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Easy_Lee
2015-04-12, 08:54 PM
The Whirling Shillelagh

The point of this build is to make a Single-Attribute-Dependent (SAD) ranger who is still capable of excelling at a role. The chosen role is a character whose combat function is to do two things: kill pesky hordes of weak mobs, such as summoned creatures, and hold opponents in place. Those are really the only two things this build excels at, but it's pretty damn good at them, while also having all of the other benefits associated with being a melee ranger.

Before I start, a little bit about the ranger and why I felt it important to create a SAD variant:

The ranger, like a monk or blade-pact warlock, has two different attributes it depends on. In the ranger's case, those attributes are dexterity and wisdom, much like a monk. Unlike a monk or warlock, though, the ranger's class features leave one wanting.

A monk's class features work together very well, producing a character who's fast, hard to kill, good at locking targets down, and excels against targets who attack with save-or-suck effects. A blade-pact warlock has to work very hard to make the blade better than eldritch blast, but has a wide variety of spells and invocations to choose from. Further, he gets roughly full-casting progression. Warlocks can be built to suit a particular style.

The ranger's features are a weird mix of exploration, offensive, and defensive features that don't really seem to work together. The class peaks early for damage but gains no additional features that actually increase its damage as it levels, except arguably from the archetype, until the extremely weak capstone. Further, the druid spells the ranger may select are not as useful as those gained by a warlock. It's difficult to build a cohesive ranger that actually feels right.

For all of the above reasons, I feel that rangers need a healthy selection of feats in order to truly shine. In order to facilitate this, being SAD or close to it is necessary for the sake of optimization.


For all of the above reasons, I came up with a way to be SAD on a ranger while also filling a role cohesively. This build will work well in a balanced party, and will want party members to cover the arcane casting, skills, and single-target damage, the three major areas where this character will be lacking. Here's the build.

Race:
Variant human is mandatory for the feat, as you'll otherwise have to wait until 12 to be effective at what this build should do. The only alternative would be convincing your DM to allow a wood elf variant which trades some of its features for some druid cantrips and a spell in the same way as high elves do for wizards.

Stats:
The following statistics are possible using the standard array proposed in the PHB. If rolling or using point buy, you should be able to do even better than this.
16 Wisdom, 14 Dexterity, 14 Constitution, 12 Strength, 10 Charisma, 8 Intellect

I bolded wisdom and dexterity because wisdom is our main stat and dexterity must be 14 or higher for the sake of AC and decent dexterity saves.

Skills:
You want insight, medicine, perception, and survival for sure. Via natural explorer, you'll double your proficiency bonus to all four of these skills when in one of your favored terrains. That means you'll crap on even the rogues and bards trying to step to your wisdom skills, because they won't have your wisdom score. When not in one of your favored terrains and needing a high skill roll, try to fake it via the plant growth spell, which can effectively turn any terrain with plants into a forest-like area.

Armor and Weapon:
Wear half plate, use a shield, and wield a club or quarterstaff (one-handed) so that you can cast Shillelagh on it.

Feats:
1 – Magic Initiate: Shillelagh, Thorn Whip, Entangle
4 – War Caster
8 – Mobile
12 – ASI (WIS+2)
16 – ASI (WIS+2)
19 – Your choice (sentinel would be useful for extra reactions)

Note: Notice I did not include polearm mastery, in spite of the dueling and bonus action trick. The reason for this is that, between casting shillelagh, grasping vine, ensnaring strike, hunter's mark, and so on, you'll have plenty of uses for your bonus action already and won't need the bonus attack. Also, some DM's don't like it, so that's a thing.

Archetype / Chosen Features:

For favored terrain, choose forest and grassland among those selected. You'll be spending a lot of time among plants, and your DM may allow certain benefits from natural explorer.
Choose the dueling fighting style. We'll be swinging our 1d8 Shillelagh, which counts as a one-handed weapon for the purpose of the dueling style.
See if your DM lets you use Natural Explorer and Land's Stride together to ignore difficult terrain created by your own spells (try to get this for your party as well via natural explorer - the RAW says you only get this benefit when traveling for more than an hour, but it could be argued). These features need to be at least somewhat useful, after all.
Choose the Hunter Archetype. Take Horde Breaker at 3, Multiattack Defense at 7, Whirlwind at 11, Stand Against the Tide at 15


Some Suggested Spells:
Bonus action: Ensnaring Strike, Hunter’s Mark, Grasping Vine, ask your DM for a melee version of Lightning Arrow since this will be useful against more difficult hordes
No Concentration: Freedom of Movement, Plant Growth, Longstrider
Normal: Conjure Barrage, Tree Stride, Silence

Playstyle:
Keep shillelagh up at all times. Keep a ten-sided die turned to the current remaining duration (lasts ten rounds) and recast it as a bonus when it starts to drop.

Use your immobilizing and plant-based spells to keep your foes from moving. Concentrate on a target or group of targets to hold them in place. Use spike growth to create a hazardous terrain for enemies to move through. Combine both with plant growth, which can even be cast on your own conjured plants with DM permission to funnel your foes into tight groups. Cast spike growth into the funnel to really cause some problems, and ask your DM for permission to ignore your own hazardous terrain via Land's Stride.

Once we hit level 11, things get fun. Whirlwind attack allows you to strike all foes within 5' of yourself, using a separate attack roll for each. You can move during this whirlwind attack for a few reasons:

PHB 194: "If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack."
PHB 190: "If you take an action that includes more than one weapon attack, you can break up your movement even further by moving between those attacks."

Due to the above, you can absolutely move during whirlwind attack as per RAW. The only question is whether or not this extends its effective range, which is something to clear with your DM. My thoughts: since you can make an attack roll against creatures with 5' of you, since the ability does not specify that they have to be within 5' of you when you use the action, since you can move during it as per above, and since volley has a larger area and longer range (which is imbalanced and unfair), movement during whirlwind attack should be allowed.

Use tree stride when you get it to allow you to pop in and out of trees during a whirlwind attack, hitting everything that's near a tree and popping back in to move on to the next tree. This should work for all of the above reasons.

Since we took the mobile feat, not only is our ranger moving faster, he also doesn't provoke an opportunity attack from anyone while using whirlwind attack. Making an attack roll against a foe prevents that foe from getting an opportunity attack against you that turn, even if you miss. Add concentration-less longstrider and jump, if desired, to further extend range and make it more difficult to stop you.

Use conjure barrage, freedom of movement, and silence as needed. These are just really useful spells to have, and silence is your best defense against casters. Use grasping vine to pull foes away from your allies and into the middle of difficult terrain created by concentration-less plant growth. Use hunter's mark for better single-target DPR, though you won't be competing with rogues, fighters, paladins, or barbarians in this department at later levels (you'll do fine for the first ten).

Other Ranger Perks:
Try to come up with reasons to track people down, since rangers are quite good at tracking. You'll have to roleplay and be creative to make it work, but many of a ranger's features are quite good for this. One thing of note: hunter's mark can help you track an enemy, and they won't necessarily know that it's on them. You can also use this to help you find friendly allies.

Final Notes:
I've included a lot of areas which depend on roleplaying and DM interpretation / fiat. This is unfortunate, but a necessary limitation of a ranger build since many of its spells and features are vague or weak. For example: under plant growth, what does "normal plants" actually mean? If it meant non-magical plants, it should have said so like the Land's Stride ranger feature. And why does land's stride not work on one's own conjured plants, anyway? But I digress. I think that this build, with a friendly DM, will do just fine and be very useful to the party, particularly in campaigns with lots of enemy hordes and outdoor areas.

Naanomi
2015-04-12, 09:22 PM
A ranger with Magic Initiate with Shillelagh and the new Magic Stone cantrip in our new Adventure League is looking promising

asorel
2015-04-12, 09:23 PM
I like it. I'm almost regretting convincing the new member of our group to play the Ranger, as I'd like to try out some of these concepts. He'll probably be going for some variant of the mounted Beastmaster concept, however, which would be interesting to see in play.

numerek
2015-04-17, 08:38 PM
you could do nature cleric, save you feat and you get heavy armor proficiency and some spells. whirling around in full plate would be cool and helps with the sad thing less need for dexterity.

Of course, you could also do the more obvious one level of druid, it would mainly be for the spell preferences.

coredump
2015-04-18, 10:44 AM
Keep shillelagh up at all times. Keep a ten-sided die turned to the current remaining duration (lasts ten rounds) and recast it as a bonus when it starts to drop. This doesn't really work since most of the time you are not in 'combat mode' and thus not tracking time by rounds. Thus there is really no way to tell when to turn the die.
I think a simpler idea is to talk to you DM and explain what you want to do, and agree to just roll a D10 whenever combat occurs to determine how many rounds are left on the current use.
1) You can, of course, recast it before combat if you suspect combat will occur soon.
2) As DM, I would likely require a roll to make sure you remembered to actually keep the spell up. It is really hard to remember to do something *every* minute and exactly when the minute ends.
3) Another option, is to just cast it as often as you remember. Before entering each room, before opening a chest or closet or coffin, etc


Due to the above, you can absolutely move during whirlwind attack as per RAW. The only question is whether or not this extends its effective range, which is something to clear with your DM. My thoughts: since you can make an attack roll against creatures with 5' of you, since the ability does not specify that they have to be within 5' of you when you use the action, since you can move during it as per above, and since volley has a larger area and longer range (which is imbalanced and unfair), movement during whirlwind attack should be allowed. I am not sure, since you don't explicitly state it.
But if your assertion is that you can use Whirlwind attack to hit everyone with 5' of a 40' long path.... I think that is a *VERY* generous reading. Not only do I disagree, I would find it surprising to have more than a small minority of DMs agree with that.



Use tree stride when you get it to allow you to pop in and out of trees during a whirlwind attack, hitting everything that's near a tree and popping back in to move on to the next tree. This should work for all of the above reasons. Again, I don't at all agree that WWA allows movement to increase the number of valid targets.

OTOH, if you do manage to find a DM that allows this.... take two levels of Rogue so you can not hit everyone within 5' of an 8' path. Yeah, that sounds reasonable.....

Kadarai
2015-04-18, 12:03 PM
Sounds all fun and game but, quick question: if you are not to take the Polearm master feat, then why bother with sillelagh and don't just pump DEX and use a decent weapon? cause the only difference i see is a minimal +1 atk/dmg till lvl 12 and +1 Spell DC/Wisdom Save/skills vs +1 Init/Dex Save and skills. It really seems a bit wasteful to throw away a feat and make up all this wierd book-keeping for such a minimal bonus.
, especially since the normal ranger can do almost exactly the same and get some more useful feats and/or spells.

Shillelagh was made for classes with bigger a gap between theie casting and attacking stat like STR10/WIS18 clerics or druids. Using it to optimize a DEX14/WIS16 ranger which will probably be better also using bows for half the fights he will face seems a bit redundant.

Giant2005
2015-04-18, 12:09 PM
Sounds all fun and game but, quick question: if you are not to take the Polearm master feat, then why bother with sillelagh and don't just pump DEX and use a decent weapon? cause the only difference i see is a minimal +1 atk/dmg till lvl 12 and +1 Spell DC/Wisdom Save/skills vs +1 Init/Dex Save and skills. It really seems a bit wasteful to throw away a feat and make up all this wierd book-keeping for such a minimal bonus.
, especially since the normal ranger can do almost exactly the same and get some more useful feats and/or spells.

Shillelagh was made for classes with bigger a gap between theie casting and attacking stat like STR10/WIS18 clerics or druids. Using it to optimize a DEX14/WIS16 ranger which will probably be better also using bows for half the fights he will face seems a bit redundant.

It also costs a bonus action which would be better spent casting Hunter's Mark.

Symphony
2015-04-18, 12:22 PM
Taking a single level of druid or nature cleric seems like a much better alternative to being a variant human with the magic initiate feat.

You get at least as many cantrips. You get up to 6 level one druid or cleric spells prepared AND ritual casting, which is a huge help for the spell-starved ranger. You also get either heavy armor proficiency and an extra skill or the option to take a second level for wild shape (the first level druid spells seem a bit better than the cleric spells, IMO).

All you lose is slightly delayed ranger class features and the loss of the very meh ranger capstone.

Nature cleric is particularly good because of the extra cantrips (4 to the Druid's 2), extra prepared domain spells (not great choices), and extra skill (Animal Handling, Nature, or Survival). Druid also has the drawbacks of not allowing metal armor or shields.

The heavy armor proficiency is not that useful, because you need at least 13 dex to multiclass from ranger anyway, but if you go 13 str/13 dex, plate does get you one more AC than going 14 dex.

Edit: On top of all that, you can choose a non-variant human race. Or take variant human anyway and just grab a different feat.

Easy_Lee
2015-04-18, 01:38 PM
The reason for taking magic initiate was to make a SAD, effective single-classed ranger. Some may feel that a few levels of this or that would be better.

On whirlwind, see the lines I quoted in the OP. Movement between attacks is possible, and the hits from whirlwind attack are separate attacks because they have separate attack rolls. There's really no ambiguity there; you can move during whirlwind attack. The only question is: does whirlwind affect all creatures within 5' of you, or does it affect all creatures that were within 5' of you when you used it? The text does not say, though the wording leans towards the former. Ask your DM.

coredump
2015-04-18, 06:36 PM
On whirlwind, see the lines I quoted in the OP. Movement between attacks is possible, and the hits from whirlwind attack are separate attacks because they have separate attack rolls. There's really no ambiguity there; you can move during whirlwind attack. I have no problem with that.


The only question is: does whirlwind affect all creatures within 5' of you, or does it affect all creatures that were within 5' of you when you used it? The text does not say, though the wording leans towards the former. Ask your DM.I disagree, I think the wording is pretty clear that it only allows attacks for the people you are near when you take the action. But further, even if it did 'lean' the other way, that is so broken and just plain silly.... I can't see a DM agreeing to it.

SharkForce
2015-04-18, 11:09 PM
I have no problem with that.

I disagree, I think the wording is pretty clear that it only allows attacks for the people you are near when you take the action. But further, even if it did 'lean' the other way, that is so broken and just plain silly.... I can't see a DM agreeing to it.

meanwhile, archer rangers can just volley at everyone in a 20 foot radius from 600 feet away.

basically, the simple fact is that whirlwind attack sucks compared to volley unless you can move around in between. at which point it's still kinda risky unless you return to your starting point or some other place where you're not surrounded by angry enemies (also you must have mobile... without mobile, you're getting attacked as often as you attack anyways). plus you still can't just walk anywhere you want, and you lose out on distance when you go through difficult terrain or similar. it also is technically not an attack action, so you can't use TWF with it, so it loses synergy with your style. meanwhile, archery is getting full benefits from their style, and can buff their ranged attacks with ranger spells quite nicely (a popular combo is lightning arrow + volley, for example).

it sounds really powerful at first, but then when you sit down and actually compare it to the other option at that level, it really isn't particularly ridiculous.

coredump
2015-04-19, 12:21 AM
meanwhile, archer rangers can just volley at everyone in a 20 foot radius from 600 feet away.

basically, the simple fact is that whirlwind attack sucks compared to volley unless you can move around in between. at which point it's still kinda risky unless you return to your starting point or some other place where you're not surrounded by angry enemies (also you must have mobile... without mobile, you're getting attacked as often as you attack anyways). plus you still can't just walk anywhere you want, and you lose out on distance when you go through difficult terrain or similar. it also is technically not an attack action, so you can't use TWF with it, so it loses synergy with your style. meanwhile, archery is getting full benefits from their style, and can buff their ranged attacks with ranger spells quite nicely (a popular combo is lightning arrow + volley, for example).

it sounds really powerful at first, but then when you sit down and actually compare it to the other option at that level, it really isn't particularly ridiculous.

Volley needs all the targets to be in one group, you can't pick and choose which squares you want to hit. If WWA allows for 'eternal targeting' being able to pick and choose like that is a huge advantage.