PDA

View Full Version : DM Help Roleplaying supernatural beings of great power/ essence/ insight (And so on...)



Kol Korran
2015-04-12, 08:44 AM
In a campaign I'm running we'll soon come to the situation where the PCs meet and deal with a demon lord, a creature who is vastly older than them, who controls her own plane of existence, is the source of worship for a race of demons, plus followers of darkness, seduction and so on.

And... I have no idea how to really play her as... something which is beyond regular experience. I can't quite fathom getting into her mind to play her right, but mostly to give the experience of meeting her the feeling of meeting someone, (Or should I say some thing?) which is soooo out there?

And this is true of many of many such creatures, be they deities, demons, long living dragons, spirits or whatever... I am not talking about humanoid like gods like they do in the Forgotten Realms (Though even they, with time, should detach from the experience of basic humanity I'd think. I'm not very knowledgeable about FR)

So, I was wondering- how do you roleplay such beings? How do you deal with the disparity of experience, grandeur, theme?

Maglubiyet
2015-04-12, 09:04 AM
One thing I've found is if you underwhelm them, it can be scarier. Like if they know this is a demon lord that controls an entire plane of existence, yet she appears as an 8-year-old school girl in a flower dress, it means she is so secure in her power that she doesn't feel the need to overawe a handful of mere mortals.

Major displays of force are a sign of feelings of inadequacy.

Freelance GM
2015-04-12, 12:28 PM
One thing I've found is if you underwhelm them, it can be scarier. Like if they know this is a demon lord that controls an entire plane of existence, yet she appears as an 8-year-old school girl in a flower dress, it means she is so secure in her power that she doesn't feel the need to overawe a handful of mere mortals.

Major displays of force are a sign of feelings of inadequacy.

I second this. My party was quite surprised to discover that my setting's chaotic evil trickster deity- a terrifyingly powerful Demon Lord- prefers to appear as a dirty peasant boy. Which brings me to the next point...



So, I was wondering- how do you roleplay such beings? How do you deal with the disparity of experience, grandeur, theme?

Cheat like crazy. I don't mean by fudging dice or excessive DM fiat, but things like the being interrupting their OOC talk with lines like, "I know what you're thinking, and..."

The key is that the being has to seem all-knowing, confident, and competent. This can be done by very careful wording.

For example, the Trickster told the lost party member it would "keep him safe" until the party found him, neglecting to mention that he would use an Imprisonment spell to do so (time was different on the Trickter's plane, so it was really the only way to keep him alive.)

The main thing is avoid using the words, "maybe," "probably," or "possibly." Uncertainty will mess up the deity's apparent superiority, so if the deity doesn't know, it's generally better not to say anything. Or, if the PC's push the question, something cryptic.

That's my advice. Hopefully it'll be at least a little helpful.

The Evil DM
2015-04-14, 05:27 AM
One thing I've found is if you underwhelm them, it can be scarier. Like if they know this is a demon lord that controls an entire plane of existence, yet she appears as an 8-year-old school girl in a flower dress, it means she is so secure in her power that she doesn't feel the need to overawe a handful of mere mortals.

Major displays of force are a sign of feelings of inadequacy.

Agreed with the above and have another approach.

Super powerful demon lord just completely ignores them. The party is so weak and so petty they are little more than ants under his boot not worth his time (even if it is not true). The demon lord has an attendant who speaks for him and interacts with the players while the demon lord stares forward from his throne or continues about his business without a second thought.

You can also use the attendant as a bureaucratic barrier between the characters and the demon lord. He must be so powerful he simply doesn't have time for them. The personality of the attendant can also reflect on the lord. Is the attendant professional? Does the attendant show visible signs of abuse by his master and fear at the mention of his name?

While I agree with display of power being a sign of impotence, if a powerful being is going to display power I use the following rule of thumb.

When the time comes to display power a truly powerful being should be decisive and potent. It is going to know its opponents weaknesses and should act accordingly. Powerful beings which have made the decision to display their power are going to use it to maximum effect. Zeus throws lightning bolts for a reason.

Kol Korran
2015-04-15, 02:30 AM
The above responses deal with roleplaying the difference in power, and they give good advice. I think those will suffice.

But I'm curious about another aspect of playign these kind of beings- how do you get into their psyche/ mind frame/ way of thinking? Experience changes people, makes them more aware of the world, subtleties, depths, themselves, others, currents and more... And so the way they think often changes as well.

For example in our own world, if I'll take an example from research- a student of subject at highschool, at university, a doctorate, or front lien researcher all have vastly different points of views and even ways of thinking of the same matter. It is not just matter of knowledge, of experience, but also a matter of a developing mind, emotion, soul or whatever...

So how do you portray this is such beings? I find it immensely difficult to imagine their minds, simply because they are out of the scope of my experience. If I'll take my example- how would this demon lord, who have lived for eons, was the first succubi, managed to climb through the power struggles of demons to control her own realm, has an effect (followers and domains), of darkness, seduction and lust, and secrecy, even thinks, feels, perceive, contemplate and such?

I'd like to create the experience that the characters can appreciate and interact with some aspects of her psyche, but others might be simply, in a way, too bizarre, unfathomable and deep for them yet...

NichG
2015-04-15, 03:29 AM
Its a subtle thing to do, but I think what you really want is to make it so that in this beings' interaction with the PCs, there is absolutely no slop.

For example, there shouldn't be a simple suggestion that a PC can make knowing almost nothing of this entity's situation, and bringing no external information in that the entity is unaware of, which would change the entity's behavior or choices. If there had been such a thing, the entity already thought it, and already implemented it or decided differently. Instead, such things must correspond either to things the entity truly doesn't know, or things with respect to which the entity truly has a blind spot and is incapable of understanding at a level that goes beyond temporary confusion. This also means thinking ahead of the conversation - figure out where it's logically going to go and just assume that everyone says the things that are obvious to say, and then ask 'what's left?'. That should be the entity's first thought, because the obvious stuff is something they've long since learned how to read.

The other aspect of 'no slop' is that the entity has probably had tens of thousands of audiences with people, and after that time there's going to be a sameness of all of that. The entity will know generally how people behave and respond to different kinds of discourse, and should be able to really get at the point in a flash rather than having to feel their way there. So e.g. if a PC says something 'sloppy' like 'but do we really know...?' or 'but could it really be that way...?', or the PCs start arguing amongst themselves, the entity will be able to decide 'they are not capable of understanding this, so how do I get them to act as it is needful for them to act' or 'this is the exact thing which I can say which should make it crystal clear' or 'I will let them argue precisely because it moves the conversation in the direction I want' or things like that.

Basically, many things are going to have been repeated so many times in that entity's experience that they know exactly how they tend to go, and as such there will be much less actual thoughtfulness needed to figure out what to say or do, but a lot more very precise pacing of what is said and when. If you can get that down, the impression it can give is of someone who says little, but everything they say is very poignant or momentous - like everything that's confusing to you is something they figured out eons ago, and they were watching your mind get to the cusp of understanding and knew just what to say to push it over.

Alternately, they could be so distant from the details of things that they seem completely capricious, careless, or tangential. They ignore the debate about how to stop the necromancer from raising an undead army in favor of chatting about the right color combination for the warrior's armor because they've seen ten necromancers raise undead armies in the past and dozens of strategy discussions each time, and they know that their input into the conversation on matters of import is basically irrelevant because the conclusion is always the same - so you might as well talk about something else instead.

Obsession is another characteristic you can play on. This is a being who has been alive for a very long time, so things in their life either bore them or have remained worthwhile even after the millennia. If they're still interested in a thing after that much time, they're probably extremely intensely interested in it. And, much like the 'no slop' aspect, whatever holds their interest for so long should be very non-trivial - either because there isn't an obvious way that it can be perfected/concluded, because its a truly difficult/rare/etc thing, or because it's something which actually truly takes that long to come to fruition (such as growing a civilization from the ground up like someone would trim a bonsai).

Maglubiyet
2015-04-15, 07:56 AM
So how do you portray this is such beings? I find it immensely difficult to imagine their minds, simply because they are out of the scope of my experience. If I'll take my example- how would this demon lord, who have lived for eons, was the first succubi, managed to climb through the power struggles of demons to control her own realm, has an effect (followers and domains), of darkness, seduction and lust, and secrecy, even thinks, feels, perceive, contemplate and such?

I'd like to create the experience that the characters can appreciate and interact with some aspects of her psyche, but others might be simply, in a way, too bizarre, unfathomable and deep for them yet...

I don't think we're capable of knowing exactly how such a being would think (and we probably don't want to!) We can extrapolate based on our own experiences, but mere decades of living can't compare to millenia.

One thing, as NichG said in so many words, is that she would be able to read the PC's like a simplistic children's book. Everything they did would be so obvious to her. She could play them however she wanted, make them believe anything she wanted.

Because of that she might come across as shockingly normal. Maybe it's in her best interest to make them think she's somewhat naive and needs their help. They might see her as just another powerful, but "human" ruler with foibles they can relate to. But she won't even bother to interact with the PC's unless she needs something from them, in which case she'll be whoever she needs them to think she is.

Gritmonger
2015-04-15, 09:18 AM
Alternately, such a being could be used to centuries of yes-men and blind obedience, so any questioning or asking for clarification or outright refusal to acquiesce to their wishes could be met alternately with disbelief and confusion or with an obsessive desire to understand these non-subservient things.

Think George Lucas when he started making "Episode I" and nobody spoke up and said: "Jar Jar Binks? Really?!?" A corruption of a creative soul by a lack of challenge or opposition.

Red Fel
2015-04-15, 09:57 AM
But I'm curious about another aspect of playign these kind of beings- how do you get into their psyche/ mind frame/ way of thinking? Experience changes people, makes them more aware of the world, subtleties, depths, themselves, others, currents and more... And so the way they think often changes as well.

There are several methods to it. One is to take whatever concept such a being embodies and to make it permeate everything. For example, if this is an ancient demon, and demons in your setting are violent and bloodthirsty, you can project a constant air of menace, as if everything this being does and says involves her consideration as to whether it would be easier for her to simply dismember the PCs.

Another is to emphasize their age and wisdom. As observed:


One thing, as NichG said in so many words, is that she would be able to read the PC's like a simplistic children's book. Everything they did would be so obvious to her. She could play them however she wanted, make them believe anything she wanted.

To take that a step further. Think about it this way. As we age, we experience time differently, at a more rapid pace. We also learn to refine our information filters - picking through what we see and hear and filtering out the extraneous bits. This is a being that has lived for longer than the modernity of human existence. Presenting her as infinitely patient, due to the fact that she has endured and will continue to do so, doubles as overwhelming confidence and superiority. As mentioned, she can pick apart an interaction like a bird sifting through soil.

But the mentality? That's simpler. Start at the roots. What was she in the beginning? The very beginning, I mean. Was she an ordinary demon, who gradually achieved power and ultimately apotheosis? Or was she created with her authority already vested?

If the former, that's her core. She always was a demon; now she's simply a demon archetype. At her core, she will be like them, but tempered with near-infinite power, wisdom, experience. Look at the person she was, and look at what she did to get where she is now; you have just stumbled upon her values and her priorities, in a nutshell. If the latter, she was created to be a deity. She will be fairly unchanged over the aeons, but more importantly, she will be burdened with glorious purpose. Unlike a mortal who ultimately achieves apotheosis, and is thus simply a person with added powers, a god-from-the-start is generally created with some function in mind; this one would likely have that purpose as her core.

So, step one is determining her core personality. After that, layer it. And that's not unlike aging a person upwards. Just like an ordinary person is changed by events in their life - childhood, education, work, love - so too can you shape this being's life. But unlike an ordinary person, she has endured multiple lifetimes. This means two things.

First, it means that things rarely affect her. Think of what happens when a person steps on an anthill. For the ants, that's a calamity - months of work ruined, countless lives crushed in a moment. For the person, it's not even an afterthought. She is the person, we the ants.

Second, it means that when things do affect her, she takes notice in a big way. It would have to be something major. Consider the anthill-stepper in the above situation. Consider what it would take to affect that person. Maybe a thunderstorm. Now imagine how that affects the ants.

Now, onto personality. Being a nigh-eternal being of unspeakable power, there's very little the PCs could do to threaten her or cause her concern. By way of comparison, imagine if your pet cat requested an audience with you. Ignoring for a moment your surprise at a talking cat (and perhaps she lost track of mortal development, and finds it amusing that they're sufficiently advanced as to be polite), you'd probably find it adorable. Amusing. In all likelihood, the cat's conversation would be simple, its thoughts and desires lacking in profundity or gravity. Those matters which seem to it of grave importance - the quality of its bed padding, the inconsistent availability of tuna as opposed to kibble - would seem to you trifles, barely of consequence. If it became insistent, you would grow understandably irritated - this cat doesn't even work, for goodness' sake! It doesn't contribute to household income! It exists to be petted, fed, and occasionally ignored. You even have to shovel its poop from time to time! And here it is, making demands of you?

As you can see, one of the best ways to establish that personality is through reaction. Quiet confidence, mild amusement, to start with. Mild surprise if the PCs show themselves to be anything more than insects. Mild irritation if they forget their station.

They're kittens, and she's a thunderstorm. Try working from there.

Cealocanth
2015-04-15, 04:44 PM
If you are more inclined to put a little bit of humanity into your omnipotent being, perhaps consider that after some point, curious or innovative creatures will have a compulsion to explore and to learn. What can someone learn when they have learned literally everything? There isn't anything, really, but you can pretend. A creature that has been around for so unbelievably long may decide to deliberately ignore information or events, well knowing what the consequences are, as a challenge to those they view as beneath them. If what they are doing is really pointless in the being's, then why not have some fun with them?

It has been suggested above that you make some sort of middleman or messenger to this creature. Perhaps your demonic goddess may decide to play the role of her own messenger in the form of a meager succubus. She's used to it, and she knows everything there is to know about it, but it's fun to deceive the players, watching them go on a long and epic journey to simply meet their deaths at the end, in the same way that it's fun for some to watch ants travel across a lawn to reach a jellybean you planted there. They're not doing anything for you, but you can share in their victory or their defeat, which is at least a little stimulating.

Of course, this isn't the godlike being sitting on a throne. To a truly omnipotent creature, even ruling is completely boring. This is the god that buys a tavern and tries to encourage adventurers to attack the gods, all to see what it would do to society. To something like this, the only fun thing would be to play games with self-imposed rules, because only by restricting themselves could they actually experience the thrill of success or the heartache of loss.

goto124
2015-04-15, 07:12 PM
If I step on an anthill, the ants crawl all over my legs!

If I'm a level 1 AD&D wizard, kittens are deadly!

...sorry. Do carry on.

Kol Korran
2015-04-18, 11:17 AM
Its a subtle thing to do, but I think what you really want is to make it so that in this beings' interaction with the PCs, there is absolutely no slop.
.....

Alternately, they could be so distant from the details of things that they seem completely capricious, careless, or tangential. They ignore the debate about how to stop the necromancer from raising an undead army in favor of chatting about the right color combination for the warrior's armor...

Obsession is another characteristic you can play on...
Hey NichG, again, excellent advice! I think I can implement these ideas. The only thing I have a problem with is "knowing the possible outcomes of conversation in advance". I understand the being would, but as a DM whose players surprise him frequently enough, I'm not sure I could bring that effect into the game, but I will try.

Thanks a lot about the ideas, would certainly come into the game! :smallwink:


Alternately, such a being could be used to centuries of yes-men and blind obedience, so any questioning or asking for clarification or outright refusal to acquiesce to their wishes could be met alternately with disbelief and confusion or with an obsessive desire to understand these non-subservient things.

Think George Lucas when he started making "Episode I" and nobody spoke up and said: "Jar Jar Binks? Really?!?" A corruption of a creative soul by a lack of challenge or opposition.
The idea of Yes men feels that it can work for some such beings, though not this particular one, who is supposed to be very crafty and trickery. Good idea though, would definitely fit another kind of a similar being.


There are several methods to it. One is to take whatever concept such a being embodies and to make it permeate everything...

But the mentality? That's simpler. Start at the roots...

So, step one is determining her core personality. After that, layer it. And that's not unlike aging a person upwards...

<Ant hill analogy and kitten analogy>

...establish that personality is through reaction...

They're kittens, and she's a thunderstorm. Try working from there. That was bloody excellent! Thanks a lot! I will try to layer her and get to her psyche in such a manner. Much appreciated Red Fel! :smallamused:


If you are more inclined to put a little bit of humanity into your omnipotent being, perhaps consider that after some point, curious or innovative creatures will have a compulsion to explore and to learn.

I quite liked this idea, and would maybe keep it in the background, coming to the fore once the party does things that genuinely intrigue her. It may make her slightly more... personable, relateable, but from a great distance...
------------------------------------------------
Thanks all for the replies!