Eidolon Anchoring Harness - Die Hard or Unconscious?

[Yanisa]

Heya,

A quick question a quick google couldn't answer, so I turn to you guys. I recently stumbled on the Eidolon Anchoring Harness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/harness-eidolon-anchoring) and noticed an interesting part:

Any time the eidolon would be forced to return to its home plane (such as when it’s reduced to negative hit points equal to its Constitution score or when its master is rendered unconscious)
Ignoring that summoned creature, like eidolons die at 0 HP or lower (and not at equal to con score), it implies that the Eidolon can stick around even after the point it normally "dies". But when it drops into negative HP, does it go unconscious or can it keep acting like normal like the Die Hard Feat?

[Geddy2112]

An eidolon will not die at 0hp as stated in the summoner entry " Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score"

The harness does not change the state the eidolon is in, it simply means the eidolon stays around for 1 extra turn. The item lets you keep them around long enough to heal, or if the summoner is KO'ed they can be revived quickly without losing the eidolon. If the eidolon is unconsious when the harness activates, it remains unconsious.

[Yanisa]

" Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score"

Wait, that is a rule? I missed that (I blame being a Syntheist) but that seems rather stupid... Especially because of Link Link, how would a normal summoner use Life Link? (Or why.)

Or are there any rules that summoned creature don't go staggered at 0 hp and unconscious at negative hp?

[Geddy2112]

For the syntheist the eidolon is killed when you lose all of your temp HP granted from your eidolon and it reaches zero, so it is different there.
Synthesist has fused link instead of life link, basically the same ability. Keeping your eidolon alive is no different than a druid/rangers animal companion-most eidolons are used as fighters while the summoner supports.

Normal monsters do not die at 0 or neg until they hit neg con, but undead and summons die at 0 hp ". A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again." From the magic section, under conjuration/summoning.

[Yanisa]

For the syntheist the eidolon is killed when you lose all of your temp HP granted from your eidolon and it reaches zero, so it is different there.
Synthesist has fused link instead of life link, basically the same ability. Keeping your eidolon alive is no different than a druid/rangers animal companion-most eidolons are used as fighters while the summoner supports.
With an Eidolon there is no permanent death risk. If it goes unconscious at negative HP that means using Life Link is just sacrificing your own HP to keep a dying Eidolon dying for longer. It doesn't seem to able to act in any meaningful. Also your meat shield is down, guess who is going to get hurt next, which is a good moment to drop HP so your eidolon can be K.O. for another round. Letting it die is most likely beneficial because the next time you summon it return with half it's hp, free healing!

Only if you need the Eidolon on the same day and have a lot of healing at hand it might be useful, I guess?

At least Syntheist Fused Eidolons drop at 0 hp, which means Fused Life Link keeps the eidolon battle ready for as long as you got HP to spare.


Normal monsters do not die at 0 or neg until they hit neg con, but undead and summons die at 0 hp ". A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again." From the magic section, under conjuration/summoning.

But we are talking about rules for being staggered at 0 HP and unconscious at negative HP. I don't see exceptions for those situations under summoned monsters (because normally that cannot happen, Eidolons are an odd case) so I guess there are non. Not a big issue though, but this all seems rather... unpolished, but it's a common PF issue.

[Psyren]

With an Eidolon there is no permanent death risk. If it goes unconscious at negative HP that means using Life Link is just sacrificing your own HP to keep a dying Eidolon dying for longer. It doesn't seem to able to act in any meaningful. Also your meat shield is down, guess who is going to get hurt next, which is a good moment to drop HP so your eidolon can be K.O. for another round. Letting it die is most likely beneficial because the next time you summon it return with half it's hp, free healing!

Bringing it back takes 10 rounds, or 1 round if you burn a slot on summon eidolon, which can be interrupted/countered/blocked/dispelled, and which staples other disadvantages onto your eidolon like being unable to touch warded creatures. Life Link meanwhile takes no action, and you can cast (Quickened) Rejuvenate Eidolon to get it back up (or someone else in the party can heal it) while letting you spend your actions on something else.

[Yanisa]

Bringing it back takes 10 rounds, or 1 round if you burn a slot on summon eidolon, which can be interrupted/countered/blocked/dispelled, and which staples other disadvantages onto your eidolon like being unable to touch warded creatures. Life Link meanwhile takes no action, and you can cast (Quickened) Rejuvenate Eidolon to get it back up (or someone else in the party can heal it) while letting you spend your actions on something else.

Rejuvenate Eidolon is a level 3 spell, so you get it at character level 7 and Quicken is impossible because you don't get 7th lvl spell slots unless you have meta magic reducers, or rods, but thats also all past 7th level... I mostly think from a perspective of a low level party, 3rd level spells still sound like an achievement. (Although my opinions are optimized thanks to this forum, I mean who takes Rejuvenate Eidolon as a spell. :smalltongue:)

The way I see it:
Low level summoners and their parties don't have the resources to bring an close to death Eidolon back into action. And when a single healing spells can do it, most likely you couldn't have used life link anyways.
And at high level I suspect you get too much damage to take the full blow. And if the Eidolon doesn't get overkilled, you couldn't have used life link anyways. And you must be very lucky to get a light overkill.

And perhaps somewhere in that level 7-13 range the damage isn't too high but the healing is strong enough, so Life Link could get a use? I still see it as a rare scenario whereas as a Syntheist I use Fused Link on a daily basis starting at 1st level. (Although as my HP grows I find myself using it less and less... Weird)



Also if eidolons can go unconscious, which is logical rulewise, the harness does become a lot less useful to me. No free die hards for me.

[Psyren]

Rejuvenate Eidolon is a level 3 spell, so you get it at character level 7 and Quicken is impossible because you don't get 7th lvl spell slots unless you have meta magic reducers, or rods, but thats also all past 7th level... I mostly think from a perspective of a low level party, 3rd level spells still sound like an achievement. (Although my opinions are optimized thanks to this forum, I mean who takes Rejuvenate Eidolon as a spell. :smalltongue:)

You're missing my point though - even if it's a standard action to heal the eidolon, that's still faster than the 1 round it would take to re-summon it with the spell (adding the normal summoning disadvantages while doing so) or the 10 rounds it would take to resummon it normally. Worse, your arguments about quickening rejuvenate eidolon apply equally to quickening summon eidolon. So there are in fact times when "save it with life link and heal it" is a better option than "let it die and resummon it."

[Yanisa]

You're missing my point though - even if it's a standard action to heal the eidolon, that's still faster than the 1 round it would take to re-summon it with the spell
If it's a standard action to heal, you most likely couldn't have used life link because you can only use life link when it drops past negative 13 hp. Most healing spells before 7th level don't reliable heal 12 hit points to bring an Eidolon back into the fight in a standard action. You most likely be spending 2 standard actions.

Perhaps at higher level with better healing spells but I dunno the damage and it feels lucky to get your Eidolon in enough minus damage the summoner can soak it without risking it's own life.

[Psyren]

If it's a standard action to heal, you most likely couldn't have used life link because you can only use life link when it drops past negative 13 hp. Most healing spells before 7th level don't reliable heal 12 hit points to bring an Eidolon back into the fight in a standard action. You most likely be spending 2 standard actions.

No - life link is generally used off-turn, because that is generally when a monster is damaging your eidolon enough to kill it. So the sequence goes: (1) you use life link to save the eidolon when it's not your turn, and then (2) your turn comes up, you heal the eidolon, and then it gets to act on your initiative because it's conscious and back in the fight. You would therefore only be spending one standard, on top of which you'd still have your move (unless of course you needed to move within reach of your fallen eidolon), your swift and your immediate to do other things if needed while the eidolon itself would have all its own actions.

Compare to letting it die - your turn rolls around and now you have to spend an entire round bringing it back, which won't take place until the following round. With this strategy, the eidolon is potentially weaker HP-wise, but it gets back in the fight immediately rather than being gone for an additional round.

[Yanisa]

your turn comes up, you heal the eidolon

With what healing spell? The Eidolon is at -12 by this point, perhaps a lucky roll gets it up in 1 standard action, but a bad roll means it will take another standard. There is no reliable way to do it in a single turn.

[Psyren]

With what healing spell? The Eidolon is at -12 by this point, perhaps a lucky roll gets it up in 1 standard action, but a bad roll means it will take another standard. There is no reliable way to do it in a single turn.

1) 1d10+5 is a 40% chance to get it back up with a 1st-level slot, hardly insurmountable odds.
2) At 7th level you do 3d10+7, which has much higher odds.
3) D&D (and by extension PF) is a team game. While other characters can't help you summon the eidolon, they can help you heal it easily. The cleric can channel when or before your turn rolls around for instance, or simply cure it directly, just as they would for any other meatshield, and the eidolon is meanwhile able to act instead of not being present.

So again, there are times when "let it die and resummon" is not the best tactic.

[Yanisa]

1) 1d10+5 is a 40% chance to get it back up with a 1st-level slot, hardly insurmountable odds.
2) At 7th level you do 3d10+7, which has much higher odds.
3) D&D (and by extension PF) is a team game. While other characters can't help you summon the eidolon, they can help you heal it easily. The cleric can channel when or before your turn rolls around for instance, or simply cure it directly, just as they would for any other meatshield, and the eidolon is meanwhile able to act instead of not being present.

So again, there are times when "let it die and resummon" is not the best tactic.

Seriously, we can argue all day and most likely not agree.

I still fail to see how these kinds of scenario's happen daily, or often, or at all. In my eyes Life Link is a rarely used ability and even when you use it, chances are that you can finish the combat without the Eidolon. If you can't, you are better off fleeing. In both cases that means that not using Life Link is as valid as using Life Link, except using Life Link will spend more resources. Why bother risking your own HP (and anyone's spells) when there is no threat or a very large threat? Letting the Eidolon die and resummoning it after resting (thus not in the same combat) seems to the better option except in a very rare case where the Eidolon makes the difference between life and TPK and you can't flee. Or in the other rare case that you need the Eidolon that same day.

It feels like the planets must align in order for Life Link to actually save a combat. I admit I might be wrong on that, but seriously, is it the kind of ability you want to use daily? Doesn't that mean there are other problems, like an overzealous DM putting you in constant high CR battles?

Edit: If Life Link was an ability that keeps the Eidolon in battle, instead of keeping the Eidolon unconscious, it might get better use.
Also doesn't going unconscious mean you are prone? That also not in favor of Life Link...

[Psyren]

Seriously, we can argue all day and most likely not agree.

Well if your stance really is an absolute like "this tool will never be useful, ever, under any circumstances" then yeah, this is probably going to be the case.

Also, remember that Life Link triggers if they would take enough damage to die. This does not necessarily mean it has to happen while they're unconscious/prone/dying. Throw enough damage on there (like an unlucky crit) and they actually can go straight from "positive HP and awake" to "-Con and despawned."

And finally, Life Link Badge is a thing.


It feels like the planets must align in order for Life Link to actually save a combat.

And when they do you'll be glad you have it; that's all I'm saying.

It doesn't even necessarily have to be that combat. If your eidolon gets killed, yes you can resummon it with Summon Eidolon - for min./level. What happens when the next combat is a couple of hours away instead? Or if you only have a few slots left? You can't resummon it normally until the following day. So even using Life Link to keep it around (but unconscious) can be worthwhile, if not for this combat, then for all the others that will happen that day.

[Yanisa]

And when they do you'll be glad you have it; that's all I'm saying.

You right, maybe I am too pessimistic. Or maybe its the wrong mind set. I was comparing it to Fused Link, the variant I tend to use daily because I am the "tank" and take the damage meant for 4 people. :smalltongue: