Favored Soul spell options

[Falcon X]

I want a Favored Soul with a little more "Paladinish" feel and selection to it's spells. That is, I'd like him to have some smites and abjurations (maybe healing...).

I'm thinking that I'll change his potential spells known completely away from Sorcerer, and into Cleric + Paladin lists (+domain spells). Does that sound reasonable/balanced?

[Hyena]

When you take away favored soul's sorcerer spells and give it cleric spells, you pretty much get a cleric.

[Jlooney]

When you take away favored soul's sorcerer spells and give it cleric spells, you pretty much get a cleric.


^this

So basically a worse cleric? A paladin with no access to heavy armor and half the hp. Sounds solid to me.

[hawklost]

When you take away favored soul's sorcerer spells and give it cleric spells, you pretty much get a cleric.

except with Metamagic and limited spell list.

So they lose Spell list to gain metamagic ability, sounds decent enough that way.

[Jlooney]

Metamagic is the only thing a soccer has going for it. If you give it to a paladin/cleric you might as well dumpster the whole class.

[hawklost]

Metamagic is the only thing a soccer has going for it. If you give it to a paladin/cleric you might as well dumpster the whole class.

I am not even sure who you are responding too.

If it is me, I am saying, giving up the ability to choose any spell any day for a limited number of uses (plus the rest of Favored Soul abilities) and using Cleric/Paladin list (probably more pali list) for the use of Metamagic makes sense.

It doesn't give the player smite at will like Pali
It doesn't give the player any spell any day like a Cleric
It doesn't give them any paliden divine Grace or other Pali Features
Nor any Cleric domain abilities

All it does it give the Sorc spells from a better list related to Clericy/Paladiny stuff.

I might remove the free extra spells but that is all.

[SharkForce]

I want a Favored Soul with a little more "Paladinish" feel and selection to it's spells. That is, I'd like him to have some smites and abjurations (maybe healing...).

I'm thinking that I'll change his potential spells known completely away from Sorcerer, and into Cleric + Paladin lists (+domain spells). Does that sound reasonable/balanced?

well that depends.

if you start from the assumption that a sorcerer is balanced, then this will be noticeably more powerful and is probably not so balanced. mostly because the sorcerer spell list is a gutted version of the wizard spell list, in an effort to compensate for the power of metamagic.

now, i'm not sold on metamagic being *quite* that powerful. however, wizard is probably also imo the most powerful class in the game at higher levels, with the possible exception of druid if you get to level 20, so less powerful than a wizard is probably right.

furthermore, from my perspective, casters are generally more powerful than non-casters, with sorcerers being on the low end of the caster classes, so more or less in the middle of the pack... so from my perspective, unless you're going to include a general boost of everyone, boosting the sorcerer spell list in that way is simply too much. (honestly, i'm already feeling like the favoured soul is stronger than either of the other two sorcerer paths).

so... my gut feeling: unless you're going to be making a lot of changes, the full cleric and paladin spell list is going to be too much. you'd need to take out a bunch of spells to make it work, probably including all summoning spells.

[Easy_Lee]

Don't remove the free extra spells. Just swapping the Cleric and sorcerer spell lists, in theory, should be balanced. You could run into problems with certain spells being extremely powerful with metamagic applied to them. For example, twinned true resurrection could double the number of affected targets without doubling the cost. However, you give up enough Cleric features that you may overall be weaker as a result of doing this. Careful how you proceed.

[Falcon X]

Wow, I really like how this seems to have people arguing for both underpowered and overpowered.

I guess I was assuming that Cleric Spells wouldn't be as strong as Sorcerer spells, but didn't think about the implications (Twined True Resurrection and such). For clarity, I did mean to remove the Sorcerer spell list and only allow the Cleric and Paladin Spells. On the other side, it would be gutting the Paladin, if you didn't get a full spell progression.


How about this: Only allow Cleric + Paladin Spells + Domain spells to choose from. Make Divine Smite into a lvl 1 spell (to make up for losing Improved Divine Smite or a 3rd attack), then go off the Spell Point system (More divine smites, but can only use 1 of each high level spell slot per day. Thus offsetting metamagic abuse)?

EDIT: Give divine smite at level 11, instead of as a level 1 spell. Thus it burns spell slots, but still lets you do a "3rd attack" at the level martial classes would get it.

[Jlooney]

Imho you should just play it as is or play a cleric or paladin. The limits on the classes are here for a reason.

[ChubbyRain]

Don't remove the free extra spells. Just swapping the Cleric and sorcerer spell lists, in theory, should be balanced. You could run into problems with certain spells being extremely powerful with metamagic applied to them. For example, twinned true resurrection could double the number of affected targets without doubling the cost. However, you give up enough Cleric features that you may overall be weaker as a result of doing this. Careful how you proceed.

I've actually found that Metamagic and the Draconic Sorcerer works way better with the Druid or Cleric spell list. Metamagic is good with the sorcerer spell list but it is worth not going wizard if you take druid or cleric.

Keep them as Cha arcane casters and they have their own little fun thing. Actually in order to get the Sorcerer out of the Wizard's shadow I would allow a first level sorcerer to choose any full spell list (bard, cleric, druid, or Sorcerer), that is their spell list for the class.

[Easy_Lee]

I've actually found that Metamagic and the Draconic Sorcerer works way better with the Druid or Cleric spell list. Metamagic is good with the sorcerer spell list but it is worth not going wizard if you take druid or cleric.

Keep them as Cha arcane casters and they have their own little fun thing. Actually in order to get the Sorcerer out of the Wizard's shadow I would allow a first level sorcerer to choose any full spell list (bard, cleric, druid, or Sorcerer), that is their spell list for the class.

The sorcerer list is small in part because it's iconic, but in larger part because of their metamagic and flexible casting. If sorcerers have larger pools of spells, or are able to twin certain powerful spells such as foresight, then they suddenly become much more powerful. A savvy player might notice these kinds of spells, so his DM would end up in a position of banning individual spells on an as-needed basis. That may be fine, I'm just saying that it's something to think about.

[MrStabby]

I have never found sorcerers to be underpowered - at least not past level 6. Metamagic and things like the damage boost to their element make them very strong thematically and able to have a huge amount of burst damage. With the right spell list they are pretty versatile as well - converting uneeded spells into sorcery points and back into the level that has the one thing they need - this is where i think the biggest boost could be.

It may be due to different DMs, campaigns and party composition but they seem to be more powerful and more fun than warlocks for example.

This said I would have no problem with swapping spell lists about as long as it still left the sorcerer as a specialist. I wouldn't let them chose from ALL cleric spells for example but I would let them pick a theme and work through the lists (say Storm cleric theme could pick from any lightning damage spells from cleric, druid, wizard or paladin list; Nature would be all of the growth/plant/animal spells from the druid list and so on).

[Falcon X]

Sorcerers have definitely been effective in my game. We have only been playing levels 1-5 so far, but the Sorcerer is outshining the rest (Paladin, Bard, Warlock). Of course, the girl who plays our sorcerer is easily our sharpest and most creative gamer...

I'm actually getting sold on the idea of sticking to a Sorcerer list. I think what I really want is a smite or two, or something that can feel like it's the same flavor. I'm tempted to just give it Divine Smite as a spell, but that might be pushing some boundaries...

[Easy_Lee]

Sorcerers have definitely been effective in my game. We have only been playing levels 1-5 so far, but the Sorcerer is outshining the rest (Paladin, Bard, Warlock). Of course, the girl who plays our sorcerer is easily our sharpest and most creative gamer...

I'm actually getting sold on the idea of sticking to a Sorcerer list. I think what I really want is a smite or two, or something that can feel like it's the same flavor. I'm tempted to just give it Divine Smite as a spell, but that might be pushing some boundaries...

It sounds like what you want is some kind of weapon attack spell. I believe a few of those have been home brewed, and they can certainly be balanced against other spells.

A cantrip could, say, as an action make a weapon attack and add a d4 worth of elemental damage, scaling up as you level. That wouldn't be too strong in the face of extra attack, and could add some flavor.

Smites are really the paladin thing, and I wouldn't take that niche away from them. But having access to some spells like ensnaring strike probably wouldn't hurt if your DM is cool with it.

[Tenmujiin]

Why not just make a domain list that invludes smite spells?

Starting from the war domain:

Smite Domain


searing smite, thunderous smite, wrathful smite (Pick two)
magic weapon, branding smite
crusader’s mantle, blinding smite
stoneskin, staggering smite
banishing smite, destructive wave


Edit: you could do the same thing with your domain of choice, replace one spell at each level with a smite, this one is focused on smites though
Edit 2: 2 levels of paladin would get you a similar deal, heavy armor, a fighting style divine smite and first level paladin spells

[Theodoxus]

I've offered up a revised Favored Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?409626-Tweaking-the-Favored-Soul). I could see tweaking the War domain as Tenmujiin suggests, though I'd probably just go with the 2 Pally dip instead.

[Tenmujiin]

I've offered up a revised Favored Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?409626-Tweaking-the-Favored-Soul). I could see tweaking the War domain as Tenmujiin suggests, though I'd probably just go with the 2 Pally dip instead.

I agree about the pally dip btw, with only two levels you don't even have to swear some silly restrictive oath I just figured that the op may prefer to get the smites while remaining single classed.

*disclaimer* Some or all of this post may be a joke, please take it wtih a grain of salt

[Falcon X]

I've offered up a revised Favored Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?409626-Tweaking-the-Favored-Soul). I could see tweaking the War domain as Tenmujiin suggests, though I'd probably just go with the 2 Pally dip instead.
You know what, sometimes the easiest solutions are the best solutions. The idea of multiclassing pretty well slipped my mind, but it works. We would lose Sorcerous recovery and a Spell slot, but you can't get something from nothing, eh?

What is actually going on: One of my players was playing a 3.5 Dread Necromancer. When 5e came out, we reconstructed him as a Paladin of Vengeance. However, the player has always missed his necromancy spells.
So, I'm going to have a chance to reconstruct the character (it's a blessing of the gods, long story) once again, and what I'm going for is a spellcaster with access to necromancy spells, but also Divine Smite.
I'm thinking Favored Soul18/Paladin2 with Death Domain.

I might also let him request Smites or Necromancy spells from the Wizard list, but only with DM approval so I can make sure it's not going to break the Sorcerer or step on the toes of our Cleric.

[Tenmujiin]

You know what, sometimes the easiest solutions are the best solutions. The idea of multiclassing pretty well slipped my mind, but it works. We would lose Sorcerous recovery and a Spell slot, but you can't get something from nothing, eh?

What is actually going on: One of my players was playing a 3.5 Dread Necromancer. When 5e came out, we reconstructed him as a Paladin of Vengeance. However, the player has always missed his necromancy spells.
So, I'm going to have a chance to reconstruct the character (it's a blessing of the gods, long story) once again, and what I'm going for is a spellcaster with access to necromancy spells, but also Divine Smite.
I'm thinking Favored Soul18/Paladin2 with Death Domain.

I might also let him request Smites or Necromancy spells from the Wizard list, but only with DM approval so I can make sure it's not going to break the Sorcerer or step on the toes of our Cleric.

Have you thought of warlock, possibly with a custom pact or spell list (or just pact spell list, say swap the fiend list for some necromancer goodies)? It sounds to me like your player wants a gish with necromancy spells.

[Falcon X]

Have you thought of warlock, possibly with a custom pact or spell list (or just pact spell list, say swap the fiend list for some necromancer goodies)? It sounds to me like your player wants a gish with necromancy spells.
Gish with Necromancy spells sounds pretty close. But Warlock is out of the question, for flavor reasons and team dynamic. Good thought though.