Wildshape and Templates, how do they mix?

[Tempest Kitsune]

Hey all, playing a pure druid for the first time, and the campaign we're in has a lot of templates due to mutations and wild magic surges. For example, my character is a half-celestial Strongheart Halfling. Now my question is basically whether or not any animal form I shift in will have my own original template overlaid on it. The reason I ask is because the wording is a little iffy in regards to alternate form and this specific situation, at least as I'm reading it, and seems counter-acted by the first line on how it acts. Specifically:

"A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template"

and

"The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form."

Am I simply reading this in a far too munchkined manner, and I'm not actually able to overlay the template from my base form on my wildshape?

[eggynack]

I think you're thinking of this too much from the template end. Half-celestial grants you a number of things, and alternate form specifically tells you all the things you gain or lose from the ability. If a thing says you keep it then that's what happens, and if the thing says you lose it, then that also happens. It's the same way that you can be a bear, but still retain all the pertinent game statistics from the halfling.

[bekeleven]

You retain your own type and subtype, so you're still an Outsider (Halfling).

Your physical ability scores are still replaced. You still lose your old gross physical features and movement modes (such as wings and fly speeds). Your natural armor becomes the armor of your new form.

You retain any spell-like or supernatural abilities (besides breath/gaze attacks), including smite and daylight. You retain special qualities of your base form, such as darkvision, immunity to disease, energy resistance, damage reduction, spell resistance, and save bonuses. You retain your mental scores, including any adjustments from templates.

TLDR: Template is not calculated differently from base race. Apply alternate form to (Half-Celestial Halfling), do not apply Half Celestial to (Alternate Form Halfling).

[Tempest Kitsune]

Thank you for the prompt and concise replies; you've cleared things up perfectly.

[atemu1234]

TLDR: Template is not calculated differently from base race. Apply alternate form to (Half-Celestial Halfling), do not apply Half Celestial to (Alternate Form Halfling).

This, essentially.

[Tempest Kitsune]

By the way, I don't suppose anyone is aware of a more complete Druid's Handbook for 3.5 than the one at Brilliant Gameologists? I'm trying to figure out the best spells and feats to grab for an Arcanist and Striker type of build.

[nedz]

There are five Druid handbooks here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=399.0).

[Rebel7284]

By the way, I don't suppose anyone is aware of a more complete Druid's Handbook for 3.5 than the one at Brilliant Gameologists? I'm trying to figure out the best spells and feats to grab for an Arcanist and Striker type of build.

Try eggynack's mind!

On a more serious note, I keep hearing that he's working on something, but apparently that has been going on for months. To be fair, there is a LOT of content for druids.

[Vhaidara]

Try eggynack's mind!

On a more serious note, I keep hearing that he's working on something, but apparently that has been going on for months. To be fair, there is a LOT of content for druids.

Yeah, I've gotten to take a peak. IIRC, he is going through EVERY spell, animal companion option, and Wild Shape option. And rating all of them. The draft a year ago was good reading for a 3 hour flight.

[Tempest Kitsune]

Oh wow. Can't wait to see the finished product.

[eggynack]

Yeah, I've gotten to take a peak. IIRC, he is going through EVERY spell, animal companion option, and Wild Shape option. And rating all of them. The draft a year ago was good reading for a 3 hour flight.
Well, not quite all. The list I have for stuff tends towards reasonable to extremely high quality, with low quality stuff tending to be things that I think people evaluate incorrectly, or that I think could be viewed that way, like say superior magic fang, dessicate, or black bear as a wild shape form. Still about an order of magnitude longer than just about anything else on the topic, I think, especially because the descriptions are ridiculously long. Thing's pretty available for viewing to anyone who asks. Just not really ready for publishing, cause there are gaps (currently doing aquatic wild shape forms), and some necessary editing.

[Tempest Kitsune]

Thanks for the link Eggynack. Let's see... sweet merciful magicarp. Five hundred and eight pages and you're still not completely done? My god this is a novel. I am seriously impressed by your dedication. And a bit humbled.

[eggynack]

Thanks for the link Eggynack. Let's see... sweet merciful magicarp. Five hundred and eight pages and you're still not completely done? My god this is a novel. I am seriously impressed by your dedication. And a bit humbled.
Well, ya do a bit at a time, and then eventually you have lotsa druid stuff. Druids be complicated, after all. They touch just about every facet of the game in one way or another.

[bekeleven]

If you need help with wild shape forms, you know I'm always a resource. I'm thinking of writing an addendum to the MoMF Bible, which is great, but 9 years old at this point.

(Or instead of doing work, I could just write the word "NAGAHYDRA" in 26-point font.)

[eggynack]

If you need help with wild shape forms, you know I'm always a resource. I'm thinking of writing an addendum to the MoMF Bible, which is great, but 9 years old at this point.

Well, y'know, it is as it tends to be. If you want to see it, you can, and once there, commenting privileges exist, if you want to note stuff. I don't have any current plans to do a massive guide to all MoMF offered forms, though druid natively offers a pretty wide variety that could be noted. I suspect my wild shape list is better than what I have for animal companions, however. My list for that stuff is much better than it once was, including the badly undervalued fhorge (that thing is sweet), but it's not perfect, especially because the best options are so clearly better than the second best options. Like, how do you write anything else at a level when magebred ghost animals are right there, being strictly better in so many ways?

[bekeleven]

At the risk of sounding like a rube, how are you assembling that? Is there a magebred besides the one in ECS?

[eggynack]

At the risk of sounding like a rube, how are you assembling that? Is there a magebred besides the one in ECS?
There are two in five nations, specifically the magebred brown bear on 74, and the magebred ghost tiger on 75. You need to be from breland, which is weird, but it still really overshadows things. They are, in a word, ridiculous, and they are, in more words, just about strictly better than options that were already quite good, in ways that aren't irrelevant.

[bekeleven]

There are two in five nations, specifically the magebred brown bear on 74, and the magebred ghost tiger on 75. You need to be from breland, which is weird, but it still really overshadows things. They are, in a word, ridiculous, and they are, in more words, just about strictly better than options that were already quite good, in ways that aren't irrelevant.

Eh. Just because a creature with a template is in a different book from from the template, doesn't mean it's a valid wild shape target.

[eggynack]

Eh. Just because a creature with a template is in a different book from from the template, doesn't mean it's a valid wild shape target.
That part was talking about the weird animal companion stuff. Be pretty weird if a wild shape form required that you be of Breland.