,200gp/per, or 2,200 for the container + 8,800 for the essence.

That's considering that it scales linearly, though. Bonuses typically scale exponentially, so instead we see something closer to:

Bonus² x Y = 11,000, Bonus here = Container + Essence, so
5² x Y = 11,000, and when doing the math we're gonna find that Y = 440

Now it's here I realized I ****ed up the math, so let me go back and fix that.

Edit to fix:
http://i.imgur.com/dcfh2Gl.jpg
Same idea, different numbers:
4000gp for Feather fall; 14,000gp for Flight. EXCEPT:

Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don't take up space on a character's body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities.
So! Assuming that Featherfall and flight are close enough for the GM to give it's approval, Featherfall, being the cheaper option here, would actually cost 3000gp, which means that the container + essence is worth 15,000gp

Same idea as before
60,000gp Slotless flight 60ft (Ring of Fly)
15,000gp Slotless flight 25ft. (Suqur's Gift)

25,000gp Slotless flight 25ft
15,000gp Slotless flight 25ft w/ essence.

So now we have a difference of 10,000gp.

Which changes our calculations to either 2,000gp for container + 2000gp per essence capacity OR 5² x Y = 10000
Which brings us to Capacity² x 400, with the caveat that Capacity > 1 (As you have to pay for the ability to invest, then each capacity (minimum 1) thereafter).

Pazio just throws darts at a board to determine item pricing. http://i.imgur.com/ErSwGpk.gif What I really need is a capacity formula.

Thinking about it, I think the best way to go about pricing Akashic items would be (Veil Cost + (Veil cost x Capacity²)) + Any other item effects. I might go back and try to work on that feather to see if I can't get a straight formula out of it, but I think I'll take a break from this for now.

Suqur's feather 'veil' cost would be roughly 600gp, which totals out to 10,200gp, assuming you can invest anymore than 4 essence into it.

Sorry, Suqur's feather 'Veil' cost would be roughly 15,000gp = Veil Cost + (Veil Cost x Capacity²) or in this case roughly about 900 + (900 x 4²) which is roughly 15,300gp.

[Ssalarn]

Pazio just throws darts at a board to determine item pricing. http://i.imgur.com/ErSwGpk.gif What I really need is a capacity formula.


It's closer to the truth than you might think; the first thing Paizo does when designing a new magic item is determine the cost of similar magic items and the appropriate level for the item to become available and then extrapolate cost from those factors. The formulas for cost are used as either a quick proof to make sure there isn't too much variance, or as a backup plan when they can't nail down an appropriate price. True story (and quickly evidenced by the items in books like Inner Sea Gods that don't have their roots in the more rigid design philosophies of the WotC era).

[stack]

So, I'm thinking a Solhofaat daevic focused on using the crimson totem would be pretty nasty. High AC (bad touch AC though), go wrath/justice for big hits with your beatstick, pump CON for an ocean of HP (22 con at level one if you can get an 18 to start with, so 16 starting HP, scaling nicely). Just need enough strength to carry your armor and grab power attack. Ranged combat may be an issue, but not much more than for most daevics.

Crimson totem needs to go on the passion list for wrath to really make it work though.

[stack]

Ssalarn - do you have firm plans for the Tatvayist and Vedist? I'm considering putting some thoughts down on paper, just wondered if it would all be duplicated effort.

[PsyBomb]

Ssalarn - do you have firm plans for the Tatvayist and Vedist? I'm considering putting some thoughts down on paper, just wondered if it would all be duplicated effort.

I will admit to curiosity here as well. Back burner on my list until Supplemental goes to PDF, though.

Speaking of, any chance at getting alternate favored class bonuses any time soon? I can write them if need be, but it will have a huge effect on the final ratings. As Blinkling proved, it can turn Red to Sky Blue.

[Ssalarn]

Tatvayist and Vedist are both sketched up and have gone through some in-house playtest, but I'm sitting on them until I've cleared some stuff out of the pipeline.

Amongst those things in the pipeline - Pharaoh is getting a massive overhaul. I've brought on some help for that project, but after a long talk with Lord_Gareth this weekend, I'm ripping Pharaoh, and particularly some of the ideas built into Empty Pyramid, apart. End result is going to have a lot in common with the current Pharaoh, but many of the mechanics are going to be heavily, heavily changed. We're dumping the various essence receptacle class features and replacing them with Sigils; the biggest difference here is that this is going to make each individual Pharaoh much more unique. Empty Pyramid is losing the whole "invest in maneuvers" thing, but don't worry, Empty Pyramid will still be an akashic discipline, and will feel like it; at the end of the day, investing in each maneuver is just too cumbersome and creates too many issues with allowing characters to pick up or trade out the discipline. Instead (and this change will affect other pieces of the Pharaoh, like his Bond), the Pharaoh is going to gain the ability to spontaneously create essence forged weapons out of akasha, and will be able to switch the type of weapon he's currently created any time he activates an akashic maneuver. I'm hoping this will make playing a Pharaoh feel a little bit like playing Noctis in Final Fantasy 15, but once the rewrite is complete, I'll let you draw your own associations and conclusions.

Supplemental is coming up quick, mostly just plugging in little things like the alternate FCBs. Speaking of... since half-elves and half-orcs can take the FCBs of either parent race (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9r7c), I'm thinking about not doing FCBs for them; they already get access to both the human and either orc or elf FCBs. Would that be particularly problematic for anyone?

Also, stack, I still haven't added your updated swarm master. Could I have you just pop me an e-mail real quick with just the swarm master in an attachment?

[stack]

Leaving out the extra bonuses makes sense.

I'll shoot the email when I get to my hotel, be a few hours.

[Milo v3]

I'd imagine the essence forging would work rather nicely with throwing weapons.

Though I do wonder, when you say sigils are you referring to the Mystic's Glyphs, Runes, and Sigils?

[Doomeye56]

Tatvayist and Vedist are both sketched up and have gone through some in-house playtest, but I'm sitting on them until I've cleared some stuff out of the pipeline.

Amongst those things in the pipeline - Pharaoh is getting a massive overhaul. I've brought on some help for that project, but after a long talk with Lord_Gareth this weekend, I'm ripping Pharaoh, and particularly some of the ideas built into Empty Pyramid, apart. End result is going to have a lot in common with the current Pharaoh, but many of the mechanics are going to be heavily, heavily changed. We're dumping the various essence receptacle class features and replacing them with Sigils; the biggest difference here is that this is going to make each individual Pharaoh much more unique. Empty Pyramid is losing the whole "invest in maneuvers" thing, but don't worry, Empty Pyramid will still be an akashic discipline, and will feel like it; at the end of the day, investing in each maneuver is just too cumbersome and creates too many issues with allowing characters to pick up or trade out the discipline. Instead (and this change will affect other pieces of the Pharaoh, like his Bond), the Pharaoh is going to gain the ability to spontaneously create essence forged weapons out of akasha, and will be able to switch the type of weapon he's currently created any time he activates an akashic maneuver. I'm hoping this will make playing a Pharaoh feel a little bit like playing Noctis in Final Fantasy 15, but once the rewrite is complete, I'll let you draw your own associations and conclusions.

Supplemental is coming up quick, mostly just plugging in little things like the alternate FCBs. Speaking of... since half-elves and half-orcs can take the FCBs of either parent race (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9r7c), I'm thinking about not doing FCBs for them; they already get access to both the human and either orc or elf FCBs. Would that be particularly problematic for anyone?

Also, stack, I still haven't added your updated swarm master. Could I have you just pop me an e-mail real quick with just the swarm master in an attachment?

Gotta say that all sounds real bloody close to the character I was already running as a Pharaoh, so SWEET.

[Ssalarn]

Though I do wonder, when you say sigils are you referring to the Mystic's Glyphs, Runes, and Sigils?
Ummm, no. I may be changing the name..... I kind of overlooked the Mystic already using that verbage.

[Milo v3]

Ummm, no. I may be changing the name..... I kind of overlooked the Mystic already using that verbage.

It's disappointing glyphs are used by mystic, there is no doubt that glyphs tie into the egyptian feel rather well.

[Ssalarn]

It's disappointing glyphs are used by mystic, there is no doubt that glyphs tie into the egyptian feel rather well.

We might just call them "heiroglyphs". Sure the word "glyph" is still there, but....

[PsyBomb]

I'm going to suggest a bit of a compromise with half-elf and half-orc, since many people won't be aware of the ruling. Just lift them from one of the parent races and call it a day on one or two, just to ensure that people who want to play them but don't know the ruling get it

[Vhaidara]

Ummm, no. I may be changing the name..... I kind of overlooked the Mystic already using that verbage.

It doesn't use it in the current incarnation (which is getting a lot of positive reviews). Glyph is the only word taken, so sigil is free for you to use.

[Kaidinah]

I'm going to suggest a bit of a compromise with half-elf and half-orc, since many people won't be aware of the ruling. Just lift them from one of the parent races and call it a day on one or two, just to ensure that people who want to play them but don't know the ruling get itAt that point, a sidebar informing people of the FAQ ruling would take less page space.

[PsyBomb]

At that point, a sidebar informing people of the FAQ ruling would take less page space.

This is a good point, one which I gladly concede

[NineThePuma]

Of course, then you run into the problem of Sigil being a fairly common fantasy term and my inner Guild Wars nerd will be disappointed if it doesn't resemble those :P

[Ilorin Lorati]

I'll riot if the Lady of Pain doesn't maze at least one person in your Book if Sigil shows up. :smalltongue:

[stack]

Email will have to wait until tomorrow, need sleep. Can't find the one I sent before?

[Ssalarn]

Email will have to wait until tomorrow, need sleep. Can't find the one I sent before?

I'll see if I can dig it up. I think it's lost amongst all your unsolicited submissions ;P


Of course, then you run into the problem of Sigil being a fairly common fantasy term and my inner Guild Wars nerd will be disappointed if it doesn't resemble those :P

I'm becoming increasingly attached to "heiroglyphs".

[Kaidinah]

I like heiroglyphs. Though didin't the Mystic ditch sigils?

[AGrinningCat]

I like heiroglyphs. Though didin't the Mystic ditch sigils?

Yup. Glyphs only now.

[Seerow]

Just a thought: Could you not use the Glyph terminology, and then use an ability formatting similar to Mystic Glyphs (ie invest an essence to activate it, Glyph has 4 tiers of abilities that unlock as you level)... just with your own set of glyphs.

Then you have a super easy archetype tie in between Pharoah and Mystic, where they can pick up the others' glyph set. So you could have an elementalist support style pharoah, or an egyptian themed whatever your pharoah glyphs are going to do Mystic.




I make this suggestion partly because I think it is cool, partly because you are working in DSP so something like this is actually potentially feasible, and partly just because I don't like the idea of having abilities called "Heiroglyphs".

[Rasma]

Just a thought: Could you not use the Glyph terminology

Lots of stuff has similar names
See Traits.

Also there is no reason to have the overlap when they probably function differently
And if they do function the same and have the overlap between each other why have the two distinct classes?
Really it should be two distinct sets of abilities even if they have smiler names who cares they belong to different classes that are designed to do different things with different tools.

[Seerow]

Lots of stuff has similar names
See Traits.

Also there is no reason to have the overlap when they probably function differently
And if they do function the same and have the overlap between each other why have the two distinct classes?
Really it should be two distinct sets of abilities even if they have smiler names who cares they belong to different classes that are designed to do different things with different tools.

If the abilities have the same name, people are going to expect at least some degree of overlap. That's the reason why Ssalarn is looking for a different ability name in the first place, because he understands that and wants to avoid confusion. My counterpoint though is instead of coming up with a new more awkward or less fitting name, or inviting that confusion, embrace it and give more support to a new subsystem that's already in the process of development rather than making something totally different wholecloth.

I'm not saying they have to be identical, or even serve the same role. In fact I expect the Pharaoh's glyphs to be more self-centered, and likely more offensively oriented; while the Mystic's are more support oriented, being used to provide offensive/defensive/utility buffs to the party. The Mystic powers their glyphs with animus, whereas I expect the Pharaoh's glyphs will be empowered by investing essence. We're still talking about very different abilities... but by simply adopting the same general formatting and progression, you can unify the concept in the fluff and minds of the players, and open up cool new crossover potential via archetypes. I personally think it is worth at least considering.

[Taveena]

I think that the Mystic's glyph system is a little bit too, uh... tied in with the class to really be adapted for the Pharaoh, to be totally honest. The old glyph system, sure, but the new streamlined one? Unlikely.

[Seerow]

I think that the Mystic's glyph system is a little bit too, uh... tied in with the class to really be adapted for the Pharaoh, to be totally honest. The old glyph system, sure, but the new streamlined one? Unlikely.

The streamlined glyph system is basically "Spend a resource as a move action to apply a glyph to an X allies within Y range. Affected allies gain effect A. At later levels gain effects B, C, and D, which stack with themselves".

The only thing about the core mechanic that is really Mystic Specific is that it costs animus to activate. If you instead made a Pharaoh's glyph requires investing 1 point of essence per effect granted, you have abilities that are thematically and mechanically similar. They are identifiable as the same thing, but used in a different way.

I could give clearer examples with a better idea of what glyphs(or sigils or heiroglyphs or whatever they end up being) are intended to accomplish for the class. But given what we know I don't think it would be a hard conversion, especially when so much is up in the air for a redesign at the moment anyway.

[DrunkenMists]

As Glyphs are a Form of Language.

How about Rune? or something along those lines. It's the same thing; just a different mythology.

I can also think of other such works I haven't seen used yet like:
Hoodoo, thaumaturgy, Black art, Horoscopy, Presage

I piticularly like Presage.
presage
[n. pres-ij; v. pres-ij, pri-seyj]
Spell Syllables
Synonyms Examples Word Origin
noun
1.
a presentiment or foreboding.
2.
something that portends or foreshadows a future event; an omen, prognostic, or warning indication.
3.
prophetic significance; augury.
4.
foresight; prescience.
5.
Archaic. a forecast or prediction.
verb (used with object), presaged, presaging.
6.
to have a presentiment of.
7.
to portend, foreshow, or foreshadow:
The incidents may presage war.
8.
to forecast; predict.
verb (used without object), presaged, presaging.
9.
to make a prediction.
10.
Archaic. to have a presentiment.

[Milo v3]

As Glyphs are a Form of Language.

How about Rune? or something along those lines. It's the same thing; just a different mythology.

It's for an egyptian themed book though.

[DrunkenMists]

It's for an egyptian themed book though.

Heka is a Egyptian god of magic.
Talismans saw alot of use in egyptian magics too.

Anyways; I was just tossing out ideas incase something might stick as being a worthy name. :smalltongue:


Hmm. The Class Your looking for a Name for their system is Pharaoh right?


They were seen as gods themselves; Divinity might be a option
Ritual was a pretty common sort of magic too; though it suggests something slower than I imagine the pharaoh class works with.
Implements. the Act of using a tool as a medium to the magic. (Egypt was known for that awesome wavy dagger used in ritual magics if I remember, tools were also a large part of mummification)

Hmm. That's All I can think off.


Instead (and this change will affect other pieces of the Pharaoh, like his Bond), the Pharaoh is going to gain the ability to spontaneously create essence forged weapons out of akasha, and will be able to switch the type of weapon he's currently created any time he activates an akashic maneuver.

Hmm. Talisman or Implement work well with the concept. More 'real or Tangible' sort of use of the Akashic type of magic.

[Doomeye56]

Mystic's glyphs were originally named Runes then changed to Glyphs with sub categories of runes and sigils. To just glyphs now

[Ssalarn]

Off topic a little bit here, but they finally let me see the completed Daevic iconic art, and I'm incredibly pleased with how it turned out. The fact that they've let me see it also means that the Daevic is going to be ready for release any day now!

We're getting really close to the finish line on this one, so once the Supplemental is finished, two things will be happening:

First, I'll be wrapping the Pharaoh. AGrinningCat is going to be my right-hand person for getting the Pharaoh completed and wrapped, and we should be able to get you something quality that's consistent with all of the updates and advancements that have been happening over on the Path of War side of things.

Second, there will be a couple month intermission while I step away from veils and essence and take care of the Dreamscarred Press Psitech release. Psionic mechs, psicrystals that serve as batteries and brains for Bao-Dur style omni-tools, psionic tech items along the lines of what you see in the Technology Guide, rules for converting PP to battery juice, and more.

After that.... Well, the performance of Akashic Mysteries will determine what's going on with me and DSP from that point forward. We could be looking at an AM:E with the Tatvayist, Vedist, and even more materials, or we could be running DSP's take on Shadow Magic. It's just going to kind of depend on sales, where my creativity is steering me, and what other things are happening in the world of Pathfinder at that point.

[Doomeye56]

I love the akashic stuff, incarnum was my thing back in the day but I am super stoked for psi tech stuff.

[Vhaidara]

Question: Will buying the book make us more like to get AM:E or Shadow Magic next? Because I want my Shadow Magic.
JK, I'm already subbed to akashic
Is Pharaoh going to go public for playtesting?

[Kaidinah]

Sounds like a plan! I look forward to seeing where this road takes you, and to buying future stuff with your name on it. Hopefully that Daevic iconic will show up on facebook soon.

[Ssalarn]

Question: Will buying the book make us more like to get AM:E or Shadow Magic next? Because I want my Shadow Magic.
JK, I'm already subbed to akashic
Is Pharaoh going to go public for playtesting?

Shadow Magic is actually just waiting a bit because the Pathfinder market has kind of seen a glut of Shadow Magic type things lately from various publishers. Ascension Games' "Path of Shadows" just got an amazing review from Endzeitgeist, so we're going to kind of hang back on that plan for a bit so we're not flooding a really narrow market and ultimately hurting our own sales. I suspect we're about 6 months out from rolling out the full shadow magic playtest no matter how things go with AM. Speaking of... definitely buy the book when it's available!!! I need to be selling things so I can afford to keep doing this, and not making sales really doesn't help anything ;P

[Vhaidara]

As you seem to have missed my white text, I already subbed to Akashic. That does mean I get the release when it comes out, right?

Also, curses. I was so ready to start posting hype gifs. But I don't have enough to last 6 months.

[Ssalarn]

As you seem to have missed my white text, I already subbed to Akashic. That does mean I get the release when it comes out, right?

Also, curses. I was so ready to start posting hype gifs. But I don't have enough to last 6 months.

Subscription gets you the 4 .pdfs (Vizier, Guru, Daevic, Supplemental) and the compiled release, also in .pdf format. When we do the print run, I believe it should be just like Path of War, where subscribers get the print version at a reduced price, but still have to purchase it separately.

Also, yes, Pharaoh will be re-released for playtesting in his new iteration before we slap a seal of approval on him and send him off for layout.

[Vhaidara]

Hm...I am actually quite tempted to get a hard copy. Need to wait to confirm my financial situation though.

[Milo v3]

First, I'll be wrapping the Pharaoh. AGrinningCat is going to be my right-hand person for getting the Pharaoh completed and wrapped, and we should be able to get you something quality that's consistent with all of the updates and advancements that have been happening over on the Path of War side of things.
Wrapped.


Second, there will be a couple month intermission while I step away from veils and essence and take care of the Dreamscarred Press Psitech release. Psionic mechs, psicrystals that serve as batteries and brains for Bao-Dur style omni-tools, psionic tech items along the lines of what you see in the Technology Guide, rules for converting PP to battery juice, and more.
Can't wait. Based on the first line, I assume the concept of akashic cybernetics was dropped?

[Extra Anchovies]

Is there a list of akashic magic items somewhere, or will those not be happening and/or not be available for playtest?

[stack]

Is there a list of akashic magic items somewhere, or will those not be happening and/or not be available for playtest?

I believe the are to be in the pending supplemental release.

[PsyBomb]

We've seen about 3-4 of them in the threads, but they haven't been consolidated into a document yet. Can't wait for it, some of those items are going to have serious effect on Akashic builds (in some cases, especially the ones just dipping in)

[Ssalarn]

Is there a list of akashic magic items somewhere, or will those not be happening and/or not be available for playtest?

They will be available for playtest shortly.

[Extra Anchovies]

Coward's Boots and Tauric Brace both say that they increase your "base speed". Does this increase only apply to base land speed, or does it apply to other base speeds such as a racial fly speed?

[PsyBomb]

Coward's Boots and Tauric Brace both say that they increase your "base speed". Does this increase only apply to base land speed, or does it apply to other base speeds such as a racial fly speed?

Been looking this one up. From what I can gather, it applies to your Land speed unless you don't have one (bit of a gray area if you don't, or if land speed is obviously a secondary mode of transportation, such as an Octopus). Other movement modes only increase if they key off of your land speed.

stack, mind shooting me the update to the Swarm Lord? I have a Dread guide up and want to make sure I have the latest on it.

[stack]

Been looking this one up. From what I can gather, it applies to your Land speed unless you don't have one (bit of a gray area if you don't, or if land speed is obviously a secondary mode of transportation, such as an Octopus). Other movement modes only increase if they key off of your land speed.

stack, mind shooting me the update to the Swarm Lord? I have a Dread guide up and want to make sure I have the latest on it.

I can, but I can't garuntee that the final version will be identical. I really should go through it again carefully, but work has been far too much to leave time for that.

[Ssalarn]

Coward's Boots and Tauric Brace both say that they increase your "base speed". Does this increase only apply to base land speed, or does it apply to other base speeds such as a racial fly speed?

This will be your base land speed, except in instances where the base movement mode assumed for the game varies, such as in Cerulean Seas where base speed refers to swim speed.

[Ssalarn]

What are everyone's thoughts on including the Black Templar PrC from Lords of the Night in the Supplemental release? Would you appreciate having access to it without needing a whole supplement on playing vampires (or maybe a look at what kind of materials are in LotN if you're on the fence about picking it up), or would it feel "recycled", and you'd prefer only original material?

[Extra Anchovies]

I don't know anything about the class beyond what it says in your post, but if it uses Akasha it would probably fit better in Akashic Mysteries than in Lords of the Night. If it doesn't use Akasha it should probably be in LotN.

[Ssalarn]

I don't know anything about the class beyond what it says in your post, but if it uses Akasha it would probably fit better in Akashic Mysteries than in Lords of the Night. If it doesn't use Akasha it should probably be in LotN.

The Black Templar is kind of the akashic answer to the Necrocarnate from Magic of Incarnum. Of course, the fact that they can drain essence from living creatures and a general evil theme is all the two really have in common. Black Templar is a 5 level PrC that gives you a touch attack that can drain essence from foes, and turn foes slain by it into undead under the Templar's control.

I asked Andreas and the other DSP team members the same question, and it looks like we'll be using it in Akashic Mysteries, with a sidebar noting that it originally appeared in Lords of the Night, hopefully creating a bridge between the two products for people who maybe only have exposure to one or the other. I'm adding it to the compiled supplemental now, which I'll be adding to the OP before day's end, regardless of whether or not it's finished. You guys deserve access to the toys, and I can continue to work and paste new materials in without withholding goodies.

[Deadkitten]

I'm adding it to the compiled supplemental now, which I'll be adding to the OP before day's end, regardless of whether or not it's finished. You guys deserve access to the toys, and I can continue to work and paste new materials in without withholding goodies.

OH MY GOD THANK YOU!!! In the campaign I'm in, my Daevic just hit level 8 and my party hasn't been able to spend their weath for the past 3 levels. This comes at a perfect time for me. We apparently have a mont h of downtime in between sessions for our characters in a huge metropolis as well so I will definitely get to try this stuff out!!!

IM SO EXCITED, THAT I JUST CAN'T HIDE IT!!

[NineThePuma]

What are everyone's thoughts on including the Black Templar PrC from Lords of the Night in the Supplemental release? Would you appreciate having access to it without needing a whole supplement on playing vampires (or maybe a look at what kind of materials are in LotN if you're on the fence about picking it up), or would it feel "recycled", and you'd prefer only original material?

Hey now. LotN isn't JUST a supplement for Vampires! There are significant portions of it that are completely unrelated to vampires! Like half the archetypes! A good chunk of feats.

The Alertness system can also be used for, like, cults and stuff.

[Seerow]

Hey now. LotN isn't JUST a supplement for Vampires! There are significant portions of it that are completely unrelated to vampires! Like half the archetypes! A good chunk of feats.

The Alertness system can also be used for, like, cults and stuff.

Well then they should have put that material in a non-vampire book.

I have no interest in ever so much as looking at LotN. The source material is simply nothing that interests me even a little bit, and I don't want to have to slog through all of that to get to the few things that may be of use to me. I am glad that we will be seeing the akashic prestige class show up in the actual akashic book (though it seems a little weird to me that the LotN Akashic Material is going to be published before the first Akashic book is officially finished, making it so the primary source on the resource system is reprinting material using that system from other books... I mean what? It's like if Heroes of Horror had a random prestige class in it using Incarnum despite coming out long before MoI).

[Vhaidara]

Um, didn't that happen with Bloodforge? Some of the races from that getting Racial FCB, which ended up being super broken because the way the Passion bind works changed?

[Lord_Gareth]

Well then they should have put that material in a non-vampire book.

I have no interest in ever so much as looking at LotN. The source material is simply nothing that interests me even a little bit, and I don't want to have to slog through all of that to get to the few things that may be of use to me. I am glad that we will be seeing the akashic prestige class show up in the actual akashic book (though it seems a little weird to me that the LotN Akashic Material is going to be published before the first Akashic book is officially finished, making it so the primary source on the resource system is reprinting material using that system from other books... I mean what? It's like if Heroes of Horror had a random prestige class in it using Incarnum despite coming out long before MoI).

Welcome to the world of third party publishing, I'm afraid. There's enough Akasha out for Templar to make sense.

Also you wound me, my friend. You wound me deep in my soul.

[Seerow]

Welcome to the world of third party publishing, I'm afraid. There's enough Akasha out for Templar to make sense.

Yeah not saying people won't be able to use it, just that it's a really weird place it got to.



Also you wound me, my friend. You wound me deep in my soul.

Because of the not liking Vampires thing? Sorry, but not sorry. :p

[Kaidinah]

I'd love to have Black Templar thrown into Akashic Mysteries. It really is a nice prestige class. I think that it would round out the Akashic Mysteries book nicely. Without it, its very hard to make a necromancer in AM. You get 1 veil that really works with undead. This prestige class would allow anyone to expand on their necromancer without having to buy 2 books.

[Ssalarn]

I'd love to have Black Templar thrown into Akashic Mysteries. It really is a nice prestige class. I think that it would round out the Akashic Mysteries book nicely. Without it, its very hard to make a necromancer in AM. You get 1 veil that really works with undead. This prestige class would allow anyone to expand on their necromancer without having to buy 2 books.

I've added the Black Templar to the Supplemental release :)

I'll be adding the Supplemental to the OP shortly.

[PsyBomb]

I've added the Black Templar to the Supplemental release :)

I'll be adding the Supplemental to the OP shortly.

*desire to know more intensifies*

[Milo v3]

*desire to know more intensifies*

^ This ^
Whitetext

[Kaidinah]

I am so excited for the supplemental release. It feels like its the last big thing needed to help Akashic Mysteries pop. Can't have a subsystem without magic item support. Can't have this fun flavorful stuff without race support.

[stack]

I look forward to reading the class. I have to admit that I didn't follow the LotN playtest much. PoW, Akashic mysteries, and airships all took precedence, plus learning spheres of power.

[PsyBomb]

Alright, supplemental is up. Haven't done a thorough read yet, but so far...

Missing Frostbite Halo and Spear of the Loyal Paladin from the Veils list.

The weapon enchantments are underwhelming. On-crit effects tend to be wasted, unless they are spectacular. Repeating you base damage die or burning one Essence doesn't cut it.

Still need to do a detailed read to check for editing. Also, why are some of the veils highlighted in the list?

[Elricaltovilla]

Maybe I'm just dumb, but where are the rules about the HP/hardness of a veil? I'm specifically asking about Crusader's Shield, because damage can be dealt directly to the veil and I'm not sure how much damage the veil can take or what happens if it's destroyed.

[AGrinningCat]

Maybe I'm just dumb, but where are the rules about the HP/hardness of a veil? I'm specifically asking about Crusader's Shield, because damage can be dealt directly to the veil and I'm not sure how much damage the veil can take or what happens if it's destroyed.


Veils are mostly physical constructs of akasha, and as such can be targeted by effects like a Sunder attack; a Veil that takes more than twice the Veilweaver’s level in damage in a single attack is
suppressed and does not function for 1d4 rounds. Veils have a Hardness score equal to the Veilweaver’s level and gain a bonus to saves vs. targeted effects equal to the amount of Essence currently invested.
Second paragraph under 'Akasha and Magic'.

[Elricaltovilla]

Well that would explain why when I control+F'd Hit Points nothing turned up.

[Ssalarn]

Alright, supplemental is up. Haven't done a thorough read yet, but so far...

Missing Frostbite Halo and Spear of the Loyal Paladin from the Veils list.
***
Still need to do a detailed read to check for editing. Also, why are some of the veils highlighted in the list?

I'm still working the veil list, but I promised it would go up, so it's up. I'm hoping to have all the new veils, not just Halo and Spear, added by end of day today.

[AGrinningCat]

Yeah, it's in a weird spot. I did the same thing before manually looking for it.

Supplemental release
Wondrous items:
Igniting and Reverberating are priced too expensively for my tastes. Considering both require critical hits to function, I don't believe they're worth the cost of +2.

Consider the Wounding (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/wounding) property. It's a +1 stacking bleed damage at +2 price range. The effect is all but guaranteed (Against targets that can bleed) assuming you hit. Comparatively to Reverberating, which not only calls for a Critical Hit, but a Fort save as well (Which is most monster's strong stat), I don't believe the power level is in the same boat.

Igniting is the same idea -- Most crit-fish builds are looking at x2 damage or 1d10 bonus out of a +2 weapon (any of the elemental Burst qualities). At the same price, you're also getting a 1d6 Elemental damage as well, even if you don't crit.

The essence burn is nice for 'Akasha hunters', but it either needs to be more reliable(Not crit), or be cheaper to be competitive with other +2 weapon qualities.

[master4sword]

Probably worth noting that Igniting is already the name of a weapon property. Also, against a non-Akashic foe, it's a +1d10 on crit for +2 bonus, whereas Flaming Burst is 1d6 higher for the same cost (and that 1d6 works on every hit), so I agree that it's overpriced at the moment.

Could I suggest that Reverberating simply works on hit, no save, rather than on crit? The strongest it gets without size increases is 2d6, which you can pick up by simply nabbing a pair of elemental +1d6 abilities for the same cost. And the elemental damage bonuses work instantly, rather than giving them a round to act before they take the full damage. Sure, elemental damage is subject to resistance, but Reverberating gives them a round to respond before they feel the full impact - possibly healing so they survive the delayed portion of the damage or killing someone with one final attack before they take the full damage.

[Ssalarn]

Probably worth noting that Igniting is already the name of a weapon property. Also, against a non-Akashic foe, it's a +1d10 on crit for +2 bonus, whereas Flaming Burst is 1d6 higher for the same cost (and that 1d6 works on every hit), so I agree that it's overpriced at the moment.

Could I suggest that Reverberating simply works on hit, no save, rather than on crit? The strongest it gets without size increases is 2d6, which you can pick up by simply nabbing a pair of elemental +1d6 abilities for the same cost. And the elemental damage bonuses work instantly, rather than giving them a round to act before they take the full damage. Sure, elemental damage is subject to resistance, but Reverberating gives them a round to respond before they feel the full impact - possibly healing so they survive the delayed portion of the damage or killing someone with one final attack before they take the full damage.

Thanks for the FYI on Igniting, I had missed that apparently. I'm taking a second look at the abilities and seeing about tweaking them a bit to make them a smidge more powerful and in line with their price points (or adjusting the price points downwards).

[NomGarret]

I'm guessing the highlighted veils are ones with confirmed updates that haven't been written in. IIRC riven darts hand bind was switching to 1+essence darts.

[Extra Anchovies]

I'm guessing the highlighted veils are ones with confirmed updates that haven't been written in. IIRC riven darts hand bind was switching to 1+essence darts.

Hand Cannons and Riven Darts are getting updates? Geez, I just started a game with a Vizier focused on those two veils...

please don't be nerfs please don't be nerfs please don't be nerfs

[PsyBomb]

Hand Cannons and Riven Darts are getting updates? Geez, I just started a game with a Vizier focused on those two veils...

please don't be nerfs please don't be nerfs please don't be nerfs

Both? Color me curious, I usually focus on the Cannon and just use Darts as a street-sweeping option if I need to have range on it.

[stack]

Why focus on both those veils instead of just one of the other, out of curiosity? Seems a handcannon vizier would only use darts as a stop-gap until getting the feats to have handcannons fully online.

[Extra Anchovies]

Both? Color me curious, I usually focus on the Cannon and just use Darts as a street-sweeping option if I need to have range on it.

Indeed. I initially planned for a purely Hand Cannons-focused build but noticed that the darts are a standard action to fire off, which combined with my racial fly speed makes me a good skirmisher (especially if/when I pick up Flyby Attack). By "invested in both" I mean that I have the standard archery feats (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot) plus Chakra Targeting.


Why focus on both those veils instead of just one of the other, out of curiosity? Seems a handcannon vizier would only use darts as a stop-gap until getting the feats to have handcannons fully online.

I'm not entirely past the point where the darts are an effective stopgap. If you want to take a look at what I've built, the character sheet is linked at the top of my signature.

Riven Darts has roughly equal damage per round with Hand Cannons at my current level. The darts average 42 total, 28 single-target, and the Cannons average 34 total, 34 single-target at the same range (outside 20 feet, of course, Hand Cannons are the only option). Next level, when I gain access to the Wrists bind and the Deadly Aim damage steps up again, the averages will be 48/32 for Riven Darts and 45/45 for Hand Cannons. Riven Darts targets touch AC, but that difference is mostly mitigated by Hand Cannons having +4 more to hit at the same range.

So for the moment, the darts are noticeably better against multiple targets, but the Cannons have them beat if I need to focus down one particular target, and they mostly catch up on total damage next level.

[Ssalarn]

The changes to Hand Cannons and Riven Darts (which are now current in the Supplemental doc) are pretty minor, mostly just small verbage fixes. Hand Cannons just had "and effects" added after the note that it works with ranged combat feats, and Riven Darts had the entry updated to reflect that the bind gives 1+essence darts, not darts = essence, since that has some weird effects and wasn't the intent anyways.

I've actually updated all the veils in the Supplemental doc with the outstanding errata, and polished and added our contest winners and a few other veils I wrote in the contest thread. As soon as I get the remaining veils added, I'll be pasting in the FCBs, then reviewing the current weapon abilities to account for your feedback so far. After that, it's the last of the archetypes, the rest of the items, two more PrCs, and then the akashic bestiary. Anyone who bought the AM subscription is getting a serious steal on the Supplemental release, because this thing is going to be about 2.5x the size of any of the class releases.

[Elricaltovilla]

The changes to Hand Cannons and Riven Darts (which are now current in the Supplemental doc) are pretty minor, mostly just small verbage fixes. Hand Cannons just had "and effects" added after the note that it works with ranged combat feats, and Riven Darts had the entry updated to reflect that the bind gives 1+essence darts, not darts = essence, since that has some weird effects and wasn't the intent anyways.

I've actually updated all the veils in the Supplemental doc with the outstanding errata, and polished and added our contest winners and a few other veils I wrote in the contest thread. As soon as I get the remaining veils added, I'll be pasting in the FCBs, then reviewing the current weapon abilities to account for your feedback so far. After that, it's the last of the archetypes, the rest of the items, two more PrCs, and then the akashic bestiary. Anyone who bought the AM subscription is getting a serious steal on the Supplemental release, because this thing is going to be about 2.5x the size of any of the class releases.

That subscription is on my to buy list, but it's gonna have to wait until after I get a new computer. Still, I'm all set to buy the dead tree version of Akashic Mysteries when it comes out.

[PsyBomb]

The changes to Hand Cannons and Riven Darts (which are now current in the Supplemental doc) are pretty minor, mostly just small verbage fixes. Hand Cannons just had "and effects" added after the note that it works with ranged combat feats, and Riven Darts had the entry updated to reflect that the bind gives 1+essence darts, not darts = essence, since that has some weird effects and wasn't the intent anyways.

I've actually updated all the veils in the Supplemental doc with the outstanding errata, and polished and added our contest winners and a few other veils I wrote in the contest thread. As soon as I get the remaining veils added, I'll be pasting in the FCBs, then reviewing the current weapon abilities to account for your feedback so far. After that, it's the last of the archetypes, the rest of the items, two more PrCs, and then the akashic bestiary. Anyone who bought the AM subscription is getting a serious steal on the Supplemental release, because this thing is going to be about 2.5x the size of any of the class releases.

<yay!>

I'll look over the Veils as soon as you get the remaining ones up. Working on trying to break the new ones, worst I've got is a Guru basically Essence-bombing Spear with Gentle Touch via a few feats (including Shape Veil for Storm Gauntlets) and going TWF to have a normal one in the off-hand. Seeing if I can get enough room together to squeeze in the Spark of Divinity line from Bloodforge. Going to do better than my prior build, but still nowhere near Vengeance.

[Ilorin Lorati]

That subscription is on my to buy list, but it's gonna have to wait until after I get a new computer. Still, I'm all set to buy the dead tree version of Akashic Mysteries when it comes out.

Eeeh, I'll wait for Ultimate Akasha. :smallamused:

[Deadkitten]

So some questions about the Loyal Paladins Spear of Light...


ChakraBind(Hands):[G3,V2]Binding this veil to your Hands slot you gain the ability to throw it,causing it to transform into a bolt of holy light that strikes all enemies along a 10 foot long line,plus 10 feet per point of essence and dealing damage as normal for the weapon.Creatures caught in the line receive a reflex save for half damage

What kind of action is it to use the bind effect? It seems like you can possibly full attack with it.
Can ranged feats affect the bind?

[Extra Anchovies]

So some questions about the Loyal Paladins Spear of Light...

What kind of action is it to use the bind effect? It seems like you can possibly full attack with it.
Can ranged feats affect the bind?

It's a (Su) active ability with no set action type, so it defaults to standard action.

And it's not a ranged attack (no attack roll, and it allows a save), it's an area effect, so you can't apply ranged feats to Spear of Light any more than you can apply them to a breath weapon.

[Ssalarn]

It's a (Su) active ability with no set action type, so it defaults to standard action.

And it's not a ranged attack (no attack roll, and it allows a save), it's an area effect, so you can't apply ranged feats to Spear of Light any more than you can apply them to a breath weapon.

This is correct, though I'll clarify that in the ability entry for convenience sake.

[Deadkitten]

This is correct, though I'll clarify that in the ability entry for convenience sake.

Ok thanks, it just confused me a little due to the veil being a shortspear and the bind saying that you throw it.


By the way on the archetypes that you will be adding, are they going to be archetypes for the Vizier,Guru, and Daevic by any chance?

Edit: Can Armory of The Conqueror augment the damage of the Crimson totem?
You shape veils at the same time, and since you have to be wielding the weapon when you shape the Armory, I don't think the Totem would be a valid target correct?

Also, will any of the new veils get added to any of the Passion Veils of the Daevic?

[Ssalarn]

Ok thanks, it just confused me a little due to the veil being a shortspear and the bind saying that you throw it.


By the way on the archetypes that you will be adding, are they going to be archetypes for the Vizier,Guru, and Daevic by any chance?

Edit: Can Armory of The Conqueror augment the damage of the Crimson totem?
You shape veils at the same time, and since you have to be wielding the weapon when you shape the Armory, I don't think the Totem would be a valid target correct?

Also, will any of the new veils get added to any of the Passion Veils of the Daevic?

Yes, there will be archetypes for the Vizier, Guru, and Daevic. Vizier will get the Sculptor archetype (think Green Lantern), the Guru gets the Bounty Hunter, and Daevic gets the Evolutionist. There's also the Becomer Barbarian archetype (rageweaving), the Legend Rider animal companion archetype, the Mobile Champion Gunslinger archetype, the Living Cannon Marksman archetype, and new talents for the slayer, rogue, and investigator.

As long as you're shaping the totem at the same time as the armory, it can be the weapon the armory affects.

Currently I'm not planning on adding the new veils to the passion lists.

[Extra Anchovies]

the Mobile Champion Gunslinger archetype

We're getting an Akashic Gunslinger? I'm listening.

[Ssalarn]

We're getting an Akashic Gunslinger? I'm listening.

I can talk about it, or I can work on finishing getting it proofed and added to the Supplemental doc. Your choice :smalltongue:

I will say, both the Marksman and Gunslinger archetypes draw really heavily on video game tropes though, with the Mega Man X series being a big influence on the Marksman and the Gunslinger as my attempt at giving you something along the lines of Rubi Malone from Wet.

Also, the Legend Rider's name may change. It was originally a Cavalier archetype, but I decided to take a page from the Animal Archive and make it a companion archetype instead so that it would cover a broader range of characters.

[Ilorin Lorati]

I can talk about it, or I can work on finishing getting it proofed and added to the Supplemental doc. Your choice :smalltongue:

Please, continue. The sooner you finish with Akasha stuff, the sooner I get to play with Psitech. :smallbiggrin:

[Deadkitten]

Loyal Paladin's Spear of Light
Descriptors: [Good]
Class: Daevic, Guru, Vizier
Slot: Hands
Saving Throw: Reflex
Holy light forms into a gleaming spear, ready to plunge into your foe’s evil heart. When this veil is shaped, the user gains a weapon forged from akashic energy and infused with the power of the upper planes. Treat this weapon as a shortspear sized appropriately for the wielder, except that attacks made with it are melee touch attacks that deal holy damage (treat the base weapon size as one category smaller if target is good, or one size category larger if evil; these size modifiers stack with all other size changes or virtual size changes). This weapon may be used with the Weapon Finesse feat. If the spear leaves your possession it dissipates at the end of your turn and can be reformed in your hand again as a swift action, or whenever the veilweaver spends a swift action to invest essence.

Essence: For each point of essence invested in this ability, the spear’s damage increases by 1d6. For every 2 points of essence invested in this veil, the spear’s reach increases by 5 feet.

Chakra Bind (Hands): [G3, V2] Binding this veil to your Hands slot you gain the ability to throw it, causing it to transform into a bolt of holy light that strikes all enemies along a 10 foot long line, plus 10 feet per point of essence and dealing damage as normal for the weapon. Creatures caught in the line receive a reflex save for half damage.

Is the spear's increased damage supposed to be an increase to the weapons base damage or is it treated as additional damage?

If it is an increase to base weapon damage then it has devastating potential with Armory of the Conqueror.

Lets see it on a Daevic: (since that is the only class i have experience with right now)

At 18th level you can put in a total of 4(base)+ 1(Enhanced capacity) +3 (Essence Straps, Greater) = 8 essence for a 9d6 touch attack.
Combine that with Armory of the Conqueror invested for 4(Base)+2(passion increase) +1 (Essence straps, lesser) = 7 essence and 4 size increases.

Per the damage dice FAQ: 9d6 increased by 4 sizes would be 12d8 for once size increase. I don't have a full understanding of how the table works but it caps at 16d6 and I don't know how to calculate past that for the other 3 size increases.

All you have to do is add in the Vital Strike Line and the feat for POWE that lets you Vital strike on an AoO for Hilarious Damage.

[Ssalarn]

Is the spear's increased damage supposed to be an increase to the weapons base damage or is it treated as additional damage?

If it is an increase to base weapon damage then it has devastating potential with Armory of the Conqueror.

Lets see it on a Daevic: (since that is the only class i have experience with right now)

At 18th level you can put in a total of 4(base)+ 1(Enhanced capacity) +3 (Essence Straps, Greater) = 8 essence for a 9d6 touch attack.
Combine that with Armory of the Conqueror invested for 4(Base)+2(passion increase) +1 (Essence straps, lesser) = 7 essence and 4 size increases.

Per the damage dice FAQ: 9d6 increased by 4 sizes would be 12d8 for once size increase. I don't have a full understanding of how the table works but it caps at 16d6 and I don't know how to calculate past that for the other 3 size increases.

All you have to do is add in the Vital Strike Line and the feat for POWE that lets you Vital strike on an AoO for Hilarious Damage.

It should be bonus damage, like from the holy or vicious properties. I'll tweak the verbage to make that clear.

[Milo v3]

Supplemental release sounds giant. Wasn't expecting anything like monsters to be in it, that'll be a giant treat.

[Ssalarn]

Supplemental release sounds giant. Wasn't expecting anything like monsters to be in it, that'll be a giant treat.

Yeah, there'll be a bestiary section with daevas, variant rakshasa, and a few other critters.

I really suspect that this will be closer to a $12-$15 price point for non-subscribers instead of the $8 price point of the individual class .pdfs, so if you haven't picked up the subscription, I strongly suggest you do so (and not just so I have a bigger art budget for the akashic races :smalltongue:). The subscription option will likely end once this .pdf goes up for sale. Also, we'll probably do something similar to what we did with Path of War, where subscribers will be able to get the print release at a reduced price.

By the by, I feel like something's still missing here, so lend me your eyes and tell me what you think (I'm also testing out a different name than "Mobile Champion"; I thought about Wetboy but was worried Brent Weeks would sue me) :

Gunslinger Archetype- Wet Work Specialist
Sometimes you've got a dirty job to do, one that calls for fast feet and a lot of blood. These are the kind of jobs that wet work specialists train for, mixing supernatural agility with a hail of bullets and a steadfast determination to get the job done.

Akashic Firearms- At 1st level, the wet work specialist unlocks the ability to bind to his Hands chakra, and gains the Pistolero’s Bind feat as a bonus feat even if he would not normally qualify for it. The wet work specialist uses his class level -3 when determining his veilweaver level, and uses Wisdom as his primary veilweaving attribute. This replaces the deadeye and quick clear deeds.

Mobility Binds- Starting at 2nd level, the wet work specialist unlocks the ability to bind veils to his feet chakra. Despite lacking true veilweaving abilities, the wet work specialist can readily control the flow of energy through these chakra to aid his mobility, granting him the following deeds:

Wall Cling (Su): At 2nd level, as long as the wet work specialist has at least 1 grit point, he can traverse walls or other relatively smooth vertical surfaces as easily as normal ground. If the specialist ends his turn still on a vertical surface, he must spend 1 point of grit or immediately fall.

Akashic Shot (Su): Starting at 3rd level, as long as the wet work specialist has at least 1 grit point, he can create special akashic ammunition for his firearm as part of an attack action, allowing him to make the attack without needing to reload or expend ammunition. By spending 1 grit point as a free action, he can instead use akashic ammunition for every shot in a full attack sequence.

Essence Launch (Su): Starting at 6th level, the wet work specialist can spend 1 grit point as an immediate action to release an explosive blast of akashic energy from his Feet chakra, launching himself into the air. This ability can be used in the following ways:

This ability can be used in conjunction with a move action to jump, granting the specialist a +10 competence bonus to his acrobatics check.
This ability can be used as part of an acrobatics check made during a move action to avoid an attack of opportunity, granting a +5 competence bonus to the check.
By spending an additional grit point when activating this deed, the specialist can activate this ability in response to an attack, making an acrobatics check and using it in place of his armor class. The specialist must declare he is using this ability before he knows the result of the attack roll. If the attack misses, the specialist may immediately move up to 10 feet as a free action that can be taken even if it's not his turn. If the attack still succeeds, he is knocked prone in addition to the attack's normal effects.
Run and Gun (Su): Starting at 7th level, the wet work specialist may move up to his speed as part of a full attack action by spending 1 grit point. He may resolve each attack in the sequence from any point during his movement, but must make all iterative attacks in sequence from highest to lowest as normal (so a specialist with multiple attacks cannot resolve an iterative attack from a square earlier in his movement than the square he resolves his highest bonus attack from).
This replaces the nimble class feature and the pistol-whip, deadshot, and lightning reload deeds.

Bonus Feats - The wet work specialist may select the Shape Veil feat in addition to combat or grit feats. This modifies the bonus feats class feature.

[Extra Anchovies]

Hm. I like. Might want to specify how long the ability to stay on walls by spending 1 grit point for Wall Cling lasts. It seems to me like it's supposed to be until the end of his next turn but that isn't clear (so it could be interpreted that it only keeps him up for a moment longer, or that it lets him stand on walls indefinitely).

[Doomeye56]

Brent Weeks seemed like a real chill guy when I got my first book for the light ringer series signed so I don't think he'd attempt to sue And wetboy is pretty common nomenclature for a hired killer/assassin.

[PsyBomb]

Odd for it to not get any Essence, nor any automatic Veils. Only one of your Akashic Archetypes to not do so. Still, it works... although I will repeat that Pistolero's Bind blows massive, massive chunks is very subpar compared to what it's trying to cover for, since unlike Quick Clear it won't actually fix the weapon (and you still lose Deadeye on top of it).

I like the mobility theme you have going, but there is one other issue with the archetype as it stands. Once it gets moving, you'll be burning Grit like it's bonfire night and your buddy just brought marshmallows. Unless they get a way to compensate for this, it'll be very rough for them after the first couple of fights each day.

[Milo v3]

I was hoping Rakshasa were going to be included. :smallsmile:

As for gunslinger. I'm actually getting a titanfall pilot vibe from it with the wall clinging and super jumping.... would work rather well in a gestalt with that psitech class.

[stack]

For favored class bonuses, it would be nice to give a way for lower essence-cap classes to boost some receptacles, even if it is limited. Like Solhofat daevics getting to add 1/X essence cap to their racial natural armor ability.

[Ssalarn]

Odd for it to not get any Essence, nor any automatic Veils. Only one of your Akashic Archetypes to not do so. Still, it works... although I will repeat that Pistolero's Bind blows massive, massive chunks is very subpar compared to what it's trying to cover for, since unlike Quick Clear it won't actually fix the weapon (and you still lose Deadeye on top of it).

I like the mobility theme you have going, but there is one other issue with the archetype as it stands. Once it gets moving, you'll be burning Grit like it's bonfire night and your buddy just brought marshmallows. Unless they get a way to compensate for this, it'll be very rough for them after the first couple of fights each day.

I was thinking of giving it a small essence pool that it could burn for grit to help power it's abilities, or replacing grit altogether but letting it use its essence pool as a grit pool with burn.

As to it not outright getting any veilweaving, that's actually very intentional as a design decision; I want to shift the way it's played and open the door to akasha without actually pushing it through.

[Deadkitten]

So from essence forged weapons:


The weapon must have an amount of essence invested equal to the total enhancement bonus of any accessed abilities for those
to be used

So if the weapon has both a +1 ability and a +2 ability do you have to invest 2 or 3 points of essence to access both weapon special abilities?

[Ssalarn]

So from essence forged weapons:



So if the weapon has both a +1 ability and a +2 ability do you have to invest 2 or 3 points of essence to access both weapon special abilities?

Assuming you've met the other requisite of being able to bind to your wrist slot, you'd need 3 essence invested. You need essence equal to the total effective enhancement bonus of all the abilities you want to unlock (in this instance, the total of the +1 and +2 ability is +3).

Kind of the inside joke on that one is that the fluff says essence forged weapons are training tools for users of akasha, but in one of our games they were a training tool for an akashic player. He'd always used his essence as "set and forget" finding the best all around investment combo and then just leaving it that way. When he got his first essence forged weapon, he really wanted to use it but didn't have quite enough essence, so he started playing with his swift actions more and wrote quick cards for his offensive and defensive essence investment spreads. He's now at the point where he reinvests essence almost every round, and has like 5 sets of quick cards for different situational layouts, so the essence forged weapon really did teach him how to be a better veilweaver.

[Kaidinah]

I enjoy this gunslinger archetypes mechanics. That mobility is fantastic!

Also I sure am glad that I got the subscription way before my car decided to wage war on my wallet. I'll be sure to put some money aside for that dead tree version though. My bookshelf likes dead trees more than my car likes money.

[Ssalarn]

Eeeh, I'll wait for Ultimate Akasha. :smallamused:

Fair warning, since we're only a copper best-seller on DrivethruRPG, Ultimate Akasha is not guaranteed. We're still in that kind of uncomfortable place where we're more likely to lump Akasha, Truenaming, and Shadow Magic into a Tome of Magic style release than we are to do an Ultimate Psionics style Akashic release. Subscriptions now are what create the possibility of an Ultimate Akasha later.


I enjoy this gunslinger archetypes mechanics. That mobility is fantastic!

Also I sure am glad that I got the subscription way before my car decided to wage war on my wallet. I'll be sure to put some money aside for that dead tree version though. My bookshelf likes dead trees more than my car likes money.

Yeah, the goal was just to give you a character who could do all the cool crazy crap you'd expect to see from a game like Wet, Destiny, or (apparently) Titanfall, or a movie like Equilibrium or The Matrix, without actually trying to fix the firearm subsystem. The archetype also has the advantage of letting you graft as much or as little Akasha onto your Gunslinger as you're comfortable with.

[Taveena]

Peeersonally I'd make it deal Constitution damage rather than fire damage? It fits the fluff better (at the moment, you can currently burn away a Zombie or Golem's life force, but not a Fire Giant's) and distances it mechanically from Flaming Burst, which is normally considered... pretty terrible. And this is worse.

EDIT: ... and also rename it somethin' like Lifeburning.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Subscriptions now are what create the possibility of an Ultimate Akasha later.

You misunderstand me. (http://i.imgur.com/1tzAkDa.png)

[Ssalarn]

You misunderstand me. (http://i.imgur.com/1tzAkDa.png)

You're a champ :smallwink:
Thanks for your purchase!

[Vhaidara]

Is it only drivethrurpg that matters? I'm 99% sure I went straight through the DSP store.

Also, I hope it doesn't come to that. I think what crippled Tome of Magic was that it was too condensed. No part of it got the full support it needed to be good, and then none of it got support past that.

[Ilorin Lorati]

:smallbiggrin:

I didn't buy a physical copy of DSP's psionics line until UPsi comes out, and I'm unlikely to do so again until they release another hardback of an Augmented compilation. All of my games are online and will be for the foreseeable future, if I'm going to buy a physical Akasha book it's going to be a full-color hardback to show off and not actually to use - the same applies to Ultimate Path of War, as well as maybe eventually Ultimate <Truenaming line here> and Ultimate <Shadowmagic line here> if they ever get off the ground / to that point.

[AGrinningCat]

I grabbed Ultimate Psionics in hardback and Path of War in softcover (Not by my choice; teach me not to specify when I'm ordering through a gaming store).

I hope PoW gets an ultimate edition for a nice big tome. Something to beat my players with when they start acting up.

If Akasha might get rolled with truenaming and shadowcasting into a big tome, I'd be happy too.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Is there a chance to get text in the Akashic Warrior's bonus feats ability to explicitly state that it'll still allow replacing the bonus feats through other archetypes? Because as it stands right now it's not compatible with PoW:E's Myrmidon because of it modifying bonus feats. It's fine if not, they are from different splat lines.