Help excelling at save-based magic

[whisperwind1]

Hi all, i'm looking for some mechanical advice for my sorcerer. I'm playing a sorcerer of teh Starsoul bloodline, whose bloodline arcana dazzles any target that fails their save against my evocation spells. Accordingly, I've been trying to build my sorcerer as being save-centered.

My problem is that PC save DCs tend to be rather piddly in comparison to monster save DCs. Even now my 2nd lvl spells carry a save of 16 only, which is including the +1 from Spell Focus. So my question is, what can be done to improve my sorcerer's save DCs (keeping in mind that i want to maximize the synergy from my bloodline arcana)?

For reference, my sorcerer is a level 4 Catfolk with Spell Focus (Evocation) and 16 Charisma. Thanks for all suggestions!

[avr]

Unless you've got something weird set up you don't care whether your enemy is dazzled or not. That said, there are many good spells which require saves (mostly not evocation though).

First; make sure you have spells targeting more than one type of saves. Reflex is poor for many big monsters or heavily armored types, Will for many animal-like creatures, Fort may be poorish on the brains of the outfit (but on average, fort is a couple points higher than the other two). This is the important one. Know thy enemy, if you can.

Enemies which are shaken or entangled or something have save penalties. It may be worth trying to set this up with tanglefoot bags or intimidate or whatever.

Later on the Persistent Spell metamagic feat makes a bunch of low level spells (e.g. Glitterdust) good again.

[Necromancy]

Kind of a weird bloodline, not sure why you picked it.

[atemu1234]

Kind of a weird bloodline, not sure why you picked it.

Yes, why? I'd like to know.

[whisperwind1]

Kind of a weird bloodline, not sure why you picked it.

Not gonna lie, the only reason I picked this bloodline is because of the level 15 bloodline power. You really can't beat being able to instantly teleport someone into the cold, airless void of space. Its just too good to pass up.

[whisperwind1]

Unless you've got something weird set up you don't care whether your enemy is dazzled or not. That said, there are many good spells which require saves (mostly not evocation though).

First; make sure you have spells targeting more than one type of saves. Reflex is poor for many big monsters or heavily armored types, Will for many animal-like creatures, Fort may be poorish on the brains of the outfit (but on average, fort is a couple points higher than the other two). This is the important one. Know thy enemy, if you can.

Enemies which are shaken or entangled or something have save penalties. It may be worth trying to set this up with tanglefoot bags or intimidate or whatever.

Later on the Persistent Spell metamagic feat makes a bunch of low level spells (e.g. Glitterdust) good again.

well the only reason I chose to specialize in Evocation is to synergize with the bloodline arcana ability. I dunno, stacking a -1 to attack rolls seemed like a neat thing to put on top of whatever save effect. And the arcana ability only works on Evocation spells btw.

[Geddy2112]

I am also currently playing a starsoul sorcerer- at higher levels your powers are pretty nice, I reccomend getting a ring of sustenance to combo with your no longer needing to breathe.

To answer your question, you get your saves to be better the same way any other caster does.
1. Increase your casting stat-circlet of persuasion is fairly affordable, headband of alluring charisma as you can afford, put your stat increases in charisma.
2. Cast higher level spells- make sure you have at least 1 evocation spell per level. The dazzling effect is pretty minor, but it stacks with almost anything and is a nice freebie to spells you would use anyways. Often times you will find that you want a more powerful disabling spell for the big nasty monsters. Where it works best is AoE spells against scrubs and hordes- things that already need a high roll to hit AC of the party and lower saves.
3. Weaken your opponents saves- most evocation is reflex based, so anything that damages dex works here. Sickened, shakened, etc.
4. Take spell focus and greater spell focus, use penetrating and bouncing metamagic.

A good synergy spell is blistering invective-normally a bard spell, it is evocation and intimidation in 30ft. See if your sorcerer can study bards and try and learn it.

[whisperwind1]

I am also currently playing a starsoul sorcerer- at higher levels your powers are pretty nice, I reccomend getting a ring of sustenance to combo with your no longer needing to breathe.

To answer your question, you get your saves to be better the same way any other caster does.
1. Increase your casting stat-circlet of persuasion is fairly affordable, headband of alluring charisma as you can afford, put your stat increases in charisma.


I've checked the Circlet of Persuasion and it gives +3 to any Charisma based checks. Now here's my question, does this translate to a bonus to my Charisma stat for the purposes of calculating save DCS? How exactly does the item boost my save DCs?

[whisperwind1]

Here's another question. I'm looking at Touch of Gracelessness and Jitterbugs to be my Dex-gimping spell for the purposes of making my Evocation saves harder.

Touch of Gracelessness seems great and all, but its a touch spell, and getting close to the enemy is not what a blasty sorcerer should do. Is there anything I can do to boost the range, or turn it into a ranged touch attack?

Jitterbugs also looks amazing, but it says the -4 applies to all Dex based checks. Now does this mean it would also apply to a Reflex save, since Reflex depends on Dex as one of its modifiers?

[whisperwind1]

Here's another question. I'm looking at Touch of Gracelessness and Jitterbugs to be my Dex-gimping spell for the purposes of making my Evocation saves harder.

Touch of Gracelessness seems great and all, but its a touch spell, and getting close to the enemy is not what a blasty sorcerer should do. Is there anything I can do to boost the range, or turn it into a ranged touch attack?

Jitterbugs also looks amazing, but it says the -4 applies to all Dex based checks. Now does this mean it would also apply to a Reflex save, since Reflex depends on Dex as one of its modifiers?

Lol, small addendum here. I found the Feat called Reach Spell, which does exactly what I asked for melee touch spells (turns them into ranged touch spells). So my question changes to, what would be worthwhile, using my 5th level Feat to get Reach Spell or greater spell focus: Evocation?

[avr]

I've checked the Circlet of Persuasion and it gives +3 to any Charisma based checks. Now here's my question, does this translate to a bonus to my Charisma stat for the purposes of calculating save DCS? How exactly does the item boost my save DCs?
It doesn't boost your save DCs. It does boost your concentration checks.

Lol, small addendum here. I found the Feat called Reach Spell, which does exactly what I asked for melee touch spells (turns them into ranged touch spells). So my question changes to, what would be worthwhile, using my 5th level Feat to get Reach Spell or greater spell focus: Evocation?
Since you don't have a damage boosting bloodline (no, the dazzle thing really doesn't matter) your focus on Evocation spells is severely mistaken IMO. Reach Spell will be more useful.

Edit: You know what is good about the bloodline? The bonus spells. Note that you get Glitterdust for free and compare dazzle as a condition to blindness. Unseen Servant, Blink, Overland Flight; these are all useful. Call Lightning Storm will only be really good if you're fighting an army from the battlements of a castle or some similar situation when time is not an issue, but every bloodline has some situational or poor spells.

[whisperwind1]

It doesn't boost your save DCs. It does boost your concentration checks.

Since you don't have a damage boosting bloodline (no, the dazzle thing really doesn't matter) your focus on Evocation spells is severely mistaken IMO. Reach Spell will be more useful.

Edit: You know what is good about the bloodline? The bonus spells. Note that you get Glitterdust for free and compare dazzle as a condition to blindness. Unseen Servant, Blink, Overland Flight; these are all useful.

To answer your first point, I am playing a blasty sorcerer who focuses on doing the most damage possible. That said I didn't game my character concept overmuch, I picked Starsoul because it was really funny (i'm playing what amounts to a magical catgirl, I already have a Metamagic Rod of Merciful lol). Now this isn't a "joke" character, so I still want to be good at what I've chosen to do, despite the selected bloodline. Which is why, if I have this arcana that gives me a bonus (even a measly one), i'm going to make the most of it. I think using Reach Spell and Touch of Gracelessness to set up my save spells is a great suggestion btw (because even if it fails, there's partial Dex Damage).

And for the second point, I agree that the spells for the bloodline are very versatile and useful. The only one I can never picture a use for is Unseen Servant, because I can't see it ever coming up. Any suggestion?

[Kurald Galain]

For reference, my sorcerer is a level 4 Catfolk with Spell Focus (Evocation) and 16 Charisma. Thanks for all suggestions!

Well, there's your problem. You could have 23 charisma by now without much trouble (18 point buy, +2 racial, +1 level boost, +2 headband).

[Geddy2112]

To answer your first point, I am playing a blasty sorcerer who focuses on doing the most damage possible. That said I didn't game my character concept overmuch, I picked Starsoul because it was really funny (i'm playing what amounts to a magical catgirl, I already have a Metamagic Rod of Merciful lol). Now this isn't a "joke" character, so I still want to be good at what I've chosen to do, despite the selected bloodline. Which is why, if I have this arcana that gives me a bonus (even a measly one), i'm going to make the most of it. I think using Reach Spell and Touch of Gracelessness to set up my save spells is a great suggestion btw (because even if it fails, there's partial Dex Damage).

And for the second point, I agree that the spells for the bloodline are very versatile and useful. The only one I can never picture a use for is Unseen Servant, because I can't see it ever coming up. Any suggestion?

Touch of gracelessness as a reach spell is really good, because sucking the dex out of something is never bad- a great 1/2 punch for the BBEG, because you can hit with evocation damage to also try and put the dazzle, but really dazzling is just icing on the cake when you get it- evocation spells stand on their own merits as do debuffs. By setting up a chance to give a -1 to attack, you might very well just kill your opponent.

Unseen servant is fantastic-basically use it in dungeons to check for traps. 20 lbs of force will open any unlocked and not stuck door, set off a fair amount of pressure plates, trip wires etc. It is also just an extra set of hands whenever you need-most of these applications are in roleplay but still handy.

[avr]

Unseen Servant can be used to place caltrops without spending actions, to grab dropped weapons (if you stun someone, say with Color Spray, they drop their weapons; they can't pick them up again if your servant has floated them away), it can deliver potions and administer healing potions to your comrade who's bleeding out, it can be used to convince enemies that somone invisible is sneaking past - it's not just a non-combat spell. Though it is also useful out of combat.

The duration is an hour/level which isn't quite long enough to be active all day (yet) but it is long enough to be a basic precaution before going anywhere interesting.

[whisperwind1]

Well, there's your problem. You could have 23 charisma by now without much trouble (18 point buy, +2 racial, +1 level boost, +2 headband).

You're totally right, but I have this thing where I refuse to min-max my characters by lowering a stat to get point-buy points. All my characters (with rare exceptions), will have at least 10 in a stat