Swordsage question

[DarthBlob]

I was looking over the ToB, and am loving the Swordsage.

What would you say the best discipline for a Swordsage is, though? I was thinking Diamond Mind, but I don't know anything. :smalltongue:

[Assassinfox]

They're all good. :smalltongue:

[Annarrkkii]

They are. That's the beauty of it. Choose a mix whichever ones fit your character idea best and go with it. Although, in general, Stone Dragon tends to be better for Warblades than for Swordsages.

[Assassinfox]

Although, in general, Stone Dragon tends to be better for Warblades than for Swordsages.

It does seem a bit too "brute forcey" for the graceful swordsage. :smallconfused:

[Bears With Lasers]

That and it's the weakest, because everyone gets access to it.

[Misplaced_Jedi]

Assasinfox is right on the money, they're all a lot of fun. If you're more on the roleplaying side, it's easier to figure out what your character would use, since the flavor of the maneuvers is in their effects rather than the school itself (since you can always adapt that part). Desert Wind is really impressive, visually, but limiting because it's only fire; Diamond Mind, well, is just awesome (my favorite, so others could probably critique it more realistically); Setting Sun is incredibly fun for manipulating the battlefield, especially with moves like Ballista Throw; Shadow Hand had some really interesting abilities with a ninja-esque twist (paralyzing, teleporting through shadows); Stone Dragon is just plain useful; and Tiger Claw can give you some of those crazy cinematic moments (Death from Above, Wolf Climbs the Mountain). Generally, I would suggest picking your favorite and sticking with it. Since it sounds like Diamond Mind (Time Stands Still is soooo cool) I'd also look at some Stone Dragon for DR and Setting Sun for counters.

[Misplaced_Jedi]

That and it's the weakest, because everyone gets access to it.

I don't think that makes it weak. Everyone gets it because it's effects are useful in a mechanical way rather than flavorful.

[DarthBlob]

Yeah, I know they're all good.

But, for an upcoming game, I was thinking of playing a Diamond Mind Swordsage, but I was wondering if there was one that was leaps and bounds ahead of all the others or not.

Also: What PRCs would mesh well with a Diamond Mind? I'm not really sure about the ending power level of this game.

[Assassinfox]

Yeah, I know they're all good.

But, for an upcoming game, I was thinking of playing a Diamond Mind Swordsage, but I was wondering if there was one that was leaps and bounds ahead of all the others or not.

Also: What PRCs would mesh well with a Diamond Mind? I'm not really sure about the ending power level of this game.

Personally, I think the Swordsage is good enough as it is, without any PrCs. Unlike bland flavorless classes like Fighter or Barbarian. :smalltongue:

[Bears With Lasers]

I don't think that makes it weak. Everyone gets it because it's effects are useful in a mechanical way rather than flavorful.

Everyone gets access to it, so they didn't make it one of the stronger ones.

Its effects are fairly ho-hum, except for the use of DR/hardness-ignoring maneuvers to make tunnels, and you can't use it at all unless you're standing on the ground (note how important flying is to the mid/late game).

[The_Snark]

Yeah, I know they're all good.

But, for an upcoming game, I was thinking of playing a Diamond Mind Swordsage, but I was wondering if there was one that was leaps and bounds ahead of all the others or not.

Also: What PRCs would mesh well with a Diamond Mind? I'm not really sure about the ending power level of this game.

Diamond Mind is solid on both offense and defense, what with the save-boosting counters and Concentration checks to deal damage.

One of the things I think the book did really well is the prestige classes. You don't need to get a prestige class to be good; a pure swordsage, warblade, or crusader will work just fine all the way til level 20. The classes in the book aren't something every character will want to go into; they fit specific characters, rather than being extensions of the base classes. Which is how prestige classes are supposed to be.

[DarthBlob]

I understand that, and I know ToB classes are good until 20.

But I was just wondering if there were any PrCs that meshed exceptionally well with Diamond Mind, if flavor wasn't a concern.

[Bears With Lasers]

Not particularily. Swordsage 20 is best, since you get Dual Boost and can combine Time Stands Still with, say, Raging Mongoose and Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip or Inferno Blade thrice a day.

[Yuki Akuma]

I've always likes the Master of Nine, although it forces you to spread your focus a little thin. I like the concept of a master of all nine forms more than a master of one or two, though.

It won't fit every character, though.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Since a Swordsage starts with 6 maneuvers it's impossible to only take 1 discipline.

I like to (apart from prerequisites) ignore discipilines and look at maneuvers on an individual basis to see which are cool. Death from Above is awesome and a lot of Iron Heart Maneuvers mesh well with Diamond mind ones. Split your focus between Diamond Mind and Iron Heart is the best way to have a decent Remember that as a Swordsage you can have 5 (all 6 if you take martial study three times to get the Prerequisites but it isn't worth it) available 9th level maneuvers and ready all of them.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Swordsage can't take Iron Heart, which is a shame, because eating spells with IHS is fun.

[Ikkitosen]

I'm with Yuki - Master of Nine is cool. Following in the footsteps of the founder of the college thing guy (the fluff details elude me).


For a swordsage I like shadow hand, setting sun and a bit of desert wind for mobility (added to shadow teleports, that is.)

[Annarrkkii]

Setting Sun meshes pretty well with Diamond Mind, and makes for an excellent countering build—as dangerous on defence as on offence—but Setting Sun lacks any particularly choice maneuvers at lvl 1—Counter Charge and Step of the Wind are the only ones I usually take from it there. On the flip side, Diamond Mind can instead mesh well with Stone Dragon. Stone Dragon lacks many worthwhile counters, reducing its defensive capability, but Diamond Mind fills that void nicely, making for a highly effective tank. Diamond Mind/Shadow Hand could also work very well, and has a great flavor. Grab a few Shadow Hand defensive stances, Shadow Jaunt, and a couple of ability-drainers (Bloodletting Strike), and you're going to be pretty nasty.

Diamond Mind meshes slightly less effectively with Tiger Claw or Desert Wind. Desert Wind, more than any other school, tends to lend itself to a less diverse character. Many people consider Desert Wind the weakest school. It isn't, of course, but it's easy to see where they get the idea—fire resistance negates most moves, AMFs negate most moves. On the flip side, though, those moves are more powerful than many others for their levels. The SU and fire damage are balance factors. A 4d6 fire damage counter as a touch attack? Desert Wind Dodge, Desert Flame, and Evasive Reflexes? Full attacks with extra fire damage and AC, just for moving around? Yes please! Tiger Claw is one of the better dipping schools, though it also can be a great staple for your character, and can provide little snippets of useful for you from all over. Blood in the Water is a solid stance for rapier or scimitar wielders, especially those with Keen weapons or effects, and Wolverine Stance is a good last resort against Improved Grabbers. And Death from Above and Swooping Dragon Strike, are, of course, nasty. The Fleshrip chain of maneuvers is excellent for a team player—reducing AC and the like, or adding rend damage—but these and some of the school's other best strikes are pretty TWF-oriented, whereas Diamond Minders tend to go for builds that rely less on Full Attacks and more on calculated THF strikes or surgical precision damage.

Consider a level or three of Rogue for the Sneak Attack damage. Especially if you dabble in Shadow Hand.

[Agatsuma]

Setting Sun is fun mostly for the throw moves ("I pick up the halfling and throw him 20 feet that way"), but I am a fan of Shadow Hand and Diamond Mind, with a few Desert Wind for those less stealthy times.

[I_Got_This_Name]

Discipline-wise, I think you could probably build a solid character with any combination of disciplines, so long as you met the prerequisites to keep getting your high-end maneuvers.

On individual maneuvers, there's no reason not to get Burning Blade. Most of the time, this will be a great boost to your damage whether your making multiple attacks or a single strike; +1d6 to your damage is always good at the low-end, and +IL is good at the higher end.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My favorite thing to do is build a better monk. Under 'Adaptation', you are able to replace light armor proficency to get monk unarmed attack damage. Considering this is in nearly every way benificial to you, since you're going to get wis bonus to AC without armor anyways, I love it. As a houseruled variant, I also trade in Discipline Focus to get monk Flurry and Ki Strike (magic and adamantine only).

Then I specialize in the four disciplines which have Unarmed as their favored weapon: Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw, and Stone Dragon, with maybe a few Diamond Mind abilities thrown in for good measure. Get the party caster to cast Greater Magic Weapon/Fang on your hands and you've got the bonuses you'd normally be loosing by getting unarmed attacks rather than a weapon, and your unarmed damage goes up to 2d10 (for a medium character) at level 20.

But that's just me.

I will say that Warblades are the ultimate tank, probably even more so than the Crusader, simply because he can at least choose which maneuvers and stances he has readied. Plus, Iron Heart plus Stone Dragon plus White Raven is teh win. Particularly if you get the Feat (not maneuver) Clarion Commander to make an intimidation check DC 20 (flat rate!) and hit the guy to make him flanked for the rest of combat (Rogues! Remove that man!). White Raven is just win for any battlefield control tank, Stone Dragon and Iron Heart gives you enough 'No' ability to survive nearly anything (Wall of Blades, in particular, is good when combining Power Attack with Shock Trooper to negate the penalty to AC).

[Dausuul]

Diamond Mind isn't really a discipline to specialize in IMO; not enough damage output. On the other hand, some of the defensive stuff is very useful, particularly the "Concentration check in place of saving throw" maneuvers. For a swordsage, Mind Over Body is a must, though you can probably do without Action Before Thought or Moment of Perfect Mind--your Reflex and Will saves should be quite high to begin with.

For the rest, it's really a question of the role you want to play.

Tiger Claw probably has the most potential for raw damage, though you have to be a dual wielder to get the most out of it.

Stone Dragon is good for substantial damage plus a touch of battlefield control. Sadly, most of its maneuvers have save DCs based off your Strength, which adds some MAD to the Wisdom/Dexterity-specialized swordsage.

Shadow Hand can do fairish damage as well, and it's got all kinds of ninja-stealth-assassination goodness. Plus its key attribute is Wisdom, which has excellent synergy for the swordsage. It's my personal favorite among the disciplines, mostly for the teleportation and walking up walls.

Setting Sun has less damage potential than most, but if you have someone else in your party to dish out the hurt, the battlefield control aspect makes up for it. Put your opponents wherever is most convenient for you. Preferably about ten feet past the edge of a cliff.

Desert Wind can do lots of damage, but it's all fire damage, so it's not a good one to invest too heavily in; however, the "Burning Blade" series of boosts are a great way to add that bit of extra kick, particularly if you dual wield. And Fire Riposte is just fun... you will find yourself deliberately moving through threatened areas just so you can provoke an AoO and fire off that retaliatory zorch.

[ImperiousLeader]

Diamond Mind isn't really a discipline to specialize in IMO; not enough damage output. On the other hand, some of the defensive stuff is very useful, particularly the "Concentration check in place of saving throw" maneuvers. For a swordsage, Mind Over Body is a must, though you can probably do without Action Before Thought or Moment of Perfect Mind--your Reflex and Will saves should be quite high to begin with.

It's worth it for Time Stands Still, though, it's an awesome 9th level maneuver, especially when you dual-boost with say, Burning Blade and Raging Mongoose. Still, Warblades tend to get more out of Diamond Mind than Swordsages. Avalanche of Blades + Combat Rhythm FTW.

[Marius]

I will say that Warblades are the ultimate tank, probably even more so than the Crusader, simply because he can at least choose which maneuvers and stances he has readied. Plus, Iron Heart plus Stone Dragon plus White Raven is teh win.

But Warblades don't get White Raven.

[Bears With Lasers]

Crusaders are much tankier than Warblades. Both get White Raven, it's the Swordsage who doesn't.

The Crusader can heal himself as he fights, protect his allies a bit, and doesn't waste actions refreshing. The randomness of the granted maneuvers isn't such a big deal.

[Closet_Skeleton]

But Warblades don't get White Raven.

Yes they do. Warblades don't get Shadowhand, Setting Sun or Desert Wind (the swordsage only disciplines) and devoted spirit (the crusader only uber school).

[Fax Celestis]

There are (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40991) a number (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40885) of disciplines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10707) made on this very forum. Perhaps they'd be worth looking into.

[Dausuul]

It's worth it for Time Stands Still, though, it's an awesome 9th level maneuver, especially when you dual-boost with say, Burning Blade and Raging Mongoose.

Sure, if you expect to make it to 17th level. Unless your character is already starting in the teens, or you have reason to believe your campaign is going to go on for a very very long time, making plans on the basis of "What's the 9th-level maneuver in this discipline?" is silly.

[ImperiousLeader]

How about Rapid Counter, which allows you to make a strike when you make an AoO? Bounding Assault, which has the bonuses of a Charge without the penalty? Heck, even Sapphire Nightmare Blade is good, because if you make the Concentration check, he's flatfooted against your strike. Hello, Sneak Attack. Diamond Mind is one of my favourite disciplines.

[henebry]

As far as Prestige Classes go, what do you folks think of the Bloodstorm Blade? Aside from the illustration (which one of my players just can't get enough of) it seems somewhat lame, since you lose all progression in your # martial maneuvers known/readied and stances known.

[Fax Celestis]

As far as Prestige Classes go, what do you folks think of the Bloodstorm Blade? Aside from the illustration (which one of my players just can't get enough of) it seems somewhat lame, since you lose all progression in your # martial maneuvers known/readied and stances known.

Bloodstorm Blades are pretty awesome, since they can Power Attack with returning thrown greatswords. Built correctly, a Warblade/Master Thrower/Bloodstorm Blade is a devastating opponent.

[Annarrkkii]

You only need 3 Diamond Mind moves to qualify for Time Stands Still, and almost every adept will have three by 17th level (X Nightmare Blade, X Razor, and generally one other, often Pearl of Black Doubt). Honestly, though, don't worry yourself about which 9th-level maneuvers you end up with. They all own, to one degree or another.

One of the best combinations for a Swordsage who wants to fill a traditional role as a mobile, light combatant is Desert Wind and Shadow Hand. Together, they provide the best maneuverability the Tome has to offer. At low levels, combine Desert Flame with Child of Shadow for a mobile death machine that's hard to pin down. For extra flavor, fight with a finessed shortsword and add in Burning Blade every few rounds to keep your foes on their toes. At higher levels, Assassin's Stance and Shadow Jaunt mean you can strike just about anywhere on the battlefield, and maneuvers like Hatchling's Flame and Holocaust Cloak help to neutralize situations in which you would otherwise be at a disadvantage with your single-foe Shadow Hand strikes. Bloodletting Strike is a monstrously awesome maneuver, that can quickly weaken foes, while Strength Draining Strike can keep an enemy weak.

[Drascin]

Yeah, pretty much every discipline is good. I'm right now starting the swordsage part of my druid/swordsage (yes, I know, horribly unoptimized, but I don't care. I gave up wild shape for aspect of nature, so you can see I don't worry much about power. Though my DM was kind enough to give me a permanently shilellaghed quarterstaff to go with the character concept of a quarterstaff-wielding druid/swordsage, and I still have the impressive druid spell list at my command, so I think I might get by :smallamused:) and let me tell you, choosing a maneuver progression is painful... because they all seem so cool, dammit! I was actually thinking of going dual-wielder (hey, shillelagh means I'm basically dual-wielding greatswords. That's cool as hell, however you look at it), and the combination of Desert Fire's mobility and boosts plus Tiger Claw's ferocious dual strikes is mouthwatering. But with my stratospherical concentration checks, maybe I should invest in some Diamond Mind maneuvers too. And of course, a bit of reflavored Shadow Hand never hurt anybody, and sneak attacks go well with dual-wielding. And... etcetera, ad infinitum.

See what I mean? Once you ToB, you can't stop! :smallwink:

But if you want to make a Diamon Mind-centric Swordsage, be sure to pay much attention to the ever-useful Insightful strikes and Gem Nightmare Blades, and one of my personal favorites, Pearl of Black Doubt. When you're mobbed it's just so sadistically fun to have all the enemies not only not hitting you, but actually decreasing their partners' chances of hitting :P.

[Fax Celestis]

Pearl of Black Doubt goes up exponentially in usefulness with a proper application of miss chance.

[Annarrkkii]

Child of Shadow, Ring of Blinking, Potion of Blur, and Pearl of Black Doubt...

Gods but I love ToB...

[Macrovore]

and you musn't forget Shadow Blade+burning blade+wolf fang strike. it makes TWFing worth it!!!

[Dausuul]

Child of Shadow, Ring of Blinking, Potion of Blur, and Pearl of Black Doubt...

Gods but I love ToB...

Child of Shadow and Pearl of Black Doubt are both stances. You can't use them simultaneously unless you've got one of those high-level "two stances at once" abilities. Also, miss chances do not generally stack, so the Ring of Blinking would supersede the potion and Child of Shadow.

[argentsaber]

personally, if you are interested in diamond mind for it's flavor.. i would combine it with shadowhand, and use iaijutsu master to make your katana finessable. an iaijutsu attack coupled with avalanche of blades will give anyone pause. very classic samurai sunday too.

[Zincorium]

personally, if you are interested in diamond mind for it's flavor.. i would combine it with shadowhand, and use iaijutsu master to make your katana finessable. an iaijutsu attack coupled with avalanche of blades will give anyone pause. very classic samurai sunday too.

Um, I really fail to see how Shadow Hand even enters into this, since it has nothing to do with katanas.