I need a spell to either raise land or create land somehow

[felinoel]

I need a spell to either raise land or create land somehow.
I don't care if the land is raised, created from nothingness, or just teleported from somewhere else.

I want to make an island in Conqueror's Bay because a party member coup'd his way into owning Karpad and that is relatively near Karpad.

... lol

[sleepyphoenixx]

On the scale you're talking about that's probably epic magic. There's even an epic spell for that, but it sucks so you'll want to develop a better one if you go that way.

Otherwise you're pretty much stuck using instantaneous conjurations (like Wall of Stone) and dumping the resulting material into the sea until it makes an island. Better get comfortable, that's going to take time.

Sadly most of the really big instantaneuous, material-leaving creation spells create either water, ice or snow, which doesn't help much with island building.

Ring of Fire (EoE) may work since it basically creates a small volcano and the lava stays. It requires a lot of DM adjudication though. It's also a 9th level spell.
Deadfall (SpC) creates permanent, nonmagical wood. Not what you're looking for, but notable.
Bones of the Earth (PHB2) creates a 5x20ft pillar of rock on any rock surface, so you could stack those.
Mudslide (Storm) creates a 40ft radius spread of 10ft deep mud, which you could then transmute into rock.
Wall of Stone (PHB) creates solid stone, but it's just a few inches thick so the quantity is rather less than what we'd like for speedy island raising.
True Creation (SpC) creates only 1 cubic ft/level and costs XP. Pass.

The other option is to move what's already there. For that you can use Move Earth (PHB) to raise the seabed. It will still take a long time but it's faster than all the above options.
You can affect a 150ft x 150ft x 10ft area in 10 minutes, or a 750ft square 10ft deep per casting in 4h 10m.

Huh. That's not so bad. Depending on how deep the bay is you could be finished in a month or two and have a decent-sized island at the end of it. Cover the edges with Walls of Stone to prevent erosion and you should be good.

[felinoel]

San Fransisco Bay is roughly 3 meters deep so I can probably convince the DM to go with that.

That sounds like it would be expensive, paying for several move earth spells... maybe I should have an amulet of move earth crafted that works 1/day to make it cheaper, that would take some time but that does sound like the best route...

EDIT:
Making an amulet of Move Earth 1/day should be like 6.5k, I will go this route, thanks!

[Tarvus]

I know you said you had your answer, but this concept got me thinking. After all, its a discussion board not an answer board :smallwink:

So for completeness let me also offer some suggestions:


Suspension from Shinging South. Its only Sor/Wiz 4 day/lvl and with it you can move 1000lb/lvl at about 5mph. If you have a source for rock or dirt, this is a potentially cheaper method and means you can create a stronger, rock foundations rather than sand.

Fuse sand from Sandstorm is also 4th level, and does 2*10ft cube/lvl. Presumably the bottom of the bay would be sand, so this coupled with Move Earth provides a much more stable foundation. The spell also lists the stats of the resulting product. Instanteous.

Of course Rock to Mud (SRD SorWizDrd 5) allows you to pump and shape the foundation however you like before dispelling or countering the spell to turn it back into rock. Note that Mud to Rock itself is permanent not instantaneous, so this is more useful for moving/shaping existing rock. Perhaps for conglomerating the loose rock you moved with Suspension?

Deadly Lahar from C.Mage instantaneously produces a 60ft cone of lava. Fly or sail out there and cast it downwards and by my calculations you'll end up with a solidified cone with base diameter 80ft. Nice and quick, but its 8th level.

For whatever means you use, stone metamorphosis from Underdark can convert any stone into any other stone. So the sandstone you form from the silt layer can be turned into granite for hardness. Theres other more fun options listed in the book as well.

[Darrin]

I have no idea where Conquerer's Bay is found, but if it's in a swamplike area, raise hummock (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20030706a) might work. Otherwise I'd probably go with deadfall.

Maybe find a Deepstone Sentinel? They can create 10' tall pillars of stone at will. It's not clear to me if they can create a pillar on top of a pillar, but I don't see anything in the text that says they can't. Then again... I'm not sure you'd want an island that the Deepstone Sentinel could dismiss with a standard action.

[atemu1234]

Genesis, create your own little demiplane?

[Bronk]

You could crash a celestial object into the bay, or kill a giant rock monster there and use the body as the island...

[felinoel]

I know you said you had your answer, but this concept got me thinking. After all, its a discussion board not an answer board :smallwink:

So for completeness let me also offer some suggestions:


Suspension from Shinging South. Its only Sor/Wiz 4 day/lvl and with it you can move 1000lb/lvl at about 5mph. If you have a source for rock or dirt, this is a potentially cheaper method and means you can create a stronger, rock foundations rather than sand.

Fuse sand from Sandstorm is also 4th level, and does 2*10ft cube/lvl. Presumably the bottom of the bay would be sand, so this coupled with Move Earth provides a much more stable foundation. The spell also lists the stats of the resulting product. Instanteous.

Of course Rock to Mud (SRD SorWizDrd 5) allows you to pump and shape the foundation however you like before dispelling or countering the spell to turn it back into rock. Note that Mud to Rock itself is permanent not instantaneous, so this is more useful for moving/shaping existing rock. Perhaps for conglomerating the loose rock you moved with Suspension?

Deadly Lahar from C.Mage instantaneously produces a 60ft cone of lava. Fly or sail out there and cast it downwards and by my calculations you'll end up with a solidified cone with base diameter 80ft. Nice and quick, but its 8th level.

For whatever means you use, stone metamorphosis from Underdark can convert any stone into any other stone. So the sandstone you form from the silt layer can be turned into granite for hardness. Theres other more fun options listed in the book as well.

I am of course open to other suggestions.

All of those seem a little too expensive for my abilities, expensive compared to a Move Earth 1/day amulet that is.
I will be looking more into the Shinging South thing thought as that might not be too expensive comparatively.


I have no idea where Conquerer's Bay is found, but if it's in a swamplike area, raise hummock (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20030706a) might work. Otherwise I'd probably go with deadfall.

Maybe find a Deepstone Sentinel? They can create 10' tall pillars of stone at will. It's not clear to me if they can create a pillar on top of a pillar, but I don't see anything in the text that says they can't. Then again... I'm not sure you'd want an island that the Deepstone Sentinel could dismiss with a standard action.

It is right off of Nidal where my party member now owns a town in Karpad.

Dismissible islands seem iffy...


Genesis, create your own little demiplane?I want it to be in the same plane as the town Karpad.


You could crash a celestial object into the bay, or kill a giant rock monster there and use the body as the island...Or find a really, really giant turtle, but those do not seem able to be done too easily...

[Kraken]

You might opt for undermaster, from the Spell Compendium, if 9th level spells are a possibility. It grants you move earth as a spell like ability (and many other useful earth shaping spells) for its duration, but more importantly it reduces the casting time of move earth to a standard action. If you have some way of persisting it, then you could probably do what you want in a day.

[felinoel]

You might opt for undermaster, from the Spell Compendium, if 9th level spells are a possibility. It grants you move earth as a spell like ability (and many other useful earth shaping spells) for its duration, but more importantly it reduces the casting time of move earth to a standard action. If you have some way of persisting it, then you could probably do what you want in a day.I will look into that, but elsewhere someone recommended the lyre of building which is AWESOME!

I will look into undermaster because Lyre of Build to create the skeleton and Move Earth to move the Earth is my best bet so far!

[ghanjrho]

If you have enough time, use some fimbulwinter to create a glacier/iceberg, then expand upon it. Maybe research an ice to rock spell.

[Heliomance]

Frankly, raising land from the sea SHOULD be high level magic. It's quintessential archmage stuff. If I was making a spell to do it in one go, I'd put it at 9th level with a multi-hour casting time.

[Tiri]

There is an epic spell called Raise Island that can create a 200ft diameter circular island in ocean up to 999ft deep.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Frankly, raising land from the sea SHOULD be high level magic. It's quintessential archmage stuff. If I was making a spell to do it in one go, I'd put it at 9th level with a multi-hour casting time.

It really depends where and how big. If you want to raise an inhabitable piece of land in a bay you're not going to need that much elevation. That's easily doable with one or two Move Earth castings.
In felinoels example of 3 meters that could be done with a single casting if you're content with a 750ft square.

If you want to raise it in the deep sea with the ocean floor being a lot further down you're obviously going to need more power.

The epic Raise Island spell is still a joke. For the cost, casting time and additional spellcasters you get a pretty small piece of land that can be dispelled by the first spellcaster that doesn't like you. That's not something i'd pay a few hundred thousand GP for, especially since you could accomplish the same goal in less time with non-epic magic, in a non-dispellable fashion.

[felinoel]

If you have enough time, use some fimbulwinter to create a glacier/iceberg, then expand upon it. Maybe research an ice to rock spell.
That might work... but the Lyre of Building for the skeleton of the island coupled with the Move Earth spell repeatedly seems like the best route to take...


It really depends where and how big. If you want to raise an inhabitable piece of land in a bay you're not going to need that much elevation. That's easily doable with one or two Move Earth castings.
In felinoels example of 3 meters that could be done with a single casting if you're content with a 750ft square.

If you want to raise it in the deep sea with the ocean floor being a lot further down you're obviously going to need more power.

The epic Raise Island spell is still a joke. For the cost, casting time and additional spellcasters you get a pretty small piece of land that can be dispelled by the first spellcaster that doesn't like you. That's not something i'd pay a few hundred thousand GP for, especially since you could accomplish the same goal in less time with non-epic magic, in a non-dispellable fashion.Yeah I was looking at the spell and I would have to agree with you on that...




WAIT!
What about volcanoes?! Is there any way I could start a volcano to make the island?

[Hiro Quester]

You will need a bard friend to make the DC 18 Perform (string instruments) check to use it for more than an hour, but the Lyre of Building is indeed your best bet.

But that just supplies the labor. You will still need something to supply the materials for the island.

[Tarvus]

WAIT!
What about volcanoes?! Is there any way I could start a volcano to make the island?

Well yes, off the top of my head there is an epic magic seed and also this (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20031017a) but I think both are out of your price range. :smallfrown:

EDIT: In a similar theme is the previously mentioned Ring of Fire, but other interesting options are both from the notorious Serpent Kingdoms. Erupt is also 9th level but does give you a radius of 100 ft./level though nothing will grow on it for a year. Lava Splash is more hopeful though. "Only" Drd4/Clr5, and it creates a 40ft diameter cylinder, 20ft high. Few castings of that'd get you something to build on.
Both duration Instantaneous, though the other listed options are probably better and getting anything from SK approved by a DM is often hard.

[Necromancy]

Is this a pathfinder game?

[felinoel]

You will need a bard friend to make the DC 18 Perform (string instruments) check to use it for more than an hour, but the Lyre of Building is indeed your best bet.

But that just supplies the labor. You will still need something to supply the materials for the island.I can acquire the materials and can become a stringed instrument player and/or just use it for an hour once a day.


Well yes, off the top of my head there is an epic magic seed and also this (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20031017a) but I think both are out of your price range. :smallfrown:

EDIT: In a similar theme is the previously mentioned Ring of Fire, but other interesting options are both from the notorious Serpent Kingdoms. Erupt is also 9th level but does give you a radius of 100 ft./level though nothing will grow on it for a year. Lava Splash is more hopeful though. "Only" Drd4/Clr5, and it creates a 40ft diameter cylinder, 20ft high. Few castings of that'd get you something to build on.
Both duration Instantaneous, though the other listed options are probably better and getting anything from SK approved by a DM is often hard.Hmmm...
Raise Volcano
Conjuration (Creation) [Earth, Fire]
Level: Drd 9
Components: V, S, M, DF, XP
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect: One volcano (see text)
Duration: Concentration
Saving Throw: Reflex partial, see text
Spell Resistance: No

The potent raise volcano spell opens a fissure deep in the earth that leads down to an underlying pool of magma and causes it to explode upward, creating a relatively small (but still quite devastating) artificial volcano.

You select a point to be the center of the volcano you create. Immediately, the ground in a 10-foot radius around that point swells into a cone 10 feet high, with a small vent at the peak. Every creature in this area must make a Reflex save or fall to the base of the cone, taking 1d6 points of damage. Structures in the area take 8d6 points of damage.

One round after the vent appears, an 80-foot-radius area around the center of the spell's effect is struck with a terrific tremor that duplicates the effect of an earthquake spell. At the same time, gouts of lava and ash blast from the central cone. Any creature inside of the cone (falling or flying up) takes 20d6 fire damage each round they remain inside the cone with no saving throw. Creatures and objects directly above the cone's rim (to a height of 10 feet per caster level) and within 10 feet of the cone's rim also suffer this fire damage, but they can make Reflex saving throws each round they remain in the danger zone to take half damage.

Each round you concentrate, the radius of cone and the radius of the earthquake effect grows by 5 feet, and the top of cone rises 10 feet.

Starting on round 4, the earthquake zone is pelted with burning chunks of molten rock, and all creatures and objects in this area take 2d6 points of fire damage per round (with a successful Reflex save negating the damage).

Starting on round 8, the entire earthquake zone is blanketed in a thick cloud of ash and smoke to a height of 5 feet per caster level; all creatures in this area suffer as if caught within a wall of smoke spell.

The volcano ceases to grow once it reaches its maximum radius of 5 feet per caster level. The earthquake zone ceases to grow once it reaches its maximum radius of 80 feet per caster level. The volcano's growth also ends if the spell's magic is dispelled or you cease concentrating on the spell. Once the spell's duration ends, the volcano stops erupting, and the cone collapses into a pit as deep and wide as the cone. One round later the pit closes up; anything inside the pit when it closes is crushed. Those inside the pit take 20d6 points of damage and become entombed in the ground; if they cannot escape via magic or burrowing, they remain there until they suffocate, die of thirst or hunger, or are rescued by outside forces.

Material Component: A block of obsidian that has been magically shaped into a miniature volcano, the caldera of which must be filled with rubies totaling no less than 5,000 gp.

XP Cost: 5,000 XP.That sounds promising if I wanna go the volcano route...
Yes I do like the Lava Splash though but the Lyre of Building route gives me a useful tool for future endeavors...


Is this a pathfinder game?Yes, I changed the title.

[Necromancy]

Mythic rules permitted?

[felinoel]

Mythic rules permitted?

Sure.

Move Earth isn't even a PFS spell but I'm going to convince the DM to allow it anyways lol

[(Un)Inspired]

San Fransisco Bay is roughly 3 meters deep so I can probably convince the DM to go with that.

That sounds like it would be expensive, paying for several move earth spells... maybe I should have an amulet of move earth crafted that works 1/day to make it cheaper, that would take some time but that does sound like the best route...

EDIT:
Making an amulet of Move Earth 1/day should be like 6.5k, I will go this route, thanks!

The bay gets way deeper that 3 meters. I've fallen into it.

[felinoel]

The bay gets way deeper that 3 meters. I've fallen into it.I googled it, 2 meters at low tide and 4 at high tide.

[Necromancy]

If you can cast mythic levitate then you can make your own floating castle. Who needs land?

[(Un)Inspired]

I googled it, 2 meters at low tide and 4 at high tide.

It gets a hellova lot deeper than 4 meters. Google has mislead you.

[Tarvus]

There are bathymetric maps of SF bay. (http://sfbay.wr.usgs.gov/sediment/southsfbay/images/maps_depth_1983.jpg)
Much of it seems to be around the 3-5 meter mark, but there are much MUCH deeper sections in the middle and the average depth is closer to 5m because of that.

Hmm, I didn't know this was PF/3.P. Not my area of expertise but most things work out equivalent anyway.

Edit: Linked the wrong image - thats So. SFBay, but its representative enough of the area.

[Gurifu]

Polymorph Any Object doesn't have a size limit on the end result of the polymorph.

This is a potentially campaign-breaking application of a spell. Ask your DM if you can do this, and if you should need a special ritual, a deal with the local gods, etc, rather than just the default standard action. But RAW, Polymorph Any Object: pebble to mountain-sized boulder is valid and has a permanent duration.

[aspekt]

Adapt rules from Ars Magica 5e Transforming Mythic Europe .

[JohnDaBarr]

If there is something like a Flask of Never Ending Water then using the same route try to create a Bucket of Never Ending Dirt.... :smallbiggrin:

Still I think the Lyre of Building is your best bet.

[Tarvus]

If there is something like a Flask of Never Ending Water then using the same route try to create a Bucket of Never Ending Dirt.... :smallbiggrin:

Bottle of Endless Sand, Sandstorm 21600 gp.

[atemu1234]

Adapt rules from Ars Magica 5e Transforming Mythic Europe .

I wonder if anyone has already done that...

[felinoel]

You will need a bard friend to make the DC 18 Perform (string instruments) check to use it for more than an hour, but the Lyre of Building is indeed your best bet.

But that just supplies the labor. You will still need something to supply the materials for the island.I have a figment familiar with the fluidic familiar feat, so he can change his eidelon evolutions to give him a +8 in Perform (string instruments).

Also, Karpad is RIGHT next to the Mindspin Mountains, the south side of those mountains where nothing dangerous is, I will remove one of those mountains, turning the entire mountain into many of the below giant tricycles.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f130/felinoel/DnD/Untitled-1b_zpsydyul0cm.png
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f130/felinoel/DnD/Untitled-2b_zpshu6exhwp.png
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f130/felinoel/DnD/Untitled-3b_zpsb6ppprgu.png

THEN I will pay a couple of Karpad's lower class citizens (the fetchlings) 1sp/day (according to here (http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.archivesofnethys.com%2FEq uipmentMiscDisplay.aspx%3FItemName%3DHireling%2520 %2528untrained%2529&h=EAQFxcRms)) but I will see if making the fetchlings several stone homes of magnificence in exchange for most of the 1sp/day lol


There are bathymetric maps of SF bay. (http://sfbay.wr.usgs.gov/sediment/southsfbay/images/maps_depth_1983.jpg)
Much of it seems to be around the 3-5 meter mark, but there are much MUCH deeper sections in the middle and the average depth is closer to 5m because of that.

Hmm, I didn't know this was PF/3.P. Not my area of expertise but most things work out equivalent anyway.

Edit: Linked the wrong image - thats So. SFBay, but its representative enough of the area.lol I will use a 4 meter deep in high tide area.


Polymorph Any Object doesn't have a size limit on the end result of the polymorph.

This is a potentially campaign-breaking application of a spell. Ask your DM if you can do this, and if you should need a special ritual, a deal with the local gods, etc, rather than just the default standard action. But RAW, Polymorph Any Object: pebble to mountain-sized boulder is valid and has a permanent duration.I doubt the DM would ok this very much /:


Adapt rules from Ars Magica 5e Transforming Mythic Europe .The DM wouldn't allow this either.


If there is something like a Flask of Never Ending Water then using the same route try to create a Bucket of Never Ending Dirt.... :smallbiggrin:

Still I think the Lyre of Building is your best bet.lol he wouldn't allow this either, even with the endless sand variant that exists.

[DrMartin]

Use fabricate to craft the base of the bay into a fundation for you island. kind of like this (warning! terrible asci ahead)

.................................................. ......................................_________
~~~~~~~~~~~...............................~~~~~~~~ ~.-^'@@@@@
_______________.......---fabricate into--->............-^'@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@@@..................................___.-^'@@@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@@@......................................... ...@@@@@@@@@@@@

and then drop some wall of stones as retainer walls. maybe hire somebody with ranks in knowledge (architecture and engineer) to direct your effort :D

[aspekt]

I wonder if anyone has already done that...

You would think so.

And I'm sorry the DM wouldn't allow it especially since I figured they would be doing the adaptation if not overseeing your adaptation.

The other option of course is to research your own new spells, once again under the DM's direction.

[Maglubiyet]

What about Planar Binding some Earth elementals to build up the bottom. 4HD elementals have STR 21, max lifting capacity 460 lbs. at 5 feet per round.

[JohnDaBarr]

I don't know if someone suggested this but compared with other suggestions the most cheapest and simplest way to do this would be to hire couple of hundred (or even more) unskilled laborers and pay them to do the job one bucket load at a time. Ofc speeding the process via magic is great but why bother with the bulk of the job if the common may can do it for you.

Since you appear to be near a urban area that isn't really an issue and you can get a good portion of your money back selling to the laborers food and board on the spot.

Note: How much work can 1000 laborers do in 10 days anyway?

[felinoel]

Use fabricate to craft the base of the bay into a fundation for you island. kind of like this (warning! terrible asci ahead)

.................................................. ......................................_________
~~~~~~~~~~~...............................~~~~~~~~ ~.-^'@@@@@
_______________.......---fabricate into--->............-^'@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@@@..................................___.-^'@@@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@@@......................................... ...@@@@@@@@@@@@

and then drop some wall of stones as retainer walls. maybe hire somebody with ranks in knowledge (architecture and engineer) to direct your effort :DActually, it seems the Lyre of Building magic item I am planning on using is based on the Fabricate spell lol


What about Planar Binding some Earth elementals to build up the bottom. 4HD elementals have STR 21, max lifting capacity 460 lbs. at 5 feet per round.I dunno, that seems a little too complicated. What would they build up the bottom with?


I don't know if someone suggested this but compared with other suggestions the most cheapest and simplest way to do this would be to hire couple of hundred (or even more) unskilled laborers and pay them to do the job one bucket load at a time. Ofc speeding the process via magic is great but why bother with the bulk of the job if the common may can do it for you.

Since you appear to be near a urban area that isn't really an issue and you can get a good portion of your money back selling to the laborers food and board on the spot.

Note: How much work can 1000 laborers do in 10 days anyway?Not as much as the Lyre of Building which is costing me 6500 since a party member can craft the item for me.

With that in mind it seems I misread the Lyre of Building, it APPEARS that I don't need to be anywhere near either the source material or the thing being built. It does say it only does the work of 100 human workers of three days in every thirty minutes time and based on that I did the math and it would take 22 hours to move 50,000 pounds of materials from the mountains to the town 75(ish) miles away but hey at least that just means one would have to wait another week to build with the materials.

Right?

[Hiro Quester]

With that in mind it seems I misread the Lyre of Building, it APPEARS that I don't need to be anywhere near either the source material or the thing being built. It does say it only does the work of 100 human workers of three days in every thirty minutes time and based on that I did the math and it would take 22 hours to move 50,000 pounds of materials from the mountains to the town 75(ish) miles away but hey at least that just means one would have to wait another week to build with the materials.

Right?

It doesn't say anything about range, but it seems reasonable for your DM to rule that work could only be done by the lyre within the range of hearing from the player (60 feet radius is usual for a bardic music performance).

[Sith_Happens]

It doesn't say anything about range, but it seems reasonable for your DM to rule that work could only be done by the lyre within the range of hearing from the player (60 feet radius is usual for a bardic music performance).

Alternatively, the lyre is based on Fabricate which is close range.

[Demidos]

Why not cast concentric Wall of Stones, and then have the lyre/move earth fill in the rest from the seabed/baybed?

[felinoel]

It doesn't say anything about range, but it seems reasonable for your DM to rule that work could only be done by the lyre within the range of hearing from the player (60 feet radius is usual for a bardic music performance).The fact that it doesn't say anything about range is why I think no range is involved.

Though knowing this DM he VERY likely would have a TON of deaths if no one was there to supervise the construction...


Alternatively, the lyre is based on Fabricate which is close range.based on


Why not cast concentric Wall of Stones, and then have the lyre/move earth fill in the rest from the seabed/baybed?Too expensive since I would need to pay someone to cast wall of stones when I could create an underwater dungeon system and then put dirt on top of that.