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Deremir
2015-04-11, 09:52 PM
so my dm has made a ruling that kender have to have fear because if they didn't they could not survive. in her eyes a character that has no fear would not be able to retreat (even strategically) because a character with no fear would not fear death and thus not CARE about whether or not he died and so wouldn't retreat even if he was sure to die. My argument is that my character wants to experience as much of this world before he leaves it and thus prefers not to die.

she seems to be basing part of this off of how in our first session (which we just had) my character ran away from a monster and to our boat (where the rest of the party was) and then turned to fight the monster. she believes that i would not do that if i did not have a fear of dying

thoughts? opinions? who's right here?

(also please don't turn this into yet another thread about whether it is or is not a good idea to play a kender)

Kid Jake
2015-04-11, 10:31 PM
I see it like this (https://youtu.be/5qqdovHOgvU?t=1m45s).

If the tiger catches the monkey, the monkey's screwed; but that doesn't mean the monkey's scared. It just means he's gotta be faster than the tiger if he wants to keep playing.

jaydubs
2015-04-11, 11:57 PM
I think it's bad practice in general for a DM to tell a player how they should be roleplaying a character. There are exceptions to that, such as dropping a reminder when it seems like an oversight or if it's blatantly metagamey (in a bad way). But when the player just has a different interpretation of how a character would behave, the player's judgment needs to take precedence.

But to get into the actual argument, I think she's confusing "no fear" with "incapable of measuring risks" or "totally unconcerned with self-preservation." To me, fear is that specific emotion that triggers when we feel danger, and causes us to want to fight/flee/hide. But just because something can't feel that particular emotion, doesn't mean it can't decide to retreat for other reasons.

Fictional examples that show something without fear can still retreat:

-Data from Star Trek TNG. A huge part of his character is the inability to feel any emotions, including fear. But he still has the capability to choose to retreat on numerous occasions.

-Insert Terminator model here. Let's go with the traditional T-800 from the first movie. If it's tasked with killing someone, I don't see it retreating in order to preserve life and limb. But it might very well calculate that the chance of success in a given scenario is too small, and therefore retreat to make a more likely attempt at a later time.

Real life examples that show something without fear can still retreat:

-Again, computer-based decision making. Take video games, or NASA robots, or what have you. It's quite easy to program something to retreat under X scenario. But that clearly doesn't equate to the robot/video game character/whatever actually feeling afraid.

-Organisms too simple to feel emotions. Things like bacteria are too simple to actually feel fear, but they can still flee from danger.

Red Fel
2015-04-12, 12:28 AM
thoughts? opinions? who's right here?

There's a difference between having no fear and having no sense of self-preservation, just like there's a difference between bravery and stupidity. In fact, the analogy is virtually identical.

The Kender are joyful creatures. They don't fear because they find joy in everything; every opportunity is a chance for more excitement, not terror. That said, they don't have to be stupid. They may not be afraid of the dragon, but they know it will eat them; they may not be afraid of death, but that doesn't mean they look forward to it. They may seek to avoid it, but it simply doesn't worry them.

Also, as others have mentioned, it's bad form for a DM to tell you how to play your character, or for a DM to change the rules once gameplay has begun (absent serious shenanigans). Have a sit-down and ask your DM what the problem is; it's possible that this is just the vent for a deeper frustration with something else. Out of all the things to become cross over, a Kender's inability to feel fear seems oddly innocuous.

Karl Aegis
2015-04-12, 01:01 AM
An entire race of things that will jump off a cliff if you dared them to. Why aren't they extinct?

Kid Jake
2015-04-12, 01:22 AM
An entire race of things that will jump off a cliff if you dared them to. Why aren't they extinct?

Unafraid isn't the same thing as stupid. I wouldn't be afraid of a bonfire if I stumbled across one; but that doesn't mean I'm going to leap in head first and roll around. I'm not afraid of spiders, but I wouldn't see how many I could fit in my mouth on a whim.

xBlackWolfx
2015-04-12, 01:34 AM
There are people in the world who don't experience fear: they're called psychopaths.

They don't fear death, but they try to preserve their existence anyway. Why? Because its more fun that way. To them, life is literally a game. Oh, and because they don't feel fear, they also don't fear punishment, or pain. They don't like pain, but there's nothing in their heads telling them to avoid it. They don't care what others think of them, they just make people think they're an angel just because its amusing and comes with practical benefits.

A person who is actually incapable of feeling fear is NOT a good thing. They can't be intimidated, they can't be controlled, they do w/e they want regardless of the possible consequences.

And of course, psychopaths tend to be violent, though not always. The business world is dominated by psychopaths. Their screwed-up minds are ideal for success in a capitalistic economy, where the only rule is 'survival of the fittest'. They have no moral code (since they don't fear punishment), and they feel no empathy. They will do w/e is necessary to get what they want.

A person like this cannot be good. They can only be evil. There's no way it can be good...

Kid Jake
2015-04-12, 01:50 AM
A person like this cannot be good. They can only be evil. There's no way it can be good...

Oh definitely. There's no way that anyone without fear could ever become anything more than an absolute monster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin#TOC-Aura-of-Courage-Su-).

Ralanr
2015-04-12, 01:52 AM
A person who is actually incapable of feeling fear is NOT a good thing. They can't be intimidated, they can't be controlled, they do w/e they want regardless of the possible consequences.


I doubt such a person could ever be considered brave or courageous either. In my opinion anyway. To me, being courageous is having fear but not letting it control your actions. You fight the fear back and push forward. How can something that feels no fear be courageous?

Hell do they even have a fight or flight response?

Keltest
2015-04-12, 06:20 AM
Back to the actual topic, I agree with the people who said your DM was out of line. Besides it being your character, not theirs, fear is not the only reason for someone to retreat from a fight.

Battlebooze
2015-04-12, 01:35 PM
Your DM was out of line, but then again, playing a Kender means you deserved it.

:yuk:



(also please don't turn this into yet another thread about whether it is or is not a good idea to play a kender)

Kender fearlessness is as innate to Kender as the above is to discussing them.

Coidzor
2015-04-12, 01:58 PM
There are people in the world who don't experience fear: they're called psychopaths.

They don't fear death, but they try to preserve their existence anyway. Why? Because its more fun that way. To them, life is literally a game. Oh, and because they don't feel fear, they also don't fear punishment, or pain. They don't like pain, but there's nothing in their heads telling them to avoid it. They don't care what others think of them, they just make people think they're an angel just because its amusing and comes with practical benefits.

A person who is actually incapable of feeling fear is NOT a good thing. They can't be intimidated, they can't be controlled, they do w/e they want regardless of the possible consequences.

And of course, psychopaths tend to be violent, though not always. The business world is dominated by psychopaths. Their screwed-up minds are ideal for success in a capitalistic economy, where the only rule is 'survival of the fittest'. They have no moral code (since they don't fear punishment), and they feel no empathy. They will do w/e is necessary to get what they want.

A person like this cannot be good. They can only be evil. There's no way it can be good...

Now you've done and gone it. You've unleashed a new idea into the ether. Business-Kender.

Keltest
2015-04-12, 02:09 PM
Now you've done and gone it. You've unleashed a new idea into the ether. Business-Kender.

Even the Dragonlance authors didn't do that! The horror!

LibraryOgre
2015-04-12, 03:02 PM
As others have said, kender don't experience fear, but that doesn't mean that they are suicidal or incapable of evaluating risk... their valuations might be a bit different, but they're not incapable of saying "That's gonna get me killed."

On a bit more meta level, Fear is an actual game effect, with actual game consequences. In AD&D, there was a 1st level spell for clerics and wizards that caused fear... it was a common thing to encounter. Most PCs could be adequately considered to be immune to fear... under normal circumstances, they never check morale, and they behave in a way that is completely determined outside themselves. If I say my 1st level dwarven fighter is going to hold the corridor against 1000 screaming trolls, then he does it, even though it's a stupid thing for a 1st level fighter to try. It's suicidal, and he's going to fail barring divine intervention. But he's experiencing fear only as a role-playing aspect... it has no game effects. My kender handler, on the other hand, is free to say "I don't want to see what it's like to be pooped out by troll that much!" and run away. He's not afraid... he's just got other priorities than being eaten.

On the other hand, if that same 1st level dwarven fighter is facing a 1st level priest who casts "Cause Fear" on him, the fighter, despite my role-playing HAS to make a saving throw. If he fails, he HAS to run away. The kender handler, though? He's immune to fear... it has no game effects on him. The priest casts the spell, the kender says "My, that was an odd time for a prayer", and cuts the priest's belt so his pants fall down. Because Fear, as a game effect, has no effect on the character.

Sith_Happens
2015-04-12, 05:49 PM
so my dm has made a ruling that kender have to have fear because if they didn't they could not survive. in her eyes a character that has no fear would not be able to retreat (even strategically) because a character with no fear would not fear death and thus not CARE about whether or not he died and so wouldn't retreat even if he was sure to die. My argument is that my character wants to experience as much of this world before he leaves it and thus prefers not to die.

she seems to be basing part of this off of how in our first session (which we just had) my character ran away from a monster and to our boat (where the rest of the party was) and then turned to fight the monster. she believes that i would not do that if i did not have a fear of dying

thoughts? opinions? who's right here?

How does she handle Paladins, I wonder.

NomGarret
2015-04-12, 06:09 PM
The best example I've seen, outside of some particularly good kender players, is in the Jim Henson Storyteller series. One of them is entitled, appropriately, "Fearnot." Anyone wondering what kender fearlessness looks like should watch that.

Keltest
2015-04-12, 06:18 PM
The best example I've seen, outside of some particularly good kender players, is in the Jim Henson Storyteller series. One of them is entitled, appropriately, "Fearnot." Anyone wondering what kender fearlessness looks like should watch that.

Or heck, just read the actual dragonlance books.

LibraryOgre
2015-04-12, 07:00 PM
Or heck, just read the actual dragonlance books.

I would suggest starting with "Kaz, The Minotaur". Kaz teaches his kender companion, Delbin Knotwillow, that sometimes he needs to stop talking or he will anger the minotaur, and that is not nearly as fun as it might sound.

themaque
2015-04-12, 08:03 PM
A person like this cannot be good. They can only be evil. There's no way it can be good...

Just because they lack fear doesn't mean they lack empathy.

and as far as your GM is concerned, I also feel there is a diffrence between being afraid of something and considering it inconsequential.

Maglubiyet
2015-04-12, 08:33 PM
Also, they might not fear death, but they could fear other things -- being separated from friends/letting friends down by dying, reputation - i.e. losing to someone they deem inferior (what will people say!), missing out on the loot, or missing Taco Tuesday dinner.

Kender are curious, right? Maybe they don't want to die just because then they don't get to see what happens tomorrow!

(Anyway, your DM's ruling is silly).

Esprit15
2015-04-12, 08:34 PM
I wonder what your GM thinks of the Paladin, to echo some mentions of others.

BWR
2015-04-13, 12:57 AM
If the DM wants to make game-wide alterations to a race in the game, that's her business and her right. This isn't saying 'you have to play your character this way', this is altering the nature of the game. It's no different than saying "in my games, goblins are effete, sophisticated urban artistes instead of crude tribal monsters who hang out in the swamp".
I do, like many other here, think she is misinterpreting what 'no fear' means, and it definitely doesn't jive with how kender have been portrayed in the books.

Kender aren't stupid, they aren't suicidal, most don't go around trying to find dangerous situations. All adventurers are far more suicidal than the vast majority of kender.

LibraryOgre
2015-04-13, 11:13 AM
Just because they lack fear doesn't mean they lack empathy.

In fact, reading the books, Kender tend to be filled with empathy.

Keltest
2015-04-13, 11:20 AM
In fact, reading the books, Kender tend to be filled with empathy.

Even for the bad guys!

Gritmonger
2015-04-13, 12:18 PM
I'm torn. Fear is a survival trait - so how would you survive if you had no fear? What other selection criteria would have to come into play to keep your species alive?

It would need to be something that would allow them to exploit good luck - namely an explicit trait of good luck, or a high enough birth rate to afford shedding so much of the population. So, kids are expected to die or be extremely lucky.

Fear also makes you wary of strangers - Kender should be the most gullible creatures on the planet.

So, honestly - I'd think that would lead to a distinct lack of parental care or oversight, since while you might impart positive skills, you could not confer any warnings or dangers because you don't have any to confer.

So, in conclusion, I think Kender realistically would be octopi.

Keltest
2015-04-13, 12:26 PM
I'm torn. Fear is a survival trait - so how would you survive if you had no fear? What other selection criteria would have to come into play to keep your species alive?

It would need to be something that would allow them to exploit good luck - namely an explicit trait of good luck, or a high enough birth rate to afford shedding so much of the population. So, kids are expected to die or be extremely lucky.

Fear also makes you wary of strangers - Kender should be the most gullible creatures on the planet.

So, honestly - I'd think that would lead to a distinct lack of parental care or oversight, since while you might impart positive skills, you could not confer any warnings or dangers because you don't have any to confer.

So, in conclusion, I think Kender realistically would be octopi.

Kender manage to survive for two reasons. One, is that for all their annoying habits, theyre REALLY good at surviving once people decide to kill them. Probably due to practice. If a kender isnt ready to stop experiencing things yet, they'll avoid death, and good luck catching them. Two is that a lack of fear does not mean stupid. Theyre fully capable of recognizing dangerous situations, and recognize when unpleasant things happen or are about to happen. A kender isnt going to stab themselves to see what it would be like.

Also, Kender are totally gullible, but pulling a fast one on a kender is pointless anyway unless youre trying to get them to go away. Theres a moderate chance they'll end up with more of your money after a scam than you do of theirs, and being malicious to a kender by sending them into, say, a dragons lair is going to result in the kender having fun, and possibly making the dragon mad at you.

Flickerdart
2015-04-13, 01:29 PM
I'm not afraid of Brussel sprouts, but it doesn't mean I want to eat them.

Kid Jake
2015-04-13, 01:31 PM
Kender manage to survive for two reasons. One, is that for all their annoying habits, theyre REALLY good at surviving once people decide to kill them. Probably due to practice. If a kender isnt ready to stop experiencing things yet, they'll avoid death, and good luck catching them. Two is that a lack of fear does not mean stupid. Theyre fully capable of recognizing dangerous situations, and recognize when unpleasant things happen or are about to happen. A kender isnt going to stab themselves to see what it would be like.

Also, Kender are totally gullible, but pulling a fast one on a kender is pointless anyway unless youre trying to get them to go away. Theres a moderate chance they'll end up with more of your money after a scam than you do of theirs, and being malicious to a kender by sending them into, say, a dragons lair is going to result in the kender having fun, and possibly making the dragon mad at you.

They're basically a race of Mr Magoos.

Segev
2015-04-13, 02:25 PM
Paladins are also unable to feel fear.

themaque
2015-04-13, 06:24 PM
Paladins are also unable to feel fear.

And this very comic has good examples of them living up to their ideals, and how that lack of fear can be used to bring them down as well.

Gritmonger
2015-04-13, 08:46 PM
Hmm... octopus...er, I mean, Kender paladin...

Bad character, or the Worst character?

Like putting nitrous in a powered unicycle...

Sith_Happens
2015-04-13, 11:30 PM
Hmm... octopus...er, I mean, Kender paladin...

Bad character, or the Worst character?

Like putting nitrous in a powered unicycle...

Sadly I don't think D&D metaphysics accepts insanity defenses, which means kender are physically incapable of maintaining a Lawful alignment, much less the Paladin Code of Conduct.

Battlebooze
2015-04-14, 04:07 AM
I think the big difference is that a Palladin knows what fear is and they may even be afraid, but they (after 10th level at least) don't suffer from the game effects of fear.

Kender, on the other hand, have a genetic inability to have the emotion. It's not a part of their life experience. It's like that part of their peanut sized brains never formed. They may not like suffering, but they aren't afraid of suffering. They shouldn't understand fear in others, since how can you have empathy for something alien to your mindset?

Lord Torath
2015-04-14, 08:09 AM
They key point is that Kender are immune to mechanical fear. They can still be cautious (I'm afraid I won't be able to snag that cool bauble if I make too much noise). They are highly empathetic, and can have fear for others, even if they have no fear of others (Flint's gonna get killed if I don't go help him out! That dragon's really big and powerful, but if I hide, he won't find me, and I'll be able to touch a dragon egg. How cool is that!).

Gritmonger
2015-04-14, 08:29 AM
They key point is that Kender are immune to mechanical fear. They can still be cautious (I'm afraid I won't be able to snag that cool bauble if I make too much noise). They are highly empathetic, and can have fear for others, even if they have no fear of others (Flint's gonna get killed if I don't go help him out! That dragon's really big and powerful, but if I hide, he won't find me, and I'll be able to touch a dragon egg. How cool is that!).

I don't see this distinction. If they have empathy, surely they would curb their taunting since they would understand it might hurt the feelings of a friendly target, or cause them to refrain from handling if they know other people might get upset. As written they are intensely uncaring and antisocial.

Lord Torath
2015-04-14, 08:34 AM
I don't see this distinction. If they have empathy, surely they would curb their taunting since they would understand it might hurt the feelings of a friendly target, or cause them to refrain from handling if they know other people might get upset. As written they are intensely uncaring and antisocial.As written? As written where? In the novels, they are very kind and caring for their friends, and save their Taunts for their enemies. Or anyone throwing unimaginative insults around. In the rulebooks? Probably depends on the edition and your interpretation. The creators of the race felt they should be empathetic and loyal, although perhaps not really ever understanding what non-kender really mean when they talk about being afraid.

Hamste
2015-04-14, 08:46 AM
Sadly I don't think D&D metaphysics accepts insanity defenses, which means kender are physically incapable of maintaining a Lawful alignment, much less the Paladin Code of Conduct.

But a half kender could make an excellent paladin (or at least the dragonlance equivalent) up to a point. I loved that story. The idea a half-kender inherently had most of the training needed to be a knight was hilarious.

LibraryOgre
2015-04-14, 10:50 AM
I don't see this distinction. If they have empathy, surely they would curb their taunting since they would understand it might hurt the feelings of a friendly target, or cause them to refrain from handling if they know other people might get upset. As written they are intensely uncaring and antisocial.

Yeah, I don't see any support for that statement at all. They have a loose definition of property, certainly, but they frequently take risks for others.

Gritmonger
2015-04-14, 11:03 AM
Yeah, I don't see any support for that statement at all. They have a loose definition of property, certainly, but they frequently take risks for others.

They handle, in being caught handling they immediately taunt in reaction to accusations of theft. Neither is empathetic nor social.

LibraryOgre
2015-04-14, 11:31 AM
They handle, in being caught handling they immediately taunt in reaction to accusations of theft. Neither is empathetic nor social.

That's not a thing I have ever seen, outside of people gaming the system.

The default reaction for a kender caught handling is to deny that they stole it. "You must have dropped it." "I was looking for someone to give it back to." "I was just looking at it."

NichG
2015-04-14, 12:38 PM
Playing a character as actually incapable of the emotion of fear is an interesting experience. You have to look at your reasons for hesitation and ask 'am I hesitating because it is a bad idea to act with the amount of information I have and I am waiting to obtain more information, or am I hesitating because I am afraid of the unknown consequences?'. Basically, not acting becomes a proactive choice in its own right - you aren't acting for a reason, rather than just hesitating because you're trying to convince yourself. Its difficult to do, but its interesting to play with that line between rational retreat/passivity and a lack of decisiveness brought on by fear-type emotions.

Coidzor
2015-04-15, 12:22 PM
That's not a thing I have ever seen, outside of people gaming the system.

The default reaction for a kender caught handling is to deny that they stole it. "You must have dropped it." "I was looking for someone to give it back to." "I was just looking at it."

Calling someone a klutz for getting pickpocketed by the Kender. Also, lying. Also, also, victim blaming.

Because Kender.


They key point is that Kender are immune to mechanical fear. They can still be cautious (I'm afraid I won't be able to snag that cool bauble if I make too much noise). They are highly empathetic, and can have fear for others, even if they have no fear of others (Flint's gonna get killed if I don't go help him out! That dragon's really big and powerful, but if I hide, he won't find me, and I'll be able to touch a dragon egg. How cool is that!).

That. Ah. That doesn't really sound like empathy, since you just constructed a scenario where a Kender decided to hide and let their companion die but it's cool because they're hiding by some dragon eggs and get to touch them. :smallconfused:

JadedDM
2015-04-15, 12:32 PM
Calling someone a klutz for getting pickpocketed by the Kender. Also, lying. Also, also, victim blaming.

Because Kender.
Kender actually believe those things, though. They honestly think that the person dropped it or lost it, or it 'fell' into their pouches, and so forth.


That. Ah. That doesn't really sound like empathy, since you just constructed a scenario where a Kender decided to hide and let their companion die but it's cool because they're hiding by some dragon eggs and get to touch them. :smallconfused:

Pretty sure that was meant as two separate examples, not one.

1. Flint's gonna get killed if I don't go help him out!
2. That dragon's really big and powerful, but if I hide, he won't find me, and I'll be able to touch a dragon egg. How cool is that!

Although Lord Torath can clear up what he meant there.

Segev
2015-04-15, 02:03 PM
I'm playing a Paladin who has a number of oddities about his character (few to any being actually mechanical). When he reached the level of being immune to fear, I did play it as him literally losing the ability to feel it. He can, of course, be cautious, wary, and act with deliberation. He can certainly weigh costs and benefits and decide that retreat is a good idea.

But he's not able to be afraid.

He actually does find this a bit unsettling and worrisome. Not frightening, of course, but he is vaguely concerned that this is not healthy.

Lord Torath
2015-04-15, 03:22 PM
Pretty sure that was meant as two separate examples, not one.

1. Flint's gonna get killed if I don't go help him out!
2. That dragon's really big and powerful, but if I hide, he won't find me, and I'll be able to touch a dragon egg. How cool is that!

Although Lord Torath can clear up what he meant there.Got it in one.

I was coming up with different, unconnected examples of kender behavior (specifically thinking of Flint fighting draconians).

Coidzor
2015-04-15, 09:34 PM
Kender actually believe those things, though. They honestly think that the person dropped it or lost it, or it 'fell' into their pouches, and so forth.

Yes, but the player knows exactly what they did and so do the authors, may their laundry ever have just a smidgen too much starch in it for their personal comfort. :smalltongue: And also all the more reason to not travel with or associate with Kender unless it's to roast them on a spit.


Pretty sure that was meant as two separate examples, not one.

1. Flint's gonna get killed if I don't go help him out!
2. That dragon's really big and powerful, but if I hide, he won't find me, and I'll be able to touch a dragon egg. How cool is that!

Although Lord Torath can clear up what he meant there.

It might've been, certainly, but it were ambiguous.

Also, the topic is Kender, after all.


I was coming up with different, unconnected examples of kender behavior (specifically thinking of Flint fighting draconians).

If you're referencing something that happened in the novels, just bloody well say so from the beginning, eh? :smalltongue:

Lord Torath
2015-04-16, 08:36 AM
Neither of the events actually happened in the novels, I made them both up.

saeval
2015-04-19, 12:40 AM
Kender are fearless in the majority of the dragonlance timeline. Tasslehoff, the Kender most well known, did eventually develop a good sense of fear, but it was for others, the people he cared for. He constantly reminded himself throughout the books he co-starred in, about what was counter-productive towards living a long life, and was always thinking/stating things similar to: "although it would be interesting to see if the ogre really could rip me in half, it would be rather unpleasant and I wouldn't get to see my friends anymore."

He frequently had a rather clear picture of the danger he was in, considered what was likely to happen if he screwed up, and decided the best course of action. A kender could very well decide to fight on its own against whatever odds you want it to, but in most cases, it would be able to rationalize its size and likeliness of success and find a different route. at the very least it could acknowledge that it would have a better chance of winning with its friends.

People just want to hate on Kender. If you are a fan of the series Dragonlance, and your playing in the setting, than the people interacting with the Kender understand Kender. People may get irritated with them, and they may get tossed into cells (specifically meant for rounding up kender) and kicked out of town, but nobody is genuinely screaming thief and expecting death/draconian measures in regards to a Kender.

Kender tend to de-escalate thievery scenario's by immediately giving up the item taken to the person accusing. They also genuinely believe that they were holding on to it for safe keeping/found it and was looking for its owner etc. It's when the DM takes it too far, and makes the person unreasonably angry with the kender, that stupid taunt stuff comes through... (which is really just the player and the DM fighting at this point, with a mechanic helping escalate)

in a typical -dragonlance setting- campaign, even if the kender makes someone mad, someone vouching for him/saying "look Mr. sorry, I'll get him outta your hair" is more than enough, even for an all powerful angry wizard. Taunt shouldn't be coming into effect, pretty much ever.

In my opinion, the stealing the Kender takes part in should always be done by the DM, and by nobody else, though the Player may be able to ask if he found something useful back in that mage shop/tower (in which no argument/declared theft action/taunt duel transpired) when the party is in dire straights... and the DM could make a decision then, that yes, the kender did find a magic trinket that gets them out of a jam.

Lord Raziere
2015-04-19, 12:59 AM
I'm gonna post what I posted in another thread:

ok. lets see the Kender racial traits:
*reads the dragonlance book*

everything else? fluff. sure, they lack concentration for magic and even in mechanics are completely fearless but the rest is fluff. There is no mechanical reason why a Kender can't learn to understand that stealing is wrong and such. everything fluffy is up for manipulation. since individual characters do not have to embody all the traits of their race, and in fact are better off NOT doing so as PC characters are often adventurers who are exceptions to their culture and whatnot, because people who go out into the world being heroes, fighting evil and saving people are generally not normal people at all.

therefore:
Merchant: Kender get away from my stall!
Kender: Oh, don't worry my friend! I don't do that thing. I only do that with other kender. I'm culturally sensitive don't you know! I may think it strange that you people talk about "private property" thing but if you guys consider everything you have that precious, well, I have to abide by that! Got to be tolerant of your viewpoint after all.
Merchant: Oh. well you still don't get anything unless you pay.
Kender: oh yes. That. I do keep a sizable amount of coins around! I'm not afraid of saying that it does help me deal with what you term "kleptomania" by thinking of these coins as borrow-circles. with these, as long as I talk to people before hand and they accept the borrow-circles, I can borrow anything I want forever! Really odd but thats cultural tolerance for you.
Merchant: oh while we're on the subject, what about the fear thing?
Kender: oh I know that you refer to some concept you call fear! I just don't really understand it. That thing that makes people freeze up when action needs to be done.
Merchant: yeah, but aren't there things you need to fear so that you know when to run away?
Kender: oh come now, I'm not stupid, I know that Kender + Under Dragon's Foot = Dead. I can put two and two together. Just because I stay away from the dragon's foot, doesn't mean I'm afraid of the dragon! I'm not afraid, but the world would be a far worse place without me around don't you agree? now if you'll excuse me, I need to go entertain people at a festival by juggling flaming axes while on a unicycle on a tightrope over a spiked pit so as to raise money for starving orphan children.
Merchant: wait what?
Kender: oh come now! I have compassion! You can't be good without it! Just because I don't feel fear, doesn't mean I don't feel the pain of others starving. Good day sir! *tips stylish feathered wide-brimmed hat*

Coidzor
2015-04-19, 05:50 PM
People just want to hate on Kender. If you are a fan of the series Dragonlance, and your playing in the setting, than the people interacting with the Kender understand Kender. People may get irritated with them, and they may get tossed into cells (specifically meant for rounding up kender) and kicked out of town, but nobody is genuinely screaming thief and expecting death/draconian measures in regards to a Kender.

I don't want to hate on Kender, I just recognize them as being ubiquitous in being an excuse for old school "the party Thief exists to screw over the other players" mentality that was packaged all nice and bubbly to conform to [real world banned topics] by Weis and Hickman.


Kender tend to de-escalate thievery scenario's by immediately giving up the item taken to the person accusing. They also genuinely believe that they were holding on to it for safe keeping/found it and was looking for its owner etc. It's when the DM takes it too far, and makes the person unreasonably angry with the kender, that stupid taunt stuff comes through... (which is really just the player and the DM fighting at this point, with a mechanic helping escalate)

Uh, no, it's not the DM who targets the other members of the party's magic items and loot shares, it's the kender's player doing that.


in a typical -dragonlance setting- campaign, even if the kender makes someone mad, someone vouching for him/saying "look Mr. sorry, I'll get him outta your hair" is more than enough, even for an all powerful angry wizard. Taunt shouldn't be coming into effect, pretty much ever.

The very act of choosing to play a kender is taunting one's fellow players. You're confusing in-game constructs for the behavior of the player sitting there at the table being a smarmy bastard.

Keltest
2015-04-19, 05:59 PM
I don't want to hate on Kender, I just recognize them as being ubiquitous in being an excuse for old school "the party Thief exists to screw over the other players" mentality that was packaged all nice and bubbly to conform to [real world banned topics] by Weis and Hickman.



Uh, no, it's not the DM who targets the other members of the party's magic items and loot shares, it's the kender's player doing that.



The very act of choosing to play a kender is taunting one's fellow players. You're confusing in-game constructs for the behavior of the player sitting there at the table being a smarmy bastard.

As above, it is not the fault of the Kender race if someone decides to be a jerk with their character. There are just as many ways to do so as with, say, a dumb fighter or an arrogant wizard.

Gritmonger
2015-04-19, 08:28 PM
As above, it is not the fault of the Kender race if someone decides to be a jerk with their character. There are just as many ways to do so as with, say, a dumb fighter or an arrogant wizard.

Kender by their fluff (and sometimes by their mechanics) are more prone to attract people who want to abuse the trope. Much more likely. Much more so than a dumb fighter or an arrogant wizard. Enough so that the kender fluff written by kender fans with regard to DM-ing groups suggests that having two in the same party is deliberately inviting trouble. You don't get the same notice or warning from two fighters or wizards.

Segev
2015-04-20, 07:12 AM
Uh, no, it's not the DM who targets the other members of the party's magic items and loot shares, it's the kender's player doing that.

As another poster put it, if you really want to play a Kender appropriately, it won't be the player who decides what and when the Kender PC steals something as a result of his racial kleptomania. A Kender thief may well deliberately perform thiefly functions, but he won't deliberately target his friends and allies.

The DM should be the one who handles the ubiquitous "stuff fell in my bag" trait. A Kender's player should not know what he's stolen until he opens his bag at camp that night and asks the DM about what's inside. And then he likely should be handing things he "found" that his friends were "careless" with over to them, or otherwise showing them this cool thing he acquired that is just like the one they had--oh, it IS theirs? Good thing he found it so they didn't lose it!

Any time the player says, "My character takes [x]," that should not be treated as the Kender reflexively and subconsciously pickpocketing. That's deliberate action on the Kender's part; he knows what he's doing when he does it.

Roderick_BR
2015-04-20, 01:13 PM
Oh definitely. There's no way that anyone without fear could ever become anything more than an absolute monster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin#TOC-Aura-of-Courage-Su-).
Just want to throw this one out there. My friend played a paladin, and the (low level) group was running away from an adult dragon.
"Why are you paladin running away? Is he not immune to fear?"
"He is, but he is not immune to common sense."

goto124
2015-04-20, 06:37 PM
By the holy sword, this paladin has common sense!

Sith_Happens
2015-04-20, 06:40 PM
By the holy sword, this paladin has common sense!

http://www.heromachine.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/deadpool-common-sense.jpg

Lord Raziere
2015-04-20, 06:43 PM
hm, maybe we should rewrite the Kender to be a race of Deadpools instead? like, they see through the fourth wall, are completely insane in a deadpool way and constantly make jokes people in universe don't get?

LibraryOgre
2015-04-20, 06:53 PM
hm, maybe we should rewrite the Kender to be a race of Deadpools instead? like, they see through the fourth wall, are completely insane in a deadpool way and constantly make jokes people in universe don't get?

That more or less makes them a race of player characters.

Lord Raziere
2015-04-20, 07:07 PM
That more or less makes them a race of player characters.

and what would the problem with that be?

Coidzor
2015-04-21, 12:27 AM
As above, it is not the fault of the Kender race if someone decides to be a jerk with their character. There are just as many ways to do so as with, say, a dumb fighter or an arrogant wizard.

Everyone has a choice, everything about Kender heavily weights things to play out a certain way though, because only two people want to play Kender. Hardcore Dragonlance fans and people looking for an excuse to be *****.

There really are not as many ways to play a Kender as there are a wizard or martial-type, though, since Kender are pretty well and pigeonholed.


and what would the problem with that be?

Kender aren't murderbuckety enough. They more make others want to fill their murderbuckets with them.

Forum Explorer
2015-04-21, 01:19 AM
I doubt such a person could ever be considered brave or courageous either. In my opinion anyway. To me, being courageous is having fear but not letting it control your actions. You fight the fear back and push forward. How can something that feels no fear be courageous?

Hell do they even have a fight or flight response?

Pretty much they aren't generally considered courageous or particularly brave. Except for Tasslehoff, because there are extreme situations in which even a kender might face fear.


I'd say they do, because flight or fight goes beyond fear. The flight response is merely a recognition of danger and seeking to escape it. If anything, Kender have a stronger and better flight or fight response because they react quicker and aren't panicking from it. Indeed it barely stresses them out at all in the long run.

Lord Raziere
2015-04-21, 01:30 AM
Kender aren't murderbuckety enough. They more make others want to fill their murderbuckets with them.

Which is what making them all deadpools would fix.

Sith_Happens
2015-04-21, 04:28 PM
only two people want to play Kender. Hardcore Dragonlance fans and people looking for an excuse to be *****.

What about "people trying to disprove this statement?":smalltongue:

Coidzor
2015-04-22, 01:06 PM
What about "people trying to disprove this statement?":smalltongue:

Statistically negligible, mostly because the only people who'd want to "play Kender 'right'" are Dragonlance fans.