Hoard of the Dragon Queen

[j_spencer93]

Is anyone else finding this to hard for their parties? My players got killed by kobolds and their slings twice and almost got wiped out when trying to free the church.

[asorel]

During the first part of the campaign, the Bard got into death saves, but no one actually died. After they hit Level 2, they've been bulldozing through all of the encounters.

[Mandragola]

Is anyone else finding this to hard for their parties? My players got killed by kobolds and their slings twice and almost got wiped out when trying to free the church.

Yes. I'm a bit surprised they died to kobolds to be honest but there's a lot of really nasty stuff in the adventure - lots of which completely breaks the encounter sizes recommended in the DMG.

There are several fights that are all but impossible if you run them as written. Our party got a TPK when, at level 3, it got put against a CR5 and 3 CR2s at once. Later on there's a fight for 4 level 4 characters against 4 CR8 enemies - which is absolute nonsense.

As a GM my suggestion would be to use the DMG to check how reasonable the encounters actually are. If they are unreasonable, take stuff out.

When I ran it I added in some healing in chapter 1, because it's clearly required for the party to do the missions. I made the priest in the church have life domain and heal them up when they rescued him, and had a few potions available in the keep.

[j_spencer93]

Ya, my players are level 2 now. Literally got down to the last kobold around the church and the warlock with 1 hp left. Warlock managed to eldritch blast it to death. Paladin was unconscious on ground as was the cleric. Been having trouble keeping them alive at all in the first part, they seem to need a way to heal better but idk.
Just finding it strange that the random encounter of 6 kobolds eliminated the first party without them even getting to do anything (sorcerer, wizard, sorcerer). Second party that died was a warlock, sorcerer, barbarian outside the passage when reinforcements arrived again by kobold slings.

[j_spencer93]

Yes. I'm a bit surprised they died to kobolds to be honest but there's a lot of really nasty stuff in the adventure - lots of which completely breaks the encounter sizes recommended in the DMG.

There are several fights that are all but impossible if you run them as written. Our party got a TPK when, at level 3, it got put against a CR5 and 3 CR2s at once. Later on there's a fight for 4 level 4 characters against 4 CR8 enemies - which is absolute nonsense.

As a GM my suggestion would be to use the DMG to check how reasonable the encounters actually are. If they are unreasonable, take stuff out.

When I ran it I added in some healing in chapter 1, because it's clearly required for the party to do the missions. I made the priest in the church have life domain and heal them up when they rescued him, and had a few potions available in the keep.

This is the actual problem. The party says they need ways to heal and I actually agree, but then again I just can't believe how bad they seem to be doing. I literally had to start giving advice just to keep them alive. I even made the enemies a little dumber then normal...
The kobolds slings dealing 1d4+2 (when random encounter brought six of them) literally tore that first party apart. Only the dragonborn got off an attack. Thinking it was just a bad luck night but idk. Really thinking of adding a vendor and a cleric to that keep, should make it more reasonable.

[MustacheFart]

Yes. I'm a bit surprised they died to kobolds to be honest but there's a lot of really nasty stuff in the adventure - lots of which completely breaks the encounter sizes recommended in the DMG.

There are several fights that are all but impossible if you run them as written. Our party got a TPK when, at level 3, it got put against a CR5 and 3 CR2s at once. Later on there's a fight for 4 level 4 characters against 4 CR8 enemies - which is absolute nonsense.

As a GM my suggestion would be to use the DMG to check how reasonable the encounters actually are. If they are unreasonable, take stuff out.

When I ran it I added in some healing in chapter 1, because it's clearly required for the party to do the missions. I made the priest in the church have life domain and heal them up when they rescued him, and had a few potions available in the keep.


I'm pretty sure I know what CR5 fight you speak of but what fight are you referring to with the 4 CR8 enemies. We're nearing the end of the first book and I do not remember such a fight. Please if you could put it in spoiler tags that'd be awesome.

[calebrus]

Part of their problem is party size.
It's a tough module with a party of four or five.
With a party of only three, it's pretty much suicidal as written and you need to adjust the amount of healing provided and/or the number/type of mobs they face.
Don't follow the adventure exactly as written. Adjust it for the party.

[Gnomes2169]

I'm pretty sure I know what CR5 fight you speak of but what fight are you referring to with the 4 CR8 enemies. We're nearing the end of the first book and I do not remember such a fight. Please if you could put it in spoiler tags that'd be awesome.

The fight in question is a random encounter on the road to Waterdeep, in which the party stops in a tavern and finds three assassins in disguise. These assassins basically go out of their way to pick a fight with the party, and are absolutely lethal if they do so. When the path was made the assassins were only CR 5 critters and quite a lot weaker, but they were buffed and raised to CR 8. So the designers of the path suggested changing it to 3 scouts, while I changed it to 3 knights (wearing no more than leather armor) and one assassin. Both of these are much easier encounters.

[Inevitability]

Yes, it is hard. I had to change most fights in the low-level range. After that, things got better, but I still had to change battles now and then.

[Envyus]

The fight in question is a random encounter on the road to Waterdeep, in which the party stops in a tavern and finds three assassins in disguise. These assassins basically go out of their way to pick a fight with the party, and are absolutely lethal if they do so. When the path was made the assassins were only CR 5 critters and quite a lot weaker, but they were buffed and raised to CR 8. So the designers of the path suggested changing it to 3 scouts, while I changed it to 3 knights (wearing no more than leather armor) and one assassin. Both of these are much easier encounters.

To be exact the original encounter was with three young Green Slaadi who shape shifted and pretended to be human nobles and proceeded to be chaotic *******s as Slaadi do. However Young Green Slaadi were removed from the game and they were not able to use them. Then story you told happened.

However it was stated by Steve that they should have just cut the encounter entirely as losing the Slaadi removed was what weird and interesting about the encounter.

[Mandragola]

Hmm I'm sure our GM said there were meant to be four.

Our party is actually playing through at higher level because we did the starter set first, so the GM is having to level up NPCs and change the monsters for our higher-level characters. So this actually ended up being a fight with a level 6 sorcerer, bard and warlock (yay charisma!) against two proper grown-up green Slaadi.

The characters survived, barely, but the inn did not. My sorcerer counterspelled one fireball but the other went off. Fun fight though.

[DanyBallon]

We just completed the raid night in Greenest. We are a party on 6 and during our first fight, in the inn, our sorcerer went down from a well thrown rock to the head (crit), my bard spent both it's first level spell to kill the acolyte and curing the sorcerer. Afterward, we were attacked just outside the inn, my bard went down from a lance (crit again) so our cleric spent one of his spell to cure me. An other fight before the fort used an other cure spell from the cleric. Got to rest a bit at the fort then went for the windmill, fell miserably into the trap and my bard hit the ground once again, our monk too. We barely survived the temple extraction and got back to the fort for some rest and healing. The challenge with the boss got the best of our fighter before he even got the chance to attack (crit with both attack for an impressive 20+ damage), monk got to hit and then run around until boss fried him with a lightning. So after the raiding party left, we all tend to our wounds and finaly leveled up to level 2 :smallbiggrin:

So if all the fights in HotDQ are like this, we'll have to be more effective in combat or find a way to replace the DM's dices.

P.S. DM has some killer dices and usualy roll a crit every 2-3 rolls and if not rolls above 15 most of the time, even our fighter which has 18 AC gets hit almost as often as our squishy sorcerer...

[MadBear]

We're on the second book, and our party has breezed through the encounters so far. Then again, our group fights fairly smart, and we avoid conflicts that we don't think we can take. I kinda thought that was the point of some of those encounters though. Having every encounter be a fair fight for the PC's doesn't always make sense, and there should be some circumstances that require the PC's to flee/avoid if their smart.

[j_spencer93]

We're on the second book, and our party has breezed through the encounters so far. Then again, our group fights fairly smart, and we avoid conflicts that we don't think we can take. I kinda thought that was the point of some of those encounters though. Having every encounter be a fair fight for the PC's doesn't always make sense, and there should be some circumstances that require the PC's to flee/avoid if their smart.

Well my player's don't play to bad i guess. In all honesty their "smart" thinking usually makes 0 sense in the game. I noticed a lot of place that I could have done a lot better then them but I have more experience in RPGs and strategies then them. I agree that I do not think 100% of these encounters are meant to be handled.
Anyways its also nice to know that others have had a little bit of trouble. Some of ours comes from bad rolls and simply thinking we need more PCs in this encounter. Maybe give them a character I control but thinking that might not be fair actually, to many places where I would have the upper hand unless I simply followed all of their plans of action. If that was the case though...then another PC might not matter.

[Mandragola]

If you're running the adventure for 3 PCs instead of 4 you could reduce the number of monsters in the fights.

There is also a question of balance in the group. I'm not shocked that the party of arcane casters died so easily.

[MustacheFart]

It gets better. The first chapter is known as the meat grinder.

You can beat it with little difficulty but you have to be smart. Fight all kabolds with ranged only and keep them spread out. If they clump up you die.

Also an easy way to beat the first chapter is to not be good. You don't have to be. Rather than save the mill, burn it down with all of the cultists inside.

I'd love to play thru HOTDQ again with a "lesser of two evils party".

[Sabeta]

And here I thought my DM was being cruel. We just fought some necromancer in a graveyard and the Bard got one-shot by a fireball (Monk survives with 2 hp) and the poor hard ends up bleeding out.

[The J Pizzel]

I ran the first three episodes with 6 veteran players. It was friggin tough and they loved it....once they got themselves in the right frame of mind. Little things I/we did differently:

They saved the temple almost right off the bat because they figured there'd be healing potions inside. I wanted to reward this thinking, but didn't want to give them too much. So I had the little temple person (Falconmoon, I think) give them 4 Weak Potion of Healings, which did 1d4+1 HP instead of the normal 2d4+2. This helped the rest of Episode 1 big time.

The party was getting extremely tired of fighting Kobolds and cultists, so at the Mill I included some different mobs. One of the cultists had a Cockatrice (group loved it) and one summoned a Smoke Mephit (from the smoke of the burning hay piles) that helped a lot cause I cut back on the number of other peeps. The group loved this fight and still talk about it.

Episode 2 was an absolute blast and will go down as some of our best groups gaming sessions. I fleshed out the camp by adding a mercenaries group called the Warblades and a Lycan merc group called the Nightreapers. The in-game time spend in the camp was one night, the out of character time spent was 3 sessions (3-4 hour sessions). After the last session, my group went to our facebook group page all exclaiming that it was most of their best times playing.

Episode 3 was a fantastic, short, dynamic and exciting dungeon crawl. I made the cave complex very active. When they rested for an hour, things happened. The kobold traps were fun and dangerous. The kobold themselves were fun and dangerous. There was an audible cheer from the group when Langderosa went down. Two players in the group decided that a Roper can't be left alive and they had to actually fight it. The wild sorcerer randomly summoned a f**king Unicorn (LEGENDARY!!!) and the CG and TG character, after some fantastic role-playing, convinced the Uni to help them.

From here I turned over the DMing to another player cause I don't have time to run it anymore. All in all, it not a horribly written module, but it is frapping hard and takes a lot of DM modifying, players making start decisions, and good ole fashioned luck to make it through unscathed, especially Ep. 1.

[BRC]

HotDQ is very much NOT a "Wander until you find some dudes, then fight them" type of campaign. It contains very few isolated Encounters, with a lot more focus on characters (and enemies) occupying a space. How the encounters play out depends a lot on how the players approach these situations. Trying to go kick-in-the-door is often a bad idea, especially at lower levels. The Cultists rarely spend their time waiting around in level-appropriate groups in isolated rooms.

[Vogonjeltz]

Is anyone else finding this to hard for their parties? My players got killed by kobolds and their slings twice and almost got wiped out when trying to free the church.


Well my player's don't play to bad i guess. In all honesty their "smart" thinking usually makes 0 sense in the game. I noticed a lot of place that I could have done a lot better then them but I have more experience in RPGs and strategies then them. I agree that I do not think 100% of these encounters are meant to be handled.
Anyways its also nice to know that others have had a little bit of trouble. Some of ours comes from bad rolls and simply thinking we need more PCs in this encounter. Maybe give them a character I control but thinking that might not be fair actually, to many places where I would have the upper hand unless I simply followed all of their plans of action. If that was the case though...then another PC might not matter.

What is the party make-up? I could see problems if the group is lopsided.

[TheOOB]

The first thing your players need to learn in HotDQ is to avoid encounters when possible. There are very few mandatory encounters, and most of those are fairly easy.

[j_spencer93]

they want to restart it now with more time focused on creating characters. So they decided to play all tree huggers. A druid, a ranger, and a barbarian. We haven't started yet but the barbarian is the typical stupid muscle brute. Ranger and Druid will be developed as we play.
Thinking this is going to be another TPK soon honestly but i have a little hope

[MadBear]

The first thing your players need to learn in HotDQ is to avoid encounters when possible. There are very few mandatory encounters, and most of those are fairly easy.

very much this. I can't tell you how many times our characters looked at a situation and went: "nope, not charging into that combat, because that'd be a terrible and stupid idea". Then again our characters are pretty pragmatic.

[The J Pizzel]

very much this. I can't tell you how many times our characters looked at a situation and went: "nope, not charging into that combat, because that'd be a terrible and stupid idea". Then again our characters are pretty pragmatic.

My players did charge in to combat...once. They learned real quick.

[TheOOB]

My players did charge in to combat...once. They learned real quick.

The second chapter should really teach them. It's possible(and easy) to complete the entire chapter with no combat, and HIGHLY advisable.

[Madfellow]

they want to restart it now with more time focused on creating characters. So they decided to play all tree huggers. A druid, a ranger, and a barbarian. We haven't started yet but the barbarian is the typical stupid muscle brute. Ranger and Druid will be developed as we play.
Thinking this is going to be another TPK soon honestly but i have a little hope

Actually, the barbarian and the druid are top tier in terms of survivability, and the ranger has great damage output. I think they stand a decent chance.

[MustacheFart]

they want to restart it now with more time focused on creating characters. So they decided to play all tree huggers. A druid, a ranger, and a barbarian. We haven't started yet but the barbarian is the typical stupid muscle brute. Ranger and Druid will be developed as we play.
Thinking this is going to be another TPK soon honestly but i have a little hope

A barbarian isn't necessarily a tree-hugger. Though I am sorry about the fact he's playing it as a stereotypical stupid muscle brute. Be sure to punish him for that. I suggest a random encounter with a troop of educated barbarians.

[EvanescentHero]

A barbarian isn't necessarily a tree-hugger. Though I am sorry about the fact he's playing it as a stereotypical stupid muscle brute. Be sure to punish him for that. I suggest a random encounter with a troop of educated barbarians.

Or just let your players play the characters they want. Just a thought.

[8wGremlin]

The kobolds slings dealing 1d4+2 (when random encounter brought six of them) literally tore that first party apart. Only the dragonborn got off an attack. Thinking it was just a bad luck night but idk. Really thinking of adding a vendor and a cleric to that keep, should make it more reasonable.

so I have some questions:
the 6 Kobold Slings doing 1d4+2 what was their attack bonus?
What was the AC of the party?
What was the HP of the party?
Did you roll very well for the attacks?
Did the kobold focus their fire, or did the attacks get spread out?

[Jacob.Tyr]

Having someone with good survivability is incredibly important. Fighting smart is incredibly important. And knowing when to give up in Chapter one is fricking important! They don't have to do all the missions, and probably shouldn't try. My players didn't have any healing, and eventually had to give up on defending the town after rescuing the people trapped in the temple, and just holed up and rode out the rest of the attack.

I've also been using the average damage rules, so NPC damage is flat instead of swingy. It makes things faster, and means a lucky crit doesn't drop a player. The 4 assassins did nearly wreck my players, but smart application of spells and usage of positioning prevented flanking/sneak attack and kept the fight from ever being a 4v4.

Several chapters are very continuous combat, without much respite. It is very high-pressure and intense, which I think is one of the strongest points of it. At the same time, though, it really punishes mistakes and bad luck.

[MustacheFart]

Or just let your players play the characters they want. Just a thought.

Or learn to take an obvious joke. Just a thought.

[Safety Sword]

I DM two groups (one with veteran D&D players and one with new players with no RPG experience) and I found it enormously helpful to role play the assumed starting point for HotDQ. Getting to Greenest was the lead in that the characters needed.

In fact, the characters were level 2 when we entered the first chapter events. This made it challenging but survivable.

All in all the module is fine from there (if a little tough in spots) and it's only the cherished Level 1 randomness that can screw even good players.

The first set of adventure paths are too difficult for Level 1 in my opinion.

[j_spencer93]

so I have some questions:
the 6 Kobold Slings doing 1d4+2 what was their attack bonus?
What was the AC of the party?
What was the HP of the party?
Did you roll very well for the attacks?
Did the kobold focus their fire, or did the attacks get spread out?

The first time, they were all sorcerers and a wizard. Idr off the top of my head theirs ACs but pretty sure it wasn't higher then 14. Kobolds have an attack bonus of +2 i think, just woke up and not fully awake. The first attack struck one for full damage killing the player (well dropping him to 0). Then one missed, second struck for 4 damage, literally knocking another to 1. The dragonborn got his breath attack to kill one. Kobolds focused on his dropping him with an hail of bullets. The last sorcerer was dropped with a crit. It was pretty bad, but that one I think was mainly bad rolls and using 0 utility spells. They picked blasting only.

[j_spencer93]

I have told them with 3 players only it is going to be harder. Then do not want the mission changed except for someone selling healing items. They have asked for that.
As for barbarian, when the player first used one he was doing good. Until he decided to stand back, still in range of slings, and got the living crap shot out of him. I do not know why he just stood there, knocking one out as it got close to the warlock. Maybe he was trying to be a defender???

[MustacheFart]

I have told them with 3 players only it is going to be harder. Then do not want the mission changed except for someone selling healing items. They have asked for that.
As for barbarian, when the player first used one he was doing good. Until he decided to stand back, still in range of slings, and got the living crap shot out of him. I do not know why he just stood there, knocking one out as it got close to the warlock. Maybe he was trying to be a defender???

Yeah it sounds like they made some bad choices. Not only do you need to skip the battles you can't win but you also really need to be stealthy. That is assuming you have a DM who allows this. You're the new people in town you should be able to get the jump on the kabolds. They're squishy but you need to hit first and not let them pile up.

Nothing against all caster parties but it is kind of refreshing to hear them having trouble. I guess the mundane do serve a purpose at least to a certain level. Personally if I knew other people were playing the same class I would pick something entirely different.

[j_spencer93]

They all picked their classes not knowing what they others would be lol someone that is how it ended up.
As for sneaking, one character entered town and screamed at the top of his lungs using a spell to enhance it (some cantrip idk). Seriously...i was just staring at him wondering what the hell he was doing. He claimed they should all focus on him now.
Ya...an entire army and a giant dragon, even if that did work, why the hell would you want it too?

Casters are strong, i don't think spells got nerfed really, some seem stronger. I like the casting a lot better as do my players, the melee don't seem left out as much. Defiantly need some new utility spells as well as elemental spells. Only real place it is lacking...oh ya and necromancy needs some spells.

Really my only complaint is coming from 3.5 that 5.0 has very very little options. Even comparing it to 3.5 player's handbook it seems to have less options.

Back on track now. This new party I think will do better. The druid is focused on utility. Ranger on long range support. Barbarian on crushing people's skulls with his maul. Seems decent. Notice the lack of healing though, smh.

[MustacheFart]

They all picked their classes not knowing what they others would be lol someone that is how it ended up.
As for sneaking, one character entered town and screamed at the top of his lungs using a spell to enhance it (some cantrip idk). Seriously...i was just staring at him wondering what the hell he was doing. He claimed they should all focus on him now.
Ya...an entire army and a giant dragon, even if that did work, why the hell would you want it too?

I'm assuming he used the spell thaumaturgy and was maybe trying to create a diversion. In any case it was a VERY bad decision given the circumstances. Are you sure this is the adventure for them? While nothing is super complex it will punish stupid actions.

[j_spencer93]

Maybe not actually. They "think" they are smart but none of them think of the situation + their abilities. Instead then only think of one or the other.
Good example of this was the warlock. He had arms of hadar and moved into range of 1 target and used it. I, trying to show him some more utility, rewinded it and had him move into the center of the crowd then used it. it struck all the targets killing them, he even managed to not get hit with the disadvantage. why use a 10ft radius move to only strike 1 target, smh.
The player who used the barbarian is dumb. He thinks he is really intelligent (he is my brother lol) but he uses moves that make 0 sense. Example, they are at the portcully or whatever thing in the keep. The foes run in and he uses thunderwave, hitting them all and both allies. He killed all but 2.

[MustacheFart]

Well it really comes down to whether everyone (including you ) is having fun. If so, I'd say continue as you have been. If not then I'd consider changing up the adventure or introducing an npc to guide them. Introduce the character very softly and let them decide if they want him to tag along.

I'd recommend a cleric if you do so. He's there to give direction and fire off the occasional heal.

[j_spencer93]

I have thought about that but trying to avoid it. Think they are use to all of the 3.5 options and races. The less choices are really messing with them

[EvanescentHero]

Or learn to take an obvious joke. Just a thought.

Every time a barbarian comes up you harp on "stereotypical" ones and complain about them, so I have no way of knowing what's a joke to you.

[MustacheFart]

Every time a barbarian comes up you harp on "stereotypical" ones and complain about them, so I have no way of knowing what's a joke to you.

Fair point.

Though I assumed it was pretty obvious on the grounds that most believe in the freedom to play a character how you want and would be against punishing a player just for how they choose to play their character (within reason). I thought that was obvious. I responded to your post in kind with a similar tone.

My disdain for the stereotypical barbarian was the reason I made that wise crack and will continue to do so in the future.

That said I would not actually punish a player for playing their barbarian dumb. I would however react accordingly when they make dumb choices in game because they're playing dumb. I'd do that for any character, regardless of class, making a dumb decision.

[j_spencer93]

I have nothing against the dumb barbarian. I have had to stop and say no to him miraculously coming up with something some damn genius that it is out of character. Like suddenly knowing how a spell works more then our wizard. I literally couldn't let that slide. Metagame knowledge is metagame, not bull**** you character can know whenever it suits you lol

[MustacheFart]

I have nothing against the dumb barbarian. I have had to stop and say no to him miraculously coming up with something some damn genius that it is out of character. Like suddenly knowing how a spell works more then our wizard. I literally couldn't let that slide. Metagame knowledge is metagame, not bull**** you character can know whenever it suits you lol

Be careful you're not "punishing" him or not letting him play the character how he wants! 😜

*The above was in jest for those not capable of seeing it*

[j_spencer93]

Seriously though. There are other times his character has done less breaking rules but still makes no damn sense kind of things i have had to say no about.
Like immediately knowing the area he has never been to before, knowing about a brand new creature not even present in that world about, knowing what a ninja/samurai/blah blah was although he was a freaking barbarian who was never even near kara-tur. Knowing what a balor was (because according to him demons/gods/spells are common knowledge).
All at first level. No checks. Nothing. Supposedly knowledge anyone should know.
Getting off subject and starting to rant about 3.5 also so...
IS that all of the advice for this module?

[MustacheFart]

Getting off subject and starting to rant about 3.5 also so...
IS that all of the advice for this module?

My other advice would be to feel free to fudge it a bit. Maybe this time instead of the town purely relying on the party they have their own militia combatting the cult. The party can help but it's not all on them. Then you can scale the fights back a bit if needed.

[j_spencer93]

I thought about the militia thing. It might make it interesting too. Like if they find some and save them they become NPCs until they get them back to the keep. Would add another side quest thing for them to do.

[Vogonjeltz]

The first time, they were all sorcerers and a wizard. Idr off the top of my head theirs ACs but pretty sure it wasn't higher then 14.

They need to have at least one character with durability: A Fighter or Barbarian is preferred.

Taking only classes with the worst AC and HP in the game is just begging for a TPK.

[j_spencer93]

They need to have at least one character with durability: A Fighter or Barbarian is preferred.

Taking only classes with the worst AC and HP in the game is just begging for a TPK.

Well now we have a Goliath barbarian with an AC of 14, low AC kinda bothers me. Ranger character is looking good. The Druid will do fine.

[Safety Sword]

Well now we have a Goliath barbarian with an AC of 14, low AC kinda bothers me. Ranger character is looking good. The Druid will do fine.

Low AC and effectively double his hit point total, should be fine.

[j_spencer93]

Low AC and effectively double his hit point total, should be fine.

Ok i will tell him then. He is using a maul with a strength mod of 3.

[j_spencer93]

In the future I want more player options.

[Safety Sword]

Ok i will tell him then. He is using a maul with a strength mod of 3.

Just make sure that your players know what all of their abilities do! It's easy to write "Rage" in your features list and not actually realise what that does when you say "I get angry and charge in". As a DM teaching 5E to new players I have found it useful at times to "remind" characters that they can do certain things that may help them out of a jam. When you do this always couch it as a set of options so that you're not deciding for the player.

In my opinion you're still better off to wait until Level 2 to begin the adventure. Make it VERY obvious when the characters are over-matched (because they clearly are in the first chapter at the end).

The only problems I have had is when the stealthy party members tried to pull off a rescue of the hostages outside of the keep and were detected. Violating the honor duel and subsequently getting smashed to pieces by a big angry half-dragon. And that was my experienced 6 PC group. I must have said "Are you sure?" about 20 times during that disaster ;)

[j_spencer93]

Well...ok thanks for that advise lol. That doesn't sound like a fight i want them running into without being forewarned slightly