That DM thread again

[Invader]

Constantly complains my crusader is way over powered. Can't believe I did 56 damage at 11th lvl with divine surge to an elder earth elemental, ToB is broken! Sees no problem his 11th lvl mystic theurge casts banishment off a scroll with no spellcraft check but somehow still banishes a 24hd elemental. Claims to know all the rules and when I constantly point out all rules he's getting wrong claims "they must have changed that from 3rd" :smallconfused:

[Crake]

Constantly complains my crusader is way over powered. Can't believe I did 46 damage at 11th lvl with divine surge to an elder earth elemental, ToB is broken! Sees no problem his 11th lvl mystic theurge casts banishment off a scroll with no spellcraft check but somehow still banishes a 24hd elemental. Claims to know all the rules and when I constantly point out all rules he's getting wrong claims "they must have changed that from 3rd" :smallconfused:

Emphasis mine. Does your DM have a mystic theurge DMPC that he fiats to autopass things? That's a red flag in my opinion.

[Invader]

Emphasis mine. Does your DM have a mystic theurge DMPC that he fiats to autopass things? That's a red flag in my opinion.

Yes, also the story somehow seems to revolve around him...

[Invader]

Also prepares all blasting spells and thinks monks are really powerful past 12th lvl. He's pretty much the antithesis of this forum lol.

[Karl Aegis]

46 damage seems really low to me.

[YossarianLives]

Are you asking for advice or sympathy?

[Invader]

46 damage seems really low to me.

You're right it was 56, that was a miss type on my part, fixed it, but still lol...

This was after I missed on my first divine surge attempt doing no damage at all.

[Crake]

Yes, also the story somehow seems to revolve around him...

It is worth noting that banishment is irrelevant to HD, you're thinking of dismissal, in which the DC is modified by the target's HD and your CL. Against the minimum DC of banishment (either DC19 or 20, depending on if it was the divine or arcane version) the elemental (with it's measly +10 will) is sporting a pretty decent 40-45% chance of failure, and with each item presented that is opposing to that creature (not too hard to find for an earth elemental), then that improves by 10%. So it failing the save isn't that unexpected.

It is also worth noting that with arcane disciple, you can take 10 on casterlevel check (which is actually what you need to cast from a scroll, not spellcraft checks), which happens to let you be able to cast scrolls 9CL higher than your own without even rolling a dice.

So yeah, in retrospect, none of that is actually that huge of a deal. Considering an elder earth elemental is a CR appropriate challenge, wasting a scroll of banishment on it was probably not even necessary, though I think I've gone off topic a bit.

[Invader]

Are you asking for advice or sympathy?

Just venting :smallsmile:

[Invader]

It is worth noting that banishment is irrelevant to HD, you're thinking of dismissal, in which the DC is modified by the target's HD and your CL. Against the minimum DC of banishment (either DC19 or 20, depending on if it was the divine or arcane version) the elemental (with it's measly +10 will) is sporting a pretty decent 40-45% chance of failure, and with each item presented that is opposing to that creature (not too hard to find for an earth elemental), then that improves by 10%. So it failing the save isn't that unexpected.

It is also worth noting that with arcane disciple, you can take 10 on casterlevel check (which is actually what you need to cast from a scroll, not spellcraft checks), which happens to let you be able to cast scrolls 9CL higher than your own without even rolling a dice.

So yeah, in retrospect, none of that is actually that huge of a deal. Considering an elder earth elemental is a CR appropriate challenge, wasting a scroll of banishment on it was probably not even necessary, though I think I've gone off topic a bit.

The banishment im looking at says 2hd per caster lvl can be banished.

And unless you use read magic you have to make a spellcraft 20+spell lvl to read it off a scroll and he didn't burn a round casting read magic.

And definitely no arcane disciple.

[Boci]

The banishment im looking at says 2hd per caster lvl can be banished.

And unless you use read magic you have to make a spellcraft 20+spell lvl to read it off a scroll and he did burn a round casting read magic.

So it was a 12 level spell? As for the UMD thing, its possibly that got fudged, but its also possible he could automatically get a 26. 14 for ranks + 1 (minimum roll), at level 11 getting another 11 in there isn't that difficult. Say, +2 for charisma, +2 for synergy, +5 for a magical item, and then another +2 from circlet of persuasion.

Sounds like something is going on, but it may not be that bad.

[Invader]

So it was a 12 level spell? As for the UMD thing, its possibly that got fudged, but its also possible he could automatically get a 27. 14 for ranks + 1 (minimum roll), at level 11 getting another 12 in there isn't that difficult.

Sounds like something is going on, but it may not be that bad.

It's not so much he couldn't make, it's that he didn't even have to try.

[Boci]

It's not so much he couldn't make, it's that he didn't even have to try.

Its possibly he can auto pass though. Its DC 26 to activate a scroll of banishment. 14 for ranks + 1 (minimum roll), then say, +2 for charisma, +2 for synergy, +5 for a magical item, and then another +3 from circlet of persuasion. Minimum result: 27. No point in rolling.

[Invader]

Its possibly he can auto pass though. Its DC 26 to activate a scroll of banishment. 14 for ranks + 1 (minimum roll), then say, +2 for charisma, +2 for synergy, +5 for a magical item, and then another +2 from circlet of persuasion. Minimum result: 26. No point in rolling.

Right but I know for a fact he doesn't have any bonuses from magical items. He doesn't optimize that way. It's just one example I used of poor system mastery. I also had to put up with

Provoking when I 5ft step
30ft radius standard fireballs
Only being able to tumble 5ft
Open/close spell unlocking doors
Tried saying the bard had to have line of sight for inspire courage
Standard reach weapons threatening adjacent squares
Can't reach adjacent diagonal square
Each diagonal movement is 10ft
Etc etc.
And these aren't any kind of house rules or anything.

[pwcsponson]

Right but I know for a fact he doesn't have any bonuses from magical items. He doesn't optimize that way. It's just one example I used of poor system mastery. I also had to put up with

Provoking when I 5ft step
30ft radius standard fireballs
Only being able to tumble 5ft
Open/close spell unlocking doors
Tried saying the bard had to have line of sight for inspire courage
Standard reach weapons threatening adjacent squares
Can't reach adjacent diagonal square
Each diagonal movement is 10ft
Etc etc.
And these aren't any kind of house rules or anything.

Sounds like he's making up these rules as they come up simply to screw the party over. Sounds like he wants to win DnD. I mean it says it right in the tumble rules that you tumble half your speed. Why would the bard require line of sight for sound? It's not even listed as a spread! Fireballs explicitly state it's area effect and it's specifically not a variable. This isn't poor system mastery. It's ignorant system mastery.

I advise that if you cannot communicate the point that what he's doing is ridiculous, then you stop playing with him. Because there's nothing to play but his ego.

[atemu1234]

Sounds like he's making up these rules as they come up simply to screw the party over. Sounds like he wants to win DnD. I mean it says it right in the tumble rules that you tumble half your speed. Why would the bard require line of sight for sound? It's not even listed as a spread! Fireballs explicitly state it's area effect and it's specifically not a variable. This isn't poor system mastery. It's ignorant system mastery.

I advise that if you cannot communicate the point that what he's doing is ridiculous, then you stop playing with him. Because there's nothing to play but his ego.

No gaming is better than bad gaming, no gaming is better than bad gaming

[RedMage125]

Emphasis mine. Does your DM have a mystic theurge DMPC that he fiats to autopass things? That's a red flag in my opinion.


Yes, also the story somehow seems to revolve around him...

Honestly, this is the only red flag you need. You should talk with your DM or leave the group.

One of the most grievous sins a DM can commit, IMHO, is making a game wherein he and his NPCs are the stars of the show and not the PCs. That's not to say that there should not be important NPCs, or even that DMPCs are always bad 9they are not), but bottom line: PCs should be in the spotlight. No one wants to play DnD to sit at a table and watch the DM have his DMPC fight his NPC while they sit down and twiddle their thumbs.

My suggestions to you are, in order:
1) Talk to him (out of game) about the way the game is being run. How the rules are not being adhered to, and most importantly, how you feel like he's trying to make his DMPC the star of the show. It helps if you have also talked with the other players and they feel the same. Story reasons may necessitate starting over a whole new game and story with new characters.

Failing that:
2) Offer to be the DM yourself. Neither you nor the other players should ever have to suffer a DM who just wants an audience while he plays out some ego fantasy. You can still let this guy play, but for crying out loud, get him out from behind the Dm screen where he clearly has no business being.

As a last resort:
3) Leave the game. because you really tried everything else to make it work.

[Sith_Happens]

Emphasis mine. Does your DM have a mystic theurge DMPC that he fiats to autopass things? That's a red flag in my opinion.


Yes, also the story somehow seems to revolve around him...


Right but I know for a fact he doesn't have any bonuses from magical items. He doesn't optimize that way. It's just one example I used of poor system mastery. I also had to put up with

Provoking when I 5ft step
30ft radius standard fireballs
Only being able to tumble 5ft
Open/close spell unlocking doors
Tried saying the bard had to have line of sight for inspire courage
Standard reach weapons threatening adjacent squares
Can't reach adjacent diagonal square
Each diagonal movement is 10ft
Etc etc.
And these aren't any kind of house rules or anything.

http://33.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ly5opymBsO1qa9jn1o2_250.gif

[Geddy2112]

I don't think you should leave the game just yet. I think you have Hanlon's razor: the DM is not trying to be bad, they just have no idea what they are doing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor

Spend an entire session reading the core rulebook together, so everybody is clear on the rules.

Granted, if your DM has no interest in putting in the due diligence to read the rulebook and just wants to fiat things left and right, you probably should leave.

[daremetoidareyo]

Honestly, this is the only red flag you need. You should talk with your DM or leave the group.

One of the most grievous sins a DM can commit, IMHO, is making a game wherein he and his NPCs are the stars of the show and not the PCs. That's not to say that there should not be important NPCs, or even that DMPCs are always bad 9they are not), but bottom line: PCs should be in the spotlight. No one wants to play DnD to sit at a table and watch the DM have his DMPC fight his NPC while they sit down and twiddle their thumbs.

My suggestions to you are, in order:
1) Talk to him (out of game) about the way the game is being run. How the rules are not being adhered to, and most importantly, how you feel like he's trying to make his DMPC the star of the show. It helps if you have also talked with the other players and they feel the same. Story reasons may necessitate starting over a whole new game and story with new characters.

Failing that:
2) Offer to be the DM yourself. Neither you nor the other players should ever have to suffer a DM who just wants an audience while he plays out some ego fantasy. You can still let this guy play, but for crying out loud, get him out from behind the Dm screen where he clearly has no business being.

As a last resort:
3) Leave the game. because you really tried everything else to make it work.

Penultimate resort to leaving the game. Coup de grace the DMPC in his sleep and then try to survive as long as possible by rules lawyering. Then post the video on youtube.

This is also known as the "bad option, really bad option, nonetheless fun to think about."