D&D 3.5 question, Can someone else make you a Lich?

[Mazic]

As stated at the title line. I am having a dilemma of trying to make a few 'hero level' monsters to fight my group. I already have a Death Knight prepared, and I am thinking of making a powerful Undead Spellcaster. So I was reading through and saw that I wanted to possibly go with a Lich or a Vampire, Lich looking nicer as it has less of a LA jump. Lich being a +4 opposed to vampires +8. Anyway back to the question.

Monster Manual states only that the person making the Phylactery has to be a caster level of at least 11th, but does not say that the person becoming the lich does. So lets say their is a powerful necromancer who wants to have a few Liches on his side and makes a few of his followers do the ritual. Could he in fact force his level 1 wizard, cleric, possibly even rogue and fight pals to become liches and make their Phylactery.

Part of me for flavor wants to say yes it is possible only because, well it is a cool idea of having someones soul ripped from their body and forced to do as requested to a overlord holding you wedding ring that now holds your soul in it. But I want to see what people Globally might say.

[Karl Aegis]

I would say no due to the "can only be undertaken by a willing character" clause.

[Mazic]

Alright, so if someone was willing or tricking into being willing. Domination is a thing as well. But say it was willing? Would something like that be allowed? If willing is the only issue.

[Crake]

Alright, so if someone was willing or tricking into being willing. Domination is a thing as well. But say it was willing? Would something like that be allowed? If willing is the only issue.

The section on making a phylactery does say "Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher." I suppose this doesn't negate the possibility that the lich could have someone else help them with the crafting, but at the most, they would only be able to supply the craft wondrous item feat, because it quite clearly says that the lich must at least have a caster level of 11 or higher.

[Afgncaap5]

Alright, so if someone was willing or tricking into being willing. Domination is a thing as well. But say it was willing? Would something like that be allowed? If willing is the only issue.

I don't think so. Domination or Trickery are usually things that don't work for rituals that require "willingness." Basically, becoming a lich is an unspeakably and unquestionably evil act for behind-the-scenes lore reasons that aren't thoroughly explored, but if at any point you introduce an element that takes away a character's uncertainty about embracing evil for the sake of the ritual then I don't think the process works.

Now what *would* work would be for you to use Lichlings. They're not in the SRD or Monster Manual, or any WotC material, or any material that I've ever seen, but they're basically the same template that doesn't have that exact lore. The lore in this case would be something like "Poor souls, tricked and trapped into undeath and dark service by a powerful, evil spellcaster." (In fact, I started this paragraph kinda tongue in cheek, but the more I think about it the more I think that this is basically what the Ring Wraiths are.)

[Shoat]

Alright, so if someone was willing or tricking into being willing. Domination is a thing as well. But say it was willing? Would something like that be allowed? If willing is the only issue.

It sounds like it was never intended to happen.
I, personally, would rule no* regardless of whether someone finds a gap in the rules that would allow it, because liches are lore-wise supposed to be really good spellcasters themselves (and the advantages they offer are ludicrously good for anyone who isn't already a high-level spellcaster).


There are plenty of other interesting and powerful undead available to make into minions.
You already gave your powerful necromancer a Death Knight as a servant, so now you should give that Death Knight General an Army (Mummies/Ghouls/Awakened Skeletons with class levels/lesser vamps) to command (and possibly a vampire as a sub-commander/advisor).




*If I wanted a specific story scenario such as the one you describe in your first post's last paragraph, I'd specifically design a "lesser lich" (who was a low-level spellcaster who had his soul ripped out and phylacteried).
Allowing the creation of infinite full-power liches by the hand of a single powerful spellcaster who has acolytes/cultists/students available is going to go completely out of hand both RP-wise and balance-wise.

[Lorddenorstrus]

I don't think so. Domination or Trickery are usually things that don't work for rituals that require "willingness." Basically, becoming a lich is an unspeakably and unquestionably evil act for behind-the-scenes lore reasons that aren't thoroughly explored, but if at any point you introduce an element that takes away a character's uncertainty about embracing evil for the sake of the ritual then I don't think the process works.

Now what *would* work would be for you to use Lichlings. They're not in the SRD or Monster Manual, or any WotC material, or any material that I've ever seen, but they're basically the same template that doesn't have that exact lore. The lore in this case would be something like "Poor souls, tricked and trapped into undeath and dark service by a powerful, evil spellcaster." (In fact, I started this paragraph kinda tongue in cheek, but the more I think about it the more I think that this is basically what the Ring Wraiths are.)

Speaking of that... I actually got into an argument with one of my players of Lichs and the Good Lich template from Libris Mortis.. Apparently that one line of Lichs being evil no matter what for unexplained reasons over rides Good lichs existence. And the only reason GL was wrote was to satisfy players.

That aside @ OP. I would suggest just rewriting Lich if you have to, so that a powerful person could do that to others. I've done so before when it was part of a story. The experienced players always asked me how such weaker spellcasters met the requirements to be lichs. To which i responded how do your characters even have a bloody clue what the requirements to be a lich are?

[Mazic]

Well the original idea is Undead Apocalypse. Death Knight raised to kill for Nerull, the spellcaster is more of another intelligent undead assisting for it's own purpose. The army is large forces of skeletons, elephant skeletons acting as siege machines. The ribs were going to be made into a cage that would be opened to release 5-8 zombies and skeletons once they were passed the walls. There would be more to the army but that is the first few waves to a mountain monastery for monks.

[Blackhawk748]

Technically no, sadly. But i see no reason why not, also if your worried about "infinite powerful undead" remember that Phylacteries are freaking expensive, so i doubt a powerful Lich would make more than a few. Also it just says CL 11, it doesnt say for what, just CL 11 and CWI, which we agree that another mage could probably supply. So if you have an SLA you just need it to be cast at CL 11 or be lvl 11 (if it increases with level), so a Tiefling or Aasimar could do this as could Duergar and several other races.

If you dont like this interpretation, think of it this way. If you dont rule that SLA CL counts, then Warlocks cant be Liches which i feel would be lame.

[Seclora]

I wrote a book about this once actually.

Pretty sure that you aren't supposed to be able to do that, and it would be the rare wizard/caster/nutter who'd even want to try, let alone actually pull it off. But you're the DM so the answer, whatever anyone else might say is automatically 'yes you can'.

But let's ignore the rules, because becoming a Lich is not about rules. (It's actually directly breaking certain universal laws and pretty consistently pisses off an inevitable somewhere.) No, Liches are about -Narrative-. And I know of two cases that would offer credence to the idea of being made an indestructible entity without the subject in question having the power to make that happen.

The first is a Greek Myth, in which a man is rendered invincible when his mother takes an object(a log) out of a fire after being informed that her son will die when it is fully consumed in the fire. She locks it in a chest and as long as it is kept from burning, the boy cannot be killed. He never even knows the log exists, but his life is bound to it.

The second is a little closer to the playground. And I literally mean The Playground, because the lich is XYKON. Redcloak posits the idea and from what I remember of Start of Darkness, he did most of the work too. Yes, Xykon qualified(he's mentioned crafting, and he's definitely a sufficiently powerful caster) but the work does not appear to have been his own. Therefore it could be concluded that the phylactery and Lichification process need not be done by the caster themselves.


So yeah, take the poorly defined process and do whatever you want with it. It'll be fun, your players will love it!

[Afgncaap5]

I wrote a book about this once actually.

Pretty sure that you aren't supposed to be able to do that, and it would be the rare wizard/caster/nutter who'd even want to try, let alone actually pull it off. But you're the DM so the answer, whatever anyone else might say is automatically 'yes you can'.

But let's ignore the rules, because becoming a Lich is not about rules. (It's actually directly breaking certain universal laws and pretty consistently pisses off an inevitable somewhere.) No, Liches are about -Narrative-. And I know of two cases that would offer credence to the idea of being made an indestructible entity without the subject in question having the power to make that happen.

The first is a Greek Myth, in which a man is rendered invincible when his mother takes an object(a log) out of a fire after being informed that her son will die when it is fully consumed in the fire. She locks it in a chest and as long as it is kept from burning, the boy cannot be killed. He never even knows the log exists, but his life is bound to it.

The second is a little closer to the playground. And I literally mean The Playground, because the lich is XYKON. Redcloak posits the idea and from what I remember of Start of Darkness, he did most of the work too. Yes, Xykon qualified(he's mentioned crafting, and he's definitely a sufficiently powerful caster) but the work does not appear to have been his own. Therefore it could be concluded that the phylactery and Lichification process need not be done by the caster themselves.


So yeah, take the poorly defined process and do whatever you want with it. It'll be fun, your players will love it!

I heard something like that Greeky myth once, though it was Norse and about a guy who would live as long as a candle never burned out. Wonder if there's a rooting connection, or if it's just a coincidence.

I think one of the great things about GitP is that it's written for an understanding of what sorts of rules it's okay to bend or break and which one's it's better to keep steady. I'd prefer for a player to make their own phylacteries, but there's just something awesome about an NPC villain's backstory including a goblin-forged relic that makes him nigh-unkillable. (See also: potion of glibness.)


Speaking of that... I actually got into an argument with one of my players of Lichs and the Good Lich template from Libris Mortis.. Apparently that one line of Lichs being evil no matter what for unexplained reasons over rides Good lichs existence. And the only reason GL was wrote was to satisfy players.

I'd disagree with you, personally. Liches in general, and good liches in particular, are good story hooks. It'd work better for some liches than others. If the lich process sort of freezes the soul at a moment of unatonable evil, you'll probably not be seeing many GLs from that method. If another setting uses a lich process that allows for more growth after the fact, though, one where the soul isn't hardened in place, I could see a lich becoming repentant and working to turn back to good. But, again, that's up to the setting, up to the method of lichification, and up to the story.

I think the only thing I'd be sternly opposed to, even for a player's story purposes, would be someone becoming a lich and being good from the get-go.

[OldTrees1]

There is a lich in Faerun that was granted lichdom without their knowledge by their mentor(also a lich).

There are several other liches in Faerun that accepted lichdom under mundane coercion(do this as proof of loyalty or die) by another lich.

While this does not work by RAW, it has been done before in the literature and as DM you can do so as well.

[Tvtyrant]

There was a Forgotten Realms Lich Edit: Named Wulgreth created by Karsus dumping Heavy Magic on him by accident, which acted like an almighty energy drain and causing him to come back as a Lich.

[SinsI]

Depending on definition of "you", you can be made into a Psionic Lich by using Mind Switch power: he switches into your body, creates a phylactery for "himself", and switches back.

[Mr Adventurer]

Other options include:

- use a Ghoul instead
- using the Gravetouched Ghoul template from Libris Mortis
- using the Skeletal template from the Book of Vile Darkness
- using a Necropolitan, also Libris Mortis IIRC

Also, something from your original post: you mention LA. This isn't important for NPC antagonists; you only need to worry about their Challenge Rating (CR), which can be calculated separately.

[ShurikVch]

Suel Lich (Dr#339) - incorporeal lich without the phylactery; should possess living creatures or would be destroyed; created via exposing to the Rain of Colorless Fire
Dracolich - I'm pretty sure Cult of the Dragon made some without asking permission
Lichfiend (Dungeon #116) - unlike version from the Libris Mortis, this one doesn't have phylactery - instead, his soul belong to some powerful Archfiend, so Lichfiend will be restored again and again, as long as his evil master wish so

[DrMotives]

I haven't seen this in 3e, but there was something in 2e called the vassalich, from Van Ritchen's Guide to the Lich. It allowed for a lower level spellcaster to pledge themselves into a lich's service and go through the ritual suicide potion and rebirth as a lich, but the soul of the vassalich was housed in the master lich's phylactery. The master lich had total control of the life of the vassal, but if the vassal could become high enough level they could in theory make their own phylactery. The thing is, to transefer themselves into the new phylactery required either the master's consent (highly unlikely) or the master's phylactery being destroyed while the vassal's body and new phylactery remains intact, thus promoting the vassalich to full lichdom.

[Th3N3xtGuy]

As stated at the title line. I am having a dilemma of trying to make a few 'hero level' monsters to fight my group. I already have a Death Knight prepared, and I am thinking of making a powerful Undead Spellcaster. So I was reading through and saw that I wanted to possibly go with a Lich or a Vampire, Lich looking nicer as it has less of a LA jump. Lich being a +4 opposed to vampires +8. Anyway back to the question.

Monster Manual states only that the person making the Phylactery has to be a caster level of at least 11th, but does not say that the person becoming the lich does. So lets say their is a powerful necromancer who wants to have a few Liches on his side and makes a few of his followers do the ritual. Could he in fact force his level 1 wizard, cleric, possibly even rogue and fight pals to become liches and make their Phylactery.

Part of me for flavor wants to say yes it is possible only because, well it is a cool idea of having someones soul ripped from their body and forced to do as requested to a overlord holding you wedding ring that now holds your soul in it. But I want to see what people Globally might say.

Lich's officially are willingly do it. But you can DM in any house rules, your god of that world. Death Knights can be forced and same with Vamps. From what I understand about necros is that they would make themselves liches before others.

[Judge_Worm]

IIRC dracolich explicitly allows it.

Otherwise mind switch> become lich> mind switch back

Edit-
Otherwise mindrape> thought bottle> become lich> level drain> mindrape back

[Urpriest]

As stated at the title line. I am having a dilemma of trying to make a few 'hero level' monsters to fight my group. I already have a Death Knight prepared, and I am thinking of making a powerful Undead Spellcaster. So I was reading through and saw that I wanted to possibly go with a Lich or a Vampire, Lich looking nicer as it has less of a LA jump. Lich being a +4 opposed to vampires +8. Anyway back to the question.

Monster Manual states only that the person making the Phylactery has to be a caster level of at least 11th, but does not say that the person becoming the lich does. So lets say their is a powerful necromancer who wants to have a few Liches on his side and makes a few of his followers do the ritual. Could he in fact force his level 1 wizard, cleric, possibly even rogue and fight pals to become liches and make their Phylactery.

Part of me for flavor wants to say yes it is possible only because, well it is a cool idea of having someones soul ripped from their body and forced to do as requested to a overlord holding you wedding ring that now holds your soul in it. But I want to see what people Globally might say.

Why would that matter? You're making NPCs, not PCs, there's no reason to think LA has anything to do with it.

[Maglubiyet]

It's your world.

[atemu1234]

There was a Forgotten Realms Lich Edit: Named Wulgreth created by Karsus dumping Heavy Magic on him by accident, which acted like an almighty energy drain and causing him to come back as a Lich.

So with some research, maybe it is possible.