Worldshaping Spell (metamagic feat) - is there any way to balance this?

[ezkajii]

Worldshaping Spell [Metamagic]
Prerequisites: Caster level 20th, Widen Spell, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, must be able to cast permanency
Benefit: You can modify a spell to permanently affect the world you live in. Any spell with a fixed duration other than instantaneous which affects an area (i.e. is eligible for modification with both Extend Spell and Widen Spell) can be made worldshaping. A worldshaping spell's casting time changes to 1 week per unmodified spell level, its duration to permanent, and its area changes so that it affects the entire plane you are on when the spell is cast. All worldshaping spells have an XP component, costing 1000xp per unmodified spell level. A worldshaping spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than normal; no metamagic adjustment-reducing abilities can reduce this adjustment to less than +1.
Once the worldshaping spell is cast, you cannot use magic (including arcane and divine spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, and alternate systems such as incarnum, mysteries, invocations, etc.) for 1 day per unmodified spell level.

So, is this balanced? If not, is there any way to make a feat or concept like this balanced/practical in an actual game?

[Zaydos]

As intended I'm not sure of a way it would break.

As written... you can use this to get XP free permanencied Antilife Shell (requires -3 levels of mm), permanent Bless on all allies ever (50-ft radius burst), Detect Scrying, etc. I assume it's not actually supposed to work on Emanations, and things like Bless which affect creatures instantaneously and then have a duration upon them, but only spells with fixed locations and an enduring effect on that location, if I'm wrong let me know.

I would say as intended (if I have the intent right) it's not overpowered (it lets you make a badass fortress but unless you are getting attacked a lot that won't be the biggest strength), but between the casting time and the duration in which you cannot cast spells it's not practical for use. I'd probably reduce the casting time, remove the other or reduce it to minutes/hours to represent spell fatigue (and maybe make the caster fatigued). This makes it so you don't have to have "You have a year to fool around" in to use. I'd also be tempted to reduce the spell level increase and possibly make it 500 XP and 500 GP per level instead of 1000 XP per level.

[ezkajii]

As intended I'm not sure of a way it would break.

As written... you can use this to get XP free permanencied Antilife Shell (requires -3 levels of mm), permanent Bless on all allies ever (50-ft radius burst), Detect Scrying, etc. I assume it's not actually supposed to work on Emanations, and things like Bless which affect creatures instantaneously and then have a duration upon them, but only spells with fixed locations and an enduring effect on that location, if I'm wrong let me know.

I would say as intended (if I have the intent right) it's not overpowered (it lets you make a badass fortress but unless you are getting attacked a lot that won't be the biggest strength), but between the casting time and the duration in which you cannot cast spells it's not practical for use. I'd probably reduce the casting time, remove the other or reduce it to minutes/hours to represent spell fatigue (and maybe make the caster fatigued). This makes it so you don't have to have "You have a year to fool around" in to use. I'd also be tempted to reduce the spell level increase and possibly make it 500 XP and 500 GP per level instead of 1000 XP per level.

Hmm, okay. Did some more research, I'm thinking of changing it to only affect emanations which are centered on a point in space, and spreads, and only spells that allow no saving throw.

The intent is to allow you to have a widespread and lasting effect on some plane of existence, shaping it to your desires. There is certainly a lot of discretion the caster must use in spell selection, at least if they have any intention of spending any time on the plane they alter.
I wouldn't have guessed that my drawbacks/mitigating factors were excessive! What about reducing the casting time increase to one day per level? I don't want to make it too easy to cast a Worldshaping spell - the idea is kind of that it's for when a person is really dedicated to getting some effect to be present everywhere, so you occasionally devote a large amount of personal resources to it, rather than being used the way most metamagics are. Of course, obviously I still want people to actually want to take and use the feat, so it can't be too heavily penalized.

[Zaydos]

Hmm, okay. Did some more research, I'm thinking of changing it to only affect emanations which are centered on a point in space, and spreads, and only spells that allow no saving throw.

The intent is to allow you to have a widespread and lasting effect on some plane of existence, shaping it to your desires. There is certainly a lot of discretion the caster must use in spell selection, at least if they have any intention of spending any time on the plane they alter.
I wouldn't have guessed that my drawbacks/mitigating factors were excessive! What about reducing the casting time increase to one day per level? I don't want to make it too easy to cast a Worldshaping spell - the idea is kind of that it's for when a person is really dedicated to getting some effect to be present everywhere, so you occasionally devote a large amount of personal resources to it, rather than being used the way most metamagics are. Of course, obviously I still want people to actually want to take and use the feat, so it can't be too heavily penalized.

I missed the entire plane line. In that case definitely keep the casting time/down time, and probably increase the XP cost. You're talking about being able to summon tentacles that attack everyone on the Prime Material Plane here. It's actually probably impossible to actually balance with that actually and falls into Plot Device (it means a 21st level wizard can at their whim kill everything on the plane with Evard's Black Tentacles, among other spells), and probably needs to have an actually limited area of effect still.

[ezkajii]

Version 2:

Worldshaping Spell [Epic] [Metamagic]
Prerequisites: Caster level 30th, Widen Spell, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, must be able to cast permanency
Benefit: You can modify a spell to permanently affect the world you live in. Any spell whose area is an emanation or spread centered on a point in space, which has a duration other than instantaneous, and does not offer a saving throw can be made worldshaping. A worldshaping spell's casting time changes to 1 week per unmodified spell level, its duration to permanent, and its area changes so that it affects the entire plane you are on when the spell is cast. All worldshaping spells have an XP component, costing 5000xp per unmodified spell level. A worldshaping spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than normal; no metamagic adjustment-reducing abilities can reduce this adjustment to less than +1.
Once the worldshaping spell is cast, you cannot use magic (including arcane and divine spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, and alternate systems such as incarnum, mysteries, invocations, etc.) for 1 day per unmodified spell level.


Does that seem more reasonable?

[JeenLeen]

A worldshaping spell's casting time changes to 1 week per unmodified spell level, its duration to permanent, and its area changes so that it affects the entire plane you are on when the spell is cast. All worldshaping spells have an XP component, costing 5000xp per unmodified spell level. A worldshaping spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than normal; no metamagic adjustment-reducing abilities can reduce this adjustment to less than +1.
Once the worldshaping spell is cast, you cannot use magic (including arcane and divine spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, and alternate systems such as incarnum, mysteries, invocations, etc.) for 1 day per unmodified spell level.


Although those limitations do help balance the spell, in a sense, they also (except the +6 spell levels) don't in a sense. A spellcaster who wants to use this would presumably cast it at a time (using divinations and such to make sure it's relatively safe) that it wouldn't impact them negatively to be out of commission for about a week. If they have an ally epic caster to buff them for that week, it's barely a setback.

For use by a player, it sets up an unfortunate dynamic of "does the DM screw you over now" verses "I hole myself up until I can cast again, so I am safe, right?" That can lead to a ticked off player.

I guess what I'm getting to is that those are annoyances the player has to deal with, but they don't really balance the spell because it doesn't modify the power of the spell.

For it being restricted to emanations like x, that might work. I'm not clear enough on all the spells to know. It seems like it'd be very, very hard to balance because you can change the plane in strange ways, which is, well, worldshaping as noted in the name :smalltongue:

One mechanical question: since it impacts the entire plane, could casting Dispel Magic (of a sufficiently epic form) upon any spot in the plane dispel the entire thing?
Also, how does this metamagic compare to epic magic? Would it be easier to get the feat to unlock epic spellcasting and make a spell than use this?

[ezkajii]

Although those limitations do help balance the spell, in a sense, they also (except the +6 spell levels) don't in a sense. A spellcaster who wants to use this would presumably cast it at a time (using divinations and such to make sure it's relatively safe) that it wouldn't impact them negatively to be out of commission for about a week. If they have an ally epic caster to buff them for that week, it's barely a setback.

For use by a player, it sets up an unfortunate dynamic of "does the DM screw you over now" verses "I hole myself up until I can cast again, so I am safe, right?" That can lead to a ticked off player.

I guess what I'm getting to is that those are annoyances the player has to deal with, but they don't really balance the spell because it doesn't modify the power of the spell.

For it being restricted to emanations like x, that might work. I'm not clear enough on all the spells to know. It seems like it'd be very, very hard to balance because you can change the plane in strange ways, which is, well, worldshaping as noted in the name :smalltongue:

One mechanical question: since it impacts the entire plane, could casting Dispel Magic (of a sufficiently epic form) upon any spot in the plane dispel the entire thing?
Also, how does this metamagic compare to epic magic? Would it be easier to get the feat to unlock epic spellcasting and make a spell than use this?

Yes, casting a sufficiently-powerful dispel/disjunction effect upon any affected area would end the spell, as normal. For the comparison to epic magic - yeah, it would probably be easier to just get Epic Spellcasting and craft a huge version of it than to mess with this feat, I hadn't really considered that. Ideally I'd like to have this kind of function available pre-epic. I'm wondering now if it might make more sense to homebrew a magic location or some sort of artifact to facilitate this, instead of a metamagic feat. That could actually make a really good side-quest plot hook...

[JeenLeen]

If you want it as an aspect of a campaign more than for a build, I'd recommend going with something like that. Make a McGuffin area or item that enables one to alter the entire plane. (Perhaps also put a limitation on it (like works 1/1000 years, or at least like that for a given person) if you want to limit PC use and potential abuse of it.)

You can just make it a greater artifact that works like X instead of making technical mechanics behind how it functions and worrying about balance.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

It's definitely not something I'd ever allow in a game: it's either very niche and a good way to cripple yourself (Bless for everyone, but a week of downtime for the caster), or it's hideously overpowering. Using just level 3 or lower spells we can wreck the game: Sleet Storm, for example, makes vision impossible across the entire plane and cuts speed by half.

I think you'd be better off making this plot-point level magic not associated with a feat: all the situations where this is actually worth taking are situations that you, as a DM, won't want to deal with.

[ezkajii]

Okay, so it sounds like the best option is to make this a non-feat thing. What modifications could I/we make to the feat itself to make it practical, playable, and desirable? Maybe do like Persist:Extend::This:Widen - make area spells affect like like 1 mile/level or something, and then treat it more like a normal metamagic feat?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Okay, so it sounds like the best option is to make this a non-feat thing. What modifications could I/we make to the feat itself to make it practical, playable, and desirable? Maybe do like Persist:Extend::This:Widen - make area spells affect like like 1 mile/level or something, and then treat it more like a normal metamagic feat?

An area increase of ten times (and a non-permanent duration) might be appropriate. Compares favorably to Widen Spell's twofold increase, while keeping the spell within the realms of possibility. Maybe for +2 or +3 spell levels. I don't think increasing the area of a spell will ever be as powerful as making buffs last all day, so I can't see it being worth a feat slot at a +4 or +6 spell level cost.

[Zaydos]

Do you want to keep the permanent duration part? If so it'll never be a normal metamagic, it'll need some cost XP or GP cost still. If you're removing that, make it... say Geographical Spell and make it require Widen, increase the spell level by say 1 over Widen, and make it a 10 fold area, or castable as a ritual with a casting time of n hours and an area of say 1 mile per 5-ft (so bless would be a 10 mile radius, fireball a 4 mile radius, antimagic field would negate magic in a 2 mile radius around you, and detect magic would be a 12 mile emanation).

[inuyasha]

You could really ruin someones (permanent) day with the DAYLIGHT SPELL!

hehehe

shut up I'm funny

[ace rooster]

I see what you are trying to do, but xp costs, material components, or even temporary/permenant loss of spell casting are never going to balance making the entire material plane suddenly and unexpectedly uninhabitable.

What you could do is get rid of the sudden and unexpected bit.


Worldshaping spell (Rooster Variant):

A worldshaping spell has no fixed area, instead being a permanent spell that can have it's area added to at a later date. A worldshaping spell has to be cast on a gem, which serves as the origin for the spell. For every subsequent casting of the worldshaping spell on the gem the spread increases by the initial radius over a period of a day. The spell cannot be increased in size more than once a day, though after ever month that does not have a day missed the rate of advance can double at the casters discression (increasing the sacrifice).

In effect the spell functions as many castings, rather than a single monolithic casting, and as such dispel and similar effects only modify an area the size of the unmodified spell. Dispel checks are made at the min caster level for the spell however, and in effect push back the advancing effect. Destruction of the gem ends the spell, causing it to recede at 10 times it's normal speed of advance. Moving the gem does not end the spell, but causes the effect to recede at it's normal speed until the gem is replaced.
If the gem is replaced the effect will grow to it's previous size without additional castings, and will resist any further castings until it has done so.

This spell requires 1HD of sacrifices of sentient creatures per spell level (unmodified) per casting, though HD carry over (ie, a 10HD sacrifice would last 10 days). Initially the min int for a sacrifice is 1, but for each doubling in the speed of advance the min int increases by 1. Willing sacrifices count as int 1 higher, and you can also make sacrifices count as 1 int higher by sacrificing 10 times as many. Note that good creatures will sometimes give their lives for the greater good, so this is not an evil effect.
Additionally the casting time is increased to 8 hours, though the rapid spell metamagic can bring this down to 1 hour.

Finally, within 1% of the total radius of the spell is considered a "strong magical effect", and as such disrupts teleportation spells.

(Not sure how much adjustment it needs still)


How does that fit? It gives you provision to do terrifying things to the world without them happening instantly. This gives ragtag teams of plucky adventures time to prevent the destruction of the world, and the fixed nature of the gem gives them a target that even fighter smash can work against.

You could maybe make a similar effect for building WMD type spells (and storing them in gems ready to be unleashed), that store spells like fireball rather than emanations. I like the Zaydos' idea of 4mile fireballs :smallbiggrin:. If it works as multiple castings rather than a single monolithic casting then summon monster versions would become summon army, which could be really cool.

Just some thoughts :smallsmile:

[ezkajii]

Inspired by Ace Rooster's excellent revisions and Zaydos' wonderful ideas/suggestions, I present to you three new feats.

Worldshaping Spell [Metamagic]
You can anchor a spell effect into a powerful magical device known as a spell well.
Prerequisites: Earthbound Spell, Extend Spell, Widen Spell; must be able to cast permanency
Benefit: Any spell whose area is an emanation or spread centered on a point in space, which has a duration other than instantaneous, and which does not offer a saving throw can become a worldshaping spell. A worldshaping spell has its casting time is increased to one hour per unmodified spell level (or the spell's original casting time, if longer), it gains an additional XP cost equal to 500xp per unmodified spell level, and its duration changes to permanent. When you cast a worldshaping spell, you also create a spell well, a special magical effect coexisting in a five foot radius from the center of the effect. This spell well acts as the anchoring point for the spell and can be used to fuel the spell's growth.
If a living creature of Intelligence 1 or greater and which possesses at least twice as many HD as the spell's unmodified spell level is sacrificed into the spell well (a ritual requiring 10 minutes of time, and which must take place within the area of the spell well), the spell's area of effect is increased by its original amount (effectively doubling it). Further sacrifices can be made into the spell well to further increase its area, though no more than one sacrifice can be made per day. Each further sacrifice requires a creature with an Intelligence score 1 higher and 2HD more than the previous sacrifice's requirements; thus, the second sacrifice for a third level spell would require a creature of Int 2+ and 8+HD, the third sacrifice would require Int3+ and 10+HD, and so on. Alternatively, two creatures which meet the previous sacrifice level's requirements can be substitued, four which meet the requirements of two levels prior, 8 which meet three levels prior, and so forth.
A successful dispel effect cast within the spell's area will reduce the total area by an amount equal to the spell's original area, effectively undoing the effect of the most recent sacrifice (but not resetting or reverting the further-sacrifice requirements). A disjunction spell cast on the spell well itself will unravel the spell well and end the entire spell's effect.
A worldshaping spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than normal.

War Spell [Metamagic]
You can enhance your spells to affect whole battlefields.
Prerequisite: Widen Spell
Benefit: You can alter a burst, emanation, spread, or line shaped spell to increase its area, or modify a spell which targets a specific number of creatures within range so that it affects more targtes. A war spell has its area increased to 10 times its original value, or affects 10 times as many targets (if there is a restriction on how far targets may be from one another, that distance is likewise multiplied by 10). If the spell's new area would necessarily make it extend outside the spell's range, its range is increased by an amount equal to the largest dimension of the spell's area of effect.
A war spell uses up a spell level four levels higher than normal.

Ritualized Spell [Metamagic]
You've learned to greatly increase the power of your spells by dedicating more resources to their casting.
Prerequisite: Cooperative Spell
Benefit: You may increase the effectiveness of a spell by expanding upon and formalizing its casting. A ritualized spell's casting time changes to one half-hour per unmodified spell level and requires additional participants equal to the unmodified spell level for each modification made to the spell. (A participant is defined as a willing spellcaster capable of casting spells of the type [arcane or divine] and level of the spell being ritualized. All participants expend a spell slot of the same level upon completion of the casting.) For example, a fireball spell modified in two different ways would require 3 hours to cast and 6 ritual participants. A ritualized spell can be modified in the following ways.
Duration: A single modification of this type increases the spell's duration by one step along the following path:
duration measured in rounds -> measured in minutes -> hours -> days -> weeks -> years -> permanent
Range: A single modification of this type increases the spell's maximum range by two steps along the following path:
range of personal -> touch -> medium -> long -> 1000ft plus 100ft/level -> 1 mile/level -> 10 miles/level -> 100 miles/level -> unlimited range
Area: A single modification of this type increases the spell's area by 5 times its original value. (Thus, one area modification results in a spell with 6x the area, two results in 11x the area, and so on.)
Effect: A single modification of this type increases the result of any variable numeric effects by one step along the following path:
normal -> empowered (1.5x) -> doubled -> maximized -> maximized and doubled -> maximized and tripled

A ritualized spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level.

[ace rooster]

Inspired by Ace Rooster's excellent revisions and Zaydos' wonderful ideas/suggestions, I present to you three new feats.

Worldshaping Spell [Metamagic]
You can anchor a spell effect into a powerful magical device known as a spell well.
Prerequisites: Earthbound Spell, Extend Spell, Widen Spell; must be able to cast permanency
Benefit: Any spell whose area is an emanation or spread centered on a point in space, which has a duration other than instantaneous, and which does not offer a saving throw can become a worldshaping spell. A worldshaping spell has its casting time is increased to one hour per unmodified spell level (or the spell's original casting time, if longer), it gains an additional XP cost equal to 500xp per unmodified spell level, and its duration changes to permanent. When you cast a worldshaping spell, you also create a spell well, a special magical effect coexisting in a five foot radius from the center of the effect. This spell well acts as the anchoring point for the spell and can be used to fuel the spell's growth.
If a living creature of Intelligence 1 or greater and which possesses at least twice as many HD as the spell's unmodified spell level is sacrificed into the spell well (a ritual requiring 10 minutes of time, and which must take place within the area of the spell well), the spell's area of effect is increased by its original amount (effectively doubling it). Further sacrifices can be made into the spell well to further increase its area, though no more than one sacrifice can be made per day. Each further sacrifice requires a creature with an Intelligence score 1 higher and 2HD more than the previous sacrifice's requirements; thus, the second sacrifice for a third level spell would require a creature of Int 2+ and 8+HD, the third sacrifice would require Int3+ and 10+HD, and so on. Alternatively, two creatures which meet the previous sacrifice level's requirements can be substitued, four which meet the requirements of two levels prior, 8 which meet three levels prior, and so forth.
A successful dispel effect cast within the spell's area will reduce the total area by an amount equal to the spell's original area, effectively undoing the effect of the most recent sacrifice (but not resetting or reverting the further-sacrifice requirements). A disjunction spell cast on the spell well itself will unravel the spell well and end the entire spell's effect.
A worldshaping spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than normal.


I'm not sure I fully understand your intention now, or even what this does. Does each sacrifice increase the area by the original area, increase the radius by the original radius, double the area covered, or double the radius covered? The first one works very slowly, taking 10,000 days (30 years) to increase the radius by a factor of 100. This would be an area of about a square kilometer for a 20ft radius spell, which is not big. The second works in a reasonable timescale for wards, but the sacrifices rapidly get ludicrous. Getting to a radius 10 times the original requires multiple high HD sacrifices, or hundreds of mid HD sacrifices. Getting to 100 times radius would require sacrifices in the millions. The next two have the opposite problem; One of three things happen; there comes a point when somebody starts dispelling the effect, then goes after the caster, the caster runs out of suitable sacrifices, or the effect engulfs the entire universe within a month or two. Expect things to happen fast.

Are you wanting a way to build permanent wards for a location you control (defensive use), or are you wanting to modify the whole plane including areas outside of your control (offensive use)? If it is intended for wards then robustness is important, so being vulnerable to a simple dispel is a big problem. If it is intended to make war on the world then this is too fast to make interesting stories, or too slow to be effective.

Also your rules for sacrifices have some odd consequences. Horses are valid sacrifices for 2nd level spells, but standard humans are not for any. Even Ogres are generally too low HD to make effective sacrifices, while animals are limited to the first couple of sacrifices, but can have enough HD. The best sacrifices seem to be giants, as these are numerous enough and powerful enough. If you can capture enough dragons you might be able to cover the universe though.



War Spell [Metamagic]
You can enhance your spells to affect whole battlefields.
Prerequisite: Widen Spell
Benefit: You can alter a burst, emanation, spread, or line shaped spell to increase its area, or modify a spell which targets a specific number of creatures within range so that it affects more targtes. A war spell has its area increased to 10 times its original value, or affects 10 times as many targets (if there is a restriction on how far targets may be from one another, that distance is likewise multiplied by 10). If the spell's new area would necessarily make it extend outside the spell's range, its range is increased by an amount equal to the largest dimension of the spell's area of effect.
A war spell uses up a spell level four levels higher than normal.


Looks fine to me. Personally I think widen is over charged for anyway. 200ft is not a huge radius, certainly not covering a battlefield.



Ritualized Spell [Metamagic]
You've learned to greatly increase the power of your spells by dedicating more resources to their casting.
Prerequisite: Cooperative Spell
Benefit: You may increase the effectiveness of a spell by expanding upon and formalizing its casting. A ritualized spell's casting time changes to one half-hour per unmodified spell level and requires additional participants equal to the unmodified spell level for each modification made to the spell. (A participant is defined as a willing spellcaster capable of casting spells of the type [arcane or divine] and level of the spell being ritualized. All participants expend a spell slot of the same level upon completion of the casting.) For example, a fireball spell modified in two different ways would require 3 hours to cast and 6 ritual participants. A ritualized spell can be modified in the following ways.
Duration: A single modification of this type increases the spell's duration by one step along the following path:
duration measured in rounds -> measured in minutes -> hours -> days -> weeks -> years -> permanent
Range: A single modification of this type increases the spell's maximum range by two steps along the following path:
range of personal -> touch -> medium -> long -> 1000ft plus 100ft/level -> 1 mile/level -> 10 miles/level -> 100 miles/level -> unlimited range
Area: A single modification of this type increases the spell's area by 5 times its original value. (Thus, one area modification results in a spell with 6x the area, two results in 11x the area, and so on.)
Effect: A single modification of this type increases the result of any variable numeric effects by one step along the following path:
normal -> empowered (1.5x) -> doubled -> maximized -> maximized and doubled -> maximized and tripled

A ritualized spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level.

Probably game breaking in many of the same ways as epic spellcasting. Permanent greater invisability becomes easy for example, and 7 casters are all that is needed to produce permanent summoned creatures. 8 clerics can produce any buffs permanently, so you would expect characters to have all buffs, including personal range ones.

[ezkajii]

I'm not sure I fully understand your intention now, or even what this does. Does each sacrifice increase the area by the original area, increase the radius by the original radius, double the area covered, or double the radius covered? The first one works very slowly, taking 10,000 days (30 years) to increase the radius by a factor of 100. This would be an area of about a square kilometer for a 20ft radius spell, which is not big. The second works in a reasonable timescale for wards, but the sacrifices rapidly get ludicrous. Getting to a radius 10 times the original requires multiple high HD sacrifices, or hundreds of mid HD sacrifices. Getting to 100 times radius would require sacrifices in the millions. The next two have the opposite problem; One of three things happen; there comes a point when somebody starts dispelling the effect, then goes after the caster, the caster runs out of suitable sacrifices, or the effect engulfs the entire universe within a month or two. Expect things to happen fast.

Are you wanting a way to build permanent wards for a location you control (defensive use), or are you wanting to modify the whole plane including areas outside of your control (offensive use)? If it is intended for wards then robustness is important, so being vulnerable to a simple dispel is a big problem. If it is intended to make war on the world then this is too fast to make interesting stories, or too slow to be effective.

Also your rules for sacrifices have some odd consequences. Horses are valid sacrifices for 2nd level spells, but standard humans are not for any. Even Ogres are generally too low HD to make effective sacrifices, while animals are limited to the first couple of sacrifices, but can have enough HD. The best sacrifices seem to be giants, as these are numerous enough and powerful enough. If you can capture enough dragons you might be able to cover the universe though.

I'm not sure I follow all of your math/logic there, but I put in a couple of spells and tried them out to see the results. Certainly not what I was going for. My revision:
A sacrifice must have a minimum Intelligence score and number of HD equal to the spell level; each subsequent sacrifice requires the creature have an Intelligence score and number of HD 5 greater than the previous requirement. Each sacrifice increases the spell's area by one order of magnitude. A sacrifice can be substituted by for by 4 creatures whose Int and HD are 5 lower than required, 16 whose Int and HD are 10 lower, and so on.
Dispel checks function as described previously, undoing the effect of the last sacrifice's effect on the spell's area, but the DC of the dispel check is increased by +2 for each sacrifice performed (multiple lower-Int/HD creatures count as a single sacrifice).

As far as 1-level Commoners not being worth much for sacrifices - that's intentional.


Looks fine to me. Personally I think widen is over charged for anyway. 200ft is not a huge radius, certainly not covering a battlefield.

Excellent! Should I increase the enlargement even further, do you think?


Probably game breaking in many of the same ways as epic spellcasting. Permanent greater invisability becomes easy for example, and 7 casters are all that is needed to produce permanent summoned creatures. 8 clerics can produce any buffs permanently, so you would expect characters to have all buffs, including personal range ones.

I may not have made the instructions as clear as I should. A greater invisibility made to be permanent, with no other modifications, would require 12 hours to cast and 25 spellcasters all sacrificing a fourth-level spell slot. 8 clerics could make a 1st-level spell whose duration is measured in rounds permanent (actually, six could do it), but no spells higher than that.
Casting time = 30 minutes x spell level x number of modifications
Number of ritual participants = 1 + (spell level x number of modifications)
With cantrips counting as 1/2 spell level (I should've added that note.) So making a 9th-level buff with duration expressed in rounds and range of personal applying permanently to an ally would require 64 spellcasters expending a 9th level slot and taking 31.5 hours to cast.

[ace rooster]

I'm not sure I follow all of your math/logic there, but I put in a couple of spells and tried them out to see the results. Certainly not what I was going for. My revision:
A sacrifice must have a minimum Intelligence score and number of HD equal to the spell level; each subsequent sacrifice requires the creature have an Intelligence score and number of HD 5 greater than the previous requirement. Each sacrifice increases the spell's area by one order of magnitude. A sacrifice can be substituted by for by 4 creatures whose Int and HD are 5 lower than required, 16 whose Int and HD are 10 lower, and so on.
Dispel checks function as described previously, undoing the effect of the last sacrifice's effect on the spell's area, but the DC of the dispel check is increased by +2 for each sacrifice performed (multiple lower-Int/HD creatures count as a single sacrifice).

As far as 1-level Commoners not being worth much for sacrifices - that's intentional.


I think this version is worse. A level 2 spell can be boosted to a radius of 40,000 miles (getting to geostationary orbit) in only 7 days and it only takes the sacrifice of 21,000 dogs to do this. Level 4 spells take the same number of ogres. The dispel issue is even worse, because it requires fewer to cause a massive impact. These effects either happen too fast for anything but scry and die tactics, or they are easily held in check by dispels. Neither of these options are good for the game, limiting adventures against these effects to one encounter.

I don't think you really understood the purpose behind the mechanics I preposed. The main limiting factor in my preposal was not the sacrifices, but the time required (the caster had to spend 8 hours a day at it, and it took years to cover large areas). You have replaced this with a ritual that could be performed quickly, making these spells cheap in terms of time. Knowing that the big bad is going to be there 8 hours a day also makes the plot work better.
The sacrifices were a mechanic to limit the utility use of these type of effects, rather than be a limiting factor in their plot use. It was meant to be a fluff thing to spawn plot hooks as much as anything else. ie, snatchers have taken the princess as a sacrifice, or even just to paint EVIL in big red letters on the big bad.
The gem could also have numerous requirements on it including being not freely available or certain gems being limited to a specific radius, while also being a single point of failure that is vulnerable to any class (Good for stories). By replacing it with a standard effect it becomes freely available and requires spellcasters to deal with it.

I can see where you are coming from with not wanting commoners to be particularly powerful sacrifices, but currently they are less valuable than dogs. Going back to the fluff point, half the purpose of the sacrifice was so that the big bad can sacrifice whole villages to this effect, emphisising their EVILZ. Conquering villages to start up puppy farms doesn't have quite the same impact :smalltongue:.



Excellent! Should I increase the enlargement even further, do you think?

Not as a simple effect. In retrospect, while the enlargement preposed is not game breaking, it is a bit uninteresting. I might make it allow you to enlarge the effect up to 10 times, but each increase increases casting time by a full round. Even this I am a bit dubious on though.

While I agree that these sort of megaspells should exist (current earth shattering magic is disappointing in terms of scale, except druids), I don't think regular spell slots are the way to do it, even metamagiced. Each spell should require days of crafting by high level casters, requiring components from all corners of the plane, untouched by the astral plane or extradimensional spaces. They certainly should not be the result of 5 mins in the morning and then 4 seconds to unleash.



I may not have made the instructions as clear as I should. A greater invisibility made to be permanent, with no other modifications, would require 12 hours to cast and 25 spellcasters all sacrificing a fourth-level spell slot. 8 clerics could make a 1st-level spell whose duration is measured in rounds permanent (actually, six could do it), but no spells higher than that.
Casting time = 30 minutes x spell level x number of modifications
Number of ritual participants = 1 + (spell level x number of modifications)
With cantrips counting as 1/2 spell level (I should've added that note.) So making a 9th-level buff with duration expressed in rounds and range of personal applying permanently to an ally would require 64 spellcasters expending a 9th level slot and taking 31.5 hours to cast.

The creation of a permanently invisible assassin sounds like a good days work. Bearing in mind that dragons are hugely rich and live a very long time, they could pick up a huge number of effects.
This actually just seems to add a new branch to the christmas tree of magic characters have to carry around, only this is vulnerable to dispel magic rather than just disjunction. It seems like the wrong direction to go.

Hope that clarifies. :smallsmile:

[ezkajii]

Okay, so we nerf it to only expand by multiplying x5, and remove the option to sacrifice lower-HD/Int creatures in larger numbers. (Although honestly where are you getting 21,000 dogs without anyone noticing?) If the issue is it expanding too fast, then keeping the dispel option the way it is is a good idea - it gives some way to counter the rapid expanse, and future expansion is just as difficult as it would be anyway.

As far as the purpose, I didn't intend for this to be a strict adaptation of your proposal, but merely inspired by it. I'm getting some mixed messages here, as well - you say the main limiting factor was the time required, but down below you indicate casting time is completely trivial (w/ regard to the ritualized spell). I deliberately increased the speed of the expansion because you had mentioned it would take way too long to get coverage, but now you're extolling those same virtues in your proposal; I'm very confused.
As far as the commoners go; starting puppy farms to sacrifice by the thousand into a spell effect may not seem dramatic or evil to you, but I think a lot of people would take it that way.

The War spell metamagic feat is not intended to be 'earth-shattering', just to do a little more neatly what the original War spell template was doing thematically. As effectively a super-widen, I don't think it needs to have complicated extra casting requirements, nor is it intended to be used as a plot point - just a handy utility for large scale battlemages.

I think you're missing the huge requirement of having other casters all cooperate to the same end. While an assassin's guild could theoretically all pool together to make one permanently-invisible assassin per day for a while, it would require a large number of members of high enough level to do so. Also please note that permanent spells are still vulnerable to dispel; a faerie fire/glitterdust/invisibility purge/illusion purge followed by a simple dispel would ruin the assassin's day.
Same with dragons. They're old as dirt, yes, so they have plenty of time, but they'd have to be raising entire cabals of powerful spellcasters to be amping themselves up significantly - that's a hook in its own right.

[ace rooster]

Okay, so we nerf it to only expand by multiplying x5, and remove the option to sacrifice lower-HD/Int creatures in larger numbers. (Although honestly where are you getting 21,000 dogs without anyone noticing?) If the issue is it expanding too fast, then keeping the dispel option the way it is is a good idea - it gives some way to counter the rapid expanse, and future expansion is just as difficult as it would be anyway.


x5 growth would slow things down by about a third, meaning the effect will either stop growing or engulf the plane in ten days. Either way the campaign has ended.

This problem is inherent in geometric growth, and fiddling with the numbers are not going to remove it. Requiring more powerful sacrifices to power it is simply going to cause it to rapidly stall. My original suggestion was not geometric, nor did it require arbitrarily powerful sacrifices. The growth was limited by the int of available sacrifices.

The problem I have with dispel working is that it effectively makes dispel super long range. Somebody on one side of the effect (who could be thousands of miles away from the center) will feel the benefit of somebody casting dispel on the opposite side, despite the dispel not being even close to within range of any point of the line of effect between source and the original target, including either end point. That a single basic dispel can (and will) push the effect back thousands of kilometers doesn't feel right. I certainly don't like to include effects in my game that are not massively game breaking only becase there is a magic bullet fix to them.



As far as the purpose, I didn't intend for this to be a strict adaptation of your proposal, but merely inspired by it. I'm getting some mixed messages here, as well - you say the main limiting factor was the time required, but down below you indicate casting time is completely trivial (w/ regard to the ritualized spell). I deliberately increased the speed of the expansion because you had mentioned it would take way too long to get coverage, but now you're extolling those same virtues in your proposal; I'm very confused.
As far as the commoners go; starting puppy farms to sacrifice by the thousand into a spell effect may not seem dramatic or evil to you, but I think a lot of people would take it that way.


There is a big difference between spending a day granting a permanent buff to a creature that could already be hugely powerful (amplifying the power of the spell), and spending 8 hours a day for a year on a stand alone effect. A 24 hour casting time prevents combat use, but it might as well be a standard action if the pace of the action is measured in weeks. It is certainly not enough time for adventurers to mobilise against you. I was aiming for a 100 year timescale for affecting the whole plane, though this could be accelerated with abundant powerful sacrifices.

I wasn't sure how you wanted the area to expand. Your wording was ambiguous, so I was asking for which of the following interpretations was correct. None of them produces results I am happy with though.

1) standard area->2x standard area (root 2 increase in radius) ->3x standard area (root 3 increase in radius) -> 4x standard area (double radius) ->...
This is very slow (and I assume where you got that I think it was too slow), taking 30 years to get to 100x radius

2) standard area-> 2x standard radius (4x area) -> 3x standard radius (9x area) -> 4x standard radius (16x area) -> ...
This is less slow, but the front still only moves at less than 2 miles a year for a 20' radius spell, and never accelerates at all. At this rate plane covering effects will not occur within the lifetime of a dragon

3) standard area ->2x standard area (root 2 increase in radius) -> 4x standard area (double radius) ->8x standard area (2root 2 radius) -> 16x standard area (4x radius)
This takes a while to get going, but only takes 20 days to increase the radius by a factor of 1000. In other words, in two months the radius has increased by a factor of a billion. Starting in a reasonably remote area, between someone noticing and the effect covering the plane would be less than a month. This strikes me as too fast.

4)standard area ->2x radius -> 4x radius -> 8x radius ->16x radius
This grows by a factor of a billion every month. There is a window of about two weeks to deal with this sort of growth.

You replaced it with
5)standard area ->10x radius ->100x radius ->1000x radius
Between somebody noticing and the world ending you probably have about 4 days.


Anyway, you haven't answered my question, what do you actually want this to do? Is this for wards, or actually affecting the whole plane? Are you wanting this for big bad use as a campaign hook, or some other purpose? Currently I am just going on the title, and trying to build something balanced that can shape the world. For it to not be over powered it has to work in a reasonable timescale, giving plenty of time for a reaction against any change. It also needs to be vulnerable, but in a way that can be defended, as otherwise it will be too hard to prevent changes, or too hard to make them. In particular the effect cannot need to be defended at every point, as otherwise the only way to make it work is to already control the entire plane, which is not viable (this is where dispels being able to affect the whole effect are a problem).



The War spell metamagic feat is not intended to be 'earth-shattering', just to do a little more neatly what the original War spell template was doing thematically. As effectively a super-widen, I don't think it needs to have complicated extra casting requirements, nor is it intended to be used as a plot point - just a handy utility for large scale battlemages.


I am always a bit reluctant to give more free stuff to casters, especially for effects that the PCs will never have need of. 'setting' feats can have as complicated a mechanic as you like, with the understanding that you will never actually need to use it. I am irked that earth shattering magic is non existant, but it is non existant because PCs do not need it.



I think you're missing the huge requirement of having other casters all cooperate to the same end. While an assassin's guild could theoretically all pool together to make one permanently-invisible assassin per day for a while, it would require a large number of members of high enough level to do so. Also please note that permanent spells are still vulnerable to dispel; a faerie fire/glitterdust/invisibility purge/illusion purge followed by a simple dispel would ruin the assassin's day.
Same with dragons. They're old as dirt, yes, so they have plenty of time, but they'd have to be raising entire cabals of powerful spellcasters to be amping themselves up significantly - that's a hook in its own right.

Similacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) says hi. Casters without a few copies of themselves or more powerful mages are doing it wrong :smalltongue:.



Hope that clarifies

[ezkajii]

x5 growth would slow things down by about a third, meaning the effect will either stop growing or engulf the plane in ten days. Either way the campaign has ended.

"Ended" may be a bit of an exaggeration, as without metamagic reduction tricks, you're limited to third level spells with this feat.


This problem is inherent in geometric growth, and fiddling with the numbers are not going to remove it. Requiring more powerful sacrifices to power it is simply going to cause it to rapidly stall. My original suggestion was not geometric, nor did it require arbitrarily powerful sacrifices. The growth was limited by the int of available sacrifices.

Ok, I see now that your sacrifice method involved larger numbers of low-HD creatures. I prefer a method that requires powerful spell effects to require powerful creatures sacrificed to it. I think that's just a difference in approach. As far as geometric growth, that's not a term I'm familiar with, but the wording in your version is vague to where the way it is first described makes it sound as if the spread's radius increases by the original radius (20ft-rad, 40ft, 60ft, 80ft) but later you state that it is more akin to multiple castings of the spell (in which case, what advantage does it have over simply casting the spell multiple times, except for the permanence?). How exactly is it intended to function?


The problem I have with dispel working is that it effectively makes dispel super long range. Somebody on one side of the effect (who could be thousands of miles away from the center) will feel the benefit of somebody casting dispel on the opposite side, despite the dispel not being even close to within range of any point of the line of effect between source and the original target, including either end point. That a single basic dispel can (and will) push the effect back thousands of kilometers doesn't feel right. I certainly don't like to include effects in my game that are not massively game breaking only becase there is a magic bullet fix to them.

That makes sense; I'm thinking, keep the dispel magic function the same, but it only works if cast on the spell well. Does that seem reasonable?


I was aiming for a 100 year timescale for affecting the whole plane, though this could be accelerated with abundant powerful sacrifices.

Oh, wow, yeah, I was picturing something more along the lines of 1 year, tops. 100 years is beyond the scope of most campaigns, I would imagine. Any idea on how to get it to simple expand mathematically so that it encompasses the plane (around 50,000,000 ft radius) in around one year, assuming a 20ft-radius to start?


Anyway, you haven't answered my question, what do you actually want this to do? Is this for wards, or actually affecting the whole plane? Are you wanting this for big bad use as a campaign hook, or some other purpose?

I didn't have a specific "function" in mind, I just liked the idea of powerful spellcasters being able to permanently alter their environments on a grand scale. It's less about wards and threats than it is about making the world the way you want it to be.


Similacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) says hi. Casters without a few copies of themselves or more powerful mages are doing it wrong :smalltongue:.

Without going epic, the strongest you're gonna be able to make a simulacrum of yourself is only going to be able to cast 5th-level spells. Presumably you could abuse simulacrum by duplicating a creature with powerful innate spellcasting ability, but even so there's a hefty XP cost to do so.

[ace rooster]

"Ended" may be a bit of an exaggeration, as without metamagic reduction tricks, you're limited to third level spells with this feat.



Ok, I see now that your sacrifice method involved larger numbers of low-HD creatures. I prefer a method that requires powerful spell effects to require powerful creatures sacrificed to it. I think that's just a difference in approach. As far as geometric growth, that's not a term I'm familiar with, but the wording in your version is vague to where the way it is first described makes it sound as if the spread's radius increases by the original radius (20ft-rad, 40ft, 60ft, 80ft) but later you state that it is more akin to multiple castings of the spell (in which case, what advantage does it have over simply casting the spell multiple times, except for the permanence?). How exactly is it intended to function?


Geometric growth means that over a certain timescale you will get a doubling of the effect. The down side to this is that the rate of growth of the effect will double over the same timescale. The problem with this is that once the effect is established it is already moving increadably quickly.

As for how my version was supposed to grow, for a 20' spell the radius was supposed to increase by 20' per day for the first month (assuming int 1+ sacrifices). The caster can then choose to power up the effect, increasing the rate of growth of the radius to 40' per day, but requiring int 2 sacrifices. After the second month the caster can choose to power it up again, increasing the rate of growth to 80' per day, int 3 required. Month 4, 160' and int 4. month 5,320' and int 5... Month 10, 10240' (about 2 miles per day), and int 10. If you have large numbers of drow available to sacrifice then you could keep increasing the requirements to int 12, causing the effect to grow 40,000' per day (8 miles, taking 3 years to cover your plane). While the growth rate could in theory keep doubling, (which would make this geometric), there will be a pratical limit to the sacrifices available. The important point is that the caster can choose not to speed up the growth, if they do not have more powerful sacrifices, but the effect will still keep growing.

Dispel on the origin should work fine, but once somebody has line of effect to the origin and is within range they should have many options for shutting it down. Making the effect behave like multiple effects with regard to dispel magic was supposed to prevent locality breaking (short range spells on local effects should not have direct large scale effects), while still letting dispel do something. I liked the image of a line of casters constantly casting dispels to hold back the tide from the boundries of a city, but maybe I've just played creeper world (http://www.kongregate.com/games/whiteboardwar/creeper-world-3-abraxis) too much.



That makes sense; I'm thinking, keep the dispel magic function the same, but it only works if cast on the spell well. Does that seem reasonable?



Oh, wow, yeah, I was picturing something more along the lines of 1 year, tops. 100 years is beyond the scope of most campaigns, I would imagine. Any idea on how to get it to simple expand mathematically so that it encompasses the plane (around 50,000,000 ft radius) in around one year, assuming a 20ft-radius to start?



I didn't have a specific "function" in mind, I just liked the idea of powerful spellcasters being able to permanently alter their environments on a grand scale. It's less about wards and threats than it is about making the world the way you want it to be.



Without going epic, the strongest you're gonna be able to make a simulacrum of yourself is only going to be able to cast 5th-level spells. Presumably you could abuse simulacrum by duplicating a creature with powerful innate spellcasting ability, but even so there's a hefty XP cost to do so.

There is a hefty xp cost, but having a cabal that can make any low level buff permanent as well as producing permanently summoned creatures while you are not there is powerful. Bearing in mind that each costs less xp than permanent arcane sight, and with enough you can grant arcane sight to everyone for free, the xp cost is probably worth it.

[ezkajii]

New versions!


Worldshaping Spell [Metamagic]
You can anchor a spell effect into a powerful magical device known as a spell well.
Prerequisites: Earthbound Spell, Extend Spell, Widen Spell; must be able to cast permanency
Benefit: Any spell whose area is an emanation or spread centered on a point in space, which has a duration other than instantaneous, and which does not offer a saving throw can become a worldshaping spell. A worldshaping spell has its casting time is increased to one hour per unmodified spell level (or the spell's original casting time, if longer), it gains an additional XP cost equal to 500xp per unmodified spell level, and its duration changes to permanent. When you cast a worldshaping spell, you also create a spell well, a special magical effect coexisting in a five foot radius from the center of the effect. This spell well acts as the anchoring point for the spell and can be used to fuel the spell's growth.
Sacrifices:
Living creatures can be sacrificed into the spell well (living or not) to increase the spell's area of effect, in a ritual requiring 1 hour and special material components costing 500gp per spell level, which are consumed at the conclusion of the ritual. A suitable sacrifice is any creature whose Sacrifice Score equals or exceeds the current Sacrifice Requirement. A creature's sacrifice score is equal to its Intelligence score multiplied by its HD. The base sacrifice requirement for a spell is equal to 3 per unmodified spell level (or 1 for cantrips/orisons). Only one sacrifice may be made per day. Once a sacrifice is made, the worldshaping spell's sacrifice requirement increases by 1. Each sacrifice increases the spell's radius to the next-highest value in the following table (for spells whose initial radius is between the listed values, use the next lowest value).


5ft
10
20
40
60
80
100
150
200
250


300
350
400
450
500
600
700
800
900
1000


1200
1400
1600
1800
2000
2500
3000
3500
4000
4500


1 mile
1.5mi
2mi
2.5
3
3.5
4
4.5
5
6


7
8
9
10
15
20
25
30
35
40


45
50
60
70
80
90
100
120
140
160


180
200
225
250
275
300
325
350
375
400...


Beyond this table, simply increase the spell's radius by 25 miles per sacrifice. Once the plane is completely engulfed by the spell's effect, no further sacrifices can be made, unless the area is reduced (see below).
Destroying the Spell Well: A successful dispel effect cast upon the spell well will reduce the total area by an amount equal to the increase gained by the most recent sacrifice, but does not reduce the sacrifice requirement value. The DC to dispel a spell well is increased by 1 for each sacrifice made into it, up to a maximum of +10DC; beyond that, it increases by +1 for every 10 sacrifices. A disjunction spell cast on the spell well itself will unravel the spell well and end the entire spell's effect. The spell well itself can be destroyed manually as well; it has AC 20 (10, -1 size, -5 Dexterity, +15 deflection), hit points equal to spell level x number of sacrifices made, hardness 10 x spell level, and immunity to acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic. For this reason the spell well is often very well-defended.
A worldshaping spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than normal.

Ritualized Spell [Metamagic]
You've learned to greatly increase the power of your spells by dedicating more resources to their casting.
Prerequisite: Cooperative Spell
Benefit: You may increase the effectiveness of a spell by expanding upon and formalizing its casting. A ritualized spell's casting time changes to one half-hour per unmodified spell level per modification and requires additional participants equal to the unmodified spell level times the number of modifications made to the spell. (A participant is defined as a willing spellcaster who possessese the Cooperative Spell feat and is capable of casting spells of the type [arcane or divine] and level of the spell being ritualized. All participants expend a spell slot of the same level upon completion of the casting.) For example, a fireball spell modified in two different ways would require 3 hours to cast and 7 ritual participants. A ritualized spell can be modified in the following ways.
Duration: A single modification of this type increases the spell's duration by one step along the following path:
duration measured in rounds -> measured in minutes -> hours -> days -> weeks -> months
Range: A single modification of this type increases the spell's maximum range by two steps along the following path:
range of personal -> touch -> medium -> long -> 1000ft plus 100ft/level -> 1 mile/level -> 10 miles/level -> 100 miles/level -> unlimited range
Area: A single modification of this type increases the spell's area by 5 times its original value. (Thus, one area modification results in a spell with 6x the area, two results in 11x the area, and so on.)
Effect: A single modification of this type increases the result of any variable numeric effects by one step along the following path:
normal -> empowered (1.5x) -> doubled -> maximized -> maximized and doubled -> maximized and tripled

A ritualized spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level.

[ezkajii]

Are those new versions a little more reasonable?